How many kingdoms in Daniel?

[CTK]

Below are the relevant verses in Daniel (stopped at Chapter 7) that discuss how many kingdoms are found, and my interpretations on those verses. Please consider.


Chapter 2

Dream Sequence:

31“You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. 32This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and [k]thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of [l]clay.

Here Daniel is telling us the “structure” of the kingdoms in this great image. Except for the head, each of the next 3 kingdoms are identified with having 2 body parts. The only kingdom that is symbolized with more than one metal component is the 4th which has a “clay” component WITHIN IT. This is because the clay will represent the Jewish people.


34You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.

The “Stone” (Messiah at His first coming) will strike the feet (not the legs) and break “them” (iron and clay components only) into pieces. This will symbolically separate the Jewish people from being encased in pagan Rome. The Jews expected their Messiah to come and destroy the iron legs and feet of pagan Rome, but Jesus did not come to destroy but to “divide.” Symbolically, the cross is the action that would separate the clay into two separate parts: the “pottery clay” would represent those Jews who would accept Him as their Messiah (after the cross) and preach the Good News to the world, while the “ceramic” clay represents those Jews who were “hardened” and would reject Him. And of course, the iron would still be iron along with the rest of the legs of pagan Rome.

Note: 2:35 represents His second coming where all things are destroyed.



Interpretation Sequence:

36...Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. 37You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. 39But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.

Within these “interpretation sequence” verses, Daniel identifies the 4 and only 4 kingdoms. And in verse 40, he reveals the 4th kingdom (pagan Rome – iron kingdom) will break in pieces and crush all the others (the other 3 kingdoms… no, they did not directly destroy Babylon, Medes-Persia, or Greece, but they destroyed ALL “OTHER NATIONS). Meaning, 2:34 did not destroy the entire image but only separated the iron and the clay within the feet.


So, within Chapter 2, Daniel reveals twice there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms found in the metal man image. The breaking of the two components of iron and clay within the feet does not create a 5th kingdom. It only separates the two symbolic materials.



Chapter 7

Dream Sequence:

3And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.5“And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’6“After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet.

Here, Daniel is given his own dream where God reveals the same 4 and only 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea (instability / turmoil). It also confirms the 4th beast kingdom of iron (pagan Rome) is the same 4th kingdom that is so destructive as the 4th kingdom in Chapter 2. And notice, there is no mention whatsoever of a 5th kingdom.



4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome):

11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Here, Daniel is telling us the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome) will be slain and its body destroyed. The timing of this is approx.. 476 BC. The “rest of the beasts” (Babylon, Medes-Persians and Greece) will never again come to power and rule over another kingdom, but of course, they (people, culture, etc.,) will continue living.

4th beast kingdom (papal Rome):

17‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four [h]kings which arise out of the earth. 19“Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke https://biblehub.com/nkjv/daniel/7.htm#footnotespompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

Once again, Daniel confirm there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms / beasts that come out of the earth (God has selected these 4 and only 4 kingdoms to reveal His plan of salvation in). However, Daniel is having difficulty recognizing this [new / different] 4th beast; it was different from “all the others,” and here “the others” would include pagan Rome which he saw before it was slain. These verses reveal the 4 kingdoms AFTER pagan Rome was slain and its body was destroyed. Still 4 kingdoms but this [new or replaced power] now is revealed not only with “teeth of iron” but now with “nails of bronze.” Now, this 4th beast kingdom has 10 horns coming out of it and a little horn coming out of it after the 10. This “4th beast” doesn’t look at all like the 4th beast he saw earlier. In Chapter 2, the Stone broke into pieces the iron and clay within the feet. As a consequence of the only event in Chapter 2, we find in Chapter 7 there are now two additional entities that have “come out” of pagan Rome (BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome) – the 10 horns and the little horn.


Interpretation Sequence:

23“Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,

Here is the Chapter 7 interpretation sequence, Gabriel reveals the truth about this [new] 4th kingdom that Daniel does not recognize and wants to know more about. This 4th beast will be different from “all the other kingdoms” – this would include pagan Rome but Gabriel still tells him there are only 4. But there will be 10 kings that WERE earlier referred to as “horns,” and another “little horn” that shall arise after them who will subdue 3 of the 10. Apparently, the “little horn” has grown in power and has now subdued 3 of the 10 that came out of pagan Rome initially.

