How to be saved...

[Triumph1300]

I don't believe in man's churches

Yes, I figured that, Kobo.

 

[dev553344]

I don't believe in man's churches or their many doctrines.

I asked God to teach me of Himself just as He said He would during the time of the prophets. I opened the book and began to read it for myself and that was when I realized what Jesus Christ is, He is a Covenant and we are called to obey Him, just as the Children of Israel were called to obey the Covenant God gave the people through Moses.

Well the apostles knew this teaching led to the damnation of everyone: Matthew 19:25-26. So what will then be you're idea of salvation?

 

[Triumph1300]

Kobo, I know a person who used a big black felt pen crossing out scriptures she did not like in her bible.


Hopefully you do not do the same with this one:


Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

[dev553344]

This is going to be interesting, believe me.
I saw a discussion like this before.
Sit back, grab a cup of coffee.
(I am not saying "Hold my beer", that would trigger another response.....)

I have a "red letter Christian" friend on facebook. He's very spicy and interesting. But not a teaching I believe. He's all love and no conviction.

 

[Kobo]

Well the apostles knew this teaching led to the damnation of everyone: Matthew 19:25-26.

I am afraid that is not what the apostles in fact said. Consider the same set of verses in their original context and see how they take on an entirely different meaning from the one you assumed there

Matthew 19:16-30

16 A man came to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?”
17 Jesus answered, “Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good. But if you want to have eternal life, obey the law’s commands.”
18 The man asked, “Which ones?”
Jesus answered, “‘You must not murder anyone, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not tell lies about others,
19 you must respect your father and mother,’[e] and ‘love your neighbor[f] the same as you love yourself.’[g]”
20 The young man said, “I have obeyed all these commands. What else do I need?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, then go and sell all that you own. Give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come and follow me!”
22 But when the young man heard Jesus tell him to give away his money, he was sad. He didn’t want to do this, because he was very rich. So he left.
23 Then Jesus said to his followers, “The truth is, it will be very hard for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom. 24 Yes, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom.”

25 The followers were amazed to hear this. They asked, “Then who can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “This is something that people cannot do. But God can do anything.”
27 Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28 Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life.
30 Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.​

His apostles had already left everything they had in order to follow Him, in obedience to Jesus Christ's own commandment, the very same commandment that the rich young man refused to obey. Granted in their case, none of them were as rich as this rich young man was, but the same commandments apply to both rich and poor(Matthew 10:34-39).

So what will then be you're idea of salvation?

Salvation as explained in John 3:16-21, is the redemption of one who believes from Death(the condemnation of Sin). Such a one is in place of Death gifted with eternal life(Life after death);.

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”​

NB. Salvation is not from sin but instead from Death(perish in the grave), the penalty imposed by God, from the time of Adam, on all who die in their sins.

 

[Kobo]

Kobo, I know a person who used a big black felt pen crossing out scriptures she did not like in her bible.
Hopefully you do not do the same with this one:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Are you trying to ask whether I believe the Bible is the "Word of God", holy and all that?

 

[Triumph1300]

But Kobo, you said you don't believe in going to church.
How is that going to fit in all of this?
You forsake the assembly, which is not what the Holy Spirit wants you to do.

Kobo, do you make a joyful noise unto the Lord all by yourself?

 

[Triumph1300]

Are you trying to ask whether I believe the Bible is the "Word of God", holy and all that?

You ignored answering post 43:

I repeat it here:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


And post 47 ???

 

[dev553344]

I am afraid that is not what the apostles in fact said. Consider the same set of verses in their original context and see how they take on an entirely different meaning from the one you assumed there

Matthew 19:16-30

16 A man came to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?”
17 Jesus answered, “Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good. But if you want to have eternal life, obey the law’s commands.”
18 The man asked, “Which ones?”
Jesus answered, “‘You must not murder anyone, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not tell lies about others,
19 you must respect your father and mother,’[e] and ‘love your neighbor[f] the same as you love yourself.’[g]”
20 The young man said, “I have obeyed all these commands. What else do I need?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, then go and sell all that you own. Give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come and follow me!”
22 But when the young man heard Jesus tell him to give away his money, he was sad. He didn’t want to do this, because he was very rich. So he left.
23 Then Jesus said to his followers, “The truth is, it will be very hard for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom. 24 Yes, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom.”

25 The followers were amazed to hear this. They asked, “Then who can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “This is something that people cannot do. But God can do anything.”
27 Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28 Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life.
30 Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.​

His apostles had already left everything they had in order to follow Him, in obedience to Jesus Christ's own commandment, the very same commandment that the rich young man refused to obey. Granted in their case, none of them were as rich as this rich young man was, but the same commandments apply to both rich and poor(Matthew 10:34-39).
Salvation as explained in John 3:16-21, is the redemption of one who believes from Death(the condemnation of Sin). Such a one is in place of Death gifted with eternal life(Life after death);.

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”​

NB. Salvation is not from sin but instead from Death(perish in the grave), the penalty imposed by God, from the time of Adam, on all who die in their sins.

