Babylon

[ewq1938]

Actually, you are correct about the 7 heads.

Great, that's a start.

But, we cannot deny the word "eighth" as it is written in Rev. 17:11
[11] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

That's speaking of something else. That beast is the 8th of consecutive kings/kingdoms but that particular beast has only 7 heads. Never less, never more.

So then who is the eighth head [of the 10H beast that never died], since it is not being described about the 10H beast having eight heads??
The answer is: it is the "another beast" having two horns ["horn buds"-see note below*] like a [youthful] lamb. Rev. 13:11-15.

No, that is a separate beast. Only the 1st beast has 7 heads. A separate beast cannot add a head to a dif beast. This is not the way to study andf interprete scripture! You are desperately trying to make your 8th head theory have some kind of scriptural backing when it doesn't. This is eisegesis in action.

The youngest world ruling empire in the world today, is the USA, of which is indeed the eighth head on the 10H Beast.

No. None of this is correct. The FP is a man, not a country! Sheesh, the weird and silly things people teach!

 

[Earburner]

Great, that's a start.

Yes! Now we must examine Ancient History (also the Jewish history in 1&2 Maccabees) to see how the four beasts of Daniel performed in the world during their existence as world empires along with God's temporary kingdom on earth, which was Jerusalem/Israel until 70AD.

Btw, in case you didn't notice, "heads" are synonymous with "beasts", whereas "horns" are not.

That's speaking of something else. That beast is the 8th of consecutive kings/kingdoms but that particular beast has only 7 heads. Never less, never more.

You are not listening to the fulness of the prophecy of Dan. 7:3
[3] And FOUR great beasts came up from the sea [of people], diverse one from another.
1. Babylonian empire- 1 head of a Lion.
2. Medio-Persia empire- 1 head of a Bear having a mouth and teeth.
Dan. 7:5.
3. Grecian empire-a Leopard with 4 heads- the "Diadochi". KJV Dan. 7:6
4. Roman empire- 1 head having great iron teeth.
All totalling to 7 heads.

No, that is a separate beast. Only the 1st beast has 7 heads. A separate beast cannot add a head to a dif beast. This is not the way to study andf interprete scripture! You are desperately trying to make your 8th head theory have some kind of scriptural backing when it doesn't. This is eisegesis in action.

The first beast with 7 heads and 10Hs of Rev. is a CONGLOMORATE beast that EVOLVED out from the FOUR beasts of Dan. 7:1-7., after the Roman empire, as shown in Rev. 13:1-2.

No. None of this is correct. The FP is a man, not a country! Sheesh, the weird and silly things people teach!

The false prophet is the "another beast having 2Hs and spoke as a dragon". As of the year 1776, It's called the USA.

The 2 horns [in it's "head"] is revealing that the beast with 2 horns has a head of its own, being the Eighth, of which definitely has its origin from out of the seven heads ["and is of the seven"] of the four previous beasts in Daniel.

 

[claninja]

As stated in the OP, Revelation is in apocalyptic genre, and in the genre, time is used symbolically. Just as Daniel cloaked the distant event of Christ’s first advent in the imminence (within a generation) of “the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem,” Christ cloaked his distant return in the imminent event in which one stone wouldn’t be left upon another at the destruction of the Herod’s temple, which agrees with Daniel’s chapter 2, that in the days of the kings that supplant Rome, he will set up his kingdom.

Furthermore, we can’t have Christ revert to the Old Covenant in his mediation, which both preterism and futurism maintain. The temple is Revelation has to be the one built without hands and not one concerning animal sacrifices,

1 Corinthians 3
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Revelation concerns the mediation of the New Covenant people, not the Old. As a result, the judgments in Revelation are upon the house of God in this age, not the past one,

1 Peter 4
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

It was the Romans that made the merchants rich during John’s time, not the Jews, but pagan Romans can’t fall from moral rectitude, which the prophecy about mystery Babylon transmits. The Jews couldn’t even sit down and eat with the Gentiles, so how could they have committed fornication with the kings of the earth and enriched the merchants before 70 AD? History affirms the Romans invented the “Law Merchant” to maintain economic hegemony in their empire, which collapsed at the end of their empire, ending the political status of the merchants in the kingdoms that supplanted Rome. With the rise of the papacy, the merchants were relegated to an inferior position in society and kept there until the rise of Protestantism. It was the Protestants that restored the Law Merchant and held intercourse with the kings of the earth and established secular societies in the world in which the merchants were enriched, in fulfillment of the prophecy that there would be a great falling away before the Day of the LORD,

2 Thessalonians 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The first-century Jews don’t fit the prophecy in any substantive study, and neither do the Jews in our time; only apostate, magisterial Protestantism fits the prophecy of the Mystery of Babylon, and from a Historicist’s hermeneutic.