 

[IndianaRob]

Below are the relevant verses in Daniel (stopped at Chapter 7) that discuss how many kingdoms are found, and my interpretations on those verses. Please consider.


Chapter 2

Dream Sequence:

31“You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. 32This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and [k]thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of [l]clay.

Here Daniel is telling us the “structure” of the kingdoms in this great image. Except for the head, each of the next 3 kingdoms are identified with having 2 body parts. The only kingdom that is symbolized with more than one metal component is the 4th which has a “clay” component WITHIN IT. This is because the clay will represent the Jewish people.


34You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.

The “Stone” (Messiah at His first coming) will strike the feet (not the legs) and break “them” (iron and clay components only) into pieces. This will symbolically separate the Jewish people from being encased in pagan Rome. The Jews expected their Messiah to come and destroy the iron legs and feet of pagan Rome, but Jesus did not come to destroy but to “divide.” Symbolically, the cross is the action that would separate the clay into two separate parts: the “pottery clay” would represent those Jews who would accept Him as their Messiah (after the cross) and preach the Good News to the world, while the “ceramic” clay represents those Jews who were “hardened” and would reject Him. And of course, the iron would still be iron along with the rest of the legs of pagan Rome.

Note: 2:35 represents His second coming where all things are destroyed.



Interpretation Sequence:

36...Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. 37You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. 39But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.

Within these “interpretation sequence” verses, Daniel identifies the 4 and only 4 kingdoms. And in verse 40, he reveals the 4th kingdom (pagan Rome – iron kingdom) will break in pieces and crush all the others (the other 3 kingdoms… no, they did not directly destroy Babylon, Medes-Persia, or Greece, but they destroyed ALL “OTHER NATIONS). Meaning, 2:34 did not destroy the entire image but only separated the iron and the clay within the feet.


So, within Chapter 2, Daniel reveals twice there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms found in the metal man image. The breaking of the two components of iron and clay within the feet does not create a 5th kingdom. It only separates the two symbolic materials.



Chapter 7

Dream Sequence:

3And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.5“And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’6“After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet.

Here, Daniel is given his own dream where God reveals the same 4 and only 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea (instability / turmoil). It also confirms the 4th beast kingdom of iron (pagan Rome) is the same 4th kingdom that is so destructive as the 4th kingdom in Chapter 2. And notice, there is no mention whatsoever of a 5th kingdom.



4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome):

11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Here, Daniel is telling us the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome) will be slain and its body destroyed. The timing of this is approx.. 476 BC. The “rest of the beasts” (Babylon, Medes-Persians and Greece) will never again come to power and rule over another kingdom, but of course, they (people, culture, etc.,) will continue living.

4th beast kingdom (papal Rome):

17‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four [h]kings which arise out of the earth. 19“Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke Daniel 7 NKJVpompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

Once again, Daniel confirm there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms / beasts that come out of the earth (God has selected these 4 and only 4 kingdoms to reveal His plan of salvation in). However, Daniel is having difficulty recognizing this [new / different] 4th beast; it was different from “all the others,” and here “the others” would include pagan Rome which he saw before it was slain. These verses reveal the 4 kingdoms AFTER pagan Rome was slain and its body was destroyed. Still 4 kingdoms but this [new or replaced power] now is revealed not only with “teeth of iron” but now with “nails of bronze.” Now, this 4th beast kingdom has 10 horns coming out of it and a little horn coming out of it after the 10. This “4th beast” doesn’t look at all like the 4th beast he saw earlier. In Chapter 2, the Stone broke into pieces the iron and clay within the feet. As a consequence of the only event in Chapter 2, we find in Chapter 7 there are now two additional entities that have “come out” of pagan Rome (BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome) – the 10 horns and the little horn.


Interpretation Sequence:

23“Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,

Here is the Chapter 7 interpretation sequence, Gabriel reveals the truth about this [new] 4th kingdom that Daniel does not recognize and wants to know more about. This 4th beast will be different from “all the other kingdoms” – this would include pagan Rome but Gabriel still tells him there are only 4. But there will be 10 kings that WERE earlier referred to as “horns,” and another “little horn” that shall arise after them who will subdue 3 of the 10. Apparently, the “little horn” has grown in power and has now subdued 3 of the 10 that came out of pagan Rome initially.

