"I am a sinner saved by grace" vs. "I am made righteous through the blood of Christ."

[Amazed@grace]

The passage in question teaches that we still have indwelling sin, but have been delivered from the committing of it in the practical sense.

I disagree.
When we are saved, come into salvation, our sinful nature is crucified and buried with Christ.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6 - New American Standard Bible

 

[justbyfaith]

I disagree.
When we are saved, come into salvation, our sinful nature is crucified and buried with Christ.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6 - New American Standard Bible

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

It may be that it is true of us that we have no sin; but if we say it there is something integrally wrong with our understanding and doctrine (see Job 9:21 (kjv), Isaiah 42:19 (kjv), John 9:41 (kjv))..

For we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

 

[Amazed@grace]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

It may be that it is true of us that we have no sin; but if we say it there is something integrally wrong with our understanding and doctrine (see Job 9:21 (kjv), Isaiah 42:19 (kjv), John 9:41 (kjv))..

For we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

And it is true, when the apostles delivered the gospel, those who may have thought they did not need to repent would be wrong.

Which is what 1 John 1:8 is concerned with. Because if those who are redeemed in Christ are still sinners then they are redeemed not at all.
The sin nature was crucified and buried with Christ.
This is part of the ritual cleansing through baptism.
Our "old man", "old woman", goes down in water. Buried with Christ. And when was rise up, we are reborn, born again, washed clean of our sins.

Colossians 2:11: In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh (old sinful nature), by the circumcision of Christ. (NKJV)

Colossians 2:11
When we were born from water with a worldly flesh nature, we are now born again from the waters that wash us and give us a new nature.

 

[Paul Christensen]

It would help if you gave a synopses of both alleged positions.

As far as I am concerned the difference is merely that of a different emphasis on words.

I don't see them as two separate positions. What we need to do is to see what the Bible actually says about being saved by grace.
"For by grace we are saved through faith, not of ourselves; it is the gift of God'; not of works lest any should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
We are saved by grace, but it is through our faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross and the free gift of Christ's righteousness.
"He was made sin for us, that we may become the righteousness of God in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

God's grace is only extended toward those who have put their faith in what Christ did for them on the Cross; in other words, grace is inseparately linked with Christ. There is no grace for anyone outside of Christ.

Also, being saved by grace does not mean that one can freely go on sinning. John Calvin said that there were those in his time who were viciously slandering him by accusing him of teaching that being saved by grace is a licence to freely and wilfully sin.

Therefore, my position is that God's grace and the free gift of the righteousness of Christ are inseparately linked and one cannot have a position on one and not the other. There is no grace without the righteousness of Christ. It's like having a motor car without an engine.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I am Saved because I have a Super Memory and I will be able to Repent Of All Of my Sins Before i die......as we all know, “ Lucky Repentance” is the recipe for Salvation....I learned that Recipe in these Forums— not the Bible...

Seriously?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Since both statements are true at one and the same time, there is no need for any debate. And if you think you are not a sinner saved by grace, you already have a problem. Paul called himself "the chiefest of sinners", yet he was head and shoulders above all others at that time.

Charles Spurgeon was head and shoulders above all others in his time and he said: "I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all; but Jesus Christ is my all in all."

D Martyn Lloyd-Jones is one of our greatest theologians and Bible teachers, and he said: "There is no such person as a good Christian. We are all vile people saved by grace."

I'd be arrogant if I thought I was good enough not to take close notice of what these very godly men said.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Seriously?

No, I don't think they're serious.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Charles Spurgeon was head and shoulders above all others in his time and he said: "I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all; but Jesus Christ is my all in all."

D Martyn Lloyd-Jones is one of our greatest theologians and Bible teachers, and he said: "There is no such person as a good Christian. We are all vile people saved by grace."

I'd be arrogant if I thought I was good enough not to take close notice of what these very godly men said.

Charles Spurgeon was a Calvinist.