Well I disagree with you, the Apostles (Matthew 19:25-26) were indeed hitting on the fact that we all fall short of the glory of Jesus the Christ. I think if someone here on earth says they are not a sinner they are lying to themselves (Luke 18:9-14). And you're religious views suggest that if a person sins they're going to hell, because you indicated the sinner won't be going to heaven. And there are only two destinations that the bible decrees, heaven and hell.

I learned my religion from different churches and then deviate a little based on how I interpret the bible. And we're not all that different in our ideas. But I think to be clean from sin is a life long process that has it's forward and backward steps. That said I think salvation comes down to mercy from God, which is why I quoted that verse.

 

[Kobo]

You ignored answering post 43:

I repeat it here:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
And post 47 ???

I don't go to church because Jesus Christ, the one who is the Law for me, never commanded that I go to Church.

You see, Jesus Christ is the New Covenant which God Himself sent me to live by. And just like the Old Covenant, it is a sin to add or remove from the commandments of God. Read Mark 7 to understand why you should not add or remove the doctrines and commandments of men to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is my one and only Teacher and Master, and since I cannot serve the whims of another, I am bound only to obeying His commandments, which are God's own commandments to me.

Imagine the New Covenant as you would a contract between your person and God. The terms of the agreement are defined in the teachings of Jesus Christ and no one has the power to change or modify that agreement - the contract is immutable and it is eternal. Jesus Christ ratified the contract when He declared, on the cross, "It is finished". So when anyone, even Paul, tries to suggest a commandment, it is in my interest to consult my contract before obeying such a commandment, since it benefits me nothing to add chains where there are none specified in the contract that I have. Does this help any?

 

[Kobo]

Well I disagree with you, the Apostles were indeed hitting on the fact that we all fall short of the glory of Jesus the Christ.

You claim we all "fall short" but right there beginning from verse 27, Peter tells you that we all do no such thing. Peter and the other apostles did what the rich young man could not do. There are no excuses for those who refuse to obey. And again, there is no mention of a "sin" in that context.

The rich young man was a jewish man who had the option of going back to living according to the rules of the Old Covenant. He asked Jesus Christ what it was he, the rich young man, needed to do to become a follower of Jesus Christ. Since the cost was too high for him, he probably just went back to the old covenant belief he had before then.

I think if someone here on earth says they are not a sinner they are lying to themselves (Luke 18:9-14).

Not according to Jesus Christ, such a one is not lying. Again, this all comes down to whether you believe what God says, or you do not. The problem I see here is that you don't think God's word is credible enough for you to trust in it. Am I wrong?

Jesus Christ is the very Word out of God's own mouth - the very Truth of God. Either you trust God enough to accept and obey what He says or you don't.

And you're religious views suggest that if you sin you're going to hell, because you indicated the sinner won't be going to heaven. And there are only two destinations that the bible decrees, heaven and hell.

These are the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself - not my views.
Open the books of the gospel and read each from start to finish for yourself so you can realize that Heaven and Hell were introduced by Jesus Christ, not by me, and according to Jesus Christ, it is indeed those who refuse to obey His teachings that will be a part of the Hell He has prepared.
It all makes sense if you just think about it. Hell is a place of ETERNAL damnation so those who will be trapped in there have to have eternal life. And since the gift of eternal life is only awarded to those who believe in Jesus Christ, it follows that those who end up in hell believe in Jesus Christ.

I learned my religion from different churches and then deviate a little based on how I interpret the bible. And we're not all that different in our ideas. But I think to be clean from sin is a life long process that has it's forward and backward steps. That said I think salvation comes down to mercy from God, which is why I quoted that verse.

If you believe the doctrines and traditions of men(churches) over the teachings of Jesus Christ, that is a personal choice you make there.

 

[dev553344]

You claim we all "fall short" but right there beginning from verse 27, Peter tells you that we all do no such thing. Peter and the other apostles did what the rich young man could not do. There are no excuses for those who refuse to obey. And again, there is no mention of a "sin" in that context.

The rich young man was a jewish man who had the option of going back to living according to the rules of the Old Covenant. He asked Jesus Christ what it was he, the rich young man, needed to do to become a follower of Jesus Christ. Since the cost was too high for him, he probably just went back to the old covenant belief he had before then.
Not according to Jesus Christ, such a one is not lying. Again, this all comes down to whether you believe what God says, or you do not. The problem I see here is that you don't think God's word is credible enough for you to trust in it. Am I wrong?

