Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

[2nd Timothy Group]

So one incident where God stopped someone from sinning in order to protect his servant makes God all controlling? Please! Yes, God works in human affairs. If he didn't why would we pray for his will to be done?. But the very fact that we are told to pray that shows us that his will is often not done on earth.

Well good grief. I'm incredibly sorry that I failed your expectations. Had I known that you wanted a specific number of examples . . . I would have served you better. I'm just pointing our what I've read . . . kick the ball, not the player.

Daniel 2:21 NLT - "He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars."

It's like looking through pure glass . . . clear as can be.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

How could it be? "Voluntary humility" is the difficult way of saying false humility. Or, we could just say that through our character, we're liars.

No, Free will, which seems to be "independent choice" is not the same thing as false character.

false humility. How is that not very close to false or fake submission or subjection to what? Their own image? 2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


Who quickens the dead?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The understanding is we all have FREE WILL to CHOOSE or reject Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Jesus most certainly spoke of it by using the words "whosoever will". If you are a "whosoever", then you will either choose Him or reject Him.
John 3:18

According to the Scripture below, it sounds like the Lord's Plan is greater than our own. Judge for yourself:

John 6:37 NKJV - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

 

[dev553344]

God gave them the choice, Pharoah He did not give the choice.

This is why you have a good argument. When we give into sin we become a slave to sin. My advice is to pray to God and ask him to deliver us to choose his will. Then you become free from sin and have more freedom of choice, but if we are slaves to sin we may choose which sin we perform, and when we are slaves to God we may choose which good to do, so we still have freedom of choice, but perhaps our choices are limited somewhat. Also God may intervene and cause us to do good because our hearts desire it even if we are slaves to sin:

Romans 6:16-18

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

God gave them the choice, Pharoah He did not give the choice.

Pharaoh had it extra rough. Not only was he blinded by the Curse of Adam and Eve, but the Lord caused him to not own personal choice over specific decisions. And why?

Romans 9:17 NKJV - "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

I don't mind if people judge me, for I am easy to misjudge. But the Scriptures lay it all out for us to see, thus, these folks can judge God's Word as they like. (I'd keep the 20-foot rule. )

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

But if God closes their eyes and stops up their ears and hardens their hearts lest at any time they should turn to Him and be healed?

That's exactly what the Scripture says . . . and the only thing it can possibly mean is that the Lord is in control and that we are not.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

“whosoever” will ...without His Spirit man can do nothing. ...can do nothing.
2 Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing (have no power) against the truth, but [only](given power) for the truth.


did Christ not teach one must be born again and that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit? And the carnal man not born of Spirit receives not the things which of God? Pause, Consider...

that born (comes forth out from) flesh is flesh.
That born (comes forth out from) Spirit is Spirit.
Then why does the natural man insists over and over that which comes forth of God is born of flesh instead of being of born of Spirit; born of the power of God and not men.

Outstanding points. The Lord has allowed you to see Him through His word.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The bible says we are born again not by the flesh nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God, so why claim it was our freewill?

This is the Power of God! That because of His Plan, He chooses who shall receive His Grace and Mercy and who shall not. But one thing you and I know is this . . . we do not know His Plan, nor does He require that we do.

Exodus 33:19 NKJV - "Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

 

[Behold]

If we don't have freewill, then God has no right to hold us accountable for rejecting Christ.

If we have no freewill, then when God tells us to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, ...... this would be an ignorant thing to ask us to do.

If we have no freewill, then Jesus is self deceived when He tells us that if we don't believe in Him, we will die in our sins.

If we have no freewill then the world "believe" isn't possible, so, there goes the Gospel of the Grace of God that is offered to all who will believe it and be born again.

If we have no Freewill, then John 3:16 is the Devil's lie.

If we have no free will, then God is a lying psychopath, a cosmic tyrant, , who puts people into Revelation 20:11, based on damning them for Rejecting Christ with their free will that isn't there.

