How is it that in the beginning in Genesis 2 when God created the 1st Adam and Eden....

[SilenceInMotion]

So, your salvation and god is a figment of your imagination. Well, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. Carry On.

See, when you YEC's act like that, you're really just showing that you are in denial.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

See, when you YEC's act like that, you're really just showing that you are in denial.

See, when you YEC's act like that, you're really just showing that you are in denial.

You obviously can't see the illogical position of your belief system. You hold to a belief but it's a figment of your imagination, a fairy tale if you will. All who hold to a non-literal creation and fall are in an untenable position. In reality it's called walking in the vanity of your own mind. AKA IDOLATRY.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

You obviously can't see the illogical position of your belief system. You hold to a belief but it's a figment of your imagination, a fairy tale if you will. All who hold to a non-literal creation and fall are in an untenable position. In reality it's called walking in the vanity of your own mind. AKA IDOLATRY.

Then please provide a logical explanation about the world being 6000 years old other then thumping your finger at Genesis 1 and talking about how it is literal.

Because people have come up with a very legitmate and rational scientific conclusion in harmony with Genesis, and all those such as yourself do is pretty much, well, what you have done on this thread.

As for idolatry, if that exists at all in this subject, it is most definitely the nature in which YEC's cling to Genesis, acting like the literal interpretation is written in the stars and allowing it to defy rational thought. You essentially limit the entirety of Creation to a few pages of scripture and idolize it.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Then please provide a logical explanation about the world being 6000 years old other then thumping your finger at Genesis 1 and talking about how it is literal.

Because people have come up with a very legitmate and rational scientific conclusion in harmony with Genesis, and all those such as yourself do is pretty much, well, what you have done on this thread.

First it should be stated that I'm not familiar with "Creation science, young earth theory'. Secondary, given that all scripture is inspired and God breathed,; this being the foundation of my position. Coupled with this the numerous quoting by Jesus and Paul and the other apostles to a literal creation and fall, should be enough for any sober individual to sit up and take notice.

Unfortunately, to have any reasonable hope to discuss and debate this, a fundamental requirement is needed. i.e one needs to be born again from above. If this essential fact is not in force than irrespective of what is discussed it's impossible to come to the knowledge of the truth.

As already alluded to above the fact that Christ and his Apostles built there doctrine on the understanding of a literal creation and fall is Paramount to any moral truths that may proceed from that. For instance you cannot logical and cogently argue that homosexuality is outright wrong if your hold to a non-literal view of the marriage covenant that Jesus himself alluded to. Why, because you base your ideas on a myth and tradition and not on the absolute truth of God. You cannot also base headship of the male in marriage on a myth of the so-called fall of Eve if it wasn't literally true.

Secondly I get an approximation of the truth by genealogies, within the Hebrew OT. The Jews by the LXX. Not withstanding any copyist errors and calender modifications in the last 2000 yrs.

It's a simple as that.

I understand I'm considered ignorant and the method outdated, but I'm willing to take that risk, if one exists. Personally, I think my faith based research is far more reliable than any scientist that puts forth an alternative view to the facts so plainly stated above.

The "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH".

"FAITH COMMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING, BY THE WORD OF GOD." As Paul the Apostle said be sure from whom you have learnt it from. I have learnt this from GOD and his Apostles, through HIS WORD & SPIRIT.

SO I'M SURE!

 

[veteran]

So, your salvation and god is a figment of your imagination. Well, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. Carry On.



A you a reader of Rousas John Rushdoony? I've certainly read a few of his books. In particular the "mythology of science".

No, never heard of him actually.

Anyone reading the Book of Job, and the many examples of science God put in His Word should automatically realize that those who try to put the idea of 'science' into one basket like it's man's thing, are just speaking from a platform of ignorance. The pagan priesthoods of old kept their little knowledge of nature and the laws God setup for this world a mystery to the un-initiated. Only once one petitioned them to join the Mysteries of initiation would those things be revealed, in secret. Along with that they imparted a mystical set of principles and ideas that had nothing to do with God's Truth, and thereby tainted the true science that God established for this world. They kept what true science they knew from the people in order to maintain power over the masses. It's those same ones that would later push the origins of pseudo-science, like witchcraft, magic, thaumatergy, i.e., the occult black arts, atheism, and eventually theories of evolution. Some of those are also within Christ's Church, and do what they can to try and keep true science separate from God's Word.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

No, never heard of him actually.

