Wrangler
Well-Known Member
NOTE: Not one dingle reference to Jesus.
And this is THE BEST you can do to justify defying Jesus, who did not teach us to pray to him. Why not just obey Jesus and pray only to God, who we relate to as Father?
How do you do bible study?
- Thread starter Chong Shipei
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And this is THE BEST you can do to justify defying Jesus, who did not teach us to pray to him. Why not just obey Jesus and pray only to God, who we relate to as Father?
Paul is not our NT teacher, but He does use men also.
Mat 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
Rabbi means Teacher in Hebrew. So the translators of the Scriptures decided to not translate that Hebrew word. Now to be sure that if we indeed to listen to the Lord He regularly gives us teachings, like the above explanation. And it is also written what you hear whispered in your ears shout on the house tops. So a person can and should pass along teachings they got from Him. Therefore we can learn from other people, and in that sense they might be thought of as teachers. The Lord might, and seems to, regularly like to use some people in that capacity. Therefore teaching can even be a gift from the Holy Spirit and or an type of office you might find in a church. The church is supposed to edify (teach in religious matters).
Never-the-less, they are supposed to do that by listening to the Lord our God, Jesus Christ and bring the teachings He gives them. So who really is the Teacher, and be proclaimed as the Teacher? To not call anyone Teacher, because you have only One Teacher - but let's not get too dogmatic about it. There is also something written about not arguing over semantics, and that is where this has gone.
If we know Jesus Christ personally as our Teacher, so that we study the Bible with Him personally, is what matters. He might have someone also give you a 'word' from Him, which might even be a teaching. Still, Paul also explained about taking all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ. So even if you trusted pastor at your church gives you a teaching and proclaims He got it from Jesus Christ (which he should have) still take it to Jesus Christ as your Teacher to explain how if at all it applies to you personally!! Do that nor not doing that is not semantics, it is knowing Jesus Christ personally!
What?????
Who then was that man who knowns as the Word of God who took on flesh and walked amoung those disciples who say they knew Jesus??
And what child then do you think Isaiah was talking about when He said a child would be born to us - since you have just explain that is not a reference to Jesus??? And put a little 'dingle' on there too?
Frankly I find some things just amazing. How about Rev 19:13
Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
So you don't think Jesus was the One whose robe was dipped in blood??? Who do you think then went to the cross?
The Christ is the Son of God and He is God. Which is why in Christianity we have what we call the Trinity, meaning One God in three persons. For someone who doesn't listen to Him, it is a hard concept to grasp. For someone who has spent 20 years listening to Him, let me tell you that it is not hard to grasp at all. I have already explained it in prior posts, about how the word of God is given to the Son, but the Son only speaks and does what He is told, and how the Holy Spirit doesn't speak on His own initiative but only speaks the words of God which belong to the Son to you.
A person listening to the Lord our God, Jesus Christ, should at some point get a decent understanding of this. Every single word that comes from God comes from the Son, Jesus Christ, and is spoken to us via the Holy Spirit speaking to our spirit. Yes they came down from the Father of lights, but Jesus Christ, that child born to us but who was also around in the beginning with God and who was God, owns them. The words of God are thus His (Jesus Christ's) words. He owns them!
That is why when we hear from Father God we hear from Him, Jesus Christ. When we hear from Might God, we hear from Him, Jesus Christ! If we hear from the Wonderful Counselor, we hear from Him, Jesus Christ. If we get any word from God which we hear, we hear from Him, Jesus Christ!
His sheep do hear His voice! And we know it! Another we will not follow, though the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit around!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
What? Changing the subject. It is a plain fact that John 1:1 does not even reference Jesus.
Are you aware that not every use of the word ‘word’ in Scripture refers to Jesus?
OH MY!!
John 1:1 does not apply to Jesus???? Really?? Let us just take a look at what was written, and not your denial!
Below is Jn 1:1-17
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
So we read that the Word was God!!! So we can not deny that, unless we just want to deny the Bible as well as Jesus Christ.
We read that noting has come into came into being except through Him - which matches up with Col 1
Col 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;...
