I believe that gay people have as much of a "choice" to be gay as you do to not sin

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Patrick1966

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And the fact is that we are ALL slaves to sin.

John 8: 34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed".

The fact is that we live in an evil world and are afflicted with the condition known as "sin" and we are INCAPABLE of not sinning.

1 John 5:19 esv
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Romans 7:18 esv
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

My belief is that demonic and Satanic oppression is what pushes or compels us to engage in sin and, for some, that means engaging in homosexual behavior, for others it might mean getting drunk every night. It's all sin!

Ephesians 6:12 esv
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We are responsible for our sins, but only to a point because ultimately, we cannot help but sin. We must try to resist sin, of course, but God has forgiven us for our sin as evidenced by the sacrifice of Jesus for ALL of mankind.

So, when people tell you that gay people have a "choice" to NOT be gay, that's not exactly true. Again, they have as much "choice" to not be gay as the critic does to not engage in sin.
 

Bob Estey

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And the fact is that we are ALL slaves to sin.

John 8: 34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed".

The fact is that we live in an evil world and are afflicted with the condition known as "sin" and we are INCAPABLE of not sinning.

1 John 5:19 esv
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Romans 7:18 esv
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

My belief is that demonic and Satanic oppression is what pushes or compels us to engage in sin and, for some, that means engaging in homosexual behavior, for others it might mean getting drunk every night. It's all sin!

Ephesians 6:12 esv
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We are responsible for our sins, but only to a point because ultimately, we cannot help but sin. We must try to resist sin, of course, but God has forgiven us for our sin as evidenced by the sacrifice of Jesus for ALL of mankind.

So, when people tell you that gay people have a "choice" to NOT be gay, that's not exactly true. Again, they have as much "choice" to not be gay as the critic does to not engage in sin.
Either we try not to sin, or we don't. Which group do you think is better off?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I understand and I think many will agree that people have freedom of choice. People have the right to choose in the belief that there is no God. That doesn't mean I'm going to agree that there is no God just because a person has the right to believe and exercise the right to believe that there is no God.
 

Patrick1966

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Either we try not to sin, or we don't. Which group do you think is better off?
We're obviously better by walking the narrow path prescribed by Christ. With that said, there isn't a single person in the world right now that lives a sin-free life. We ALL "miss the mark". As well, it's one thing to gleefully live in sin and it's another to remorsefully struggle with sin. I believe there is a difference.
 

Chadrho

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And the fact is that we are ALL slaves to sin.

John 8: 34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed".

The fact is that we live in an evil world and are afflicted with the condition known as "sin" and we are INCAPABLE of not sinning.

1 John 5:19 esv
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Romans 7:18 esv
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

My belief is that demonic and Satanic oppression is what pushes or compels us to engage in sin and, for some, that means engaging in homosexual behavior, for others it might mean getting drunk every night. It's all sin!

Ephesians 6:12 esv
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We are responsible for our sins, but only to a point because ultimately, we cannot help but sin. We must try to resist sin, of course, but God has forgiven us for our sin as evidenced by the sacrifice of Jesus for ALL of mankind.

So, when people tell you that gay people have a "choice" to NOT be gay, that's not exactly true. Again, they have as much "choice" to not be gay as the critic does to not engage in sin.

I think this is a helpful point. Sin is a power we are under from which we cannot be freed short of grace. And even then, we still can struggle.

For my own part, I do not believe someone who is gay can simply choose to not be gay. It would be like me choosing to not be heterosexual. That's just not going to happen. I couldn't choose to be gay even if I wanted to. I imagine the same holds for those who are gay.
 
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Patrick1966

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I think many will agree that people have freedom of choice.
I think most people believe that we all have total free will, but I know that's not true. We have limited free will. Nobody has the will to reject God forever. Eventually, God will remove the timbers from their eyes and the dross from their hearts and then they will enthusiastically go to God!
 

Patrick1966

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I think this is a helpful point. Sin is a power we are under from which we cannot be freed short of grace. And even then, we still can struggle.

For my own part, I do not believe someone who is gay can simply choose to not be gay. It would be like me choosing to not be heterosexual. That's just not going to happen. I couldn't choose to be gay even if I wanted to. I imagine the same holds for those who are gay.

