How Do You Define Death?

[Nancy]

'The dead praise not the LORD,
neither any that go down into silence.'
(Psa 115:17)

Hello there @April_Rose

Death is the absence of life. Physical life. It cannot be a spiritual death, because man is born with a natural body and not a spiritual one (1 Corinthians 15:44-46).

That is why it is said that they go down into silence, for there is no consciousness in death, the faculties for hearing, sight and speech having closed down in death.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hello Chris!

It really IS that simple, isn't it?
Happiest of New Years across the pond!!!
xx

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hello my long lost friend,

"What do you think about ghosts and aliens?"

As far as Aliens...there is nothing in scripture that would even infer to them, other than what you already think. as do I...they are demons living within the atmosphere and are able to influence all humans...yes, Christians too, who are not well brought up in the faith, and will not be able to recognize his "wiles".
That "outer darkness" is so hard (for me) to understand. Haven't looked at it in awhile as...it's one of those things I "put on the shelf" for later contemplation. and, if it is not "salvific" in any way...meh?

Yeah, the shelf is a good place for it. Just so I never have to find out the hard way!!!

 

[Nancy]

Yeah, the shelf is a good place for it. Just so I never have to find out the hard way!!!

Now, that's for sure. Maybe it's time to take it down and take another look see?
Maybe tomorrow...nite!

 

[charity]

Hello Chris!

It really IS that simple, isn't it?
Happiest of New Years across the pond!!!
xx

Hi @Nancy,

Yes! Happy New Year to you too, Nancy!! You in your small corner, and I in mine.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris xx

 

[Nancy]

Hi @Nancy,

Yes! Happy New Year to you too, Nancy!! You in your small corner, and I in mine.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris xx

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Seeing as the Psalms were written in the Old Testament/Old Covenant, the righteous went to Abrahams bosom, and the evil went to the other side, and in between there was a great gulf. Only Christians (after Christ's death and resurrection go straight to heaven, and the wicked to outer darkness. (Not for sure about the last part.)

I've always thought that when someone saw a ghost now, they would have to be either a demon or an unsaved person. The dead in Christ are with God. What do you think about ghosts and aliens? I think they are all demons, but could be wrong about ghosts. Aliens are demons, for sure.

I disagree. The Hebrew scriptures or old testament say that both righteous and unrighteous go to Sheol when they died. Also after Jesus sacrifice and resurrection and he had gone to heaven the scriptures tell us that those who were Christian and died went to Hades and so did those who were unbelievers. The scriptures show that those christians who had died will get a resurrection from Hades first at Jesus second presence(coming).

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Is this verse talking about a physical death, spiritual death, or both? Since isn't praising the Lord what we do in Heaven? Psalms 115:17

From the time of Jesus sacrifice and resurrection and he had gone into heaven, those who were christians and unbelievers went to Hades when they died, waiting for a resurrection. The scriptures tell us that the christians will be resurrected out of Hades first.

 

[Davy]

Is this verse talking about a physical death, spiritual death, or both? Since isn't praising the Lord what we do in Heaven? Psalms 115:17

Easy to think anytime God's Word uses the phrase "the dead" that it always means people that died and will one day be resurrected. That's not really how it is in all cases in God's Word.

It's good to have first studied chapters like Ecclesiastes 9 which contrasts the idea of the living vs. the dead, and also be reminded of verses like Isaiah 26:14 about a certain group of the dead...

Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
KJV

Notice that says those dead "shall not rise". We know per John 5:28-29 even the wicked "resurrection of damnation" are going to be raised from the dead too. So who are those above that "shall not rise"?

The above word "deceased" in the Hebrew is a word for the giants, the Rephaim. They shall not rise, i.e., resurrect. They have been visited by God and destroyed, and He has made all their memory to perish. This is the same kind of idea about the wicked dead contrasted in Ecclesiastes 9. Many make the mistake of thinking it's about even the asleep saints that have died. But there's actually a meaning of 'the dead' in God's Word for the giant hybrids that were the offspring by the fallen angels of Genesis 6. And they truly are... 'dead', in the full sense of the word, having no souls to resurrect.

So consider that when you read Scripture about the dead like Psalms 115:17, for yes, the Heavenly host does praise Him in Heaven. But those 'dead', the fully dead that shall not resurrect, even their memory is perished.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Easy to think anytime God's Word uses the phrase "the dead" that it always means people that died and will one day be resurrected. That's not really how it is in all cases in God's Word.