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
So we find proof both in John 17, and in Col 1 that Jesus is the Word (Him) brought up in John 1:1
We also see in John 1 that He, the Word, is the Light. And we know that Jesus is the light who took on flesh and walked among the disciples like John. This can be confirmed in John 8:12
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
And we also find a problem in John 1. That problem is that many, even of His own, don't receive Him!! Indeed, in general we find the world does not know Him! Yet those who do receive Him are given the right to be children of God, and again the Word (who is Jesus Christ as just proven via the Scriptures) is God. He is the Word who was in the beginning with God and is God. And we who do indeed receive Him are thus counted as His children.
And since we hear His voice, He sometimes calls us son or daughter, I presume because He sometimes calls me "son". I have already testified about that, as I would think anyone who is children of God because they received Him would also have heard from Him. And He is the light when we follow Him. We follow Him by hearing His voice - His words as being the words of God who we hear from.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
That is what happens, for me. I get up in the morning and I hear His voice, which comes to me via His Holy Spirit speaking His words for me personally to my spirit. He might tell me 'Good morning', or ' you have to get up because there is a lot to do', or He can say pretty much most anything. I don't know what He is going to say until He says it, because He exists and His thoughts are not my thoughts. It is just like written:
Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
He really does speak words to my spirit via His Holy Spirit. He says things like:
"Karl, they call me Wonderful Counselor and so I Am, but I am not a wonderful counselor to those who don't listen to me."
So it is that He teaches me and gives me wonderful counsel in the process of teaching me. So when I study the Bible I do so with Him who speaks words to me, and thus the One whose name is called "The Word of God". He is also the King of kings, because His Father put Him on the throne. As can be read about in Rev 19.
Rev 19:13 - 16 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [fn]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Now Revelation is a revelation about Him. We of course should already have had Him revealed to us, but as already brought up, some have not received Him, and even some who are supposed to be His people - like some called Christians or Jews. There is nothing new under the Sun. There are still people who are supposed to be His people but don't receive Him. That would mean they don't actually understand who He is. They don't actually listen to Him, nor a lead by His voice. Thus they are not called His children, so they don't know Him as Father, but Isaiah knew about Him being a child that was going to be born to us and that He would be called Wonderful Counselor, The Might God, the Everlasting Father, along with the Prince of Peace.
So who then is saying that Jesus Christ is not The Might God nor the Everlasting Father. According to the verses above, they have not received Him. That can change - can't it? Jesus said He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into them and eat with then and them with Him. That is the Good News, that we came come to know Him personally - even as the Teacher who goes over the Bible with us so we get understanding!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Really! Did you ever read what John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed? So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!
In light of 20:31, it is patently absurd what Christians try to make of the prologue as it contradicts John's stated purpose.
I understand the need for you to go there - nothing in Scripture explicitly teaches the trinity. So, you have to reach beyond your grasp.
You know you never answered the question I put to you about who you think that child born to us who is called "The Might God" and "The Everlasting Father" is!!
Let me just bring up that verse in Isaiah again to you can actually think about it - then I will get to the verse (John 20:31). The both verse, like the whole Bible actually come together really well if you understand the Jesus Christ is the Lord our God, but blind and confuse the person who doesn't actually know Him and listen to Him.
Is 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Now I rarely find a Christian who does not understand that child born to us, is Jesus Christ. Even if the Christian doesn't really know Him and talk to Him, as in His sheep hear His voice, they can almost alwasy realize that "child born to us" is Jesus Christ, so then they should understand that He is God the Son, and thus He is Mighty God, and our Eternal Father. Being our Eternal Father does not mean that He does not have a Father. I had a dad (physical father) and he had a did (a physical father), and since all things came into being thought Jesus Christ (as already shown in prior verses I posted on this thread) Jesus Christ would be our Eternal Father. It doesn't really make since to deny it, because it is plain to see even from reading and studying the Scriptures, and we really get our understanding from His voice and the words our Teacher (again that is Jesus Christ as the Word of God) has to say to us.
So while I am surprised when I find someone claiming to study the Scriptures and failing to understand that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is that child born to us who is called "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father". Clearly they are wrong according to what is written in the Bible. So just as clearly they would have trouble answering the question about who they think that child is, if not Jesus Christ. They would have to ignore the question, right? And the question was ignored. And that brings us to the verse brought up John 20:31.