Well said. As we know that our struggle is with dark spiritual forces, it's my belief that homosexuals are under severe demonic oppression.

There are heterosexual men that go to prison and then CHOOSE to engage in homosexual relations with other men. That is a sin and, in my view, more egregious than someone who is simply "naturally" homosexual.
 

Charlie24

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And the fact is that we are ALL slaves to sin.

John 8: 34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed".

The fact is that we live in an evil world and are afflicted with the condition known as "sin" and we are INCAPABLE of not sinning.

1 John 5:19 esv
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Romans 7:18 esv
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

My belief is that demonic and Satanic oppression is what pushes or compels us to engage in sin and, for some, that means engaging in homosexual behavior, for others it might mean getting drunk every night. It's all sin!

Ephesians 6:12 esv
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We are responsible for our sins, but only to a point because ultimately, we cannot help but sin. We must try to resist sin, of course, but God has forgiven us for our sin as evidenced by the sacrifice of Jesus for ALL of mankind.

So, when people tell you that gay people have a "choice" to NOT be gay, that's not exactly true. Again, they have as much "choice" to not be gay as the critic does to not engage in sin.

There are levels of sin, Christ made this known when He said, "he who has delivered me has the greater sin." There are some of these "greater sins" that God calls "an abomination." Homosexuality is an abomination to God! Paul calls it a crime against nature.

Through the fall of man, he has a propensity to sin. The homosexual is one of these propensities. It's true that some are born with this particular fault. But they have no excuse, Christ has promised deliverance from all habits sin, no matter what that sin may be.

The majority of homosexuals shake their fist in the face of God with pride. Does that word "pride" ring a bell with the homosexuals?

Of course they have the God-given right to choose that lifestyle. But God has the right to punish it!
 
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strepho

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I'm not judging anyone. God is the judge. If someone robs a bank, and ends up in prison. How easy is it to blame satan. How about accountability. Let's quickly look at tax collector ZACCHAEUS. Luke 19:2. And behold, there was a man named ZACCAEUS, which the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. Did this publican obtain wealth by honest means??. How good old boy is he. 19:8. And ZACCAEUS stood ,and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my GOODS. I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. Let's be honest. This publican lied and cheated people. ZACCAEUS is confronted with choice here. He can take accountability for his actions. Or blame the devil or point fingers at someone else. Did ZACCAEUS step up to the plate?? 19:9. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house. For so much as he is a son of abraham. 19:10. For the son of man is come to seek and to save that which is lost. ZACCAEUS knew he would end up in sheol, if he didn't face reality and take accountability for his actions. He repented and took responsibility for his actions. He didn't blame anyone else or point fingers. It's a individual choice people make. No, satan didn't make the person do it. ZACCAEUS is a example of taking accountability and to conform to God's standard. He put away his habitual lifestyle of sin.
 

Patrick1966

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I'm not judging anyone. God is the judge. If someone robs a bank, and ends up in prison. How easy is it to blame satan. How about accountability. Let's quickly look at tax collector ZACCHAEUS. Luke 19:2. And behold, there was a man named ZACCAEUS, which the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. Did this publican obtain wealth by honest means??. How good old boy is he. 19:8. And ZACCAEUS stood ,and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my GOODS. I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. Let's be honest. This publican lied and cheated people. ZACCAEUS is confronted with choice here. He can take accountability for his actions. Or blame the devil or point fingers at someone else. Did ZACCAEUS step up to the plate?? 19:9. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house. For so much as he is a son of abraham. 19:10. For the son of man is come to seek and to save that which is lost. ZACCAEUS knew he would end up in sheol, if he didn't face reality and take accountability for his actions. He repented and took responsibility for his actions. He didn't blame anyone else or point fingers. It's a individual choice people make. No, satan didn't make the person do it. ZACCAEUS is a example of taking accountability and to conform to God's standard. He put away his habitual lifestyle of sin.

We have a limited choice to NOT sin. We can say "no" to some sins, but not all of them, unfortunately. As Jesus said, anyone who sins is a slave to sin and we are ALL sinners and are, therefore, "slaves" to sin.