There are four as you said.

 

[Keraz]

There will be a Fifth Kingdom:
The Kingdom of Jesus – 2 Samuel 22:32

Daniel 2:34-35 & 44-45 I saw a supernatural Rock that smashed the statue, it blew it away like chaff. Then that Rock became a huge mountain that filled the whole earth. God will set up a Kingdom that will be supreme over all other kingdoms and it will endure forever.

Daniel 7:13-14 & 26-27 The Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Gods judgement is against the Anti Christ and his kingdom is abolished. The governance of the whole world is given to the holy people of God. Revelation 20:6

 

[CTK]

There will be a Fifth Kingdom:
The Kingdom of Jesus – 2 Samuel 22:32

Daniel 2:34-35 & 44-45 I saw a supernatural Rock that smashed the statue, it blew it away like chaff. Then that Rock became a huge mountain that filled the whole earth. God will set up a Kingdom that will be supreme over all other kingdoms and it will endure forever.

Daniel 7:13-14 & 26-27 The Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Gods judgement is against the Anti Christ and his kingdom is abolished. The governance of the whole world is given to the holy people of God. Revelation 20:6

Of course God came to set up His earthly kingdom which, according to Daniel, will never be destroyed but that is not what this (Daniel) is speaking about. There are 4 and only 4 kingdoms that come out of the earth or the sea. God's kingdom is not of this world.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings CTK,

The only kingdom that is symbolized with more than one metal component is the 4th which has a “clay” component WITHIN IT. This is because the clay will represent the Jewish people.

The clay of the fourth Kingdom, the Roman, is the invasion and establishment of the Huns, Vandals Visigoths etc., representing the breakup and decline of the Roman Empire into various kingdom/territories.

The “Stone” (Messiah at His first coming) will strike the feet (not the legs) and break “them” (iron and clay components only) into pieces.

Verses 35 and 44 state that the stone will smite the image and replace it with the Kingdom of God and this is speaking about the second coming, not the first.

The breaking of the two components of iron and clay within the feet does not create a 5th kingdom. It only separates the two symbolic materials.

The fifth kingdom is the replacing of the present kingdoms of men at the return of Jesus when he comes to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years.

And notice, there is no mention whatsoever of a 5th kingdom.

The fifth kingdom is the replacing of the fourth kingdom with the Kingdom of God Daniel 7:26-27.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CTK]

Greetings CTK,

The clay of the fourth Kingdom, the Roman, is the invasion and establishment of the Huns, Vandals Visigoths etc., representing the breakup and decline of the Roman Empire into various kingdom/territories.

Thanks for sharing your interpretations. I have seen something like this before and it was associated with the SDA folks. But it is my belief they clay, once symbolically separated from the iron as a direct result of the cross, represents the Jewish people. After the cross, now those Jews (pottery clay) who accept Jesus will preach the Good News thoughtout the Empire, while those Jews who would continue to reject Him (ceramic clay) would persecute the Jews and the Gentiles who accepte Jesus.

Verses 35 and 44 state that the stone will smite the image and replace it with the Kingdom of God and this is speaking about the second coming, not the first.

Verse 35, IMO, does represent the second coming of Jesus when all things will come to an end. Verse 44 speaks of "in the days of these kings." This is a direct reference to the 4 kings of the metal man image. It will be during their reign when the Messiah will come to "set up" His earthly kingdom. His kingdom will certainly grow and never be destroyed until His second coming. His earthly kingdom will never be given over to another people, meaning, He entrusted His chosen people (Israel) to read, study and obety His laws and commands and go out into the world teaching the one true God to the Gentiles and the pagan of the world. They failed miserably and thus, not only would they keep Him to themselves, but they would reject their own Messiah. Thus, God will never again entrust man's salvation to any other group, people, church, organization.... Now, He will only turn that over to His Holy Spirit who will never fail. But there is a 2000 year span of time from the cross to His second coming when the "time of the Gentiles" is completed and He will return.

The fifth kingdom is the replacing of the present kingdoms of men at the return of Jesus when he comes to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years.

There is absolutely no doubt that Jesus will return to consumate His kingdom. At His first coming, He "set up" His kingdom and He will return to complete His kingdom.

The fifth kingdom is the replacing of the fourth kingdom with the Kingdom of God Daniel 7:26-27.

