I don't want to be an Atheist

[stlizzy]

Here is a note to... anyone who is reading it: This is not meant to persuade you of a yes or no- because only God can change a heart- and it's only a heart that is willing to be changed. So, this is just something to think about...God is real- and He exists in and of Himself. That is to say, whether I believe in Him or not, or whether you believe in Him or not, does not change the fact of His existence or that Grace through Christs reconciles us with Him.But- often times we encounter people in our lives that seem to give God a bad name, they don't necessarily engender every kind aspect of the Bible that they are preaching- Does this mean that what they are preaching is false- or that they are proving that there is no way there they have a loving God living inside of them?NO. Here are a few points as to why:1. When a person begins to follow Christ- their human self is not automatically made perfect. Our sins are forgiven and our souls are made clean- they are acceptable to God because of Christ's sacrifice. But we still are humans that have a tendency to sin and we walk daily with Christ to be more like Him because through Him we are not slaves to sin. To say that we strive to be like Christ is to say that: we know that we, through ourselves, cannot be perfect, so everyday we must rely on Christ's character to help us change our own. - This is to make the point that people can be harsh and yell and scream about things- saying that a person "cannot" be a Christian if they are a certain denomination or something like that- well, there are some beliefs that go directly against scripture and are obvious, this is true, but what is most important is that God works with us individually and DIFFERENT paces- so that each of our lives reflects a personal experience- and so this means that no one grows at the same rate or at the same time. God reveals things to people, He shows sin deep within our lives just at the right time when we are ready to accept that we need to change it- when our hearts are open and we have matured enough to be able to do so, through the Grace of Christ.2. The Christian life is always moving forward- there's never a stagnant point- you're either moving forward or sliding back. But, through the power of God moving forward is a work of love and joy and you want to do it. -What I am saying here is that all Christians are growing every day- and sometimes the things they do don't reflect the perfect nature of Christ- but that we MUST understand- and this is so very crucial- we MUST understand that we are to rely on God and look to God for perfection- because people will let us down. I know this through experience because my family, who I thought was so moral and Christian, is letting me down in a tremendous way right now.... and I have found myself saying- well they don't reflect God's nature at all- so God must be at fault. But this is wrong thinking because we CANNOT blame God for the way people act. They have chosen to act that way, not God.3. God often works on a slow pace- WHY? Why does He do this? Because, He works outside of time, and because it's for OUR BENEFIT, not His. What this means is that often God allows us to learn slowly every day so that we can grow stronger in Him- because trust doesn't happen overnight, it takes time to cultivate it into a deep and powerful relationship. - So to think about how the Jews used to wonder why God did not send the Messiah sooner- God sent the Messiah just at the time when the world was ready to receive Him- not sooner or later. And He works with us, in our hearts and minds, just at the right time when we are ready to accept.4. God calls all people to Him- and if they choose not to answer the call it is their own choice- and they will answer for it. But, He is so patient to wait.- When it gets right down to it, no one can crawl into your head and make a yes or no happen- but they can really influence someone's perception of a Christian. But when you lie in bed at night- it is you and God alone, for we cannot even know the minds of our own children or spouses, and so we cannot answer for them. We can only answer for ourselves. We can be disgusted by the way they act- but that does NOT mean that we are free to reject God because of it.But what is a Christian? It is someone who believes and follow Christ's grace and sacrifice in their life. We know that: 1. there are many who claim to be Christians but are not, for Jesus Himself said, "Many will say to me, Lord, Lord, have I not prophesied in your Name?" And He will say, "I never knew You." WHY? Because in their heart they do not truly believe- to believe is to accept and to ACT on this acceptance. It is to openly allow your heart to God- to say to God that you recognize His authority, as Creator, and are willing to do His will in your life over your own. Many people don't do this in their hearts- though they profess to do it with their mouths. 2. Even Christians struggle! So, we cannot judge God by what people do- because God always remains faithful to His promises even though people do not.So, to whomever has read this entire post: I encourage you to keep searching for God, because He tells us that all who search will find Him. Bear in mind that God exists and engenders all aspects of Love, Kindness, Gentleness, Humbleness... all good things, and that when someone becomes a Christian it is because they are following GOD and GOD ALONE and not because they are following some human's teachings or a church, or a "obligatory way of life" (you don't have to be Amish to be a Christian- nothing against them, though. lol

) And so, we will see people let us down and get angry at them- but God will never let us down. On the contrary, it is often us who walk away from Him for many, many reasons.