I believe what leads us to peace is focusing on what God said.

 

[Addy]

So, are you trying to say that righteousness is not a practical thing?

Read Post #3... LOL

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Seriously?

Of course not....it’s the actual Doctrine Of some in here, though....they seldom are up- front about it....I don’t think they are as secure about it these days like they used to be....Truth might be seeping in ......they have been exposed to it by myself and others.....

 

[PeterJames0510]

While the posting got off to a slow start and the OP wasn't as clear as I would have wanted it to be, I would agree that our position in the New Testament as born again believers *is* saint ... and *not* sinner.

When we look in the NT, time and time again the Apostle Paul constantly identifies believers as saints (holy ones), see for instance the beginning of his epistles like: 1 Cor 1:2, Ephesians 1:1, or Colossians 1:2.

But the same can't be said of the word 'sinner'. We're talking dozens and dozens of times the NT refers to believers as Holy Ones, and in comparison only a little bit of time Christians are identified as a 'sinner'. There is one time a Christian is called a sinner in James 4:8; the context seems to indicate hypocritical believers are being addressed and not meant to identify everyone. The famous Romans 7 passage describing Paul could be a reflection on his past life and not of his current disposition at the time of his writing it.

The practical application is that there are many defeated Christians who say, "I'm just a sinner saved by grace". They say this over and over again like a mantra; and of course, if this is what you believe - how will you *act*?

This does *not* mean Saints are perfect; they are not. They can still sin while in this mortal body; we also can get overly prideful on our sainthood, but that usually happens when we think we made ourselves saints which is not the case. Only God did this at salvation.

I am aware of the confessional Lutheran position which is that we are both saint and sinner simultaneously.

I will go so far as to say we should never forget from whence we came (sinful darkness); but we should also not forget where we are headed (merciful holiness). One who is attempting to finish a strong race cannot expect progress if they keep trying to go back to the "old man".

 

[amadeus]

Does being cleansed of sin not mean that we are set free from the doing of sin in our lives?

Does it? Is it not comparable to going to work and getting dirty on the job? Then we come home and bathe to start out clean tomorrow. Will we get dirty on the job tomorrow?

 

[Wrangler]

I disagree.
When we are saved, come into salvation, our sinful nature is crucified and buried with Christ.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6 - New American Standard Bible

So, you don’t consider sanctification an ongoing process?

Regarding Romans 6:6, not being a slave to sin does not mean we don’t retain the capability and even habit of sinning.

I parse the 2 this way. Salvation is facing your maker. Sanctification is walking closer and closer to him.

 

[MatthewG]

Interesting thoughts.

 

[Amazed@grace]

So, you don’t consider sanctification an ongoing process?

Regarding Romans 6:6, not being a slave to sin does not mean we don’t retain the capability and even habit of sinning.

I parse the 2 this way. Salvation is facing your maker. Sanctification is walking closer and closer to him.

Acts 13
Particularly verse 39.

 

[justbyfaith]

Read Post #3... LOL

My question was in response to post #3. And post #3 is unclear as to the answer.

Does it? Is it not comparable to going to work and getting dirty on the job? Then we come home and bathe to start out clean tomorrow. Will we get dirty on the job tomorrow?

That would be referring to forgiveness not cleansing.

If you are cleansed then the sin that you are cleansed from doesn't any longer have any say over your behaviour.

 

[amadeus]

My question was in response to post #3. And post #3 is unclear as to the answer.



That would be referring to forgiveness not cleansing.

If you are cleansed then the sin that you are cleansed from doesn't any longer have any say over your behaviour.

How clean were Adam and Eve in the garden before they disobeyed God? How many of us now are always as clean or cleaner than they were before they sinned that first time? Being born again gives us an opportunity to improve on even what Adam and Eve were, but are we not still being tested to see how well we used what God has provided?

Mt 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strowed:
Mt 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mt 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strowed:
Mt 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mt 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mt 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mt 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.