Jn 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Now that verse only makes sense if that child born to us (the One who is called both Might God, and Eternal Father) is Jesus Christ. Because believing that gives you life, as in eternally knowing Him and being with Him in heaven. In fact Jesus means God's salvation!! So while my physical father enable me to get a physical life and be born into that, my Eternal Father gives me Eternal life, as in "Salvation"
Therefore God's salvation (Jesus) is the Christ, and He is the Son of God that you have to believe in. And He is that child born to us which Isaiah was talking about being called our Eternal Father, and so He is also called Mighty God. Yet also note that another name He is called is Wonderful Counselor, but if you don't go to a counselor and listen to them, they are not a counselor to you!
He once told me, "Karl, they call me Wonderful Counselor, but I Am not a wonderful counselor to those who don't listen to me.
The Christ is actually known by quite a few names! You can buy books on the various names that child born to us has. "I AM" is one of those names. He is called that because He said He would never leave us, and He does not leave us. Of course to be always with us He has to be omni-present which is a characteristic only belonging to God. And it is written that He is the perfect image of the invisible God, which would mean that He is omni-present.
In the Scriptures we read that He is One with His Father. So we know in Christianity we have the trinity, (God the Father, Son, and Spirit) which though not directly mentioned in the Bible, it is clearly covered in the Bible. As in Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
It is also seen in John 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
See the "together with" that is the Father and the Son being One, and I believe we already covered on an earlier post how the Holy Spirit of God does not speak on His own but as He hears He speaks, so the Holy Spirit is also part of the God head!
The problem I see more often in Christianity, is not that Christian don't realize that Jesus is God the Son, but more often they fail to realize how it is the good pleasure of the Father and the Holy Spirit, to always glorify the Son!!! Many don't realize that it is the Son of God who is the Great I Am who spoke to Moses, even though in Revelation and other places too we see Jesus Christ as the I AM. Many often fail to realize that it is the Father and the Holy Spirits good pleasure to have the Son (Jesus Christ) get the credit for the might of God! So while God parted the Red Sea, it is the Son who gets the glory of God, according to the desires of the Father and the Holy Spirit. You see, the Father loves the Son and so He is not looking for the glory to come to Him, but rather to His Son - Jesus Christ - that child born to us.
We would get wisdom and understand that if we indeed spent time listening to Him.
Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
So again, that child born to us is the Son of God, whom we usually call Jesus Christ because the Christ is God's Salvaltion (Jesus). And through Him all things were created - many all us people also, so we could be called sons of God (God the Son) and He does call us sons if we actually let Him into our lives by actually starting to listen to Him! But if you don't, you might have a bit of trouble putting what we read in the Bible together. The Father wants the Son glorified, and the Son wants the Father and Him to be glorified "together" because neither are in the habit of think about just themselves. And the Holy Spirit of God brings us all that information, but He does not speak on His own initiative, but as the Holy Spirit hears from the Son, who owns the words of God because His Father gave them to Him. So God is One God, but as we understand in Christianity we have One God in three persons. That is best understood from spending time listening to Him. You find that you get to know Jesus Christ - but then again knowing Jesus Christ personally doesn't really mean you know Him, because Jesus even explained that He only does and says what Father tells Him. So, the Father and the Son are glorified together, per the request of the Son, but according to the desires of the Father it is still Jesus Christ the Son of God whom gets the glory - the acknowledgement of being Mighty God and Eternal Father - just exactly like Isaiah foretold!!
^^^^ With much meditation and ponderings.
Let the Holy Spirit reveal to you what God wants you to understand from the scriptures.
Let the Holy Spirit reveal to you what God wants you to understand from the scriptures.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Oh. I must have missed it. This is a question I've answered several dozens of times here on CB.
Many times trinitarians ask questions, they intend to be rhetorical, or there is no other plausible answer besides their inherently contradictory doctrine. To grasp an alternative world view, you must start by realizing the Jews never considered that verse to be referring to the Messiah. Do you realize that?
The starting point of my answer is to jettison the false trinitarian take on unitarian text. If you cannot do that, you will have no hope of understanding the answer. Jesus was NEVER called Father. So, this is your 1st hint that the verse in question is not referring to God's Anointed. For more details, read this.
Well - you missed answering the question again. And your attempt to "jettison the false trinitarian" view point is not your starting point it is your way to avoid the answer, because you don't have an answer.
It is a very simply question - who do you think that child born to us is, who Isaiah explain was called Wonderful Counselor, Might God, Eternal Father, and Prince of Peace is?
