Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Please construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement than Paul wrote, For us there is one God, the Father. Pretty strong anti-trinitarian.
How do you do bible study?
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Please construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement than Paul wrote, For us there is one God, the Father. Pretty strong anti-trinitarian.
Incredible - We already went over how Jesus, the child born to us, is called Everlasting Father! How Jesus Christ the Word of God who was in the beginning with God and God! How we are not to say in our heart who will ascend into heaven but that is to bring Christ down - so the Word of God we preach is near us - thereby again proving Jesus Christ is near us as the Word of God we preach. We covered how He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called 'The Word of God' -- all of which you deny and have to deny to keep leaning on your own understanding of you think is a 'strong anti-trinitarian' point of view. But even that is not surprising, because I also cover that you can't understanding by leaning on your understanding, but that understanding comes from His voice (which again comes from Jesus Christ the Word of God). I even covered who the Bible shows the Jesus Christ owns as a position given to Him from His Father, the words of God! So that child born to us, who is the Everlasting Father and Might God the Lord our God, but He is not your Lord not your Wonderful Counselor if you don't actually seek Him as the Word.
So Paul wrote about Him who He heard from (remember him asking who are you Lord and hearing that One Lord who was talking to Him was Jesus?) Moses wrote about the same One who Paul heard from explaining that He was near, but the people said let not God speak to us. He sheep hear His voice! Jesus even explained that He leads His sheep out with His voice, but unlike Paul who also wrote "for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” - How are you going to call on Him when you don't believe in Him? Or did you not also forget that Paul wrote:
Rm 10:16 However, they did not all heed the [good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”
and - Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
So you write" “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal One is our God, and the Eternal One is the only God., - and do everything you can to understand that that child born to us is Might God and the Eternal Father to us. You deny Him at every turn as opposed to listening to Him at every turn - because you don't even understand that He talks to us about every turn if we listen!
Is 30: 20:20 Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left.
Which brings up back to the topic of this thread - How do you study the Bible. The answer is obvious to those who hear Him. The correct answer is that we study the Bible with Him our Teacher!
Jesus, while talking gave an instruction - Mat 26:18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is near; I am to keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”
Can you understand that knowing Him means knowing Him as your Lord who gives instructions, and as 'The Teacher" who gives you information?
You have not shown any signs that I can see from reading your posts which indicate that you know Him your Teacher. You don't even seem to understand that He your Teacher (Jesus Christ who spoke to them then and can speak to you now because He is near) has the words of God for you personally. Perhaps you might want to consider actually seek Him, because given Him lip service simply will not do!
Is 30:01 Woe to the rebellious children,” declares the LORD, “Who execute a plan, but not Mine,
And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit,
Is 29: 13Then the Lord said,
“Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD; In order to add sin to sin;
,
Thompson Chain Reference Bible, perhaps a dictionary containing the greek and Hebrew words like Strongs Concordance or Vines Dictionary, sometimes can get free commentaries from use of a program called E-sword (free commentary downloads), prayer and help by and through the Holy Spirit. Use whatever material you have and read it out to yourself so you don't forget what you may have found out from searching the Bible and may Jesus who is our wisdom guide you by the Spirit of Christ with-in as you go along to go into studying about any topic or subject.
danielinpersia
New Member
I don't have access to commentaries here, though I did get a Study Bible (ESV Global Study Bible) from someone who sent abroad.
I generally study the Bible book by book, usually by starting by reading the background of the book/epistle for context beforehand.
I also listen to the audio bible in my commute to and from work.
I generally study the Bible book by book, usually by starting by reading the background of the book/epistle for context beforehand.
I also listen to the audio bible in my commute to and from work.
@danielinpersia It's clearly a blessing to you that prayerful reading and study of the Scriptures is such a priority for you.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
1st, not an answer to my challenge.
2nd, Jesus is not referenced in the verse referring to a child called Father. We went over how wrong you are to use this as "support" given the entire NT does not identify Jesus as Father one time. Now, please construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement than Paul wrote, For us there is one God, the Father. I dare you.
Jesus is the answer to you problem!! I have told you that over and over and that you need to listen to Him. Which is exactly what Paul was saying also. He is obviously the child born to us - have you not even seen a manger seen at Christmas time. Everyone who has spent much time in the USA understands, even the the most admit unbeliever, that the child born to us, according to Christians and their Bible, is Jesus Christ!! And I have still not seen you tell me who you think that child is!