 

[His By Grace]

Thanks for those words, stlizzy. They are filled with so many truths. Hi, Remagoen. I'm just now back, checking out what you posted from the other day to me. I really do appreciate your taking time to truly read every word that a writer writes to you. That is a considerate thing. Sometimes when people are debating or discussing things, one will be more interested in what he/she has to say than what the other person says. I think I may have judged you too quickly, thinking you were just looking for a one-sided argument, not really wanting to be convinced of what we believe to be true. I am beginning to believe otherwise. I know that I have called out your name to the Lord in prayer more than once this week and have asked the Lord to put your name into my heart and mind so that I wouldn't forget people that are searching for Him so diligently. I think about Pildit, Garbage Man, Ricky, and all of you that struggle so to believe in a great God that you can only see with eyes of faith. You know, I guess when you're raised up in a Christian home, it can make it so much easier to become a Christian. But, there still has to be that point in one's life when they decide for themselves that they are choosing to follow Christ because they want to; because they realize what He sacrificed for them and how much He loves them. I was worried about what you said about giving up, but then when I saw that you are reading Mere Christianity I was so encouraged! You may think I have empathy for people, and you know, to a certain degree you're right. I do think the Lord instilled within me the gift of compassion, a desire to help others, and an ability to feel others' pain. This is sometimes quite a burdensome thing, though. I surely don't think anything good would dwell within me without the Lord Jesus (see John 15:5 and Jeremiah 17:9). God has reminded me that He tenderly cares for me and all of the things I'm praying about. He can do that for you too. He isn't a respector of persons in that regard. Just this morning as I was reading about Jesus providing the loaves of bread and fish by multiplying the boy's lunch, His own words took on so much more meaning. He said, " Gather all of the fragments so that nothing is lost." I heard the Spirit whisper to me,"Even people who are in a fragmented life;I came to save them too. I want to bring them to myself. I hear you." You see, there is so much more than just the literal words on the pages of His Holy Word. He brings His Holy Breath and makes it alive as we read, seek, and ask for guidance. It's like peeling the layers of an onion. You can read for basic information; that's the outer layer. Then, you can look for some basic life application/historical proofs. That's another layer. Then, as you read it over and over again-even for years- He just keeps revealing truths of life and how He will be there to continue to provide your needs. It cannot be my imagination. I'm not smart enough to think this deeply into things. Anyway, just know that you're being thought of and prayed for. I'm glad you feel comfortable here.

I hope you have a very blessed Easter.

 

[stlizzy]

(His By Grace;41580)
Thanks for those words, stlizzy. They are filled with so many truths. Hi, Remagoen. I'm just now back, checking out what you posted from the other day to me. I really do appreciate your taking time to truly read every word that a writer writes to you. That is a considerate thing. Sometimes when people are debating or discussing things, one will be more interested in what he/she has to say than what the other person says. I think I may have judged you too quickly, thinking you were just looking for a one-sided argument, not really wanting to be convinced of what we believe to be true. I am beginning to believe otherwise. I know that I have called out your name to the Lord in prayer more than once this week and have asked the Lord to put your name into my heart and mind so that I wouldn't forget people that are searching for Him so diligently. I think about Pildit, Garbage Man, Ricky, and all of you that struggle so to believe in a great God that you can only see with eyes of faith. You know, I guess when you're raised up in a Christian home, it can make it so much easier to become a Christian. But, there still has to be that point in one's life when they decide for themselves that they are choosing to follow Christ because they want to; because they realize what He sacrificed for them and how much He loves them. I was worried about what you said about giving up, but then when I saw that you are reading Mere Christianity I was so encouraged! You may think I have empathy for people, and you know, to a certain degree you're right. I do think the Lord instilled within me the gift of compassion, a desire to help others, and an ability to feel others' pain. This is sometimes quite a burdensome thing, though. I surely don't think anything good would dwell within me without the Lord Jesus (see John 15:5 and Jeremiah 17:9). God has reminded me that He tenderly cares for me and all of the things I'm praying about. He can do that for you too. He isn't a respector of persons in that regard. Just this morning as I was reading about Jesus providing the loaves of bread and fish by multiplying the boy's lunch, His own words took on so much more meaning. He said, " Gather all of the fragments so that nothing is lost." I heard the Spirit whisper to me,"Even people who are in a fragmented life;I came to save them too. I want to bring them to myself. I hear you." You see, there is so much more than just the literal words on the pages of His Holy Word. He brings His Holy Breath and makes it alive as we read, seek, and ask for guidance. It's like peeling the layers of an onion. You can read for basic information; that's the outer layer. Then, you can look for some basic life application/historical proofs. That's another layer. Then, as you read it over and over again-even for years- He just keeps revealing truths of life and how He will be there to continue to provide your needs. It cannot be my imagination. I'm not smart enough to think this deeply into things. Anyway, just know that you're being thought of and prayed for. I'm glad you feel comfortable here.

I hope you have a very blessed Easter.
Good post. Reading the Bible is like peeling an onion, or sucking on an every-lasting gobstopper: you never hit the core because it's layer after layer. How wonderful...