It's good to have first studied chapters like Ecclesiastes 9 which contrasts the idea of the living vs. the dead, and also be reminded of verses like Isaiah 26:14 about a certain group of the dead...

Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
KJV

Notice that says those dead "shall not rise". We know per John 5:28-29 even the wicked "resurrection of damnation" are going to be raised from the dead too. So who are those above that "shall not rise"?

The above word "deceased" in the Hebrew is a word for the giants, the Rephaim. They shall not rise, i.e., resurrect. They have been visited by God and destroyed, and He has made all their memory to perish. This is the same kind of idea about the wicked dead contrasted in Ecclesiastes 9. Many make the mistake of thinking it's about even the asleep saints that have died. But there's actually a meaning of 'the dead' in God's Word for the giant hybrids that were the offspring by the fallen angels of Genesis 6. And they truly are... 'dead', in the full sense of the word, having no souls to resurrect.

So consider that when you read Scripture about the dead like Psalms 115:17, for yes, the Heavenly host does praise Him in Heaven. But those 'dead', the fully dead that shall not resurrect, even their memory is perished.

How “they came to Life” ...yet the rest of the dead lived not until...His saying this is the first resurrection? Blessed are those that have part in the first resurrection “they came to Life”?
Revelation 20:4 Lexicon: Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


“they came to life”.
and they came to life
ἔζησαν
(ezēsan)

2198: to live

from prim. roots zé- and z

Strong's Greek: 2198. ζάω (zaó) -- to live


1. to live, be among the living, be alive (not lifeless, not dead):

2. emphatically, and in the Messianic sense, to enjoy real life, i. e. to have true life and worthy of the name — active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God

3. to live i. e. pass life,

living water,
(cf. our spring water)

to be no longer dead, to recover life, be restored to life:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

What is “they came to Life”?
What is “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.” Revelation 20:5
...considering with your study on “the dead”

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they came to Life...how could those beheaded for the testimony “they came to Life” unless the Spirit of life from God entered into them,...?

Revelation 11:7-11 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. [10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. [11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I disagree. The Hebrew scriptures or old testament say that both righteous and unrighteous go to Sheol when they died. Also after Jesus sacrifice and resurrection and he had gone to heaven the scriptures tell us that those who were Christian and died went to Hades and so did those who were unbelievers. The scriptures show that those christians who had died will get a resurrection from Hades first at Jesus second presence(coming).

I agree. But Jesus shows us in His account of the Rich Man and Lazarus that there are two sides to it. The Rich Man was NOT inside Abraham's Bosom because it is obvious he was suffering where he was. It is my belief and reasoning, that because many saw the the OT saint's tombs opened at His death, and they were raised at His resurrection, they ascended when He did. I certainly don't believe they went back into their tombs alive. So the side of Sheol that is Abraham's Bosom/Paradise is empty.

The next resurrection will be of the Church, which will include the Jews who come to their Messiah during the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

[Davy]

How “they came to Life” ...yet the rest of the dead lived not until...His saying this is the first resurrection? Blessed are those that have part in the first resurrection “they came to Life”?
Revelation 20:4 Lexicon: Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


“they came to life”.
and they came to life
ἔζησαν
(ezēsan)

2198: to live

from prim. roots zé- and z

Strong's Greek: 2198. ζάω (zaó) -- to live


1. to live, be among the living, be alive (not lifeless, not dead):

2. emphatically, and in the Messianic sense, to enjoy real life, i. e. to have true life and worthy of the name — active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God

3. to live i. e. pass life,

living water,
(cf. our spring water)

to be no longer dead, to recover life, be restored to life:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

What is “they came to Life”?
What is “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.” Revelation 20:5
...considering with your study on “the dead”

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they came to Life...how could those beheaded for the testimony “they came to Life” unless the Spirit of life from God entered into them,...?

Revelation 11:7-11 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. [10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. [11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

And now he has become a troll, following me around on the forum.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I agree. But Jesus shows us in His account of the Rich Man and Lazarus that there are two sides to it. The Rich Man was NOT inside Abraham's Bosom because it is obvious he was suffering where he was. It is my belief and reasoning, that because many saw the the OT saint's tombs opened at His death, and they were raised at His resurrection, they ascended when He did. I certainly don't believe they went back into their tombs alive. So the side of Sheol that is Abraham's Bosom/Paradise is empty.