Revelation’s use of Old Testament allusions—such as those in chapter 18 concerning Babylon (drawn from Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel)—does not demand that the new referent (whether Rome, apostate religion, first-century Jerusalem, or another corrupt power) literally fulfill every detail of the original Old Testament subject. This is because apocalyptic literature operates through symbolic intensification, not one-to-one historical repetition. The function of these images is theological rather than strictly literal or historical. Thus, hyperbolic and intensified language such as “the great city that rules over the kings of the earth” or “the merchants of the earth weeping over her” need not be fulfilled in a literal, one-to-one fashion.

Therefore , it is not necessary—within the apocalyptic genre—that first-century Jerusalem must have literally ruled over the kings of the earth or been the exact city mourned by global merchants. To claim that Babylon must be, for example, Protestant liberalism or some future globalist system on the basis of a hyper-literal reading of ‘earthly trade merchants’ imposes expectations onto the text that arise more from external frameworks than from the literary conventions of apocalyptic literature itself.

However—and this is important to acknowledge even as a preterist—this same literary flexibility also applies to Revelation 18:24. While the verse may allude to Jesus’ words in Matthew 23:35 (“so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth”), the apocalyptic form does not require that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 be the exclusive or literal fulfillment of Revelation 18:24.

Ultimately, due to: (1) the interpretive vagueness inherent in apocalyptic language, (2) the lack of clear, internal explanation within the oracle itself, and (3) the genre conventions of Revelation, any claim that Babylon “must be” or “cannot be” a particular referent (e.g., Jerusalem, Rome, or a modern institution) rests primarily on one’s interpretive framework rather than an incontrovertible exegetical conclusion.

The question remains - can I use the olivet discourse to interpret the apocalyptic genre of the revelation or no?

 

[ewq1938]

Btw, in case you didn't notice, "heads" are synonymous with "beasts", whereas "horns" are not.

lol, no. A beast has a head or heads but the heads of a beast aren't also beasts. ONE BEAST has 7 heads but those heads ARE NOT more beasts. Your interpretation is so off it affects your entire understanding.

You are not listening to the fulness of the prophecy of Dan. 7:3
[3] And FOUR great beasts came up from the sea [of people], diverse one from another.
1. Babylonian empire- 1 head of a Lion.
2. Medio-Persia empire- 1 head of a Bear having a mouth and teeth.
Dan. 7:5.
3. Grecian empire-a Leopard with 4 heads- the "Diadochi". KJV Dan. 7:6
4. Roman empire- 1 head having great iron teeth.
All totalling to 7 heads.

So? No beast in Daniel has 7 heads like the beast in Rev 13 does. You are conflating two separate and different prophecies into one which is clear error.

The first beast with 7 heads and 10Hs of Rev. is a CONGLOMORATE beast that EVOLVED out from the FOUR beasts of Dan. 7:1-7., after the Roman empire, as shown in Rev. 13:1-2.

The false prophet is the "another beast having 2Hs and spoke as a dragon". As of the year 1776, It's called the USA.

Nope. There is no year in the prophecy and a false prophet is one man, not a whole country.

The 2 horns [in it's "head"] is revealing that the beast with 2 horns has a head of its own, being the Eighth, of which definitely has its origin from out of the seven heads ["and is of the seven"] of the four previous beasts in Daniel.

This is so off and wrong. The beast who is the 8th and is of the 7 is written about the first beast not the second beast. You confused two separate prophecies and now confuse the two beasts of Rev.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


The 7th and 8th is the beast that was and is not. That's easy to identify:

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The second beast with two lamb's horns is not in view here but you add that second beast into a description of the first beast, which is conflation and confusion on your part.

 

[Earburner]

So? No beast in Daniel has 7 heads like the beast in Rev 13 does. You are conflating two separate and different prophecies into one which is clear error.

That's my point!!!
As an Amillennialist, I hold somewhat to an historicist view and not that of a religious view.
In KJV Daniel 7:1-7 it is evident that each of the Four beasts had their own head(s), long before we get to Revelation.

We are shown each of the Four beast empires separately, when they were in power on the face of the earth, from the rise of the Babylonian Empire in 626 BC. to the collapse of the Roman Empire in 476 AD.
Concerning all the four beasts, that is a time span of 1102 years.

Dan. 7:3
[3] And FOUR great beasts came up from the sea [of people], diverse one from another, [each having their respective heads].
Those four beasts were world ruling empires.
1. Babylonian empire- 1 head of a Lion. Dan. 7:4.
2. Medio-Persia empire- 1 head of a Bear having a mouth and teeth. Dan. 7:5.
3. Grecian empire-a Leopard with 4 heads- the "Diadochi". KJV Dan. 7:6
4. Roman empire- 1 head- having great Iron teeth. Dan. 7:7
> All totalling to 7 heads.

Now in Rev. 13:1-3, what THREE animals and/or appendages make up the First beast with 10Hs?
Ans.
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a [New conglomorate] beast rise up out of the sea [just like the four beasts did in Daniel], having [now] seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his [seven] heads the name of blasphemy.