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes, verse 26 tells us that God will come and destroy the little horn of the 4th beast kingdom. That is the papacy - who has been preaching a false gospel for over 1500 years and also claiming to be god himself on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, verse 26 tells us that God will come and destroy the little horn of the 4th beast kingdom. That is the papacy - who has been preaching a false gospel for over 1500 years and also claiming to be god himself on earth.

That is not what the verse is telling us at all. You have inserted your historical knowledge from outside of God's Word, and created a false narrative and interpretation.

You have admitted that you only know Daniel, and have not resolved that book with the rest of Scripture. Daniel only got us a clear perspective to the Cross, and a blury one after that point. You deny the two feet are even a 5th kingdom. Then you use the terms pagan and papal as if Rome was a continuous entity from the beginning to some ending. Rome was a kingdom for hundreds of years, then a republic, after that an empire, and then it was divided. Then the western part was made up of ten or more seperate kingdoms. The western part was not even the Roman Empire which had moved to Constantinople. So Rome was not a single entity, but had several different aspects over a period of 2 millennium. But Daniel only referenced Rome as an empire, and the feet of that statue was a 5th kingdom, that was not addressed at all in later chapters.

For one thing, how do we know that Daniel 7 is even about the image in Daniel 2? That is an assumption many make. Some have even likened these to modern nations, and not even the original ones from Daniel 2. They have been interpreted as England, Russia, America, and China. Or the fourth is not even a nation but an ideology a lot of humanity follows that includes 11 nations.

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

What was explained was 4 kings, not even 4 kingdoms, correct? Would not the explanation be correct instead of your assumptions about this being about Babylon, the Medes and Persians, Greece, and then Rome?

I am not saying these are modern nations. You say this is supposed to be time that ends at the Second Coming, no? How can this be about kings since Daniel's day? If these beast are about kings, how does any of this relate to time during ancient Babylon, ancient Iran, or ancient Greece, and ancient Rome? There was no explanation that this dream was in reference to Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. That is a human assumption, no? You would obviously disagree with those who claim they are modern nations like England, Russia, the US, and China or an ideology.

I disagree that the clay represents the Jews. That is another human assumption not implied in Daniel. Daniel was a Jew along with 3 others who were a big part of the Head, Babylon. The book of Esther is about A Jew who became Queen married to the King of Persia, and the Jews made Persia stronger not weaker. The Jews were allowed independence and self government in both Greece and Rome, except for when they got in the middle of warring nations and Antiochus Epiphanes took his anger out on the Jews, and Titus had to put down an insidious rebellion that was destroying the Jews from within. Then the Jews no longer had influence as a nation at all after 70AD. That was way before the 5th kingdom of the feet and clay with ten toes even happened historically.

Saying the Jews are represented by the clay is borderline nazi-racism, but obviously that had never occurred to you, in your assumption, at least I hope not. I don't read minds. The clay just means by the 5th kingdom, men are not as strong when it comes to national sovereignty when it comes to a defined empire over the entire earth. So much so that no one world empire has been possible since the Reformation. Democracy typifies clay where everyone may have input into a nation from the ground up. Not an empire led by one individual who determines how everyone else should think or act. Some would say the more democratic a nation becomes the more clay like and also weak. Rome threw off a republic that had democratic tendency to become an iron empire under the will of an emperor, well as long as the iron, represented by an army of soldiers, was in compliance to that emperor.

However, Daniel 7 may be a look into such an attempt, again after the Reformation. But Daniel nor us has been given any explanation that is definitive, at least not to any point where the church will be in full agreement about. Daniel was told these 4 are kings and not kingdoms, yet the first thing you decide is that they are kingdoms and not kings, in direct contradiction to the explanation.

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms."

This does not necessarily mean Rome from Daniel 2. It may or may not be Rome. Many have assumed these are modern kings of modern nations. They are not any less wrong than you are in your interpretation. The next chapter, has Daniel going back to Persia and the conflict with Greece that led to Greece being the third world empire after Persia. So the 4th kingdom may not be the 4th of that time period, but a 4th kingdom closer to the Second Coming, that starts out under the guidance of a particular king. That is why these beast are kings, and not world empires/kingdoms.

