How does the Theory of Penal Substitution Atonement necessitate the Cross?

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John Caldwell

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Thanks for the clarification of the OP question.

Agree the PSA is purporting a confusing irrelevant mix.

While What ALL God Does is purposed and Relevant...God has revealed the paramount importance of ORDER and "His WAY" of how He accomplishes His ORDER and His WAY and how human men have been Given an Example, (OT by hearing/ NT by hearing And Seeing)...for human men to mimic, and Accomplish Gods ORDER and WAY.)
Which results in the human man becoming Accepted by God as Perfect-ed. (Not perfect, but Perfected, by Gods Power).

God Bless,
Taken
I think perhaps the reason PSA is such a mix is it was an attempt at reforming doctrines that were not exactly worked out (at least to a degree one would consider it "biblical" or from Scripture itself). All PSA does, ultimately, is substitute justice for honor in the pre-16th century RCC view. BUT being Protestant it has additional assumptions which it cannot meet (like sola scriptura). In the end PSA is held on faith, not in God or Scripture but in the Reformed Tradition.

I think that most of us hold some things this way, but hopefully we reexamine those views and either hold them legitimately or change them. As a child I was taught a doctrine of the Trinity. I can't say I understood it back then. After studying I now have a more firm grasp on that doctrine and can call it my own.

Perhaps PSA is like that. It is a corrupt mixture of secular philosophy, RCC religious thought, and Scripture. I think it was worked out well enough for its time (at the beginning of the period) but by now it should have been corrected. That said, it is not the worst way to start. The gospel still shines through, not because of PSA but despite it.
 

justbyfaith

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Again, the question that I ask is:

Should the officer who killed George Floyd be acquitted of his crime if he merely says, "I won't do it again"?

On his day of judgment, should he be allowed into heaven as a murderer (one who has killed another) apart from Jesus taking the penalty for his sin?
 

Enoch111

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Christ suffered and died at the hands of the world (at the hands of wicked men), not at the hands of God.
More FALSE DOCTRINE from John Caldwell. You are trying to subvert the meaning of the cross and the finished work of Christ. At the same time you are calling God a liar. You are also calling Christ a liar.
 

John Caldwell

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More FALSE DOCTRINE from John Caldwell. You are trying to subvert the meaning of the cross and the finished work of Christ. At the same time you are calling God a liar. You are also calling Christ a liar.
Except Scripture does not support your theory. That is the problem, Enoch111. You offer a defense for a theory that is not even in the Bible.

No, I am not calling God or Christ a liar. I am saying that God is competent and has given us Scripture without any need to add.

When you add your theory to the Bible and then treat your theory as if it were Scripture then you are placing yourself in the role of God. Do you believe that you are God? Did God somehow speak to you in a vision and give you a special revelation, telling you that He had Peter lie in Acts while whispering the "truth" in your ear?

Why do you believe it is appropriate to add to Scripture, Enoch111?

OR do you even grasp that you are adding to Scripture???? (I guess that's the more important question....are you literate enough to realize you have added to God's Word or are you merely indoctrinated)
 
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John Caldwell

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Again, the question that I ask is:

Should the officer who killed George Floyd be acquitted of his crime if he merely says, "I won't do it again"?

On his day of judgment, should he be allowed into heaven as a murderer (one who has killed another) apart from Jesus taking the penalty for his sin?
If the officer dies and God supernaturally makes him alive, and this is in God's court, I do not see why not.

On the day of Judgment the murder, the slanderer, the liar, will not be allowed in. The old man must die.

Apparently you missed the email - you must be born again - this is the righteousness of God manifested APART FROM the law (hint...that is a Bible verse).

If you punch me in the noise who do I have to punch in order to forgive you?
 
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justbyfaith

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If you punch me in the noise who do I have to punch in order to forgive you?
The real question is, who has to punch me in the nose for justice to be satisfied.

Thankfully for me, Jesus took that punch in the nose on my behalf.
 