If we have no free will, then the Lambs book of life is filled with a lot of lying believers who are all born again by believing the Gospel and given the New Birth.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

When we give into sin we become a slave to sin. My advice is to pray to God and ask him to deliver us to choose his will. Then you become free from sin and have more freedom of choice, but if we are slaves to sin we may choose which sin we perform, and when we are slaves to God we may choose which good to do, so we still have freedom of choice, but perhaps our choices are limited somewhat. Also God may intervene and cause us to do good because our hearts desire it even if we are slaves to sin

This is absolutely remarkable wisdom. Thank you! This is actually going into my personal dictionary that I routinely build.

 

[Behold]

This is why you have a good argument. When we give into sin we become a slave to sin.

Here is a better way to see it.

In the "time of the Gentiles" there are 2 dominions : as stated by Paul.

1. Dominion of the Law

2. Dominion of Grace

In the life of a person, these exist like this. "under, the".

See that?
So, in both cases, you can be under the dominion. of one of those..
Now notice this carefully...= "the power of sin, is THE Law".""""
See that?
Now notice this. "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the LAW.
And what is the curse?
Its the laws power to empower you to want to sin.
The means that the Law's dominion empowers you to sin. It causes it. It energizes your flesh to overpower your will to resist if you are born again, and if you are not ,then you just sin and enjoy it.

Christ has redeemed you from this curse, if you are born again, BUT= you have to walk in that, in your mind of faith, by Right Believing.

How to do that, if you are born again?

You exist not under the law., is how., as if you exit there, you are "fallen from Grace".

Whats all that mean?

It means that to stop sinning, you stop believing that you can resist sin and win........and, it means that you stop believing that you can lose your salvation.

So, what happens when you get into that MIND of Right Believing?

A.) you stop being under the law, and the CURSE is broken and ended, and you thereby start to exist in the correct mind of Faith, that is Right Believing.

And in that right mind, that is now renewed, you are walking in the Spirit.
Walking in the Spirit, is to exist in the Grace of God, as the renewed mind which is the "mind of Christ".

This is how you walk IN The Light., and when you are there, you are not going to sin, as you are delivered from the curse of the Law that was empowering you to sin and sin and confess and sin again.

You end up here....>"Christ always gives me the VICTORY" as Paul teaches you.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You would think freewill was written in every chapter and every paragraph of the bible, in fact there are just a few mentions in the OT and these all have regard to freewill offerings because God never demands back any gifts He has given.

You cannot read any book or pamphlet on the subject of science without you soon encounter an affirmation of evolution, it is pure brainwash and it works.

You cannot read hardly any book or pamphlet about christianity without encountering an affirmation of human freewill, it is pure brainwash.

Jesus never spoke of it, nor did any of His apostles.

There is everywhere the choice obey and live or perish.

This is not freewill, if we obey we will be doing God's will, if we die, dead men do not have freewill.

What makes freewill impossible is the penalty for non obedience i.e. death. When the devil said "you will not die you will be like God ..." He not only made God out to be a liar but he tricked them into believing they had freewill.

He still works this deception today.

tough topic with many varying opinions. Surely nothing will be agreed upon and it will end up as one big stinking dispute. What is concerning is the freewill doctrine always seems to exclude others as the lesser “than I am” for a choice. When I’m not sure how that fits with Philippians 2: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

do we consider what we attribute to the working of men, and what we attribute to the working of God? In that born of flesh is flesh and that born of Spirit is Spirit.

evidence though will be this thread ...only God can change the mind when it is set on a thing.

 

[Nancy]

Why would we be told this other than giving us the choice who to let control us? Which can only happen if we have freewill.

But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.

Amen,
Either we renew our minds with His word or, we are still bent towards worldly things.
Unbelievers are actually programmed, really. Programmed by this world through a gazillion of things and don't know it. Some, I dare to say a lot, of Christians as well.
The evil one is so very, very, very subtle.

If we renew our minds with the Living Word...He will reveal Himself to us more and more as our faith will allow!

