How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Jack]

Did he? Or did he simply recognize Jesus as God’s divine Son? To call someone “theos” isn’t calling them “God” with a capital “G”...it recognises their “divinity” or “divine authority”, not only an acknowledgment of deity.

Yes He did Aunty! Don't blame us that you can't understand simple English and you want to pretend to be a Greek expert. The WatchTower is leading JW's to Hell Fire. RUN from Kingdom Hell while you can.

 

[David in NJ]

A little knowledge of Greek and its phrasing might be helpful in responding to the various claims made in this post....
Who can forgive sins? Only God has that authority....but he has bestowed that authority on his son. (Matt 28:18)

In the account of the paralysed man whose friends lowered him down to Jesus through the tile on the roof...the account says....
“On perceiving their faith, Jesus said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” Then the scribes and the Pharisees began to ask each other, “Who is this man uttering blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Jesus discerned what they were thinking, and he said in reply, “Why do you entertain such thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier—to say: ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say: ‘Stand up and walk’? But that you may come to realize that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralyzed man—“I say to you, stand up, and take your bed, and go to your home.” Immediately, the man stood up before them, picked up his bed, and went home glorifying God.” (Luke 5:20-25 NCB)

Yes, Jesus was authorised to forgives sins on his Father’s behalf.

“Do miracles”? Even the apostles could do miracles....they did so by the power of God’s Holy Spirit, like Jesus did, after his baptism.

Be worshipped? Jesus did not receive worship.....the word in Greek is “pro·sky·neʹo which can mean “worship” when directed to Jehovah, or it is translated as “obeisance” when used towards a human. Jesus was a human....and obeisance was common in Bible times, showing respect.

This word is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Matt 18:26) as well as the act satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matt 4:8-9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to satan and made himself the Devil’s servant. But Jesus refused.

This is why you cannot rely on translation alone to give you the truth of the Bible....go back to the original language and see what it means to its intended audience....and how it is used in context.

Another example is what the magi offered to the child whom they recognised to be the future “King of the Jews”.....they did not give the infant “worship” as a god, but “obeisance” as royalty, out of respect. They were Babylonian astrologers who already worshipped a multitude of gods.


Did he? Or did he simply recognize Jesus as God’s divine Son? To call someone “theos” isn’t calling them “God” with a capital “G”...it recognises their “divinity” or “divine authority”, not only an acknowledgment of deity.

UH-OH Aunty

 

[GodsGrace]

Which in Greek reads with phrasing that is not well translated into English.....
“awaiting the happy hope and manifestation of the glory of the great God and of Savior of us of Christ Jesus“....This does not say “our great God and Savior” as if they were the same person....in Greek two separate persons are acknowledged there....there is not three.


No...not one and the same at all.

Jesus clearly identified his Father as his God.
To Mary Magdalene he said after his resurrection....
John 20:17....
“Jesus then said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” (NCB)
Was Jesus just speaking about his fleshly status? Then please explain Rev 3:12 when he had already returned to his Father in heaven. He calls his Father “my God”, four times in that one verse.

Maybe in English it sounds like what you want to believe....but the Bible was not written in English.
Greek phrasing is again like the previous verse you used in Titus.

“having obtained faith in righteousness of the God of us and of Savior Jesus Christ”

It’s not saying what you want it to....two separate individuals....and the third person is again missing.


What a shame your church doesn’t follow that rule.

You know a lot Auntie Jane.
You know Greek inside out....this is great.
You know I have a church....

And nice to know the bible was not written in English.
I'll remember to write that down.

And, just a BTW, I can read the bible in 3 languages...so when I make a statement on a translation,
I NEVER use just the English -which is a rather poor language for biblical translation...devoid of so much richness.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes He did Aunty! Don't blame us that you can't understand simple English and you want to pretend to be a Greek expert. The WatchTower is leading JW's to Hell Fire. RUN from Kingdom Hell while you can.

Did you not know Jack?
@Auntie Jane is an expert in the Greek language...
gosh, she might even speak it!