The next resurrection will be of the Church, which will include the Jews who come to their Messiah during the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Actually I believe that's not true about Hades having two sides to it. I believe that people who don't believe humans are souls but instead they believe humans have souls, look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a literal historical event that actually happened. But when Jesus told that parable of Lazarus and the rich man it was not to teach people what's literally being said is what he's trying to teach the people, but what's literally being said is teaching something other than what is literally being said. Remember that Jesus taught the people with illustrations or parables. Remember that Jesu said he that has ears, listen. He's trying to move people to dig deep as though they're looking for gold. Those who take what Jesus says literally all the time are not going to get the truth of what he's saying.

At Matthew 27:51-53 whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they, meaning the persons, were raised up. He said their bodies were. There's a difference in a body being raised up and a person being raised back to life. Matthew did not say these bodies came back to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·geiʹro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection of a person back to life. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69) The upheaval caused by the earthquake at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and more recently, in 1962, in Colombia.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) I don't believe the corpses or bodies raised up at Jesus’ death could have come to life in the way many think because it was on the third day after Jesus death that he was raised from the dead, becoming “the firstborn from the dead.” (Colossians 1:18) Jesus was the first person raised back to life and also the first person who went into heaven. So I don't believe any perso was raised back to life when Jesus was put to death. Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,” who were the Apostles and disciples of the first century christians were promised a share in the first resurrection which is during Christ’s second presence(coming), they were not to be resurrected in the first century, 1Thessalonians 3:13 and 4:14-17 shows us that. So no one was resurrected back to life before Jesus and it's the Apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who get a resurrection first after Jesus is resurrected.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Actually I believe that's not true about Hades having two sides to it. I believe that people who don't believe humans are souls but instead they believe humans have souls, look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a literal historical event that actually happened. But when Jesus told that parable of Lazarus and the rich man it was not to teach people what's literally being said is what he's trying to teach the people, but what's literally being said is teaching something other than what is literally being said. Remember that Jesus taught the people with illustrations or parables. Remember that Jesu said he that has ears, listen. He's trying to move people to dig deep as though they're looking for gold. Those who take what Jesus says literally all the time are not going to get the truth of what he's saying.

At Matthew 27:51-53 whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they, meaning the persons, were raised up. He said their bodies were. There's a difference in a body being raised up and a person being raised back to life. Matthew did not say these bodies came back to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·geiʹro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection of a person back to life. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69) The upheaval caused by the earthquake at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and more recently, in 1962, in Colombia.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) I don't believe the corpses or bodies raised up at Jesus’ death could have come to life in the way many think because it was on the third day after Jesus death that he was raised from the dead, becoming “the firstborn from the dead.” (Colossians 1:18) Jesus was the first person raised back to life and also the first person who went into heaven. So I don't believe any perso was raised back to life when Jesus was put to death. Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,” who were the Apostles and disciples of the first century christians were promised a share in the first resurrection which is during Christ’s second presence(coming), they were not to be resurrected in the first century, 1Thessalonians 3:13 and 4:14-17 shows us that. So no one was resurrected back to life before Jesus and it's the Apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who get a resurrection first after Jesus is resurrected.

Barney, I believe it is truth.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Barney, I believe it is truth.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