We must do our best to avoid sin and to LOVINGLY advise our brothers and sisters when they "miss the mark", but some of us take it to another level and pronounce judgment and that too is a sin.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
 

Patrick1966

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There are levels of sin, Christ made this known when He said, "he who has delivered me has the greater sin." There are some of these "greater sins" that God calls "an abomination." Homosexuality is an abomination to God! Paul calls it a crime against nature.

Through the fall of man, he has a propensity to sin. The homosexual is one of these propensities. It's true that some are born with this particular fault. But they have no excuse, Christ has promised deliverance from all habits sin, no matter what that sin may be.

The majority of homosexuals shake their fist in the face of God with pride. Does that word "pride" ring a bell with the homosexuals?

Of course they have the God-given right to choose that lifestyle. But God has the right to punish it!

Yes, I agree with you that there are differing levels of sin. I also believe there are different levels of reward in Heaven as well as different levels of correction in the Lake of Fire. A person who is genuinely gay is probably no more a sinner than you or I and perhaps even less of a sinner, at least in my case. :)
 

Charlie24

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Yes, I agree with you that there are differing levels of sin. I also believe there are different levels of reward in Heaven as well as different levels of correction in the Lake of Fire. A person who is genuinely gay is probably no more a sinner than you or I and perhaps even less of a sinner, at least in my case. :)

I agree that they are no more a sinner than myself. Before I came to Christ I also had a pride in my sins.

The point I would like to make is that none of us have an excuse, God has provided a way of deliverance for whatever ails mankind.

We have to be willing, trust and believe Him to receive it.
 
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Patrick1966

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The point I would like to make is that none of us have an excuse...
My brother, I have to respectfully disagree that none of us have an excuse. The truth is that, none of us have a chance without Jesus and God knew this. You, me, and BILLIONS of others were born with the affliction of sin and we are INCAPABLE of NOT being sinful. As Jesus implied, we are ALL "slaves to sin".

John 8:34 esv
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."

Hebrews 1:3 esv
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

My brother, God is a refiner. Our experience here on Earth is about learning and about being refined in order to live with God in his kingdom on the new Earth. I wrote and shared the following with others but I'll copy and share it here too.




God is a REFINER and NOT a destroyer!

Some of the Bible uses analogies and symbolism to convey messages. As we say nowadays, a picture is worth a thousand words. Well, I think many authors of the scriptures tried to paint pictures to the readers. In a number of verses God is compared to a “refiner”. The authors use terms that people of that era might understand and relate with a metallurgist, for example. The Bible talks a lot about “fire” but I believe that a lot of it is symbolism and NOT literal fire. Anyhow, I believe the following verses will demonstrate how God is like a refiner or a metallurgist. Why is this relevant? Because God wants to fix, purify, and mold us into becoming like Christ. He doesn’t throw his creation, made in his image (no less), into a literal fire to be tortured forever. Now, he might throw us into a “Lake of Fire” that is more like a crucible or a cauldron but it’s for the purpose of refining us and removing our impurities, just like a goldsmith might do and that’s where terms such as “sulfur” and “brimstone” come into play in the Bible. Those compounds are used for purifying. Why would God need sulfur and brimstone if the purpose was simply for us to burn forever? You might use those agents if you were trying to purify gold but you wouldn’t need them if you were burning, for example, garbage. So, the next set of verses from the Bible speak about refining and purification because God IS a refiner and NOT a destroyer!



Verses that relate to refining, purification, etc:



Malachi 3:2-3 esv

But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.



1 John 3:3 esv

And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.



Mark 9:49

For everyone will be salted with fire.



Hebrews 1:3 ESV

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,



Zechariah 13:9

And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”



1 Peter 1:7 esv

So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.



Isaiah 1:25 esv

I will turn my hand against you and will smelt away your dross as with lye and remove all your alloy



(Note: Here is a definition of “dross”)​

noun

ˈdräs

ˈdrȯs

Synonyms of dross

1

metallurgy : the scum or unwanted material that forms on the surface of molten metal

2

: waste or foreign matter : IMPURITY

3

: something that is base (see BASE entry 3 sense 1), trivial, or inferior





Isaiah 48:10 esv

Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction



Psalm 66:10 esv

For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.