And as for your challenge - I am not concern with your challenge but you soul. That is why I tell you to seek Jesus Christ, who according to the Bible is the Word of God! We went over this, and I went over it specifically so that you might seek Him, and the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God because His Father gave Him the words of God. So when Abram heard the word of God spoken to him, it was Jesus Christ, who spoke them to Him. When the prophets of old heard God speaking to them, it was the One who we call Jesus Christ who was speaking to them. He as always been the Word of God. His Father gave Him the words of God which the Son spoke and things came into being - which is why it is written that all things came into being through Him. That is how God the Father and the Son are One, and since God is spirit it all happen via the Holy Spirit of God, thus making it Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just like Christians have come to know from long ago.
Moses and Abram knew it, which is why Moses writing about Abram wrote:
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great.”
A word does not speak, but is something spoken, so "the word of the LORD" is the name of the One who came and spoke to Abram, saying, ...
Except for the fact that the Christ had not yet gone to the cross redeeming man; It could have been written 'After these things Jesus Christ came to Abram in a vision saying ....
Of Jesus Christ it is written, Rev 19:13 "He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."
But perhaps that has not been given or revealed to you yet, even though it is plain to read in the Bible?
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But it is not hard to receive Jesus Christ by faith. Anyone can, and it only take a very small amount of faith to move that mountain!
Rev 3:19, 20 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
So I am not reproving or challenging you to seek Jesus Christ and listen to Him, to argue with you but to get you to seek Him. When you listen to Him it starts becoming pretty clear pretty fast that He indeed has the words of God for you personally!! Christians (His sheep know His voice), that still small voice we pick up in words in our hearts. And who He who speaks to us the words of God obviously is God, but we also find out that those words come from the Father to Him, and from Him to us via the Holy Spirit, which is why we pick up His words in our spirit. So, we understand that there is One God that consists of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - but unbelievers or perhaps new believers, or maybe believers who are a bit dull of hearing because they don't practice hearing and seeking Him might not fully understand this. They should! They should be seeking and listening to the Lord their God everyday called Today, but we too often don't. Still, we don't get adamant that He who we do hear from when we hear is not the Word of God. We know that He is the child born to us, which is why you see all those manger scenes at Christmas time! We absolutely believe that He (Jesus Christ) came down out of heaven took on flesh as the child born to us, and went to the cross for our sins.
So when we read - Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
We know that the Word is Jesus Christ! We understand perfectly well that the Word (Jesus Christ is God) just like it is written. We know that Jesus Christ (The Word of God) dwelt with men, those disciple of His. I hear from Him a dozen or more times a day. He often starts talking to me the moment I wake up, because His mercy is new everyday and He loves me. I usually talk with Him in the shower. I try to sit down in my favorite chair, pray the Lord's prayer and then listen to Him after the shower. And He often asks me to open my Bible to go over something with me then, but not always. It is not a religious thing, it is a relationship.
So, if you want to think of these writings back and forth as a "challenge" I challenge you to start seeking Him and His voice. It is written that all those who seek find!! When you find Him you will get your answers!! You will understand that He is One with the Father, just like is explained in the Bible! The part you can't explain and want to ignore. You will find that since He is One with the Father He is God the Son, even the Word of God and God who was in the beginning with God, just like is written, but you want to ignore because you can't explain it. You will find that He indeed took on flesh, and was the One whom is depicted in the manger scenes at Christmas time.
You will find out soooooo much more, and personal stuff too. Perhaps you never thought about it, but Christmas Eve is actually a tough day to look back on for Him. He had a decision to make at that time, when He had a choice to take on flesh which would mean the cross, as He knew then. As bad as it was right before the cross, when He was sweeting blood, it was actually worse for Him right before He took on flesh. It was almost done right before the cross, but coming down from heaven meant the cross and coming down out of heaven as the King of kings to become that child born to us. We don't have a clue how He feels until we start talking to Him! And even then we don't know much about what He feels because He still to this day only says and does what the Father tells Him to do and say. So we really don't come to know Him when we talk to Him, but rather we come to know the Father through Him. Still, the Father wants us to know what He, the Son, did and does for us. The Father wants the Son to get the glory!!
Still, a person can't get even a little grasp on all this unless they actually start conversing with the Lord our God, Jesus Christ. Indeed, the only way you come to really know about the Father is through Jesus Christ, the Word of God!!