[2] And the [conglomorate] beast which I saw was like unto a [body of a] LEOPARD, and his feet were as the feet of a BEAR, and his mouth as the mouth [head] of a LION: and the dragon [satan] gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (All of that totals to 6 heads).

So then, in verse 2, Who are we missing here???
Ans. We are missing the 7th head!! That head which had great Iron Teeth. No...it's not satan. The Great Iron Teeth is symbolic of the Roman Empire.
[3] And I saw one of his [seven] heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
It is that 7th head which had great IRON TEETH. It was that head that was wounded to death by a sword and did live. Rev. 13:3,14.

So now that we know what happened to the 7th head, being that of the defunct Roman Empire, it is safe to say that it has remained alive, but has EVOLVED into numerous manifestations incognito. We can see it down through the years as being early Europe, the Papacy, the League of Nations, NATO, the EU, all of which is the "ten toes of iron and clay, being partly strong and partly broken". Is this how the 7th head becomes the 8th head?

No!! The 8th head is of the seven, meaning that it is generated from out of the seven heads, being a head unto itself.
For that we are left to only one logical conclusion: the beast that has two horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon is the 8th head, aka the USA.

 

[ewq1938]

That's my point!!!
As an Amillennialist, I hold somewhat to an historicist view and not that of a religious view.
In KJV Daniel 7:1-7 it is evident that each of the Four beasts had their own head(s), long before we get to Revelation.

We are shown each of the Four beast empires separately, when they were in power on the face of the earth, from the rise of the Babylonian Empire in 626 BC. to the collapse of the Roman Empire in 476 AD.
Concerning all the four beasts, that is a time span of 1102 years.

Dan. 7:3
[3] And FOUR great beasts came up from the sea [of people], diverse one from another, [each having their respective heads].
Those four beasts were world ruling empires.
1. Babylonian empire- 1 head of a Lion. Dan. 7:4.
2. Medio-Persia empire- 1 head of a Bear having a mouth and teeth. Dan. 7:5.
3. Grecian empire-a Leopard with 4 heads- the "Diadochi". KJV Dan. 7:6
4. Roman empire- 1 head- having great Iron teeth. Dan. 7:7
> All totalling to 7 heads.

Now in Rev. 13:1-3, what THREE animals and/or appendages make up the First beast with 10Hs?
Ans.
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a [New conglomorate] beast rise up out of the sea [just like the four beasts did in Daniel], having [now] seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his [seven] heads the name of blasphemy.

[2] And the [conglomorate] beast which I saw was like unto a [body of a] LEOPARD, and his feet were as the feet of a BEAR, and his mouth as the mouth [head] of a LION: and the dragon [satan] gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (All of that totals to 6 heads).

So then, in verse 2, Who are we missing here???
Ans. We are missing the 7th head!! That head which had great Iron Teeth. No...it's not satan. The Great Iron Teeth is symbolic of the Roman Empire.
[3] And I saw one of his [seven] heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
It is that 7th head which had great IRON TEETH. It was that head that was wounded to death by a sword and did live. Rev. 13:3,14.

So now that we know what happened to the 7th head, being that of the defunct Roman Empire, it is safe to say that it has remained alive, but has EVOLVED into numerous manifestations incognito. We can see it down through the years as being early Europe, the Papacy, the League of Nations, NATO, the EU, all of which is the "ten toes of iron and clay, being partly strong and partly broken". Is this how the 7th head becomes the 8th head?

No!! The 8th head is of the seven, meaning that it is generated from out of the seven heads, being a head unto itself.
For that we are left to only one logical conclusion: the beast that has two horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon is the 8th head, aka the USA.

AMAZING


ly bad. Almost nothing in this post is correct. You don't even understand that the beast with two horns is a man, one single man. He isn't an 8th head because there is no such thing in any part of Rev, and being a man he isn't an entire country. You have Rev and Daniel mixed together. You might as well write a book of prophecy and name it, "Danielation".

 

[Earburner]

AMAZING


ly bad. Almost nothing in this post is correct. You don't even understand that the beast with two horns is a man, one single man. He isn't an 8th head because there is no such thing in any part of Rev, and being a man he isn't an entire country. You have Rev and Daniel mixed together. You might as well write a book of prophecy and name it, "Danielation".

In Dan. 8, was the head of a Ram with two horns about two men, or was it about the symbiotic relationship of two forms of government/military, working in unison as one? See Dan. 2:39; 7:5; 8:3-4, 20
Dan. 8:20
[20] The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings [kingdoms] of Media and Persia.

Here is some biblical history concerning Dan. 8:20. Maybe it will deliver you out of church-ianity's fantasy land.

6. The Medes And The Persians | Bible.org

The history of the rise and fall of the Medes and the Persians forms an important background for over two hundred years of Biblical history. Located in the area south of the Caspian Sea and east of the Zagros Mountains, its original domain stretched for 600 miles north and south, and 250 miles...

bible.org

 

[ewq1938]

Maybe it will deliver you out of church-ianity's fantasy land.

Members of church-ianity always think they are not part of church-ianity.