And explaining that Jesus was Never called Father - only tells me that you don't know that child as your Wonderful Counselor, nor have you seen the power that from doing things in His name (meaning He tells you personally to do something and you do it and give Him the credit for telling you to do it instead of taking the credit yourself). That is what it means to know the Lord out God, Jesus Christ. His sheep hear His voice - we actually hear a voice, that we often call that small voice, and we do what He tells us and we often see incredible miracles. And when you personally get to know Him, you also find out that He who talks to you is your creator and He thus made you to walk with Him as His Son - or daughter. You know that because He calls you "son" at times. And you know that He has the words of God.
Yet you are right about one thing. The Jews (for the most part) did not consider Him to be the Messiah. So when He "Might God', show up in front of them doing miracles they didn't know Him! Or at least most did not know Him. A couple did actually know Him, even when He showed up as that child born to us. They knew because they knew the Word of God, unlike most of the Jews.
Luke 2:23 And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed—
There - that is the Child!!! The one you know about when you listen to the Holy Spirit. But when you listen to the Holy Spirit speaking to your spirit you also find out that the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own initiative! Rather, word the Holy Spirit speaks are the words of God which the Holy Spirit gets from the Son (that Child)!!
Jesus explained all this and it is written in the Scriptures - Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
So that child, Jesus Christ, speaks words to you via the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit takes the words of God from Jesus Christ.
Jn 16: 13-15 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
So the words of God belong to that child, the Son of God who is called Mighty God, because "All thing that the Father has are His"!! They all belong to that child which was born to us. Still - yes - most of the Jews did not know that child was Him, because they didn't listen to the words of God that He, that child has been given!!
So how is it that you don't know that child Isaiah talked about is the Word of God (the One who owns the words of God) and Mighty God, and that the words of the Father are His words?? Is it like Jesus explained to the Jews back then?
Jn 8: 23,24 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Jn 8:25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning?
Jn 8:26 “I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”
Jn 8:27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
So who understand how God is One God - how the Son is giving the words of God from the Father - how the Holy Spirit takes the words of God which belong to the Son, and how the Holy Spirit only speaks the Sons words to you. And the reason people don't or do understand that is a direct result of hearing personally from Jesus Christ (whose name is called The Word of God because He owns the words of God - there were given to Him_, via the Holy Spirit.
So Jesus explained the problem to them!
Jn 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word."
I do hear His words. We talk. Yes - the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit so I test the spirit and use some discernment, but I do hear from Him. He calls me "Son". He tells me "Karl, I love you." He gives me teachings like:
AS INSTRUCTIONS ARE GIVEN TO A SERVANT, AND WISDOM AND PARABLES TO A SON, AND AS JOKES ARE GIVEN TO A FRIEND, SO I LOVE YOU IS SAID TO A BRIDE.
Concerning this thread, He talks to me about the Bible. Indeed the first words I heard from Him were "Read Your Bible", yet those were just the first words. He often tells me specifically where to turn to like the time He told me to turn to Ezekiel 3 and had me read and as I read He also spoke to me similar but personal instructions to me that were similar. He was telling me that He was sending me to people who were not going to speak a foreign language. He was sending me to people who should listen to me but that they were not going to me because they didn't listen to Him. He gives me instructions! And those instructions given to me on that day were similar to where He has asked me to open my Bible to and read.
Eze 3:4 - 8 Then He said to me, “Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. “For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is [fn]stubborn and obstinate. “Behold, I have made your face as hard as their faces and your forehead as hard as their foreheads.
He has me tell people to seek Him and listen to Him, - and He is that child who Isaiah spoke of and whose name is called the Word of God. He has the words of God. They were given to Him and He speaks to me through His Holy Spirit (not only me but all His sheep hear His voice - but not all who say they are His sheep. Many don't actually know Him personally) So I know, because I hear from Him, that His Father gave all things to Him, including the words of God, and that the Holy Spirit acts kind of like a living telephone line to my Lord Jesus Christ who is the Word of God, and is Mighty God, my Wonderful Counselor, even the One through whom all things were created so He is fairly call my Father and He calls me His son.