I don’t think it is inherent in Daniel 2 that the 4th kingdom is both the legs and feet. The feet are a separate and 5th kingdom that is both iron and clay, not solid iron like the legs. The 5th kingdom does not have a name because it is not one solid empire based from one nation. In fact, many here want to call it papal Rome. The historical name would be the Holy Roman Empire. Which would have to include both east and west to be considered Rome or even having control over the ME, which the Holy Roman Empire did not by itself without the eastern part. The only point being that this would be the only historical 10 toes that are referenced in Daniel 2. You call it papal Rome in attempt to distant your view from the historical viewpoint, but they are literally and practically the same entity, as you cannot change history. From the 5th to the 15th century AD would be the only part of "Rome" that can fit the clay feet and ten toes.

Nor do you seem to even want to address where these ten toes, or your ten/11 horns even fit in. If you are going to stick with your 10 horns as the ten toes, then you end up with 11 toes in your interpretation of Daniel 2. You would imply that another little toe, supplanted and rooted out 3 toes and took over in their place. That is a 5th kingdom view, because none of that happened during the 4th kingdom that was from the 1st century BC to the 5th century AD.

You just claim that the 4th kingdom lasted from around 27 BC until around the Second Coming. When that 4th kingdom had existed as both a kingdom, and Republic for centuries prior to that point it was a world empire. Rome as a kingdom began when the ten northern tribes were scattered across the earth by the Assyrians. Which brings us to what a 4th or 5th kingdom even entails.

The papacy was destroyed at the Reformation. The emerging church with believers all over the world ended the 5th kingdom at the Reformation. Now the papacy may be a dormant 6th kingdom brought to life at the Second Coming, but you cannot see the 5th kingdom much less the 6th kingdom, as you have not completed your eschatological study outside of Daniel. Daniel's dreams kept going over and over 4 kingdoms, and we are not even told what the explanation was in Daniel 7. The explanation said these 4 beasts were 4 kings. Then said the 4th was an earthly kingdom. But to say that was Rome was not given, and Rome had been in existence as long as any of the other Kingdoms, but was never named in Daniel. Why is that? Could it be that we would know later, but should not interpret all of Daniel as if Rome was assumed? To say the feet of iron and clay and the ten toes is still Rome and the 4th kingdom, was never implied, nor even portrayed that way in Daniel. The 4th kingdom only remained as the eastern part with a capital in Constantinople, which later became modern Turkey. The 5th kingdom of clay and iron with ten toes, was still based in Rome but was not an empire in the same sense as the first 4 parts to the image. It was a coalition of kingdoms that would later become Europe including the germanic tribes who would become Germany. Western Rome was the 5th kingdom.

You claim your study of Daniel can make no other conclusion than 4 major kingdoms. Daniel 7:23 says there is this 4th kingdom of Daniel 7, but that may not be the same as the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2. Daniel 7 may have nothing to do with Daniel 2 at all. If in fact this has to do with the Second Coming, then Daniel 7 could be about nations at the time of the Second Coming, not the time Daniel lived in. That may be why we are not given specific names other than the ones found in Daniel.

 

[CTK]

That is not what the verse is telling us at all. You have inserted your historical knowledge from outside of God's Word, and created a false narrative and interpretation.

You have admitted that you only know Daniel, and have not resolved that book with the rest of Scripture. Daniel only got us a clear perspective to the Cross, and a blury one after that point. You deny the two feet are even a 5th kingdom........

..........You claim your study of Daniel can make no other conclusion than 4 major kingdoms. Daniel 7:23 says there is this 4th kingdom of Daniel 7, but that may not be the same as the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2. Daniel 7 may have nothing to do with Daniel 2 at all. If in fact this has to do with the Second Coming, then Daniel 7 could be about nations at the time of the Second Coming, not the time Daniel lived in. That may be why we are not given specific names other than the ones found in Daniel.

Well, that was certainly a lot of reading! Thank you for responding with your thoughts.

I cannot make light of any of your comments because Daniel is without a doubt a most complicated, confusing and almost impossible book to interpret. I guess that is why that some 2600 years have past and there still is no consensus among any of the scholars, academics or theologians that have spent years trying to unpack it. As you know, there are at least two major sets of interpretations - the preterist and the futurist view. And even within each of those two, there are many different interpretations.