So, since you want to make it about a challenge, take my challenge and start seeking Jesus Christ by faith that He is there!! That is what the Bible tells you to do, and since you pretend to believe that the Bible is correct, start seeking Jesus Christ by faith, and listening to what He has to say to you not just for the challenge but because it will help you!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
The fact that you are invested in this interpretation of this OT verse shows how absent from Scripture, especially the NT, your doctrine is.
God’s Anointed is obviously NOT the child in Is 9:6 for it is not even a prophecy. It refers to a child who has been born in the time of Isaiah, 700 years before the birth of Christ.
There is no verse that says simply that Jesus is God but there are many verses that say the Father alone is God. This is because God - who we relate to as Father - is the only God, which means Jesus is not God.
I am invested in Jesus Christ. You ought to get to know Him. He is the Word of God, that child born to us, who was with God in the beginning with God, and was God, just like John wrote, and John walked and talked with Him even while He was in the flesh, so John knew His name was "The Word of God". You don't know that, believe that, and to believe in Him would mean you believe that like John did. And like Isaiah did. And like Abraham did. And like Saul/Paul did, after Saul asked, "Who are you Lord" and heard the response. So why don't you know that Jesus Christ the Son of God is One with God and is God?
Deut 29:4 “Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
Deaut 42:20 You have seen many things, but you do not observe them; Your ears are open, but none hears.
Jer 5:21 ‘Now hear this, O foolish and senseless people, Who have eyes but do not see; Who have ears but do not hear.
Jer 6:10 To whom shall I speak and give warning That they may hear?
Behold, their ears are closed And they cannot listen.
Behold, the word of the LORD has become a reproach to them; They have no delight in it.
Did you really think I was stuck on that verse, considering all the verses I have brought up to you? Understand the above verses and you will understand! I am stuck on Jesus Christ, and listening to Him, but it truly seems that 'none hears'! Thus the word of the Lord (Jesus Christ) has become a reproach to them - just like the prophets of old explained and the authors of the New Testament also. Paul explain that you should not say in your heart that Jesus Christ was either dead of in a far-off place called heaven, but that you should believe that the word of God was near you, so why are you not listening to Jesus Christ, but are instead denying that He is the Word of God who was that child born to us who John called the Word of God who was with God and was God? Is it not the exact reason explained in the verses above. Yet the good new is in the following verse, if you care to believe.
Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
But that has already been explained to you, hasn't it!!
If people could listen to him and hear him without reading the bible they would be doing. But too bad that isn't the case.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
But Jesus is not God. In Rev 3:12 he referenced his God 4 times in that one verse. Odd thing for a God to do, refer to his God over and over again, isn't it?
You are not invested in Jesus Christ but in trinitarianism, who makes the son out to be our father, who alone is god. If you did any Bible study at all, you'd know that the trinity is not in the Bible and nowhere does it say Jesus is God. It says repeatedly who Jesus is, the Son of God. But clearly, the word of God means nothing to you.
Some do hear from Him!! They are His sheep - and they do hear from Him!! Some better than others, because some seek Him more than others! He hasn't changed, and things havn't changed!
The Lord has asked me to do many things for Him over the last 20 years I have known Him. One of the more interesting things He had me do was help in a Christian healing ministry. It is a huge ministry that operates in about 3,000 churches internationally. When someone came into the ministry for prayer, they would fill out a paper, which got folded. We were given the folded paper and prayed and asked for the Lord to give us some information before we unfolded the paper and looked at it. We then were asked to write down what we got (heard and saw with our spiritual eyes and ears). And we got things from the Lord. Perhaps it was a vision but more often we heard some words from the Lord our God, Jesus Christ, via His Holy Spirit. In fact, those accustomed to hearing from Him would not only be told what to put on the paper, but also what we needed to pray for and how to proceed. That is why we call Jesus Christ - Lord - because He gives us instructions via that small voice of His.
And this is what the Bible explains!! That the word is near you. That you can find it in our heart, and sometimes even in your mouth, because the Holy Spirit puts His (Jesus Christ's) words in our spirit. Which is why we find them in our hearts and mouth!!!
So the problem has always been that people don't listen to Him, but the could. He wants His people to listen to Him!! If you read and study your Bible it would be impossible not to read information about this!!!
So why do people not hear from Him, thought they could??
Of course faith that He is there to hear from is one of the problems!!
Jesus explained that He would never leave us, so if we believe in Him it means believing that He is always with us! And what do we think - that He is soooooooo rude as to not answer us if we ask Him a question?? He is love, so not rude! So we just don't believe in Him like we think we do - which is one of the reasons people don't hear from Him.