(Note: Psalms is attributed to have been written by King David, who lived about 1,000 years before Jesus).



Proverbs 17:3 esv

The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts.



Job 23:10 esv

But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.



Jeremiah 9:7 esv

Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: “Behold, I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do, because of my people?



Jeremiah 6:29 esv

The bellows blow fiercely; the lead is consumed by the fire; in vain the refining goes on, for the wicked are not removed.



Proverbs 25:4 esv

Take away the dross from the silver, and the smith has material for a vessel



Revelation 19:20 esv

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.



2 Corinthians 3:18 esv

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.



Revelation 20:10 esv

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



(Note: Here is Revelation 20:10 as translated by Young’s Literal Translation)

Revelation 20:10 YLT

And the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages



God works with us in ages. What Revelation 20:10 is saying, per my understanding, is that the beast and false prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for the duration of the remaining ages. Thereafter and for eternity, as the following verses will demonstrate, they too will join God so, no, their trip to the “Lake of Fire” is not forever.



Revelation 3:18 esv

I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.



1 Peter 5:10 esv

And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.



Titus 2:14 esv

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.



Ezekiel 22:18-22 esv

Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the Lord; I have poured out my wrath upon you.”

(Note: The Book of Ezekiel was written five or six hundred years before Christ appeared. Again, notice how various authors of scripture all say the same things. That is because of God!)



Psalm 12:6 esv

The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.



Revelation 14:10 esv

He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

(Note: I need to research this further but we frequently see the word “torment” a lot and I believe it’s meaning as used by the original authors has a different and restorative definition rather than the modern definition one will find in any dictionary.



There is probably more scripture along these lines, but I think this should more than suffice for the reader to understand and accept that God is a refiner, not a destroyer.
 
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Patrick1966

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We have to be willing, trust and believe Him to receive it.
In the end, ALL will be with God, regardless of what their "will" is right now.

God is all loving and all powerful. He didn't create man, in his own image no less, in order that they would be tormented FOREVER. That's a LIE started by the father of the lie in order to smear God and to run people against him. The Bible tells us that some will need a little dip :) into the Lake of Fire but, in the end, ALL will be with God!
 

Charlie24

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My brother, I have to respectfully disagree that none of us have an excuse. The truth is that, none of us have a chance without Jesus and God knew this. You, me, and BILLIONS of others were born with the affliction of sin and we are INCAPABLE of NOT being sinful. As Jesus implied, we are ALL "slaves to sin".

John 8:34 esv
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."

Hebrews 1:3 esv
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

My brother, God is a refiner. Our experience here on Earth is about learning and about being refined in order to live with God in his kingdom on the new Earth. I wrote and shared the following with others but I'll copy and share it here too.




God is a REFINER and NOT a destroyer!

Some of the Bible uses analogies and symbolism to convey messages. As we say nowadays, a picture is worth a thousand words. Well, I think many authors of the scriptures tried to paint pictures to the readers. In a number of verses God is compared to a “refiner”. The authors use terms that people of that era might understand and relate with a metallurgist, for example. The Bible talks a lot about “fire” but I believe that a lot of it is symbolism and NOT literal fire. Anyhow, I believe the following verses will demonstrate how God is like a refiner or a metallurgist. Why is this relevant? Because God wants to fix, purify, and mold us into becoming like Christ. He doesn’t throw his creation, made in his image (no less), into a literal fire to be tortured forever. Now, he might throw us into a “Lake of Fire” that is more like a crucible or a cauldron but it’s for the purpose of refining us and removing our impurities, just like a goldsmith might do and that’s where terms such as “sulfur” and “brimstone” come into play in the Bible. Those compounds are used for purifying. Why would God need sulfur and brimstone if the purpose was simply for us to burn forever? You might use those agents if you were trying to purify gold but you wouldn’t need them if you were burning, for example, garbage. So, the next set of verses from the Bible speak about refining and purification because God IS a refiner and NOT a destroyer!



Verses that relate to refining, purification, etc:



Malachi 3:2-3 esv

But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.