John Caldwell

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The real question is, who has to punch me in the nose for justice to be satisfied.

Thankfully for me, Jesus took that punch in the nose on my behalf.
And the answer is no one. It could have been accidental, but it'd be up to you to forgive me because it was not a sin against God.

The problem with PSA is it has assumed a 16th century humanistic philosophy of justice (a worldly, secular idea of justice) and attributed it to Divine Justice. Even here, though, Scripture tells us specifically that we are looking at the righteousness of God manifested apart from (not "a part" but "apart"...one word) the law.

The issue is PSA ultimately misses the point of the gospel. Thankfully the gospel still shines through, but what is missed is important.

Can you provide even one verse that states God punished Jesus? No, of course you can't (it was a rhetorical question). Why do you believe that God left such an important doctrine as Reconciliation (a main topic of Scripture) out of the Bible itself (out of the text)?

The answer is He did not. PSA is not in the Bible (it is not in the text of Scripture) but it's adherents cling to the hope it is somehow taught between the lines. That is false. Reconciliation is spelled out in Scripture. There is no need to add to what is there.

I hate to burst your bubble, but God did not hide a secret truth of the cross to be decoded int he 16th Century by Calvinists. I believe PSA is a false doctrine. The best you can do is say you believe it true, taught by the Bible, but actually absent from the text of Scripture itself. That is simply too subjective for such an important doctrine.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Yes, Anthony, I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you.

I can tell by your conclusion it must be "double speak" that this topic has confused you. It is not a difficult concept to grasp, but perhaps the way it was worded hampered your understanding. I'm not always the most articulate, so maybe your failure to grasp the topic was due to how it was presented. My apologies if that is the case.

Redemption has penal and substitution aspects. Christ shared in our iniquity (the wages of sin are death, that is, the consequences or penalty for sin is death). This is by definition a punishment (a penalty inflicted; penalty here is “a disadvantage or hardship due to some action). Christ died for our sins. This is substitutionary, not in that Christ took our punishment instead of us but on our behalf. Rather than dealing with us on an individual basis Christ became the representative of mankind and experienced the wages of sin.

Think of God as One who interacts with man in covenants and you will come closer to a biblical understanding. The New Covenant is superior than the Old Covenant. Christ is the “last Adam”, that is, Christ is now the representative of mankind. God was, on the cross, reconciling man to Himself. Now begins the plea that men be reconciled to God through Christ.

So as you can hopefully grasp, even those who reject the Theory of Penal Substitution Atonement affirm that there are penal and substitution aspects.

Where is PSA different? It assumes God was punishing Christ. It assumes Christ was being punished with our punishment instead of us. It assumes a judicial philosophy it cannot defend as divine justice. It empties the meaning of the cross and replaces it with humanism. It elevates man and human sin over God. It denies that God is just to forgive upon repentance and must first punish sins in order to forgive them. It applies a flawed law-court system (a 16th century law court system) to the work of the Cross, assuming someone must take a loss for a crime but never grasping that the offense was not one of loss.

False doctrines are typically comprised mostly of truths. It is the little tweaks that make them twist the truths into a lie. PSA is no exception. It changes small concepts, small words (like “for” to “instead of”; “wages” to “punishment”; etc.).

I hope that helped you grasp the concept.

John
You cannot stop yourself from lying can you?
I did not post this anywhere .
You substitute my name for another poster.
I knew it right away because I do not post to dishonest posters like you.
This is the kind of falsehood that you do on a regular basis.
It was not a mistake, it was a deliberate lie. Very pathetic and shameful.
Readers view post 32 and see who actually posted the words
. This is the kind of posting we get from your friend John Caldwell.
 

John Caldwell

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You cannot stop yourself from lying can you?
I did not post this anywhere .
You substitute my name for another poster.
I knew it right away because I do not post to dishonest posters like you.
This is the kind of falsehood that you do on a regular basis.
It was not a mistake, it was a deliberate lie. Very pathetic and shameful.
Readers view post 32 and see who actually posted the words
. This is the kind of posting we get from your friend John Caldwell.
FB_IMG_1591234014182.jpg
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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wrong.