And I have seen why people don't understand what I am saying - it is because they can not hear His words!! You have to believe in Him, that Jesus Christ is there with the words of God for you personally!! You have to understand that Jesus Christ is the Great I Am. That He is the Word of God. That He is that child born to us so that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life and thus know Jesus Christ as Eternal Father. They will know Him as their Teacher. They will study the Bible with Jesus Christ.
Yet look at this thread!! Who really seem to know Him??? Who has written down things that He has told them? Who really show they have a personal relationship? And who are making it about reading the Bible by their own understanding and seeking after other men and or traditions?
We are not like those Ezekiel was sent to, are we? Those who should hear from Him but don't?
Ezek 3L11 “Go to the exiles, to the sons of your people, and speak to them and tell them, whether they listen or not, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD.’”
The Christ has always been the Word of God - the One who spoke to Ezekiel! The Lord our God!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I did answer. You just don't like my answer. Did you even read the link I provided?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No sir. God is perfectly able to speak on his own. Our God is merciful and at the request of Israel, he put his words into one of the people. This is why Jesus said God sent him.
No one sends God. God sent Jesus. God told Jesus what to say and how to say it. Not much of a god who is told what to say and how to say it.
I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it.
John 12:49
Dropship
Well-Known Member
Just select any chapter and make a written note (or save to your hard drive with Wordpad) of any verses which catch your eye, and insert them into different categories in alphabetical order, then select other chapters and do the same thing and so on.
Below are the categories I use, and as you see i've inserted a verse into each for easy reference, this is just a brief example as i've got dozens of verses in each category in my Wordpad folder..
ANGELS - "God shall give his angels charge over you to keep you safe" (Psalm 91:9-11)
ANIMALS - "God.. in whose hand is the soul of every living thing" (Job12:10 KJV)
ASHAMED - Jesus said "Whoever's ashamed of me and my words,I'll be ashamed of him" (Mark 8:38 )
BEAUTY - "Womens beauty comes from within, not from braided hair, jewellery and fine clothes"(1 Peter 3:3/4)
BAD PRIESTS - Jesus said "The prostitutes will get to heaven ahead of you, you think you look good in your fancy robes but inside you're full of filth and corruption" (Matt 21:32/Matt 23:27)
BUTTON IT - Jesus said "Every careless word you speak will be judged" (Matt 12:36)
CHILL - "What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" (James 4:14)
COMFORT - Jesus said "In my fathers kingdom are many mansions,I go to prepare a place for you,so that you'll be there with me" (John 14:2-6)
COOL - Jesus said "Whoever speaks a word against me shall be forgiven" (Luke 12:10)
CREDENTIALS - Jesus said "All things about me in the law of Moses,the Prophets and the Psalms,must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44)
DON'T ARGUE - Jesus said "If people won't listen to you,shake off the dust from your feet as you leave,as a testimony to them" (Matt 10:14/15)
DON'T DANCE - Jesus said "The world wants you to dance to its tune" (Matt 11:16/17)
DON'T GET BOGGED - "Set your mind on things above,not on things on the earth" (Col 3:2)
EVERYWHERE - "Am I only a nearby God? Can you hide? I fill heaven and earth" (Jer 23:23/4)
EVIL - Jesus said "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16)
FATHER TO ALL - "God is a father of the fatherless" (Psalm 68:5)
FRIENDS - Jesus said "You're my friends if you do what I command,not my servants. Instead,I call you friends.." (John ch 15)
GAME END - Jesus said "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be,I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
GOD - "God is love" (1 John 4:8 )
I AM - High Priest asked Jesus "Are you the Son of God?", and Jesus replied "I am" (Mark 14:61)
JUDGEMENT DAY - Jesus said "All in the graves shall come out,to resurrection or damnation" (John 5:28/29)
KIDS - "Children are a heritage of the Lord,and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Psalm 127:3)
MAD? - "Jesus's family and friends tried to take charge of him,saying he's out of his mind" (Mark 3:21)
MARRIAGE - Jesus said "at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female, for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh So they are no longer two, but one." (Matt 19:4)
MYSTERY - Jesus said "You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12)
NEW TESTAMENT - "The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13)
NONBELIEVERS - "These men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed.." (2 Peter 2:12)
NO WIMPS - "For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power.." (2 Tim 1:7)
OCCULT - God says "I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists" (Lev 20:6)
ONE GOD - "I am God and there is no other,there is none like me" (Isa 46:9)
ONE PATH - Jesus said "I am the way and the life,nobody comes to God except through me" (John 14:5/6)
POWER - "After Jesus spent the night in prayer,everybody tried to touch him because power was coming from him" (Luke 6:12-19)
PROPHECY - "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times" (Micah 5:2)
REJECTION - Jesus said "Whoever rejects me rejects God" (Luke 10:16)
SATAN - Jesus said "He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44)
SAY IT - Jesus said "Say you're mine in front of people,and I'll say I'm yours in front of my Father" (Matt 10:32)
SIMPLICITY - Paul said "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
SUFFERING - Jesus said "To follow me you must carry your own cross daily" (Luke 9:23)
WELCOME - Jesus said "Whoever comes to me, I will never turn away" (John 6:37)
WHOLE LAW - Jesus said "Love God and your neighbour, this is the whole law" (Matt 22:36)
WINNERS - "Who has beaten the world? Whoever believes Jesus is the Son of God" (1 John 5:5)
WORK - Jesus said "The work God requires is to believe in the one he has sent" (John 6:28 )
We absolutely need to let the Holy Spirit reveal to us what we need to know!!