1 John 3:3 esv

And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.



Mark 9:49

For everyone will be salted with fire.



Hebrews 1:3 ESV

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,



Zechariah 13:9

And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”



1 Peter 1:7 esv

So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.



Isaiah 1:25 esv

I will turn my hand against you and will smelt away your dross as with lye and remove all your alloy



(Note: Here is a definition of “dross”)​

noun

ˈdräs

ˈdrȯs

Synonyms of dross

1

metallurgy : the scum or unwanted material that forms on the surface of molten metal

2

: waste or foreign matter : IMPURITY

3

: something that is base (see BASE entry 3 sense 1), trivial, or inferior





Isaiah 48:10 esv

Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction



Psalm 66:10 esv

For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.

(Note: Psalms is attributed to have been written by King David, who lived about 1,000 years before Jesus).



Proverbs 17:3 esv

The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts.



Job 23:10 esv

But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.



Jeremiah 9:7 esv

Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: “Behold, I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do, because of my people?



Jeremiah 6:29 esv

The bellows blow fiercely; the lead is consumed by the fire; in vain the refining goes on, for the wicked are not removed.



Proverbs 25:4 esv

Take away the dross from the silver, and the smith has material for a vessel



Revelation 19:20 esv

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.



2 Corinthians 3:18 esv

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.



Revelation 20:10 esv

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



(Note: Here is Revelation 20:10 as translated by Young’s Literal Translation)

Revelation 20:10 YLT

And the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages



God works with us in ages. What Revelation 20:10 is saying, per my understanding, is that the beast and false prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for the duration of the remaining ages. Thereafter and for eternity, as the following verses will demonstrate, they too will join God so, no, their trip to the “Lake of Fire” is not forever.



Revelation 3:18 esv

I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.



1 Peter 5:10 esv

And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.



Titus 2:14 esv

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.



Ezekiel 22:18-22 esv

Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the Lord; I have poured out my wrath upon you.”

(Note: The Book of Ezekiel was written five or six hundred years before Christ appeared. Again, notice how various authors of scripture all say the same things. That is because of God!)



Psalm 12:6 esv

The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.



Revelation 14:10 esv

He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

(Note: I need to research this further but we frequently see the word “torment” a lot and I believe it’s meaning as used by the original authors has a different and restorative definition rather than the modern definition one will find in any dictionary.



There is probably more scripture along these lines, but I think this should more than suffice for the reader to understand and accept that God is a refiner, not a destroyer.

My point is that none of us have an excuse to be found guilty before God. He has provided Grace through Faith in the finished work of Christ that we may be found righteous in His sight. Therefore, no man will stand before God with an excuse!
 

Charlie24

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In the end, ALL will be with God, regardless of what their "will" is right now.

God is all loving and all powerful. He didn't create man, in his own image no less, in order that they would be tormented FOREVER. That's a LIE started by the father of the lie in order to smear God and to run people against him. The Bible tells us that some will need a little dip :) into the Lake of Fire but, in the end, ALL will be with God!

Show me that in Scripture and I will join the UR right now! Don't show me the junk the UR puts out, show me plainly written in Scripture.
 
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Patrick1966

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Show me that in Scripture and I will join the UR right now! Don't show me the junk the UR puts out, show me plainly written in Scripture.
There are many. Here's one.

Ephesians 1:9-10
to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
 

Charlie24

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There are many. Here's one.

Ephesians 1:9-10
to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Oh yea, I can plainly see it! It says. "I will dip them in the flames and when I see fit, I will release them from the flames of the Lake."

Or does it say, He will gather together in the fulness of time those,

Vs. 7, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
 

Patrick1966

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Oh yea, I can plainly see it! It says. "I will dip them in the flames and when I see fit, I will release them from the flames of the Lake."

Or does it say, He will gather together in the fulness of time those,

Vs. 7, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
 

Patrick1966

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Oh yea, I can plainly see it! It says. "I will dip them in the flames and when I see fit, I will release them from the flames of the Lake."

Or does it say, He will gather together in the fulness of time those,

Vs. 7, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
Romans 11:32 esv
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
 
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