I know you believe it to be true, I never said you didn't believe it to be true. I also know from the scriptures that a man who was Saul of Tarus who became the Apostle Paul that he believed that the Christians were as the Pharisees said they were, criminals, law breakers, who should be brought to the Sahedren and punished. Some of the Jews stoned the disciple Stephen to death and Saul of tarsus approved of this stoning. That's how much he believed in what was said about the Christians to be true, he believed it so much that he was on his way to Damascus to find any Christians there and bring them back to Jerusalem and have them put on trial and punished when Jesus came to him in a blinding light and Saul was told how he was wrong in what he was doing and believed. We all can believe something to be true but that doesn't mean we can't
be wrong about what we believe. We're all imperfect fallible people. If you believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man is to be taken as a literal historical event that literally happened, that's your right. I just don't believe it should be taken or believed that way, so I don't. We simply disagree with how the rich man and Lazarus story should be looked at or taken. I think it's a story that isn't to be taken literally and it tells a truth about the situation going on at the time that Jesus was on earth. We should simply agree to disagree.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I know you believe it to be true, I never said you didn't believe it to be true. I also know from the scriptures that a man who was Saul of Tarus who became the Apostle Paul that he believed that the Christians were as the Pharisees said they were, criminals, law breakers, who should be brought to the Sahedren and punished. Some of the Jews stoned the disciple Stephen to death and Saul of tarsus approved of this stoning. That's how much he believed in what was said about the Christians to be true, he believed it so much that he was on his way to Damascus to find any Christians there and bring them back to Jerusalem and have them put on trial and punished when Jesus came to him in a blinding light and Saul was told how he was wrong in what he was doing and believed. We all can believe something to be true but that doesn't mean we can't
be wrong about what we believe. We're all imperfect fallible people. If you believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man is to be taken as a literal historical event that literally happened, that's your right. I just don't believe it should be taken or believed that way, so I don't. We simply disagree with how the rich man and Lazarus story should be looked at or taken. I think it's a story that isn't to be taken literally and it tells a truth about the situation going on at the time that Jesus was on earth. We should simply agree to disagree.

You do know that it was Jesus who told the story, which is why I have no doubt. Was He wrong?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You do know that it was Jesus who told the story, which is why I have no doubt. Was He wrong?

I know Jesus told the story. Are you forgetting that the scriptures said that when Jesus talked to crowds of Jews he talked in illustrations. Matthew 13:34 says: Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them.” Luke 16:19-31 are the scriptures that speak of the rich man and Lazarus and if you read Luke16 starting at verse 1 you see Jesus was talking to a crowd of Jews that included his disciples and the Pharisees who were the religious leaders of Israel. So in keeping with scriptural evidence that Jesus spoke to the crowds of Jews only in illustrations and that he wouldn't speak to the crowds except by illustrations then the scriptures of Luke 16:19-31 is an illustration.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I know Jesus told the story. Are you forgetting that the scriptures said that when Jesus talked to crowds of Jews he talked in illustrations. Matthew 13:34 says: Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them.” Luke 16:19-31 are the scriptures that speak of the rich man and Lazarus and if you read Luke16 starting at verse 1 you see Jesus was talking to a crowd of Jews that included his disciples and the Pharisees who were the religious leaders of Israel. So in keeping with scriptural evidence that Jesus spoke to the crowds of Jews only in illustrations and that he wouldn't speak to the crowds except by illustrations then the scriptures of Luke 16:19-31 is an illustration.

Yes, he spoke to the crowds in parables Luke 15. But Luke 16 is just to the disciples, and the Pharisees overheard Him. That is how I see the difference.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yes, he spoke to the crowds in parables Luke 15. But Luke 16 is just to the disciples, and the Pharisees overheard Him. That is how I see the difference.

Jesus knew the Pharisees were there he had said some things before talking about Lazarus and the rich man and the Pharisees were sneering at him because they knew Jesus was talking about them.Luke16:14 Then Jesus started talking to them and about them from Luke 16:15-31. So I find it interesting that because the Pharisees loved money that it's very reasonable that the rich man, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, would be the Pharisees and the beggar who was named Lazarus were the common Jews, who the Pharisees hated. Jesus is talking about two classes of people not just two individuals. Tell me, would you like to hear more about this or are you not interested?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Jesus knew the Pharisees were there he had said some things before talking about Lazarus and the rich man and the Pharisees were sneering at him because they knew Jesus was talking about them.Luke16:14 Then Jesus started talking to them and about them from Luke 16:15-31. So I find it interesting that because the Pharisees loved money that it's very reasonable that the rich man, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, would be the Pharisees and the beggar who was named Lazarus were the common Jews, who the Pharisees hated. Jesus is talking about two classes of people not just two individuals. Tell me, would you like to hear more about this or are you not interested?

If you don't want to believe that there are facts in Jesus' stories, that's okay. I can still believe Him if I want to, and I do, and for the reasons I already gave you.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

If you don't want to believe that there are facts in Jesus' stories, that's okay. I can still believe Him if I want to, and I do, and for the reasons I already gave you.

What you choose to believe is your choice. Like I say to those who disagree with me, we should agree to disagree