Anyone reading the Book of Job, and the many examples of science God put in His Word should automatically realize that those who try to put the idea of 'science' into one basket like it's man's thing, are just speaking from a platform of ignorance. The pagan priesthoods of old kept their little knowledge of nature and the laws God setup for this world a mystery to the un-initiated. Only once one petitioned them to join the Mysteries of initiation would those things be revealed, in secret. Along with that they imparted a mystical set of principles and ideas that had nothing to do with God's Truth, and thereby tainted the true science that God established for this world. They kept what true science they knew from the people in order to maintain power over the masses. It's those same ones that would later push the origins of pseudo-science, like witchcraft, magic, thaumatergy, i.e., the occult black arts, atheism, and eventually theories of evolution. Some of those are also within Christ's Church, and do what they can to try and keep true science separate from God's Word.

No, never heard of him actually.

Anyone reading the Book of Job, and the many examples of science God put in His Word should automatically realize that those who try to put the idea of 'science' into one basket like it's man's thing, are just speaking from a platform of ignorance. The pagan priesthoods of old kept their little knowledge of nature and the laws God setup for this world a mystery to the un-initiated. Only once one petitioned them to join the Mysteries of initiation would those things be revealed, in secret. Along with that they imparted a mystical set of principles and ideas that had nothing to do with God's Truth, and thereby tainted the true science that God established for this world. They kept what true science they knew from the people in order to maintain power over the masses. It's those same ones that would later push the origins of pseudo-science, like witchcraft, magic, thaumatergy, i.e., the occult black arts, atheism, and eventually theories of evolution. Some of those are also within Christ's Church, and do what they can to try and keep true science separate from God's Word.

Interesting history you laid out. Man has always sort to trump God, and play god. No surprise there's a real push for it now, being the latter time. Many voices in the wilderness but only ONE small still voice. As Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and NO other will they follow. SHALOM

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The fact that people try to get all poetic and gleam with conviction over a simple matter of making science and the Bible harmonious just shows the denial complex of YEC's. Evolution and the Big Bang are facts- what do you do with that? Deny it, or even say that the Bible beats facts- YEC's are as vain as square tires. Seriously, there is no reason to deny theistic evolution, it is sound, and you all sit there and you all just make up obstacle after obstacle trying to make an impossible notion possible. There's a name for that, and it's called insanity.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

The fact that people try to get all poetic and gleam with conviction over a simple matter of making science and the Bible harmonious just shows the denial complex of YEC's. Evolution and the Big Bang are facts- what do you do with that? Deny it, or even say that the Bible beats facts- YEC's are as vain as square tires. Seriously, there is no reason to deny theistic evolution, it is sound, and you all sit there and you all just make up obstacle after obstacle trying to make an impossible notion possible. There's a name for that, and it's called insanity.

Well my loquacious friend; you're the pot calling the kettle black. You know 'intellectual schizophrenia' belongs to the children of darkness. They have ample evidence around them for a creator but choose to live in a fantasy- a fiction of their own minds. If you wish to belong or be associated with this group, well, good luck with that.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

This is the Earth if you take the Bible literally, ignoring allegory, poetry, and symbolism:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/5731497910_26e83e4f2e_b.jpg

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

This is the Earth if you take the Bible literally, ignoring allegory, poetry, and symbolism:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/5731497910_26e83e4f2e_b.jpg

All things in God's word are clearly NOT literally to be interpreted. Such as "the tree's of the field shall clap there hands... ." Actually it's quite obvious when one reads it. However, the skill & right to determine such belongs to the flock of Christ. NOT THE WORLD, NOR THE APOSTATE.

 

[veteran]

The fact that people try to get all poetic and gleam with conviction over a simple matter of making science and the Bible harmonious just shows the denial complex of YEC's. Evolution and the Big Bang are facts- what do you do with that? Deny it, or even say that the Bible beats facts- YEC's are as vain as square tires. Seriously, there is no reason to deny theistic evolution, it is sound, and you all sit there and you all just make up obstacle after obstacle trying to make an impossible notion possible. There's a name for that, and it's called insanity.

By YEC I assume you mean 'young earth creationists'.

Well, I'm not one of those at all, not even referring to that group. Those refuse man's theories of evolution and also any idea that God's creation is much more ancient. Doesn't mean they are wrong with refusing men's ideas of evolution. Man's theories of evolution is the antithesis of God's creation per His Word. So what you've actually chosen to do is to believe man's theories over what God's Word reveals about the creation. It's as simple as that.

All things in God's word are clearly NOT literally to be interpreted. Such as "the tree's of the field shall clap there hands... ." Actually it's quite obvious when one reads it. However, the skill & right to determine such belongs to the flock of Christ. NOT THE WORLD, NOR THE APOSTATE.

That has needed to be said here for a long, long time. That is very Biblical, like how Jesus told His Apostles in Matt.13 how what was revealed to them was desired of by many prophets and wise men that had not heard nor seen them.

