How does the Theory of Penal Substitution Atonement necessitate the Cross?

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John Caldwell

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It suffices me to say that there are penal and substitutionary aspects to the atonement; as you have freely admitted, @John Caldwell.

I still don't see how this can be if Penal Substitution is a lie.

I would ask you again if you think that the officer who killed George Floyd should be acquitted just because he says he won't do it again.

Should he be acquitted without anyone being punished even if there were a guarantee that he will never do it again?

Where is the justice for the victim's family (not to mention the victim himself)?
It depends on how you define PSA. I am using the definition that I had provided (to be honest, I can't remember if it is on this thread, but it was from Pierced for My Transgressions. If it is not here and you need it I'll provide it - just let me know).

Scripture does (I believe obviously) speak of penal and substitutionary aspects of the Atonement. But PSA has a framework (or a narrative) in which these things fit (again, depending on how we define PSA). This is where I disagree with PSA. I do not believe the judicial philosophy John Calvin used to articulate the Atonement is correct or should be assumed. That said, you may not hold this philosophy and we may be speaking past one another.

I do not believe that divine justice is about justice for the victims family or even the victim. God is God. God is not a victim, so I do not understand this line of reasoning.

I am apprehensive to discuss this with you because I worry that you have the same attitude as @Anthony D'Arienzo . If you can assure me that you are not like him and can continue discussing this as Christians I'd love to look at our differences. There is a lot to discuss, but only as brothers in Christ.
 

justbyfaith

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It depends on how you define PSA. I am using the definition that I had provided (to be honest, I can't remember if it is on this thread, but it was from Pierced for My Transgressions. If it is not here and you need it I'll provide it - just let me know).

Scripture does (I believe obviously) speak of penal and substitutionary aspects of the Atonement. But PSA has a framework (or a narrative) in which these things fit (again, depending on how we define PSA). This is where I disagree with PSA. I do not believe the judicial philosophy John Calvin used to articulate the Atonement is correct or should be assumed. That said, you may not hold this philosophy and we may be speaking past one another.

I do not believe that divine justice is about justice for the victims family or even the victim. God is God. God is not a victim, so I do not understand this line of reasoning.

I am apprehensive to discuss this with you because I worry that you have the same attitude as @Anthony D'Arienzo . If you can assure me that you are not like him and can continue discussing this as Christians I'd love to look at our differences. There is a lot to discuss, but only as brothers in Christ.
At this point I'm open to what you have to say on the matter.

I believe that God is a God who cares about His people and listens to their cries for justice; so yes it is about the victim's family and the victim, getting justice from the throne of Jesus Christ on the day of judgment.

Scripture: Luke 18:1-8.
 

John Caldwell

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I am calm brother.
I do not like liars.
I do not like people who violate the 9th. Commandment.
I also do not like liars. But you have erroneously accused me of lying. I understand you may not have realized you posted another members words as your own, but that was an error on your part (you did not use the quote feature correctly). You should not have assumed I was lying. That was wrong of you.

See? You made a mistake in post 36. This led to you making a false accusation because you did not mean those words to be your own but a quote. So you accused me, falsely, of lying. Did I do that to you? No. I said you made a false accusation (which you did). I am not ascribing any motive behind your error.

You have to stop making assumptions, Anthony. You have a reputation across two boards for insulting other people, bullying others, and falsely accusing people by jumping to conclusions. I think you know people question your character, but I do not think you are a bad guy. You are like a bull in a china shop. You make assumptions and once they are in your head you go forward at full speed disregarding people you may hurt along the way.

All I am saying is slow down. Think about what you are doing, what you are saying. Stop making unwarranted assumptions. They are skewing how you interact with people. Pretend that Christ's commands are commands rather than suggestions and interact with people here as brothers and sisters...or at least as human beings.
 

John Caldwell

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At this point I'm open to what you have to say on the matter.

I believe that God is a God who cares about His people and listens to their cries for justice; so yes it is about the victim's family and the victim, getting justice from the throne of Jesus Christ on the day of judgment.

Scripture: Luke 18:1-8.
I agree with your point about justice, but I do not think it is the type of justice you may indicate. I do not think I will even care about getting justice for the thief who broke into my truck, or for people who lie about me and say all kinds of evil against me. But I do not know. It is worth discussing.
 

justbyfaith

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I agree with your point about justice, but I do not think it is the type of justice you may indicate. I do not think I will even care about getting justice for the thief who broke into my truck, or for people who lie about me and say all kinds of evil against me. But I do not know. It is worth discussing.
We are in fact told to forgive others as believers in Christ; and I also tend to forgive those who trespass against me.

But God is good; and He is a just judge.

So for those who have not forgiven those who have trespassed against them, I believe that the Lord will cater to their need to see divine retribution (see Romans 12:19).