Nothing in that post is a lie. I am stating my views just as you state yours.

You expressed an inability to grasp how someone could say that there are penal and substitutionary aspects of the Atonement while rejecting the Theory of Penal Substitution.

To you that was just "double speak" as the differences escaped your comprehension. As you said, you just could not make sense of it even though it is an orthodox position held by the majority of Christians.

I explained to you how that is possible because I do believe there are obvious penal and substitutionary aspects to the Atonement while rejecting PSA as a false doctrine. That was not a lie. That us what I believe.

Based on you resulting to false accusations and insults, I take it you still do not grasp the concept.

That is fine, but you have no ground to evaluate other views if you cannot understand those views. It was probably a poor decision for you to engage the topic as you seem ill equipped to grasp the subject matter.

You need to stop having a meltdown every time someone states a view contrary to your own. Your post is not befitting a Christian.
Read post 32 you liar.
It's not my post.
I have no interest in your apostasy and trail of lies.
I have not given my view so it would be hard to get meltdown when no one answered.me,lol.
But we know you have an agenda and it is becoming more obvious to people.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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God is just to condemn Jesus in our place in order that we might not be condemned.

It is the DIVINE EXCHANGE that enables us to even be saved; for without it we would all be condemned: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of the Lord.

His righteous blood applied to us (which carries the appropriation of His perfect life to our lives) is what saves us.

God the Father looks down at us and sees the righteous blood of Christ (Romans 4:7-8); He sees the perfect life of Jesus when He looks at us.

I know that this is sound doctrine as I have been taught it; and that therefore Titus 1:9 applies.

Tit 1:9, Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.



That doesn't make any sense. But maybe I'm missing something and hopefully you can explain it to me.

How is it that you deny penal substutionary atonement and can then turn around and say that there are penal and substitutionary aspects to atonement? If Christ experienced the suffering and death of a sinner, and this was not for His own sins, whose sins was it for if not for the sins of the whole world?
You are correcting the errors of John Caldwell once again.
In his disturbed condition he accuses me of part of this post.You hit a nerve?
False witness seems to be his gift,but I did not see that listed in the gifts of the Spirit.
Go away John Caldwell. Your lies and slanders are not welcome here.
 

John Caldwell

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Read post 32 you liar.
It's not my post.
I have no interest in your apostasy and trail of lies.
I have not given my view so it would be hard to get meltdown when no one answered.me,lol.
But we know you have an agenda and it is becoming more obvious to people.

That doesn't make any sense. But maybe I'm missing something and hopefully you can explain it to me.


o_Oo_O
How? Double talk, carnal Philosophy, turning from truth:oops::(:eek:
I see. The problem is you still have not grasped how to quote posts. Look at your post (#36). Comparing it to post #32 it is a jumble of your words and unattributed quotes in a quote and another member's words in the body of your post. It is a mess.

I did assume that your post reflected your thoughts. I forgot you were challenged by the "reply" feature of these boards.

BUT you assumed I was lying when I was not. What I offered is an answer to the other member AND a correction to your misunderstanding that it was "double talk" or "carnal philosophy" or "turning from truth". So you also did not grasp what most of Christianity has held for two millennia.

This is, however, yet another example of you having a meltdown and making false accusations based on assumptions and misunderstanding.
 

John Caldwell

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You are correcting the errors of John Caldwell once again.
In his disturbed condition he accuses me of part of this post.You hit a nerve?
False witness seems to be his gift,but I did not see that listed in the gifts of the Spirit.
Go away John Caldwell. Your lies and slanders are not welcome here.
You do realize that you presented those words AS YOUR OWN in post#36....right?

You need to learn how to use the quote feature, Anthony.