Yet what the Holy Spirit reveals is Jesus Christ!! And the primarily way the Holy Spirit does that is by not speaking His own words or speaking according to His own initiative!
Jn 16:13, 14 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
This is important to understand about the Holy Spirit - He is out to Glorify the Son of God (Jesus Christ) and so the Holy Spirit does not speak His own words or even on His own initiative. If you ask the Holy Spirit, He is not rude, so He will answer and tell you that Jesus Christ is Lord and Jesus Christ came in the flesh - which is a way to test the Spirit - but even those words came down from the Father and were given to the Son, so the Holy Spirit picks them up from the Son. That is what the Holy Spirit speaks - the words of God that belong to Jesus Christ!!
Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Note in the above verse Jesus explained that the Holy Spirit gives life and Jesus explained that the words from the Holy Spirit were the words He (Jesus Christ) speaks to you. Those words are spirit, not sound waves nor ink on paper but rather spiritual word we get in our spirit from the Holy Spirit. Still those words are the words of God which Jesus Christ is speaking to you!! So it is that Jesus Christ is the Word of God - no matter what unbelievers want to think. The Word of God we preach is near us, and we find Jesus Christ speaking to our spirit via His Holy Spirit - so that we find them in our heart and often coming out our mouth.
So what the Holy Spirit really reveals is Jesus Christ! Our Teacher is thus Jesus Christ and not actually the Holy Spirit!
If my brother called me up on the phone and gave me a teaching he picked up, I would not say the phone talked to me, would I? Yes my brothers voice came through the phone, but the phone was not speaking on it's own initiative or it's words. So the phone did indeed reveal to me the words of my brother, but it was not the phone by my brother who had the teaching. In the same way I we don't call the Holy Spirit the Teacher, but rather we call Jesus Christ the teacher.
So the Holy Spirit might be said to reveal Jesus Christ to us, but Jesus Christ reveals and gives us teaching on the Bible through His Holy Spirit, right?
The Father gave the Son all things!!! So if I give someone something, then it is theirs as a possession. They can then give it to who they will, but they might choose to give it who someone else suggest they give it to! Never-the-less - that does not change who owns it!!
And if someone speaks to you with the Father's authority it is the authority of God, and since Jesus Christ only speaks on the Father's authority then He always has the authority of God and thus is One with God!! And His sheep Hear His voice and His voice is the Word of God!! And that is just what all the verses and the concept of the trinity, and the Christian understanding explains.
So again, how is it you don't understand what I am saying??
If you were hearing from Jesus Christ, that child born to us, the One who is the King of kings and Lord or lords, the One who the Father put on the throne, the One the Holy Spirit and the Father glorify, the One through whom all things (like you and me) were created so that we might be call sons of Him who created us if He wishes, so the One who we know as our Father in heaven like Isaiah mentioned, the One with all the authority of God because He has the words of God and authority flows though the words of the King (Jesus Christ) so He is also glorified as Might God - then you would know about all I am saying - but if you don't seek Him, and don't listen to Him, and don't get to know Him personally, then how are you going to understanding then it is of no surprise you don't have understanding and knowledge of this.
Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Rev 19:13 - 16 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Ps 2: 6,7 “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.” “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
If you could put together what was happening using only your understanding of the Scriptures - then you could have put together that Jesus Chist is the Word of God - indeed that is His name! You could have figured out that He is the King that is above all things, as per the good pleasure and will of His Father. He is that child who was born to us whose has the names Wonderful Counselor, Might God, and Eternal Father. You could have figured out that He is the One who took on flesh and went to the cross so as to have His robe dipped in blood, thus making Him the Word of God and the Word of God mentioned as God in John 1: 1-2.
Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
So you would have know that He is the Lord our God as per the will of His Father. That the Father has given Him all the authority of God, as the verse you provided but misunderstood proves. Did you not read that He doesn't speak on His own authority? So then He speaks with the full authority of God whenever He speaks, because He has been given the Word of God! He owns them!! They are His!! And His sheep hear His voice, so they know all this!!
Jn 16: 13-15 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
So the very words of God were given to Jesus Christ, and He owns them! They are now His words!! So if we hear the words of God spoken to us by the Holy Spirit, those words are from and owned by Jesus Christ!! If you would have heard Him, you could have asked and found this out!!
Acts 22:8 “And I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?' And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.'
And you could have found out that He is the Lord your God - because you can only come to God though Him! So, coming to Him is coming to God!
Can a person say they really believe in Jesus Christ if they don't believe that He is who He is?? And can a person really come to know Him and not come to know who He is?
Maybe if they have know Him too long, or maybe if they don't really know Him too well. Yet I have talked to Him everyday I can remember for that last 20 plus years, and He is the Lord my God. He is my Lord because He gives me instructions, which is what a Lord does! He is my God because the words of God to me personally come through Him! I know Him as Mighty God because I have seen Him hundreds of miracles and more. He had me helping in a Christian healing ministry and most night I saw some type of miracle from Him, even legs growing out in front of me. I know Him as Wonderful Counselor, because He gives me wonderful counsel. I know Him as my Teacher, because He always seem to be teaching me things Like when He told me, "Karl, they call me Wonderful Counselor, but I am not a wonderful counselor to those who don't listen to Me.
His Father and the Holy Spirit are all about glorifying the Son (Jesus Christ). That is why Jesus Christ owns the words of God so as to be named "The Word of God". It is why all the authority and power of God has been given to Him. Again, all things the Father has are His, just like the Scriptures tell us, but as we know because we know Him!
The Good News is that He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone opens the door He will come into them and eat with them and then with Him. You can get to know Him!! But it is going to take some faith in Him, and how are you going to hear from Him if you don't believe He is the Word who took on flesh and went to the cross for you??? Sadly, to believe in Him you have to believe He is there to talk to you! And if a person does not understand that He is the Word of God are they even going to repent of their ways and understand so as to seek Him?
How are they really going to know about how He doesn't speak on His own authority, but He speaks on the sole and complete authority of God, so He is One with God, the Word of God, and God!! Which is exactly what the start of the gospel of John explains!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
The Oneness doctrine does not change the fact that they are 2 Beings. Yes, Jesus speaks with the authority that God gave him. That doesn’t make him God.
Yeah it does!! Being One with God makes you God - because you and God are One. The Bible explains that!! So, if you going to even pretend to believe the Bible is right you need to have some understanding of that. Those who knew the Christ and listen to Him and wrote the books of the Bible - the Word of God tried to explain it in their writings!! Of course that if plainly obvious!!
Again - Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
Clearly that verse explains there are two beings/persons and the One person who is called "the Word" was in the beginning with the other and that person called "the Word", and the person called "the Word" was God!!
That is what is written - trying to think what is written is not what is written to fit your conclusion doesn't make sense. Your conclusion has to fit what is written otherwise you don't even believe what is written. And Jesus covered that problem with the Jews - and showing that Moses had written about Him too, and that they didn't believe what Moses wrote either! So how were they going to believe in Him, and get His words?
Jn 5:47 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Of course, they probably didn't understand because they didn't even know Him who stood in front of them was the same Person who talked to Moses and who Moses was writing about. Let me give you an example of this from Moses's writings.
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great.”
