I believe that gay people have as much of a "choice" to be gay as you do to not sin

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Patrick1966

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Oh yea, I can plainly see it! It says. "I will dip them in the flames and when I see fit, I will release them from the flames of the Lake."

Or does it say, He will gather together in the fulness of time those,

Vs. 7, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
2 Samuel 14:14, ESV: We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.
 
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Charlie24

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1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

He is the Saviour of all men, in the sense that He is the only Saviour.

"especially of those who believe" is laying down the conditions of salvation.

If one interprets the this the way you do, then John 3:16 is not true.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Here, plainly man will perish (lose his soul) if he does not believe.

Don't go to the second chance for salvation thing! There is no second chance for salvation.

Heb. 9:27

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
 
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Charlie24

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Romans 11:32 esv
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Read the context, Patrick! Paul is speaking of both the Jew and the Gentile needing to be saved.

He is saying this because the Jews believed they were saved by being the seed of Abraham and being circumcised by this covenant God gave Abraham.
 

Patrick1966

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If one interprets the this the way you do, then John 3:16 is not true.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
The problem is the mistranslations that exist in most English versions. Here is the ACCURATE translation of John 3:16.

John 3:16

Young's Literal Translation

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
 

Patrick1966

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Don't go to the second chance for salvation thing! There is no second chance for salvation.
I don't know what that is supposed to mean. Where does it say that God is incapable of forgiving and saving people AFTER they have physically died?
 

Charlie24

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2 Samuel 14:14, ESV: We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

The problem is the mistranslations that exist in most English versions. Here is the ACCURATE translation of John 3:16.

John 3:16​

Young's Literal Translation​

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

We can go on with the Bible lessons all night! You are taking all of this out of context because the UR has to do this, they have not one single verse that all will be saved in the end!
 
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Patrick1966

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Read the context, Patrick! Paul is speaking of both the Jew and the Gentile needing to be saved.

He is saying this because the Jews believed they were saved by being the seed of Abraham and being circumcised by this covenant God gave Abraham.
In the end, ALL will be with God!

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself
 

Patrick1966

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We can go on with the Bible lessons all night! You are taking all of this out of context because the UR has to do this, they have not one single verse that all will be saved in the end!
Well, if it's true that God sends his creation to an eternity of torment, then the various verses that I have been sharing with you are all untrue.
 

Charlie24

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I don't know what that is supposed to mean. Where does it say that God is incapable of forgiving and saving people AFTER they have physically died?

God can do whatever He wants, but He has said all that will not meet the conditions of His salvation are cast into the Lake of Fire.

God operates by established Laws He has made, He abides by them and Satan has no choice but to abide by them.

No matter how much you wish or hope, God will abide by the Laws of the universe He has created.
 

Patrick1966

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@Charlie24 You and I were indoctrinated to believe that our loving father sends a portion of his creation to suffer horribly forever. I too used to believe that lie, which undoubtedly emanated from the father of the lie. The early church perverted scripture to serve their own purposes. I have no doubt that the church invented purgatory for financial gain because they could tell their followers that they can BUY their way out of purgatory/Hell while still on Earth. I used to believe that mainstream English bibles would somehow be protected by the Holy Spirit from lies, but I learned that is not the case.
 

Charlie24

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God can do whatever He wants, but He has said all that will not meet the conditions of His salvation are cast into the Lake of Fire.

God operates by established Laws He has made, He abides by them and Satan has no choice but to abide by them.

No matter how much you wish or hope, God will abide by the Laws of the universe He has created.

When you find the dipping in the Lake and the release in Scripture, let me know!
 
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thelord's_pearl

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God has a line where he measures things, it's just like how we measure what is right and what is wrong in law and so he says that man laying with man is wrong and so it is.
 

Patrick1966

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@Charlie24 Let me share another example of a garbage translation.

Jesus told us not to call any man "father".

Matthew 23:9 esv
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

The Catholic Church will tell you that Paul told his congregants that he was their father based on the following verse from the English Standard Version Bible.

1 Corinthians 4:15 esv
15 For though you have countless[a] guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Now let's look at 1 Corinthians 4:15 YLT and you'll see that it's different and that Paul didn't say that he was their "father" but that he "begat" them, in other words, he brought them to God.

15 for if a myriad of child-conductors ye may have in Christ, yet not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus, through the good news, I -- I did beget you;
 

ButterflyJones

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And the fact is that we are ALL slaves to sin.

John 8: 34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed".

The fact is that we live in an evil world and are afflicted with the condition known as "sin" and we are INCAPABLE of not sinning.

1 John 5:19 esv
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Romans 7:18 esv
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

My belief is that demonic and Satanic oppression is what pushes or compels us to engage in sin and, for some, that means engaging in homosexual behavior, for others it might mean getting drunk every night. It's all sin!

Ephesians 6:12 esv
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We are responsible for our sins, but only to a point because ultimately, we cannot help but sin. We must try to resist sin, of course, but God has forgiven us for our sin as evidenced by the sacrifice of Jesus for ALL of mankind.

So, when people tell you that gay people have a "choice" to NOT be gay, that's not exactly true. Again, they have as much "choice" to not be gay as the critic does to not engage in sin.
If that's true then conversely we have a choice to be straight.
 

Charlie24

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@Charlie24 You and I were indoctrinated to believe that our loving father sends a portion of his creation to suffer horribly forever. I too used to believe that lie, which undoubtedly emanated from the father of the lie. The early church perverted scripture to serve their own purposes. I have no doubt that the church invented purgatory for financial gain because they could tell their followers that they can BUY their way out of purgatory/Hell while still on Earth. I used to believe that mainstream English bibles would somehow be protected by the Holy Spirit from lies, but I learned that is not the case.

I see nothing wrong whatsoever in hoping God will change His mind, but there is no evidence of that found in Scripture.

What brings me to a boil is when the UR insists that He will when they have no evidence, and then they take the Word of God out of context to fit their narrative. This is wrong and It's leading the simple minded to believe this lie that they will receive mercy from God even though they did not repent.
 
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Patrick1966

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He is the Saviour of all men, in the sense that He is the only Saviour.
If Jesus doesn't actually save ALL men, then 1 Timothy 4:10 is untrue. It says ALL men. It doesn't say "some" men or "believers"; it says ALL men.

My brother, I'm not trying to win an argument with you. I'm trying to help you to see the truth and to understand that God is not a monster that sends his creation to an eternity of suffering.
 

Charlie24

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What does this mean?

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself

LOL, I just explained this one for Steven yesterday.

It speaks of Christ being lifted up on the Cross for the sins of mankind.

That is the Gospel, Jesus Christ dying for ours sins and raised on the 3rd day.

The draw is the Gospel being given by one man to another. When that Gospel is heard the Holy Spirit convicts man of his sin, that is the draw. But man has free will to choose whether he will accept that draw. Those who accept Christ will be saved, those who don't will remain unsaved.
 
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