Hebrews 11:6
"6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Satan can ask all the questions he want's to and can condemn us every day, because, we already have an answer for him, just point to the cross.

If I haven't, then I do! I do! But what are we to do, then, with such opposing ideas? How do you resolve that?

Hello David!
This is quite the controversial subject. I think it scares many people away from God. It scares me that it IS true rather than not. The "I" in the Calvinists "doctrine" would have disqualified me for God's love and salvation as, they call it "Irresistible Grace".
As they describe this one, one is "compelled" or, almost "pushed" into chasing after God. For myself, it was kicking and screaming so, maybe I was not chosen? What does one do in that case? Just go on with their empty sad lost lives KNOWING they will be going to hell? This is exactly what happens. It did to me in the 90's and once again about 5 years back.
It has gotten to the point where I personally don't give a flip anymore. Either one is saved or their not. Why bother seeking a God who would PURPOSELY create some specifically for Hell to, as they say, "show His glorious wrath"? God is who He is and there is not a thing we can do to make Him love "some" when He does not as, He hated Esau so, why not hate me too? I don't like me very much at all, so why would He even "like" much less love me?
I must say that this doctrine truly does steal the joy of ones salvation, I know because I did walk away, honestly believing I was just some nice kindling for hell so, why bother seeking a God who hates me??
There are good arguments on both sides, and that is what scares me. I have many in my own family, cousins, nieces, nephews, friends...who have yet to be saved. They are Catholic but do not practice any kind of faith that I can see. Why evangelize, why pray for our loved ones to come to Jesus? If it's all said and done, all the prayer in the world will not change the fact that God did not choose them.
It just sounds the opposite of "Good News" to me bro.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

If we don't have freewill, then God has no right to hold us accountable for rejecting Christ.

If we have no freewill, then when God tells us to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, ...... this would be an ignorant thing to ask us to do.

If we have no freewill, then Jesus is self-deceived when He tells us that if we don't believe in Him, we will die in our sins.

If we have no freewill then the world "believe" isn't possible, so, there goes the Gospel of the Grace of God that is offered to all who will believe it and be born again.

If we have no Freewill, then John 3:16 is the Devil's lie.

If we have no free will, then God is a lying psychopath, a cosmic tyrant, , who puts people into Revelation 20:11, based on damning them for Rejecting Christ with their free will that isn't there.

If we have no free will, then the Lambs book of life is filled with a lot of lying believers who are all born again by believing the Gospel and given the New Birth.

I hear everything you're saying. I really do. In fact, what you've well-written above, I held those beliefs too. I get it; I totally get it and don't blame you. However, once I discovered the Doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, the ENTIRE Bible changed within an instant . . . and didn't realize it until I re-read the Scriptures that I've read hundreds of times before. All of a sudden, Genesis chapter 17 began the process of tying in physical circumcision with Spiritual Circumcision. So . . . as you read a bit of that story below, ask yourself this question: "Is God asking Abraham to be blameless and live Righteously? Or, is our Powerful God Instilling that life [into] Abraham? Is this God asking Abraham to do these things or is this a description of God willing Him to obey and live that specific life?

Genesis 17:1-5 NKJV - "When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I [am] Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 "And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations."

This Scripture reflects a changed life for both Abraham and Sarah, as was the case for Paul as he was Transformed from Saul. So as Spiritual Circumcision became alive to me, and realizing that it is the Core of the Bible . . . my perspective of the entire followed its natural course. And I am so thankful that my ears were open!

So my point is, is that when our Powerful God enables our Hearts, or, lifts the Sin Nature from affecting our lives, we enabled to do good deeds. This is not a Work of our own, but this is an enabling Gift, fully empowered by the Holy Spirit, lest we had the chance to boast. But no, these Gifts that I speak of are not sourced from this physical world. These empowering Gifts are sourced from a place outside of this universe, for they are Spiritual and not worldly. To share in the Divine Nature is what it means to live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life. And as I now say more and more . . . here is the text for you to further judge the Lord's Word for yourselves . . .