And also, did you not know that "the Greek" can be twisted to mean whatever one wants it to mean!!

Oh my!
LOL

 

[MonoBiblical]

And also, did you not know that "the Greek" can be twisted to mean whatever one wants it to mean!!

No, it can't. It has complex rules.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it can't. It has complex rules.

Yes it can...just like verses can be twisted.
Koine Greek has complex rules?


EVERY language has rules...
but even better than rules is just knowing how to speak a language.

For instance, let's take the following:
John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


What does HE TAKES AWAY mean?

 

[Aunty Jane]

You know a lot Auntie Jane.
You know Greek inside out....this is great.
You know I have a church....

And nice to know the bible was not written in English.
I'll remember to write that down.

And, just a BTW, I can read the bible in 3 languages...so when I make a statement on a translation,
I NEVER use just the English -which is a rather poor language for biblical translation...devoid of so much richness.

Well, thank you for addressing nothing in my post, but distracting from your lack of response with sarcasm instead.....very useful....and BTW, very telling.

You have heard of online resources I assume? You know...interlinear bibles where you can see word for word translation and compare. Other resources like Concordances where you can research all manner of things biblical.....available to all of us if we bother to consult them. Have you bothered?

You have a church? Which one would that be out of the multitude of choices? It’s easy to see that you are Catholic at heart, so do you attend a Catholic Church and if not, why not? The Reformation was a travesty to Catholics....are you now part of that travesty?

What three languages can you read? Hebrew, Greek and English? They would at least be useful for a Bible student....

What I share here is what I have taken decades of time to research....anyone can do this with the resources we have today....this is why there is no excuse for ignorance, or for blindly accepting doctrines that were formulated centuries ago by an apostate church that has today morphed into a multitude of “weeds”....but, as Jesus said, the “wheat” are still here, doing what Jesus asked them to do.....preach about God’s Kingdom, something that was to be done until “the end”, which is fast approaching. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20) He promised that he would be with his disciples in this work.....where are the churches fulfilling the “great commission”...on a global scale?

What is it “the end” of GG? Can you tell me?
What is God’s Kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray for?......and what is its purpose?
How does it “come”? What was the Lord’s Prayer all about?

Let’s draw on your knowledge......how would you answer those questions?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, thank you for addressing nothing in my post, but distracting from your lack of response with sarcasm instead.....very useful....and BTW, very telling.

You have heard of online resources I assume? You know...interlinear bibles where you can see word for word translation and compare. Other resources like Concordances where you can research all manner of things biblical.....available to all of us if we bother to consult them. Have you bothered?

I'll try to remember to look those references up one fine day.

You have a church? Which one would that be out of the multitude of choices? It’s easy to see that you are Catholic at heart, so do you attend a Catholic Church and if not, why not? The Reformation was a travesty to Catholics....are you now part of that travesty?

What three languages can you read? Hebrew, Greek and English? They would at least be useful for a Bible student....

No, i'm a rather ignorant person...
I only speak English, Italian, Spanish and possibly, according to some, a 4th language.

And you will NOT be learning Greek by using Strongs.

What I share here is what I have taken decades of time to research....anyone can do this with the resources we have today....this is why there is no excuse for ignorance, or for blindly accepting doctrines that were formulated centuries ago by an apostate church that has today morphed into a multitude of “weeds”....but, as Jesus said, the “wheat” are still here, doing what Jesus asked them to do.....preach about God’s Kingdom, something that was to be done until “the end”, which is fast approaching. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20) He promised that he would be with his disciples in this work.....where are the churches fulfilling the “great commission”...on a global scale?

Oh,,but I've already confessed to being ignorant Auntie Jane.
YOU believe the end is fast approaching?
Interesting.
Jesus said we cannot know the time but only our Father in heaven. Mark 13

What is it “the end” of GG? Can you tell me?
What is God’s Kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray for?......and what is its purpose?
How does it “come”? What was the Lord’s Prayer all about?

Let’s draw on your knowledge......how would you answer those questions?

