How the "Church" is defined

[Randy Kluth]

Or just needing to grow? That's why I don't judge, I can't know.

Much love!

Sometimes we can't know if a pastor is a hireling or just a flawed pastor. Sometimes we can't know if a Christian is reborn or just exercising spiritual gifts to be seen of men. If God reveals it, sometimes we are given to know. But yes, we shouldn't judge.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Well, the word "church" is just a synonym for "gathering," yes. And point well taken--it conjures up the notion of a church gathering, a local assembly of Christians for worship.

This is not, I agree, an enormous ecclesiastical structure, although I don't find anything wrong with organizing as such. But when the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church or the Anglican Church begins to decide what all local assemblies must do to be "Christian," then it is indeed over the top. The Church organization should not function like a political state, but should only monitor which churches should be marked as doctrinally orthodox or not, for purposes of fellowshipping or dis-fellowshipping.

Political States that claim to be "Christian States" have every right to prohibit heretics who use their heresies to disrupt the social order. But generally, Christian expression takes place wherever Christians gather. And both denominational and local churches have the right to judge whether one church wishes to sanction or to be in fellowship with another church.

The Bible does outline an enormous ecclesiastical hierarchy, in the Corinthian letters and Ephesians. While the Church isn't supposed to function as a political entity, there is no doubt that the hierarchy God established in the NT Church is enormous in its scope. It's the only logical way that the lay members who live in different parts of the world can be guided into doctrinal unity. Denominations have absolutely no scriptural authority to decide who is practicing authentic Christianity when their very existence contradicts scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Bible does outline an enormous ecclesiastical hierarchy, in the Corinthian letters and Ephesians. While the Church isn't supposed to function as a political entity, there is no doubt that the hierarchy God established in the NT Church is enormous in its scope. It's the only logical way that the lay members who live in different parts of the world can be guided into doctrinal unity. Denominations have absolutely no scriptural authority to decide who is practicing authentic Christianity when their very existence contradicts scripture.

I disagree for the most part. Yes, the Church is one Body for Christ. Christ has only one body, and we are all part of that body in a spiritual sense. We get all of our orders, and all of our spirituality from him.

But this has little to do with government structures. The only structures God established was the nation state, and at times, empires. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church established their enormous size while they were a part of an empire.

Religious structures tend to form different shapes based on the particular political structure of the state. If the state is highly centralized, there is a need for more structure to maintain order among the churches. If the state is very decentralized, there is room for lots of creative religious expression.

The idea is for the State to be supported by religious unity, instead of infected by religious infighting. If unity is possible among different religious denominations, then this benefits the state, and it in turns benefits the churches. But if the denominations differ in matters of doctrinal orthodoxy, there has to be a semblance of order without spiritual unity.

The danger happens when a particular denomination becomes more powerful than others, and then begins to dictate things politically, by using the engine of the state to enforce agreement. That's akin to the Inquisition.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Jesus begins with:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

It's like Jesus told the Pharisees:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So while they were professing to be doing the works ie: prophesying in his name, casting out devils,
they were omitting the weightier matters of judgement, mercy, and faith.

Hugs

And anyone trusting solely in works of any sort for salvation is still dead in their trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.