As a matter of fact, the only thing that will satisfy their demand for justice concerning those who are forgiven, impaho, would be if Jesus died and took the penalty for their sins.

Because they would want the same provision for themselves in the case that they had sinned.
 

Angelina

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I do not understand where you are coming from @John Caldwell. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. What are you saying?
Your post:
The point of the cross is that the world DID condemn the righteous. God vindicated His Son, raising Him to life, given victor over the powers of sin and death – the powers of this world – that has held man in bondage.
That wasn't the point of the cross. Sin and death were not something that son needed to worry about as he was sinless. He had to make atonement for the sins of the people however, because all men sinned and fell short of the glory of God.
 

John Caldwell

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I do not understand where you are coming from @John Caldwell. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. What are you saying?
Your post:
That wasn't the point of the cross. Sin and death were not something that son needed to worry about as he was sinless. He had to make atonement for the sins of the people however, because all men sinned and fell short of the glory of God.
Hey Angelina,

I’m coming from a Christus Victor position.

Jesus did die for our sins. I absolutely believe this. But I do not believe that God punished Jesus for our sins instead of punishing us so that God could forgive our sins.

I’d say that God gave His Son as a sin offering. It was God’s will to “crush” Him (as Peter notes in Acts, Christ died by the hands of wicked men but this was by the predetermined plan of God). He was pierced for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities, the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.

What is missing from that is God punishing Christ. Chastening is a type of punishment, but it is discipline (not retributive punishment) which fits in Christ being “made perfect” by His suffering (completing the role of Christ, i.e., Messiah).

John
 

John Caldwell

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We are in fact told to forgive others as believers in Christ; and I also tend to forgive those who trespass against me.

But God is good; and He is a just judge.

So for those who have not forgiven those who have trespassed against them, I believe that the Lord will cater to their need to see divine retribution (see Romans 12:19).

As a matter of fact, the only thing that will satisfy their demand for justice concerning those who are forgiven, impaho, would be if Jesus died and took the penalty for their sins.

Because they would want the same provision for themselves in the case that they had sinned.
I agree to a lot here, brother.

Something that I have not fully grasped is our punishment. Peter tells us (tells Christians) that we will be judged according to our deeds. We are told that if we do not forgive those who have wronged God will not forgive us. So there seems to be a sense of punishment of some sort for the believer.

Where we disagree is I believe Christ died to free mankind from the bondage of sin and death. This is not concerning the Judgment. But because of Christ's work all judgment has been given to Christ. So I see two very different things here (more than that if we speak of willfully disobedient Christians).
 

Angelina

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John's post:
Jesus did die for our sins. I absolutely believe this. But I do not believe that God punished Jesus for our sins instead of punishing us so that God could forgive our sins.

Then you are saying that Christ's blood did nothing for us and the penalty of sin which is death, still remains over us.

John's post:
What is missing from that is God punishing Christ. Chastening is a type of punishment, but it is discipline (not retributive punishment) which fits in Christ being “made perfect” by His suffering (completing the role of Christ, i.e., Messiah).

Please do not forget that he was the first fruit of the living. Yes he died as a man but he also needed to be a man to die for the sins of man although he was sinless....without him being a man in his death, he could not be that sinless sacrificial lamb needed to die for the sins of the world. Jesus came into the world by God's command. He faced the cross and died by God's command and God raised him up from the dead. Jesus died on the cross deliberately and by his own free will. Not because he needed the discipline

Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,

6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.
7 Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men.
And when He had come as a man
in His external form,
8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.
9 For this reason God highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
of those who are in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2
 

John Caldwell

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John's post:

Then you are saying that Christ's blood did nothing for us and the penalty of sin which is death, still remains over us.

John's post:

Please do not forget that he was the first fruit of the living. Yes he died as a man but he also needed to be a man to die for the sins of man although he was sinless....without him being a man in his death, he could not be that sinless sacrificial lamb needed to die for the sins of the world.
No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that Christ's blood was the price for our salvation. We were redeemed by the blood of Christ.

I think you may be using "atonement" as an amalgamation of several things and rolling it into one.

Christ had to be man to be the "last Adam", to have victory (as man) over sin and death. The wages of sin is death. It is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment. Christ suffered death not so that we would not but so that although we die yet we will live. Christ saves us not from death (physical death as the "wages of sin") but through it.

But then there is the Judgment and the "wrath to come". This is after physical death. All judgment is given to Christ. For those who are in Christ there is no condemnation. For those who are not, there is the "second death" when Hell and death is cast into the "lake of fire" prepared for the Devil and his demons.
 

justbyfaith

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No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that Christ's blood was the price for our salvation. We were redeemed by the blood of Christ.

I think you may be using "atonement" as an amalgamation of several things and rolling it into one.