I wouldn't answer those questions.
Because YOU already know EVERYTHING.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Koine Greek has complex rules?

Yes, and rules that aren't widely known as well.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Yes it can...just like verses can be twisted.
Koine Greek has complex rules?


EVERY language has rules...
but even better than rules is just knowing how to speak a language.

For instance, let's take the following:
John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


What does HE TAKES AWAY mean?

He was actually taking them away in a continuous sense; but the implication of getting burned away seems to be there. The word may mean something else. Perhaps, prune works best, but you can't twist it any which way. Only the implication being pruning is supported by the lexicons that I use.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and rules that aren't widely known as well.

Yes, and rules that aren't widely known as well.

Two comments:
1. Koine Greek is one of the easiest languages to learn. Classical Greek is more complex.
How do I know?
From someone that speaks Koine Greek and teaches it.


2. You did not reply to my question which was meant to show how using Strong's for Greek is of no help.

Here it is again:

For instance, let's take the following:
John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


What does HE TAKES AWAY mean?

 

[MonoBiblical]

1. Koine Greek is one of the easiest languages to learn. Classical Greek is more complex.
How do I know?

Courtesy laugh.

2. You did not reply to my question which was meant to show how using Strong's for Greek is of no help.

Thayer's wasn't much help either.

What does HE TAKES AWAY mean?

My guess is that it means, He is pruning.

 

[GodsGrace]

He was actually taking them away in a continuous sense; but the implication of getting burned away seems to be there. The word may mean something else. Perhaps, prune works best, but you can't twist it any which way. Only the implication being pruning is supported by the lexicons that I use.

Thanks for the reply.
"Taking them away in a continuous sense"
not sure what this means.

As to pruning...it cannot mean pruning because Jesus speaks about pruning in the very next sentence and the outcome is different:

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Every branch that DOES NOT bear fruit, God takes away. (God removes from the Vine).

THEN it goes on to speak about pruning:

Every branch that DOES bear fruit, God PRUNES so that it will produce even more fruit.

So taking away cannot mean to prune.

And I've heard other odd explanations that are incorrect.

We should trust that the translators knew what the writer wanted to say....
they use hermeneutics and other language skills that we do not have.

 

[GodsGrace]

Courtesy laugh.

Thayer's wasn't much help either.

My guess is that it means, He is pruning.

Strong's, Thayer's, same.

Please see my post 1653...it cannot mean pruning.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Thanks for the reply.
"Taking them away in a continuous sense"
not sure what this means.

As to pruning...it cannot mean pruning because Jesus speaks about pruning in the very next sentence and the outcome is different:

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Every branch that DOES NOT bear fruit, God takes away. (God removes from the Vine).

THEN it goes on to speak about pruning:

Every branch that DOES bear fruit, God PRUNES so that it will produce even more fruit.

So taking away cannot mean to prune.

And I've heard other odd explanations that are incorrect.

We should trust that the translators knew what the writer wanted to say....
they use hermeneutics and other language skills that we do not have.

Should we? [Jhn 15:2 KJV] 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Edit: καθαίρω means I cleanse or purge. This can be concluded from the noun (of the same root?)

 

[MonoBiblical]

Strong's, Thayer's, same.

Please see my post 1653...it cannot mean pruning.

See post #1,655

 

[GodsGrace]

Should we? [Jhn 15:2 KJV] 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Right.
Two DIFFERENT branches...
Two different situations....

They cannot both mean TO PRUNE.

 

[GodsGrace]

See post #1,655

Let's try again:

John 15:2
A 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; one type of branch IT gets taken away.

B and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit; another type of branch IT gets pruned.

Branch A does not bear fruit -it gets taken away.

Branch B does bear fruit-it gets pruned.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Right.
Two DIFFERENT branches...
Two different situations....

They cannot both mean TO PRUNE.

And the verb other than taketh away implies cleansing or purging in the Israelite sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

And the verb other than taketh away implies cleansing or purging in the Israelite sense.

OK
What I'm saying is that we really have to depend on the translators...
they have more info than we do.