2 Peter 1:4 KJV - "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Romans 8:2 KJV - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

It is amazing to be able to testify what this process feels like. Anyone who has Truly Transformed, should be able to testify what it feels like to go from having a sinful mind, the Mind of the Devil, compared to being Transformed into one who possesses a Divine Nature. When a person Nature is transformed from Sinful to Divine . . . folks . . . you won't be able to miss it. In fact, you won't believe what has begun in your Heart, which is that all of a sudden, you begin to think all things anew . . . and it never stops. Year after year your yearning for more . . . it never fades. In fact, the desire within, caused by the Holy Spirit, is so strong, that you may well find yourself to be completely alone and without anyone from your past. Your total devotion to the Name of Jesus alone may bring you to the point of being nothing in this world . . . and it will be worth it in your Heart, soul, and mind. There will be no regrets, for the Truth has implanted itself within you . . . and that is a Holy Light that cannot be hidden by any object.

When we begin to grasp the Doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, Circumcision of the Heart, we will realize that we, this whole time, we're supposed to have awakened, meaning that we were supposed to have radically changed in our thinking habits, followed by our personal habits. We are then confronted with this problem: "Have I really changed? Am I really a different person? How can I be . . . if I am still doing the same things I was doing before. And to be honest; I'm worse now than I was when I was baptized."

Any person who has encountered Christ and has received His Holy Operation of Faith, they can testify of this dramatic and most permanent change that has taken place. This is called a Romans 12:2 Transformation story. If we do not possess one of these stories . . . we need to get one asap.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

So, in both cases, you can be under the dominion. of one of those..
Now notice this carefully...= "the power of sin, is THE Law".""""
See that?
Now notice this. "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the LAW.
And what is the curse?
It's the law's power to empower you to want to sin.
The means that the Law's dominion empowers you to sin. It causes it. It energizes your flesh to overpower your will to resist if you are born again, and if you are not, then you just sin and enjoy it.

I'm sorry my friend, but there are some serious misunderstandings taking place, here. You're a smart person . . . a good thinker for sure. And more, I wish I could sit and talk and listen and learn from you. I would get on to the Blueletterbible website and begin doing a basic search with these words together, and it won't be long before you see that you're taking things out of context. We can't do that. I don't have the time, right now, to pull together the verses. But I am confident that with the Blueletterbible search engine, you'll see what I mean.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"
I have no idea of what you've written above actually means. It hasn't anything to do with anything I've written. You may think it does . . . but it doesn't.

Yet you stated this
QUOTE]

Okie Doke. I'm glad that my God didn't give me that choice because anyone with the Sin Nature cannot please God.

I can only go off what you did. But hey if you can. It answer I am good. I am used to that

"Same can be said of you my friend, you are judging others quite harshly"

Again, I have no idea of what you're talking about. If you're feeling judged; I'd stop right away. I haven't a clue as to who you are, nor anyone else, here. People type words and I read them, but until I see a person's life in action, I don't really know who they are. I judge no one's Heart . . . however, I do judge what people say and do.

I have nit judged anyone. I have just stated what I have seen from you in this chatroom

 

[Nancy]

He did not give Big Chief Sitting Bull the same choice.

You have to explain what virtue, what good thing there is dwelling in you. that is dwelling in your flesh, that enabled you to make the good choice where as others who have as much opportunity and hear the same gospel do not choose. Are you better than they are? is that why you chose to recieve Christ?

The common perception among unbelievers is that christians think they are better than others.

Hi Billy,
I'm wondering why you keep bringing up Chief Sitting Bull...lol. I lived among the Black Hills in South Dakota for 4 years and, I know he organized the Sioux tribe in the 1800's. Just curious why you would say that SB did not have a choice?
And yes...you are correct, it is a common belief among un believers but...I also think that is used as an excuse to stay away from Church, and anything "God".