Christ had to be man to be the "last Adam", to have victory (as man) over sin and death. The wages of sin is death. It is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment. Christ suffered death not so that we would not but so that although we die yet we will live. Christ saves us not from death (physical death as the "wages of sin") but through it.

But then there is the Judgment and the "wrath to come". This is after physical death. All judgment is given to Christ. For those who are in Christ there is no condemnation. For those who are not, there is the "second death" when Hell and death is cast into the "lake of fire" prepared for the Devil and his demons.

You're not saying how these things apply to your theory of atonement.
 

Angelina

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@John Caldwell I'm not sure what your point is or what Christus victors theology is....I may have to read up on it to get what you are meaning...

Ok reading and I agree with the ransom theory but do not agree that it was paid to satan. It was paid to God due to his Law. He is a Holy and Righteous God... still reading...
 

John Caldwell

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You're not saying how these things apply to your theory of atonement.

They are my theory of atonement.

I believe that the Atonement or Reconciliation was God giving His Son as a sin offering to suffer and die at the hands of the wicked (think of the parables Jesus told of the kingdom). Jesus was made “flesh”, one of us yet without sin. He was tempted as we are and struggled as we do. He suffered and was perfected by His suffering. And He died on a cross at the hands of the world by the plan of God.

God vindicated Jesus and raised Him on the third day. Having victory over sin and death He is the First-Born and the “Last Adam”. Those who die “with Christ” (those who die to the flesh and are born of the Spirit) are who I call “in Christ”. We have a hope in His Resurrection that we will be resurrected as well. It is appointed men once to die.

And then the Judgment. All judgment is given to the Son. This is due to His Word, the Father honoring Him and giving Him a name above every name. So I believe the Judgment is Christ-centered. Those who remain in their sins will remain condemned. But there is no condemnation in Christ. Those in Him escape the wrath to come.
 

John Caldwell

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@John Caldwell I'm not sure what your point is or what Christus victors theology is....I may have to read up on it to get what you are meaning...
My position is along the lines of C.S. Lewis, N.T. Wright, Donald Kraybill and Mark Heim (closer to the first two) if that helps.

Basically, it is the same as the Ransom Theory except there is no payment to Satan (it is questionable that the earlier forms of Ransom Theory viewed a literal payment to Satan...but later on that was the common idea).
 

Angelina

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John's post:
Basically, it is the same as the Ransom Theory except there is no payment to Satan (it is questionable that the earlier forms of Ransom Theory viewed a literal payment to Satan...but later on that was the common idea).
That is what I said in my post above. I do not believe that God needed to pay Satan but rather that Satan is the accuser of the brethren before God, questioning God about others who break his law...his commands
 
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justbyfaith

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They are my theory of atonement.

I believe that the Atonement or Reconciliation was God giving His Son as a sin offering to suffer and die at the hands of the wicked (think of the parables Jesus told of the kingdom). Jesus was made “flesh”, one of us yet without sin. He was tempted as we are and struggled as we do. He suffered and was perfected by His suffering. And He died on a cross at the hands of the world by the plan of God.

God vindicated Jesus and raised Him on the third day. Having victory over sin and death He is the First-Born and the “Last Adam”. Those who die “with Christ” (those who die to the flesh and are born of the Spirit) are who I call “in Christ”. We have a hope in His Resurrection that we will be resurrected as well. It is appointed men once to die.

And then the Judgment. All judgment is given to the Son. This is due to His Word, the Father honoring Him and giving Him a name above every name. So I believe the Judgment is Christ-centered. Those who remain in their sins will remain condemned. But there is no condemnation in Christ. Those in Him escape the wrath to come.

It seems to me that you have gutted out the essential doctrine that will bring salvation to the sinner.

This is the gospel:
Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

What does it mean that He died for our sins?

Maybe if you could tell me your answer to this question, we can proceed with a clear understanding of what you believe is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 

OzSpen

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John's post: That is what I said in my post above. I do not believe that God needed to pay Satan but rather that Satan is the accuser of the brethren before God, questioning God about others who break his law...his commands

Angelina,

These are key verses for understanding the atonement:

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Rom 5:6-10 NIV).​

'Christ died for the ungodly' (v. 6).

ὑπέρ (huper) = for, for the benefit of (the ungodly). The interpretation of this preposition has caused considerable discussion among biblical pastors and scholars.

Elsewhere, Paul supports the vicarious sacrifice of Christ, expressed in the doctrine of 'propitiation':
  • Rom 3:25 (ESV): 'and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins'.
  • Eph 5:2, 'gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God
  • 1 Tim 2:6, the 'ransom for all'.
I'm happy to accept the explanation of the vicarious atonement of Christ as a reasonable explanation of this preposition and the need for appeasing the wrath of God (propitiation) by his blood.l The cross (the Roman method of the death penalty) was necessary by Jesus Christ to bring cleansing of sins for all people.