That also falls into association of what I was talking about previously about the ancient pagans hiding what true things they knew, while creating a set of false mystical doctrines to go with them, thus causing confusion upon themselves and those who petitioned them for initiation into their pseudo-mysteries. Just as God has a set of true Mysteries of The Kingdom, likewise Satan's host tries to borrow from what is God's to try and create their own mysteries. This is the deep secret of the ancient pagan mystery schools of initiation, and those societies are still with us today on earth.

In Ezekiel 8 this is also what God is showing Ezekiel, and us, how many of His people allow themselves to be duped by the false crept in unawares into their false pseudo-mysteries which always includes worship of something else, anything else, but GOD Himself.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Whatever happened to simply enlightening others on God's creation and will? Why do people have to be labeled as apostates by some for simply shedding light on the workings of God?
Harmonizing science and Creation is something to herald. It is proof of God.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Whatever happened to simply enlightening others on God's creation and will? Why do people have to be labeled as apostates by some for simply shedding light on the workings of God?
Harmonizing science and Creation is something to herald. It is proof of God.

CREATION AND INTERNAL WITNESS IS PROOF OF GOD.

 

[veteran]

Whatever happened to simply enlightening others on God's creation and will? Why do people have to be labeled as apostates by some for simply shedding light on the workings of God?
Harmonizing science and Creation is something to herald. It is proof of God.

Yes, TRUE science and God's creation is something to herald, and is proof of God. But NOT pseudo-science of men's theories of evolution.

 

[Selene]

Well, in a sense we perhaps do. However, I'd label my method as hybrid because I do have a familiarity with at least the Eastern Orthodox treatment of both Gensis and the Bible as a whole. I am at least open to looking beyond the traditional Western enlightenment brand of thought. For example, I don't view Genesis as a scientific account of creation.

The problem I have with what you're saying here is that it's essentially anachronistic. The Early Church Fathers, for instance, held in majority and rather clearly that Adam and Eve were literal. The Apostles and writers of the NT at least held to the same notion, and I would cite passages such as where Jude talks about Enoch (7th descendant of Adam) and Paul cites the first man Adam. They may not have had the culture war battles we do over things, but this was an assumed truth. (There is an excellent article book review here that backs up this assertion, as I am not just pulling this out of thin air or following traditional talking points with no scholarship.) As such, traditionally there has been a distinguishing between true (substitute literal if you must, but that's not the best word here) story and something more along the lines of a parable or folktale.

The concept of relative truth is a postmodern device (and just as Western in orientation), and that is essentially what is at play here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the idea you advocate is that the story is essentially a parable, true in the sense that it conveys true ideas, but fable in the sense that Adam and Eve were not actual people who lived, sinned, and died?


I don't know about that; my argument would be that the collective text known as the Bible necessitates that it be true. For example, the first man Adam being a literary construct diminishes the last Adam title given to Jesus (I Corinthians 15:45). If you read the former allegorically, then why does the latter need to be real in order to work.

I am, actually, quite fine with ambiguity, but there are times when ambiguity may destroy things, especially if that ambiguity is constructed in a place where authorial intent was not such.

A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

The most recent statement to mention this debate was Pope Pius XII's "Humani Generis," a 1950 encyclical. It stated: "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also states: Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity for "from one ancestor" [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth. (360).

A Roman Catholic always goes by what the Pope and the teaching Magisterium says. Therefore, Adam and Eve were REAL people. A Catholic cannot go against the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the teaching Magisterium otherwise they are putting themselves outside the Church.

On the other hand, there are many things in Genesis that the Church view as figurative. For example, the story of God creating everything in six days is figurative. The Church taught that it would be a mistake to read the Holy Bible as though it were a science book. The Holy Bible is a book about the salvation of mankind and should never be read as a science book.

Whatever happened to simply enlightening others on God's creation and will? Why do people have to be labeled as apostates by some for simply shedding light on the workings of God?
Harmonizing science and Creation is something to herald. It is proof of God.

The thing is science is still inconclusive in regards to human origins. There is still a lot of scientific debates on the subject. Some scientists say that polygenism is correct while others suggest monogenism is correct. For example, in the field of Genetics it was found that human DNA in mitochondria all point to one female ancestor; yet, this is still inconclusive.

 

[veteran]

Well, it's wrong that God's Word does not also include real science, including within the Genesis creation account. The problem has been people's confusion in not knowing the difference between true science and man's pseudo-science. God's Word will always agree with true science and visa versa.

In both the Protestant and Roman Church, Gen.1:1 as being the time of God's original perfect creation, and then Gen.1:2 that original creation going into a state of vanity, is NOT taught. Yet in both branches there are quite a few members that understand it from what is written. So not every professed outward doctrine of either Church is Biblically complete, and instead has to leave out what they do not yet understand. There's quite a bit written in God's Word that is OFTEN left out of what men have determined as Church doctrine.