There are a couple ways of doing this. You can simply use the +quote at the bottom right of the post you want to quote. Or you can hit "post reply" and that will quote the entire post (you can remove what you do not want posted).

But you need to stop making assumptions. If there was an error (if you were not repeating what another member said as your own view) then it was because you have yet to grasp how these boards work insofar as quoting other people.

I forgive you for the insults, false accusations, assumptions, and slanders. I look forward to the day you spiritually outgrow this type of behavior and can discuss things in a Christ-like manner with those who do not share your theology. Until then, you are forgiven (by me).

Please try to control your emotions and deal with the subject at hand. You do not know me and have no right to make statements about me or anyone else on these boards. Your assumptions have proved less than accurate, so if you aspire to be a psychic my suggestion is not to quit your day job.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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I see. The problem is you still have not grasped how to quote posts. Look at your post (#36). Comparing it to post #32 it is a jumble of your words and unattributed quotes in a quote and another member's words in the body of your post. It is a mess.

I did assume that your post reflected your thoughts. I forgot you were challenged by the "reply" feature of these boards.

BUT you assumed I was lying when I was not. What I offered is an answer to the other member AND a correction to your misunderstanding that it was "double talk" or "carnal philosophy" or "turning from truth". So you also did not grasp what most of Christianity has held for two millennia.

This is, however, yet another example of you having a meltdown and making false accusations based on assumptions and misunderstanding.
My posts were in the red color in post 36.
I use colors to.show a distinction for slow people.
So you lie once again, as you took the words directly from post 32.
I have told you several times I have less than no interest in your dishonest posts.
I have said clearly I will ask you in this way

JonC what do you think about xyz?
If you do not seeme post that I am not posting to you.
Is that clear enough?
Your lies and slander need to stop. Go away John, it I want error I will read John Shelby Spong, or your posts.
 

justbyfaith

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It suffices me to say that there are penal and substitutionary aspects to the atonement; as you have freely admitted, @John Caldwell.

I still don't see how this can be if Penal Substitution is a lie.

I would ask you again if you think that the officer who killed George Floyd should be acquitted just because he says he won't do it again.

Should he be acquitted without anyone being punished even if there were a guarantee that he will never do it again?

Where is the justice for the victim's family (not to mention the victim himself)?
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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You do realize that you presented those words AS YOUR OWN in post#36....right?

You need to learn how to use the quote feature, Anthony.

There are a couple ways of doing this. You can simply use the +quote at the bottom right of the post you want to quote. Or you can hit "post reply" and that will quote the entire post (you can remove what you do not want posted).

But you need to stop making assumptions. If there was an error (if you were not repeating what another member said as your own view) then it was because you have yet to grasp how these boards work insofar as quoting other people.

I forgive you for the insults, false accusations, assumptions, and slanders. I look forward to the day you spiritually outgrow this type of behavior and can discuss things in a Christ-like manner with those who do not share your theology. Until then, you are forgiven (by me).

Please try to control your emotions and deal with the subject at hand. You do not know me and have no right to make statements about me or anyone else on these boards. Your assumptions have proved less than accurate, so if you aspire to be a psychic my suggestion is not to quit your day job.
Your fabricating more lies,that is your gift.
I know you as both a liar and a stalker, Go away John C.
No one has disagreed with my view,because I did not offer it,so yuh ou lie once again.
Stop.your shameful lying.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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It suffices me to say that there are penal and substitutionary aspects to the atonement; as you have freely admitted, @John Caldwell.

I still don't see how this can be if Penal Substitution is a lie.

I would ask you again if you think that the officer who killed George Floyd should be acquitted just because he says he won't do it again.

Should he be acquitted without anyone being punished even if there were a guarantee that he will never do it again?

Where is the justice for the victim's family (not to mention the victim himself)?
You have unraveled the double talk and diversion. You asked for scripture and were given none,lol.
He now diverts to make personal attacks on me who have not answered his posts. This is quite bizarre