Oz
 
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FollowHim

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Several times I have seen advocates of the Theory of Penal Substitution Atonement (PSA) comment that they do not understand how other theories necessitate the cross.

I hold a Christus Victor view of Reconciliation. This view considers God as sending His Son as a sin offering, that it pleased God to “crush Him” in the context that Christ suffered and died “at the hands of wicked men” but that this was also “in accordance with God’s predetermined plan”.

Christ suffered and died at the hands of the world (at the hands of wicked men), not at the hands of God. The cross was necessary because the cross was the “worlds” condemnation. It was necessary that Christ be handed over by the Jewish leadership (religious leadership) into the hands of the “wicked” (the secular powers of that time, the powers of the world) and Christ suffer and die that specific death under those specific circumstances.

Christ had to be condemned NOT by God but by the world. God will never condemn the righteous. The point of the cross is that the world DID condemn the righteous. God vindicated His Son, raising Him to life, given victor over the powers of sin and death – the powers of this world – that has held man in bondage.

That is just a short answer, but it should be enough to explain why Christus Victor (and most non-PSA theories) absolutely depends on Christ's suffering and death upon a Roman cross and being raised on the third day.

BUT

PSA does not necessitate the cross itself (as long as Christ died in public and His death concluded by being hung on a tree or any type of wooden structure). I am not sure that advocates of PSA have realized this.

Sure, the cross was foretold so it would happen that way. Sure, under Roman law this is how it would occur. But none of this speaks to it as being necessary (that our redemption needing the cross). Another interesting thing is PSA does not acknowledge that Christ died not under God’s law but under the law of the world. But that's another topic.

I believe there are some fundamental truths in the cross that need the mature in Christ to see.
1. Jesus died at the hands of us, sinful mankind.
2. Jesus forgave those who killed him, the group who caused His death.
3. Our problem is believing God loves us and will not reject us because of our sin, ie there is a path of forgiveness
4. We need to identify with those who killed Jesus, to receive His forgiveness
5. We need to believe Jesus that the cross is enough to cleanse us of all unrighteousness

Jesus had to be God for this to be significant, to show how much He, the creator of all, loves us, He would do anything possible to bring us home.
This is very personal, our sin killed Jesus, our guilt and shame, put Him on the cross. Our attempts at domination, proving, control, overcoming others, proving ourselves, wanting glory, put Jesus on the cross. And on that cross it all got nailed, dealt with, cleansed and forgiven.
The emotional conclusion that our guilt is resolved, our sin cleansed, our hearts purified is the power of Christ in our lives. There is nothing more that needs to be done. It is not a distant act, it is brutal, unbelievably cruel and heartless. Just see the wounds as displayed in the Turin shroud. Jesus lost so much blood he could not carry his cross. 1 week after the triumphal entry, the assassination of the King of glory took place. One man taken out, not much of a crime or an issue. The movement crushed, the problem resolved, just one innocent murdered. How many others had gone before, one more made little difference.

Anything that removes this from us personally is not of God.
Our foundation is Jesus and cross. It is faith that puts us with the murderers who killed Him, and faith that exercises forgiveness of our sin.
It is grace that covers over our failures and areas where we need emotional growth and healing, and the law that guides us in the areas we need to work on.

PSA comes from a desire to distance ourselves from the need to change, and the brutality of our own sinful deeds and the sorrow that should flow.
The power of the cross is the disciples that ran away, hours before Peter who said he was so strong to stand with God unto death. Peter imagined a heroic end, not a capitulation to the authorities with a betrayal by a friend, and no fight. Why did Jesus need the sword?

It had to be the cross and it had to be the Jewish teachers of the law, who claimed they wanted Gods way, to the letter, but had no love only self indulgence and greed. How today the same realities are still alive, the claiming of promises while not living out the fulfilment of a cleansed life, but rather wallowing in sin and defeat. Each reader knows there place in this divide, but the question is always, are they willing to repent and approach God in faith, knowing what the cross actually means for them personally. Praise the Lord, some will respond as God gives the grace to repent, Amen. Praise the Lord.
 

Enoch111

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Jesus died at the hands of us, sinful mankind.
This is true only in the sense that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. But Jesus did NOT die at the hand of sinful mankind as such.

However this heresy of John Caldwell in the OP would have us believe that only wicked men were involved with the crucifixion of Christ. Here is what he said: "Christ suffered and died at the hands of the world (at the hands of wicked men), not at the hands of God." And that is a blatant lie.

It is God who sent His Son into this world to become the Lamb of God who would take away our sins, and Christ offered Himself TO GOD as a whole Burnt Offering. No man could have touched Christ unless it was God's express and predetermined plan to see His Son suffer and die for the sins of the whole world.