How the "Church" is defined
- Thread starter Randy Kluth
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I agree, though I wasn't talking church discipline. I was just interested to see if others agree with me that the term "Christian" applies, biblically, to all who *profess* to being Christian and who exhibit the prerequisite external characteristics of the same, because I notice that some wear their Christianity externally, but are found wanting internally.
I have no interest in personally addressing or judging such people--just take note of them. I think we should distrust those who appear to be Christian *externally,* although I think we should refer to them as "Christians" and encourage them to keep on living exemplary Christian behavior, external or not.
Genuine Christianity begins at spiritual rebirth. There are many in the church who are not yet spiritually reborn. My daughter seems to have been like this, or perhaps grew up like I did, spiritually impoverished. We're both now spiritually revived or reborn.
But there are people in the church who have not given their lives over completely to Christ, who basically live by the *law* of Christianity. They live exemplary lives, and have varying degrees of spiritual experience. They do not, however, exhibit genuine Christianity until they get born again.
You might ask, How do people have Christian experience and exhibit Christian behavior without being born again? Well, they do when they don't turn over control of their lives to the Lord. Only then do they experience a transformation of their human nature. Only then do they have a "spiritual rebirth."
It isn't enough to talk with God and experience His presence in our lives. We must accept him as our Lord, determining all that we do, so that we do not live carnal lives, managing ourselves with indifference to what the Lord wants from us. To manage our own lives is tacit rebellion against our Creator, who made us in His image, to be our Lord and Father.
I do think a lot of people know God exists, and that Christ is the way to live. I think they do some of this while retaining control over their lives, choosing when to obey God and when not to obey God. This is not the born again life.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I find some interesting people who profess to be athiests are actually closer to the christian walk than some christians.
But there is some kind of stigma the name christian is like a plague to them.
They don't want to give up their "independence" on themselves. They don't want to trust something "out there" .
Because God to them IS out there somewhere.
They don't understand or want to understand the concept of God "IN" here.
But some manage themselves better, some of their fruit looks and even smells better.
I know the Bible tells us we need to confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.
And yet I think God hears them in their own language.
Isn't it in Acts that the name Christian was given to the Apostles and disciples?
Who gave it to them?
I also heard that it was intended as a slur for those who followed Jesus.
I don't know if that true.
But I don't think the name matters so much as the one walking the walk.
Just my opinion
Hugs
Well, the word "church" is just a synonym for "gathering," yes. And point well taken--it conjures up the notion of a church gathering, a local assembly of Christians for worship.
This is not, I agree, an enormous ecclesiastical structure, although I don't find anything wrong with organizing as such. But when the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church or the Anglican Church begins to decide what all local assemblies must do to be "Christian," then it is indeed over the top. The Church organization should not function like a political state, but should only monitor which churches should be marked as doctrinally orthodox or not, for purposes of fellowshipping or dis-fellowshipping.
Political States that claim to be "Christian States" have every right to prohibit heretics who use their heresies to disrupt the social order. But generally, Christian expression takes place wherever Christians gather. And both denominational and local churches have the right to judge whether one church wishes to sanction or to be in fellowship with another church.
I think we can compare building character as something we do, to spiritual rebirth, which is what God does for us, that these are different, but can look the same.
Much love!
Perhaps, but what I'm talking about requires that we not evaluate others by the way we look at ourselves as flawed, growing believers. I'm talking about people who are not growing, but simply living in the knowledge of Christianity, experiencing some of its spiritual effect, without truly committing.
It may be difficult for us to look at that because we aren't ourselves doing that. But I do see it in the church at times. I see a boat load of weak Christians, less than mature Christians, but relatively few who live by the knowledge of Christianity without truly turning the reins completely over to Christ.
Still, I group all of these together by the word "Christians," because I think this is how the Bible treats them. No matter whether we are on board completely or not, mature or immature, we are all treated by our profession of faith. Whether we get there or not is up to the individual. We should still treat them all as "Christians," and continue to encourage them in it, letting them decide whether to go all the way or not.
True that is. Some are taught that it is being gullible to accept a word on "faith." To turn one's self over to an invisible God is treated as folly in our society, and so, people are embarassed to embrace Christianity.