When I began reading Daniel, I was told and expected it would not take very long to get a really good understanding of it. That so many brilliant folks have already done the heavy lifting… I just had to be smart enough to grasp their interpretations. But I found out rather quickly just how many different opinions existed on so much of Daniel and yet they each were convinced their interpretations were correct. How could one group of brilliant interpreters, reading the exact same verses, contend there are 4 kingdoms, while others find 5 or even more kingdoms (and that is the easy part) and more importantly, contend their views are taken place some 2000 years apart? Amazing!!!

So, I began to read all of their interpretations and try to find what Daniel is telling us. And over 5 years later (and I had no intention of spending perhaps a month to simply read and understand Daniel from those scholars), I believe I have interpreted Daniel the way it was intended … and that came to be ONLY after wasting 1 full year trying the same “approach” that EVERYONE conducted before me. They attempt to match the actors and events in Daniel (all chapters) to how well they can be matched up to our history books.

But Daniel is not a history book and most of Daniel is concerned with God’s plan of restoration and salvation of His people and mankind through the coming of His Messiah, Jesus.

So, rather than try to explain all 12 chapters here in this response, we can easily begin with Chapter 2 and walk our way through the book.

If that is of interest to you, we can begin with your first question/ interpretation in Chapter 2 and discuss it. Also, if you would like me to send you an free copy of the “Commentary” that is now available on Amazon, please send me your mailing address/information and I will have it sent directly from Amazon. (send in a private message of course).

Please let me know if either or both, or neither of these options are good for you. I can assure you it will be worth your time…. and, if you find at any time this is not worth your time and consideration, that is fine too! You can cut it off whenever you want.

 

[Douggg]

The little horn person and the ten kings are time of the end. (not historic)

In Revelation 13, the ten horns have crowns, to rule with the beast-king (the former little horn) for 42 months before Jesus returns.

The fourth kingdom (the Roman Empire) has manifested itself as the EU.

The little horn person will be leader over a panel of ten EU leaders.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

little horn > becomes the prince that shall come > becomes the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast

 

[CTK]

The little horn person and the ten kings are time of the end. (not historic)

In Revelation 13, the ten horns have crowns, to rule with the beast-king (the former little horn) for 42 months before Jesus returns.

The fourth kingdom (the Roman Empire) has manifested itself as the EU.

The little horn person will be leader over a panel of ten EU leaders.

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little horn > becomes the prince that shall come > becomes the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast

Sorry Dougg, I think I have seen your interpretations before.... many times, and they do not focus on "His people / His city and the coming of the Messiah (first time). Look for the Messiah and His plan of salvation / restoration within the verses in Daniel and you will find the correct interpretations. God is not providing a history lessson or book..... But keep to your interpretations..... everyone is entitled to their own view. Best wishes.

 

[Biblepaige]

There are four as you said.

Agree.
Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

 

[CTK]

Agree.
Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

If you or IndianaRob or anyone interested in Daniel in this forum are interested in receiving a free copy (until I can no longer afford it), of the commentary on the Book of Daniel that is available on Amazon, please send me your mailing information in a private message for confidentiality. If you rather provide a PO Box # or have it sent to your church (Pastor's attention and I will send two) to keep your personal information confidential, that has worked for others. Or you can provide any other address you are comfortable with... or, you can go online and purchase it yourself on Amazon.... or, you can do none of these things.... It is all good. Best wishes.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry Dougg, I think I have seen your interpretations before.... many times, and they do not focus on "His people / His city and the coming of the Messiah (first time). Look for the Messiah and His plan of salvation / restoration within the verses in Daniel and you will find the correct interpretations. God is not providing a history lessson or book..... But keep to your interpretations..... everyone is entitled to their own view. Best wishes.

CTK, you were talking about pagan Rome and papal Rome. Papal Rome was long after the Messiah's first coming. You are presenting a historical view.

The pope is not the little horn. The little horn person is time of the end and must be a Jew and his religion Judaism in order to become the Antichrist - perceived King of Israel messiah by the Jews.

 

[CTK]

CTK, you were talking about pagan Rome and papal Rome. Papal Rome was long after the Messiah's first coming. You are presenting a historical view.

The pope is not the little horn. The little horn person is time of the end and must be a Jew and his religion Judaism in order to become the Antichrist - perceived King of Israel messiah by the Jews.

Thanks Dougg... again, I am very aware of your opinions on Daniel.... best wishes.