Now look closely - Moses gives and account how a person 'the Lord' came to Abram in a vision and was speaking personally to Abram personally - and the name given to that person was 'the word of the Lord' and not just 'the Lord'!! Moses could have wrote "The Lord came to Abram in a vision, but he didn't. He wrote 'the word of the Lord' came to Abram - so the name of the One who came to Abram was 'the word of the Lord' I mean 'a word' does not speak but people speak words. So like "Who" is the name of the first baseman in Abbot and Costello's comedy routine "Who's of First", so "The Word" is the name of the Lord who spoke to Abram!
A bit later in the chapter we read:
Gen 15: 5,6 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
So, when in John when we read "In the beginning was the Word" it refers to that same One who talked to Abram in a vision saying "Do not fear Abram..."!!
He, the One who talked Abram was called "The Word" by Moses! - and all those prophets back then knew He was called "The Word".
Num 3:16 So Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD, just as he had been commanded.
Now a person might read the above verse and think it means according to the words the Lord spoke to them, but it means according to God who they knew as "the word of the Lord"
That is why when writing Revelation, which is a revelation about Jesus Christ, we read:
Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
You should understand that the same person we call Jesus Christ has always been called "The Word of God" or "the word of the Lord' which is the same thing, but it just has not been reveal to everyone!!
Gal 3:22,23 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
I don't mean to be condescending, but I mean to help people find the Jesus Christ and get to know Him as Abram, Moses, and John knew Him!
Many are still looking to the Scriptures and leaning on their own understanding of the Scriptures as opposed to actually seeking to hear from Jesus Christ! Of course to hear Him speak to you via His Holy Spirit you are going to have to believe that He "The Word of God" is actually near you to be inquired of. He in fact is there and John passed on this information from the Lord:
Rev 3:19-22 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
In the above verse, if anyone cares to believe Him, He is just standing there talking with His voice and anyone can with faith that He is who He says and is doing what He says, can just hear from Him and open up to Him!! That is the Good News!! Everyone is and anyone, so everyone could just believe He is there and start seek Him and His voice and they could find that Person who is "The Word of God". You just have to realize that He speaks to us via His Holy Spirit (the third person in the trinity), but the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own initiative - instead He takes the words of God which were given to the Son of God (Jesus Christ the Word of God) and the Holy Spirit speaks them to you spirit!
So God is One God because all things the Father has, including the very words of God, were given to the Son, and the Holy Spirit takes those words of God from the Son, who is the Word of God because He owns the words of God, and the Spirit speaks them to your spirit! That is how we have One God in three persons, but to really understand that you have to start seeking Him and listening to Him. That is the case because understanding and knowledge does not come from leaning on your own understanding but from hear from His voice!!
Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Do you not yet realize that I have gone all over the Bible giving you a study about the Word of God, but that understanding came from listening to Him speaking to me via the Holy Spirit!
So, I say to anyone asking - we need to study our Bible with our Lord and Teacher, Jesus Christ!! He will speak and teach you by talking to you like any teacher would do!! And like most teachers, our Teacher (Jesus Christ the Word of God) has a textbook which we call the Bible. Are we really going to try and study it without our Teacher and His words spoken to us personally??
Yet what do you read on this thread? Personally, I think I read about too many Christian looking to learn by leaning on their own understanding and from other people! Of course, not all - but if someone doesn't even know that Jesus Christ's name is called "The Word of God" then isn't it obvious that they don't listen to Him, their Teacher!!
And that is why He personally told me that He was sending me to a people that should listen to me, but they won't listen to me because they don't listen to Him. Yeah - If tell them to seek Him and listen to Him and they don't and are not willing, then they can't listen to me telling them to listen to Him!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
A complete contrivance. Nowhere in Scripture is this notion. Are we God?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
There must be a part of subscribers to the man-is-god thesis that realize how weak the Biblical support is for their doctrine. John 1:1-2 does not even reference Jesus.
There is no "he" in John 1:1-2. Houtos is "this." This word was in the beginning, a god with God. To grasp the difference, see Psalm 82 and keep in mind Jesus used v 6 to justify his claim to be, not God, but the son of God. That is, you, me and Jesus are all gods, children of the Most High - but not the Most High True God. See the difference?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
2 points.
- Not every time the word "word" is used in Scripture does it refer to Jesus. See John 6:60.
- Rev 1:1 informs us that even after Jesus was resurrected, given all authority on Earth and heaven, sitting on God's throne in heaven, he is STILL not God. Who gives Jesus the revelation? God, in his unitarian nature.
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