 

[Renniks]

If I haven't, then I do! I do! But what are we to do, then, with such opposing ideas? How do you resolve that?

I don't find opposing ideas. I find opposing interpretations. I wonder if most of this has to do with how a first-century Christain would read the verses as opposed to an American. We are hyper-individualistic people. They were not. When the Bible says we are predestined to do good works, for example, the modern-day person might read that as being some sort of deterministic framework where some are chosen for salvation and some are not. The first-century Jew might read that as it's written. "We", being all believers, are enabled to do good works because God chose that for us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He did not give Big Chief Sitting Bull the same choice.

You have to explain what virtue, what good thing there is dwelling in you. that is dwelling in your flesh, that enabled you to make the good choice where as others who have as much opportunity and hear the same gospel do not choose. Are you better than they are? is that why you chose to recieve Christ?

The common perception among unbelievers is that christians think they are better than others.

Romans 1 says he gave chief every opportunity

I tend to trust God

god gave me no special ability or virtue to do anything. That’s why like the tax collector I became poor (bankrupt) in spirit and called out to God for mercy

if I thought I had virtue I would not have done this. I would have just said a sinners prayer with no repentance

and ps

I think I am in the same boat of all creation. Guilty as charged God offered us all salvation non of us are better

you on the other hand think God chose you and not your neighbor. That makes you think your special And better

you should think before you say things. Sometimes they come back to you

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Unbelievers are actually programmed, really.

That is True . . . we all were . . . unless lifted of the Curse from birth, such as is the case of several throughout the Bible. It is the Curse that reprogrammed the minds of Adam and Eve. The "First Book of Adam and Eve" is very difficult to read, as it allegedly reports how they felt after they had sinned. They had changed . . . their minds were not the same. They felt as though infected by ugly thoughts they hadn't ever had. They wanted to die because of this new "darkness" that had overtaken them. They hated it! They wept constantly, grieving constantly, even throwing themselves over cliffs because they couldn't live with this change of how they felt. Not only did Adam and Eve grieve over the change within themselves, but they experienced the grief of holding responsibility for the decay of the entire world. No longer did the animals come to them in trust. No longer was life on earth peaceful, but instead became violent and filled consumption and death. All of the earth was reprogrammed into decay. The thoughts of life became decayed, and so the mind of man quicked stooped to the murder of Abel. Just like that . . . within the span of moments, the thoughts and ideas of Adam and Eve were instantly reprogrammed. They changed . . . and by gosh, it is only Christ who can change us back! This is the point and purpose of the Entire Bible, which is to ensure that all that the Father has Given to Jesus, will hear His voice and come to Him, and that He will not lose one. This is a Powerful, Powerful story of assured Love for God's Holy Children. For He Loves us so much, that He will do all of the Work, and Provide us with Holy Power to endure all things so as to Inherit the Promised Holy Land that is only found in Heaven.

I am so, so thankful that the Lord has reprogrammed my mind, otherwise, I would still be sexually out of control. I haven't even had a date in three years, now. I'd still be a drunk. I'd still be confused. I'd still be filled with hatred. In fact, my mind is almost completely renewed. I have flaws that are being addressed by God (in a most painful way, though apparently necessary, thus am thankful!), but there is no doubt that I am no longer a caterpillar. I have changed, and the world is so much better off because of it. I was horrible. But I found forgiveness towards myself when Paul helped me realize that as I lived my old life, the sin that was coming [out] of me, was the sin that was being placed [into] me by Satan. Twice, Paul said, "It isn't me that is doing the sin, but sin (the Sinful Nature) within me." "It isn't I who do it, but sin that lives within me." - Combining this teaching in Romans 7 is what caused me to understand that our Hearts must be Circumcised Spiritually by Christ so that there will be no more Spiritual guidance from the Devil. Once the Devil's Nature has been stripped, we can then focus on a better life, and work on eliminating the worldly things that we still might love and enjoy today, though we know they are fully wrong.

Have a great day!!