Therefore, they have to experience it. There are those, however, who experience it and yet still do not completely commit to it. They act Christian truly at times, and yet do not exhibit a spiritual nature of complete dependence upon God. They may like some of the benefits of spiritual, supernatural experience, but they don't want to lose control over their pride. They haven't been born again, I think?
But absolutely, some non-Christians behave better than some Christians. Some Christians actually commit crimes. Some non-Christians live by the letter of the law, and have a ton of compassion for the needy.
But God judges everything by Christ. God wants to see Christ's nature in us, and not just good behavior. So we should encourage good behavior from non-Christians. And we shouldn't push something down their throats that seems repugnant to them, or even "stupid."
But if they show openness, we shouldn't be ashamed to invite them to experience the eternal, omnipresent Deity.
Now who would want to turn that down!
Yes, I think this is best, and how the Bible is written. I think the Bible does make a distinction, but it's not for me to say someone isn't reborn. If they say they are, I do just like what you say, encourage them in the faith, make sure they hear the true full gospel from my lips, and know they are in God's good hands!
Much love!
So the world that the saints will judge is a local church?
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
I agree with your observations and have been seriously challenged in this area myself.
Cultural Christianity, for want of a better term, is a default setting that many do not want to be dislodged from. There are many flavours of Cultural Christianity which tend to be substitutes for relationships which promote spiritual growth in favour of keeping a man-centred corporate business model intact.
The charismatic revival of the 1970's & '80's in NZ was like fresh rain on dry ground and the use of spiritual gifts blessed many, including myself, but the enemy is an arch-deceiver and some pentecostal cultures became very toxic, and still are with pride taking centre-stage and doctrine kicked out the door.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I know the Bible tells us we need to confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.
And yet I think God hears them in their own language.
They deny Him , thus their good works wont save them . Yes JESUS must be confessed by mouth
and believed that GOD rose Him from the dead in order to be saved .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Very good my friend . You know too that JESUS must be believed in to be saved .
But more and more are going down the inclusive many path road . We must contend for the one true gospel that saves
only more and more .
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Lol. Who doesn't like custard? But there's custard, and there's custard.
That's what happens when verses are taken out of context (which you did). Randy is speaking about Christendom in general (and making judgments), and Paul was speaking about a particular church and what should be done rather than taking brothers to court (1 Cor 6:1-4): Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust [the world], and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church [the local assembly].
And in that context he told the Christians that if they could not judge in minor issues how would they judge the world and angels (at a future time after the Second Coming of Christ)? And this has absolutely nothing to do with what Randy had to say.
It is none of our business to sit in judgment over those who profess to be Christians in Christendom. Christendom is neither the Church (the Body of Christ) nor the local assembly. But within the local church, the saints are to make necessary judgments, as we know from Scripture.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
I believe God has made provisions for every person in every walk of life.
And it's not our job to judge those without the church, that's God's job.
We're supposed to help each other in the church stay in alignment.
If your an athiest then I reckon that would be considered outside the church,
And if you are outside the church, Paul says that the Gentiles that hold themselves to their own laws, will be judged by their own laws.
Because it's not about just hearing, it's about the doing what's written in them.
If athiests are not under grace as many proclaim, then they are under works.
And their works will be their judge.
Not us.
God Bless
Hugs
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
I believe God has made provisions for every person in every walk of life.
And it's not our job to judge those without the church, that's God's job.
We're supposed to help each other in the church stay in alignment.
If your an athiest then I reckon that would be considered outside the church,
And if you are outside the church, Paul says that the Gentiles that hold themselves to their own laws, will be judged by their own laws.
Because it's not about just hearing, it's about the doing what's written in them.
If athiests are not under grace as many proclaim, then they are under works.
And their works will be their judge.
Not us.
God Bless
Hugs
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Why are the people in these verses judged to be workers of iniquity?
Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Jesus begins with:
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
It's like Jesus told the Pharisees:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
So while they were professing to be doing the works ie: prophesying in his name, casting out devils,
they were omitting the weightier matters of judgement, mercy, and faith.
Hugs
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