 

[Douggg]

. God is not providing a history lessson or book

You missed it.

Revelation 10:7 says what God is doing.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

prophets - such as Daniel

The mystery of God is how He is going to take the kingdoms of this world away from the involvement of Satan and his angels on the nations and the affairs of man. And to bring in the everlasting Kingdom of Heaven to be the Kingdom of God ruling over the nations here of this earth.

That's the backdrop of how the time of the end verses in Daniel should be interpreted.

 

[CTK]

You missed it.

Revelation 10:7 says what God is doing.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

prophets - such as Daniel

The mystery of God is how He is going to take the kingdoms of this world away from the involvement of Satan and his angels on the nations and the affairs of man. And to bring in the everlasting Kingdom of Heaven to be the Kingdom of God ruling over the nations here of this earth.

That's the backdrop of how the time of the end verses in Daniel should be interpreted.

Okay and thanks. Dougg, we can agree to disagree....... I respect your interpretations....

 

[ewq1938]

Here, Daniel is telling us the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome) will be slain and its body destroyed. The timing of this is approx.. 476 BC.

No, because this did not happen:

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The “rest of the beasts” (Babylon, Medes-Persians and Greece) will never again come to power and rule over another kingdom, but of course, they (people, culture, etc.,) will continue living.

Those beasts did not outlive Rome. You have mis-identified all of the beasts.

 

[Wick Stick]

It seems that everyone messes it up by including Rome as the 4th kingdom... it's not...

The 4 kingdoms are:

• Babylon
• Persia
• Greece
• The Diadochi

 

[CTK]

No, because this did not happen:be

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel is not written in chronological order. There is a "dream sequence" set of verses and then there is an "interpretation sequence" set of verses. But in Chapter 7, unlike Chapter 2 and the other chapters, there are two sets of each: one is an earthly vision and the other is a heavenly vision. Verses 7:13 -14 reflect the vision when Jesus has gone to the cross and will now be taken to the Ancient of Days.

Verses 9-10 represented the heavenly vision where the Ancient of Days set up the court and the books were opened. But Jesus had yet to return to heaven.

In Chapter 7 there is a dream sequence (big picture) of an earthly vision (4 kingdoms), and a heavenly vision (before and after the cross when Jesus returns to the right hand of the father.

But they are presented in this way (very difficult to see) because we have the 4 kingdoms on earth before the cross and then the 4 kingdoms after the cross. After the cross we will find the evil one (little horn) who is given His kingdom on earth, while in the heavenly vision, Jesus is given dominion over everything by His Father.

Daniel is not straight forward and it is unbeliveably difficult to unpack. But as I mentioned to many, we have to look at these verses and think how they pertain to the Messiah and His plan of salvation.

Those beasts did not outlive Rome. You have mis-identified all of the beasts.

I don't believe so! i think everyone should be able to agree that Babylon was the first kingdom. I think everyone should agree that Medes-Persia conquered Babylon in 539 BC. I think everyone should agree the 3rd kingdom is Greece - even stated this in Chapter 8 by Gabriel and they certainly defeated the Persian Empire. This leaves the final kingdom - the 4th kingdom which we can all see is mentioned by these chapters. So, the big question is who is the 4th. Well, the "iron" kingdom" can be no other, in my opinion that Rome - specifically, pagan Rome. And the 70 weeks of years prophecy went from the second kingdom at 457 BC to 33/34 AD (490 literal years). This was exactly 3.5 years after the cross and obviously, pagan Rome was in power during His first coming.

 

[CTK]

It seems that everyone messes it up by including Rome as the 4th kingdom... it's not...

The 4 kingdoms are:

• Babylon
• Persia
• Greece
• The Diadochi

Thank you for your thoughts. I believe that almost all people who believe the 4th kingdom represents the post-Alexander period which included Ptolemy's, the Seluecid's and much later AE because they are following a "historical" approach. They are looking for any actor or event post Alexander's death that followed him in our history books. And, they contend that 11:5, and almost all of Chapter 11 speaks of these actors and events as opposed to pagan or pagal Rome. But they have nothing to do with the Book of Daniel.

It is God who brought 4 and only 4 kingdoms out of the earth or the sea and the 4th would be the most important kingdom since it would be in power when He arrived at the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy and it would reveal the coming of the little horn after the cross.