Another reason is that we don't feel like He would talk to us - sinners!! That is why He went to the cross and forgave us our sins. He made a way through our feeling that we are not worthy for God to talk to. The fact is that we are not worthy, but He loves us so much that He personally tore down that curtain of sin that keep us from Him, so that while we are not worthy He, Jesus Christ the Word of God, is the worthy and paid the sacrifice to make us worthy to hear from God via Him, our Lord Jesus Christ. But do we believe that??
Helping other Christians understand the forgiveness of God was a huge part of the healing ministry that we did. We got them hearing from the Lord!!! It was easy to do!! It just involved giving them a tiny bit of faith to ask the Lord a question. We would just pray over them and have the personally ask Jesus Christ something like, "Jesus Christ, how do you feel about me?" - and then get them to consider what came to them, like we had done when dealing with the folded paper. And they got things (visions, words, impressions) from Him!!
Now there are other reasons, and the biggest of which is not forgiving others!! The most common instructions we heard from the Lord in the healing ministry was to lead the person through forgiveness. Anyone who has worked in a Christian healing ministry surely knows this! It is written that if we don't forgive others then God won't forgive us - and this little fact really causes us problems!! That is why we find in the Lord's prayer, forgive us our debts as we forgive others. That not forgiving others is a reason many have trouble hearing from the Lord.
Now I can go on - there are other things that dan get in our way of hearing the Lord, but He can get through it all!! So we tell people to seek Him. He said:
Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
It is also written that all those who seek find - so honestly the only thing that keeps us from hearing Him is our failure to seek Him!!!
Yes, you have to seek Him by faith. Yes, forgiveness from Him and to others is extremely important - but if you seek Him with whatever little bit of faith you can muster up (like a mustard seed amount) you will find Him, and the fact that He was always there knocking at your door!!
People are hearing from Him today. Indeed, "Today" is the day we are supposed to be hearing from Him!!
Should we not seek Him, and listen to what He says?
John listened to Him and wrote:
Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. He was in the beginning with God
Which explains the issue clearly, but if you don't believe John those who wrote the Bible how are you going to hear His words?????
Jesus, that child who told on flesh is named "The Word of God" (Rev 19:13) because He has the words of God (Jn 16) and the Holy Spirit takes those words from Him and speaks them to your spirit. So when you hear God you hear "The Word of God" who is the One we call Jesus Christ and our Lord, which indeed He is but only if we get our instructions from Him - meaning hearing Him who is the Word that was with God and is God.
So if you find a referencing his God, He it ties in with Jn 1:1,2 where He was in the beginning with God, but He is also God as read in the very same verse. Yet understanding is not achieved by leaning on your understanding but by listening to His voice, which comes via the Holy Spirit who He sends to us who actually do believe in Him. Any can let Him in by simply seeking Jesus and what He has to say (Rev 3:20) but nobody will get true understanding unless they starting seeking Him and what He has to personally say to them, becuase again, that comes from His voice.
Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
So from what we can clearly see is that someone doesn't understand How Jesus Christ is the Word of God and thus how He was with God in the beginning and is God. And we also see that they don't understand about how His words, which are the words of God spoken to us, come through the Holy Spirit who always glorifies Jesus Christ as Lord, the One who gives us instructions. And since His sheep do hear His voice we know why they don't understand - it's because they don't seek Jesus Christ!!! His sheep hear His voice, but not everyone does!
Because we listen to the Holy Spirit of God, who does not speak on His own initiative, we know Jesus Christ and know He is God!
Because we know Jesus Christ, who does and says only what the Father tells Him; when we hear from Jesus Christ (God) we hear from the Father!
And so, because we hear we understand that God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirt) is one God. So when someone tries to tells us that God is not three persons in One God, we instantly understand that they don't listen to God - which is to say they don't hear the words or God spoke to them via the Holy Spirit who got them from the Son (Jesus Christ) because He owns them, because the Father gave His words to the Son. We know they don't know Jesus Christ, so don't hear the words of the Father which came down through the Son and the Holy Spirit to us personally! We know Jesus Christ, but they don't. We know that He is the Word of God, because we listen to Him, but they don't. It is extremely obvious to us, because we His sheep do know Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the Word of God, and as our Lord God who has the words of God for us, but they don't understand because they lean on their understanding instead of actually seeking Jesus Christ and His words for us!
