I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man

[TonyChanYT]

The words are 100% clear in the bible and likewise I am 100% confident in what I stated is correct and consistent therewith. Read 1st Tim 3 and Titus for qualifications of elders/bishops/overseers. And it can be assumed that Paul always spoke the inspired word of God by commandment, and as aforementioned, stated clearly when he spoke by permission and not by commandment.

At this point, I am interested in the strength of your belief on this one.

Let proposition P1 = God does not want any woman to be a pastor today.
P2 = God allows some women to be pastors today.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

 

[DJT_47]

At this point, I am interested in the strength of your belief on this one.

Let proposition P1 = God does not want any woman to be a pastor today.
P2 = God allows some women to be pastors today.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

Is not 100%, as stated, a strong enough indication of my belief?

 

[laBonhomme]

I would normally just tell someone like you that you probably don't have a very good musical skill set, since your sort can't sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic, but you're from Canada and you don't know that song. Since you're Canadian and you can't sing Julia Ward Howe, what method do you use to announce the fact that you've had a spiritual vision yourself?

 

[RedFan]

Lexically, the Greek word itself is ambiguous. At Biblehub 51 out of 51 translations use "woman". None uses "wife".

I grant you that γυναικὶ can be translated either as “woman” or as “wife” – the proper meaning being a matter of the passage’s context. No one would doubt that γυναικὶ should be translated as “wife” in Matt. 19:5, or in 1 Cor. 7:3, 14, 27 and 33. So should it be here, according to Luther:

“Here we properly take ‘woman’ to mean ‘wife,’ as he reveals from his correlative phrase (v. 12) ‘to have authority over man,’ that is, over her husband. He calls the husband ‘man,’ so he calls the wife ‘woman.’ Where men and women have been joined together, there the men, not the women, ought to have authority. . . . He wants to save the order preserved by the world—that a man be the head of a woman, as 1 Corinthians 11:3 tells us.”

Martin Luther, Lectures on 1 Timothy, found in Luther’s Works, vol. 28, Hilton C. Oswald ed. (Concordia, 1973), 276–77.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Is not 100%, as stated, a strong enough indication of my belief?

This is the last time I ask. Please answer precisely.

Let proposition P1 = God does not want any woman to be a pastor today.
P2 = God allows some women to be pastors today.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I grant you that γυναικὶ can be translated either as “woman” or as “wife” – the proper meaning being a matter of the passage’s context. No one would doubt that γυναικὶ should be translated as “wife” in Matt. 19:5, or in 1 Cor. 7:3, 14, 27 and 33. So should it be here, according to Luther:

Let proposition P1 = The Greek word Γυνὴ in 1 Timothy 2:11 should be translated as "wife".
P2 = It should be translated as "woman".

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

 

[RedFan]

Let proposition P1 = The Greek word Γυνὴ in 1 Timothy 2:11 should be translated as "wife".
P2 = It should be translated as "woman".

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

I can't scale it with that much accuracy, but I'm pretty firmly in the "wife" camp for this one. Let's say 8.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I can't scale it with that much accuracy, but I'm pretty firmly in the "wife" camp for this one. Let's say 8.

Are you willing to bet on it based on your weights of 8 and 2?

 

[RedFan]

Are you willing to bet on it based on your weights of 8 and 2?

I'm not a betting man. But since we cannot interview Paul, there is no logical way to determine whether the bet is won or lost -- not today anyway. (Maybe some day I'll get to ask him!)

When I look at verses 8 through 14 together, I see that "silence" is not commanded upon women generally, since v. 9 speaks about how women should dress modestly, apparently while praying with men in public. A command that “women” should be silent a few verses later just makes little sense to me – but if it is “wives” being referred to a few verses later, then the entirety of the passage can be more easily saved from inconsistency. I prefer interpretations where the writer doesn’t contradict himself in the space of six verses!

If we conclude that Paul isn’t trying to silence women generally, as 1 Cor. 11:5 shows, discussing the women wearing a veil while prophesying, then logic suggests -- to me at least -- that wives and husbands are being referred to in verses 11 through 14.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I'm not a betting man.

This is not a lotto/gambling bet. This is a bet to mathematically and scientifically measure the strength of your belief. Put money where your mouth is.

 

[RedFan]

This is not a lotto/gambling bet. This is a bet to mathematically and scientifically measure the strength of your belief. Put money where your mouth is.

What is the point of such a "scientific" measure of strength? I believe what I believe for the reasons stated, and hold to that belief fairly strongly. Let's just leave it there.

 

[TonyChanYT]

What is the point of such a "scientific" measure of strength?

That's up to you if you do not want to put money where your mouth is. I don't gamble at all, but I bet on my words to scientifically demonstrate my belief's strength. Don't you want to determine how much you believe in your own words mathematically? See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability and betting

 

[RedFan]

That's up to you if you do not want to put money where your mouth is. I don't gamble at all, but I bet on my words to scientifically demonstrate my belief's strength. Don't you want to determine how much you believe in your own words mathematically? See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability and betting

Nope. I have no need to further quantify anything here. "Betting" on my words in some kind of thought experiment furthers no goal I strive toward. I am moving on.

 

[laBonhomme]

I probably shouldn't jump into this too quickly, but I always seem to end up sticking my nose in these really arid abstract discussions. The primary thing about being a pastor is that he has to have the ability to serve communion. Transubstantiation is the substance of the last supper, if you only know religion from reading a book or just don't believe in communion, look it up in the gospel record, it's part of the story of the wedding feast at Canna where Jesus turned water into wine. I suppose that not everybody, and in reality, not every denominational church, literally believes in the transmutation of bread and wine or water or grape juice into the spiritual body and blood of Christ, and at that, few denominations which do ever ordain women to practice the ceremony. In spite of the various religious orders rules, if there was a woman who could and did transubstantiate, there would be nothing you could do about it, and you might not be spiritual enough to know the difference anyway.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is the 3rd and last time I ask you: Do you have any scholarly references to support your claim other than your own reasoning and your own sense of right and wrong? I am looking for some external support other than your own self. Is that too much to ask of you? I am not asking you or anyone to depend only on scholars. I am asking you not to exclusively depend on your own self-logic if you are able to listen to me.

And this is the second time I am telling you that you are asking the wrong question. Why didn't you ask me how I came to my conclusions instead?

I chose not to cite scholars because my purpose here is to help others draw their own conclusions and use their own reasoning. I am offended that you think I am unable to read and understand the Bible myself. Who told you that you needed a scholar's approval? Who perverted your thinking and caused you to mistrust your own mind?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Lexically, the Greek word itself is ambiguous. At Biblehub 51 out of 51 translations use "woman". None uses "wife".

And so what's the Greek word for wife?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you willing to bet on it based on your weights of 8 and 2?

All the wrong questions again.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's up to you if you do not want to put money where your mouth is. I don't gamble at all, but I bet on my words to scientifically demonstrate my belief's strength. Don't you want to determine how much you believe in your own words mathematically? See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability and betting

No. We don't study the Bible with a calculator next to us. The Bible is written in ordinary human language so that the gospel's truth is accessible to all who can read.

 

[TonyChanYT]

"Betting" on my words in some kind of thought experiment

It is not a thought experiment. Did you read Subjective (Bayesian) Probability and betting?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is not a thought experiment. Did you read Subjective (Bayesian) Probability and betting?

It's bogus.