Jesus Christ is the very Word out of God's own mouth - the very Truth of God. Either you trust God enough to accept and obey what He says or you don't.
These are the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself - not my views.
Open the books of the gospel and read each from start to finish for yourself so you can realize that Heaven and Hell were introduced by Jesus Christ, not by me, and according to Jesus Christ, it is indeed those who refuse to obey His teachings that will be a part of the Hell He has prepared.
It all makes sense if you just think about it. Hell is a place of ETERNAL damnation so those who will be trapped in there have to have eternal life. And since the gift of eternal life is only awarded to those who believe in Jesus Christ, it follows that those who end up in hell believe in Jesus Christ.
If you believe the doctrines and traditions of men(churches) over the teachings of Jesus Christ, that is a personal choice you make there.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Kobo]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I tend to agree with John there because if you read on the rest of what he said in the same context...
1 John 1: 8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we are saying that God is a liar and that we don’t accept his true teaching.
​

In the same very next verse, John states that when you ask God to forgive you, He forgives you all of your sins(hence you are made clean of sin) Obviously, if God has forgiven you your sins, do you still have those sins?
When you commit new ones, sure, but right when God forgives you, do you still have sin?

But again this is because what John says aligns with the teaching of Jesus Christ which says that God forgives us all of our sins(not some of them) when we ask Him. Also, what John says here does not contract what Jesus Christ declared of those who will accept and obey His commandments, rather than continue in disobedience.

 

[Triumph1300]

I don't go to church because Jesus Christ, the one who is the Law for me, never commanded that I go to Church.

Well, scripture is full of instructions for the gathering of believers (=the church), such as teachers, elders, leaders... etc etc.
The Bible is very clear about it all.

And since it's all inspired by the Holy Spirit I doubt that you are on the right track with your church attendance refusal.
I wish you the best in your Christian life and I am finished posting on this subject.

 

[amadeus]

I use the consequences to not break mans law when tempted. I never thought of using it for God's law. And I am noticing a coming and going of the holy spirit when I sin.

Yielding to versus quenching the Spirit of God!

 

[amadeus]

I think saying is one thing, but doing has more power.

There is power in the tongue, but who is leading our tongue? Consider the bit in a horse's mouth!

"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10

"Ought not so to be" but when we lead ourselves rather than allowing God to lead us through the Holy Spirit, what should we expect?

 

[amadeus]

I am afraid that is not what the apostles in fact said. Consider the same set of verses in their original context and see how they take on an entirely different meaning from the one you assumed there

Matthew 19:16-30

16 A man came to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?”
17 Jesus answered, “Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good. But if you want to have eternal life, obey the law’s commands.”
18 The man asked, “Which ones?”
Jesus answered, “‘You must not murder anyone, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not tell lies about others,
19 you must respect your father and mother,’[e] and ‘love your neighbor[f] the same as you love yourself.’[g]”
20 The young man said, “I have obeyed all these commands. What else do I need?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, then go and sell all that you own. Give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come and follow me!”
22 But when the young man heard Jesus tell him to give away his money, he was sad. He didn’t want to do this, because he was very rich. So he left.
23 Then Jesus said to his followers, “The truth is, it will be very hard for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom. 24 Yes, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom.”

25 The followers were amazed to hear this. They asked, “Then who can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “This is something that people cannot do. But God can do anything.”
27 Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28 Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life.
30 Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.​

His apostles had already left everything they had in order to follow Him, in obedience to Jesus Christ's own commandment, the very same commandment that the rich young man refused to obey. Granted in their case, none of them were as rich as this rich young man was, but the same commandments apply to both rich and poor(Matthew 10:34-39).
Salvation as explained in John 3:16-21, is the redemption of one who believes from Death(the condemnation of Sin). Such a one is in place of Death gifted with eternal life(Life after death);.

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”​

NB. Salvation is not from sin but instead from Death(perish in the grave), the penalty imposed by God, from the time of Adam, on all who die in their sins.

And then with this salvation from death consider the reason Jesus came to us:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

 

[Timtofly]

You will come to realize that it is indeed not the external that is the problem but the mind. And as Jesus Christ said, it is what is stored in your heart that you are in fact bringing forth when you are tempted.

The external is where the majority of what we store inside comes from. God did not pre-program us to sin. God wrote His desires in us. Everything else comes in externally as we grow from an infant on.

That is why infant baptism "happened". Some people got the bright idea that doing so would prevent corruption from entering in after that point. Water does not prevent one from one's environment, and external experiences.

We control sin and temptation in our minds and thoughts. What we choose to think about is what we allow to control us.

 

[Kobo]

We control sin and temptation in our minds and thoughts. What we choose to think about is what we allow to control us.

I agree.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So this whole OP comes down to one thing that I would like to discuss. How have you as a Christian found ways and what are they to relieve your temptations and become free from sin? I found that for me daily Mass is helping, but I would like to hear other peoples examples.

The Holy Spirit sanctifieds us - He makes us holy. We can't make ourselves holy. The light shines on our darkness and reveals it to us. We learn over time to hate sin. It's a process. We are being tested and refined as we mature. So your willingness to pray everyday and asking for guidance is working -God is working in you to transform you. Eventually we hate sin in our own lives and quickly dismiss it without giving it a second thought.
The other thing is selfishness. The more one is self focused, the more sinful you are. Someone said sin means this: remove the "s" and the "n" and you get "i".
On a side note, a remedy for depression is to go out and help someone. When you are done, go find someone else. After a while you forget what you were depressed about. "Love one another."
Then of course to focus on Jesus and things above is always key.