So we preach Jesus Christ as the Word of God and God, just like John did, but they can't understand because they won't accept our testimony, and 'our' includes the testimony of those like and including John and all others who wrote the Scriptures. That failure to listen and get to personally know Jesus Christ is going to mean hell for them! We don't want that so we take time to try and lead them to Jesus Chrsit our saviour, for their sakes not ours!!
I have a business to run. These longs posts which explain it all take my time when I could be making money for me and my family. Yet if I could get someone to actually start seeking Him, I know God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) will give them the free gift of salvation! Jesus means God's salvation! I mean the name Jesus actually means Gods salvation, which is why we call the Christ, Jesus. But He has a name, and His name is called the Word of God - that very One who came down out of heaven and took on flesh. The One who suffered death on the cross at the hands of men who claimed they believed in God. But being God He defeated death and rose again back to His place on the throne as King of kings, and Lord or lord.
So who can defeat death except for God? And who is it that own the words of God except for God? And who sits on the throne of God except God? Note: it is not the throne of God if God is not sitting on it!! It is God sitting their that makes it the throne of God! And all things created were created through the Word of God, Jesus Christ. This is all explained in the Bible, and so the person rejecting all these things has also rejected Jesus Christ. You don't believe in someone if you don't believe He is who He is - and He is the Word who was with God in the beginning and who is God - just like it is written!!
So is it a believer who can't understand how the One who was with God in the beginning and is God might reference His Father as God, and yet stll be God? That simply points to the fact that the Son and the Father are One God, and listening to the Holy Spirit bring you His words will complete the understanding of what we in Christianity refer to as the Trinity. Failure to do so results in not understanding the words your read in the Bible, and the Bible explains this to you!
Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
Is 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children,” declares the LORD,
“Who execute a plan, but not Mine,
And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit,
Is 30: 9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;
In order to add sin to sin;
Rev 3:19-21‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
So, if they don't listen they cannot understand how all believers sit on the throne of the Father! That is to say when we listen and do what God tells us we are under the full authority of God and become one with Him!! Which is what Jesus prayed for!
Jn 17: 22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
It is all perfectly clear to me, because I listen to Him. When I listen to Him and do what He says I become part of what God is doing (the body of Christ) and that makes me one with God, just like the Holy Spirit who does not speak on His own initiative, like the Christ who only says and does what the Father tells Him. So the body of Christ is the Body of God, but only if we listen and do what He says - and frankly we Christians also know that too often we don't just do what He says!!
For example - I wrote this because He told me to write. He has gone over all this with me many times, but I didn't get it down word for word, like Jesus would have done. But I did ask Him and hear from Him many times during writing this, so I am getting better but I am still a work in progress. That is a phrase real Christians really understand. We are learning, and so are willing to learn. Which is a reason we seek Him. The false sons refuse to listen. That is the difference!!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
LOL I just referenced a verse where he referred to his God 4 times. What does that tell you, other than he is not God?
It does not say that He is not God, as in one with God!!! It only says that He knows God the Father!!
But you didn't seek Jesus Christ for that answer, did you?
Find out what the Word of God tells you, and stop leaning on your own understanding!!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Exacly what I am doing and you are not. Mark 1:1 says Jesus is the son of God. This is repeated nearly 40 times. And he is not said to be what you claim. So, you are relying on your own understanding in opposition to the actual word of God.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The bible says that Jesus is the Son of God, because He is : "Given"
"for God so loved the world that He "Gave"....
What you are still not able to realize is that Jesus existed as "the Bread come down from Heaven"..
And... Jesus said...."i am from ABOVE< and you are from Below'.
See that?
You have to understand this..... and if you ever do, then you will realize that before Jesus was given as a SON... .He pre-existed without a body, as : John 1.. The WORD was GOD.
This is why John 1:10 and Colossians 1:16, refer to His CREATION ability.
A.) Only God is the Creator, and that is the "Word' of Creation ability.
Jesus is the WORD made FLESH...
B.) Only GOD can give the Holy Spirit, and God did, in Genesis 2:7 and the God Man did also in John 20:22
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus said..."you believe in God, .. believe also in Me".
Jesus said..>"If you've seen ME< you've seen the Father".
Jesus the God man, was created inside a Virgin's womb by God the Holy Spirit.
Prior to God wrapping Himself in Human flesh as the "Son , the "2nd Adam", given as John 3:16..for the sin of the world.. Jesus existed pre-incarnate as .... "Let US.... make man... in OUR image". as the WORD...who was not yet, "manifested in the Flesh".
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