 

[Rudy]

To stlizzy:I really appreciated your second post (to Remagoen on February 22)-- it was excellent, and I was very encouraged by it. To Remagoen:I agree with some of the others who have posted that it is a good thing that you are taking the first step to find God by asking questions; most people don't do that. I think for somone who is having a hard time with something big like this, the easiest thing is to take this one step at a time. Here are my thoughts... (Sorry if some of this might sound like a repeat, but I just wrote what I was thinking as I read the posts... I haven't finished reading them yet. Also, please note that this is LONG...Sorry!)What I am about to say may sound strange, but please don't get angry; I have no intention of insulting you, I'm just trying to be helpful. If you don't understand something, please ask questions before getting mad; I tried to make this as nice as possible... I'll warn you that I do mention the Bible a lot... please don't be offended (I didn't quote anything), but most of this is from the "spiritual" perspective. That said, please hear me out...First of all, come to God with a sincere heart and ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will make Himself real to you. Perhaps, ask Him for a sign. I know of a number of different people who asked God to show them a sign to confirm that He was there and that He loved them and God did it. He doesn't favor people; if He did it for them, He'll do it for you, too. God has placed it into the heart of man to know Him, so if you sincerely seek for Him, you will find Him; that's His reward to you, because He cares about YOU. He honors faith/trust because it proves to Him that you really are sincere; you're not just looking for answers so that you can turn around and mock Him. You said that you tried praying before but it felt weird -- Here are a couple things to think about: First, Prayer is simply talking to God, just like you would to a friend. You don't have to use any elaborate words like "Thees and Thous." Be yourself, but set aside all your feelings and just talk to Him from your heart. It can seem weird at first, but keep trying -- don't stop. Keep trying and trying and eventually, you will push past that feeling and it won't be an issue anymore. Sometimes it can feel like you're talking to the ceiling or the air, but God is right there listening to you. Be honest with God -- tell Him how you feel and ask Him to help you. Second, when we talk to a friend on the telephone, we have faith that it is indeed our friend even though we can't see him, because we hear him and we know him. So it is with God -- we can't see Him, but that's because no one could see God and live; He's that powerful. We CAN hear Him though, because as we get to know Him, He will speak to us, to the point where we will get to know His voice, just as we know the voice of a friend. When I say, "we can hear God," I'm not talking about an audible voice, although some people do hear God in an audible way. Most of the time, it's just a knowing in your heart that this is God. God can also speak to us through our thoughts. That's why it's important to know God so that we can tell when it is our own thought or His. It's all about building a relationship with God, just as you would your friend. Wouldn't your friend be angry if you didn't talk to him for weeks, months, or even years? It would certainly ruin your relationship. That's why we talk to God -- to develop our relationship and to keep it strong. (Sure we can tell Him what's going wrong or what we need, or whatever, but that is the primary reason we talk with God.)Third, if we want to call a friend on a cellphone and it doesn't get a connection, what do we do? We figure out what the problem is, fix it, and then we are able to call. If you are trying to talk to God, but just can't seem to "get a connection," come to God, believing that He exists, even if you don't know Who He is; that way, you can at least "get the connection"; That's what faith is -- it is believing even when you don't understand every aspect of something and you may not be able to see it. Fourth, it helps to remind yourself of why you are praying; for some people it can just become routine so that there is no life in it. (For example, if you're praying, because you want to know if there is a God, then keep reminding yourself of that to keep you going; if you don't quit, you will see results.) God wants us to know more than that He exists; He wants us to know that we can know Him.If faith is a stumbling block for you, think about this: We excercise faith every day -- sometimes even in things we can't see: A pilot has faith that the wind will lift his plan and give it flight; we expect our friends to trust us and we in turn trust them; we have faith that our chair will hold us up when we sit on it; we have faith that the weather report will be accurate, so we dress accordingly, etc. If we did not have faith in these things, we would not trust anyone, would check out the chair to make sure it was sturdy, and would disregard the weather when we dress.You said, "Faith is totally blind and I like seeing. If I can't see, touch, hear, smell, taste it, I have a hard time believing it. If I could sense God, even for a bit, in a way I know it's Him, I would kneel immediately and worship him." As for faith in God, it is not a "blind faith" as you have implied. There is no such thing as "blind faith." The Bible makes it clear that Christianity is not a blind faith. (I would quote the Bible to support this, but I'm honoring your request.) "The belief of an individual involves the mind, the emotions, and the will. The Holy Spirit does not work a blind and ungrounded faith in the heart." (F.R. Beattie) "Faith in Christianity is based on evidence; it is a reasonable faith. Faith in the Christian sense goes beyond reason but not against it." (Paul Littleton) You said, "God, on the other hand, has no ticket to travel to see him. You have to believe in him solely on faith, which you don't have to do with Japan. So the evidence is not circumstantial. If this argument was in court, the judge could easily say, 'Get me a ticket', travel there, and the proof is right under his feet, no longer circumstantial." That is not entirely true. The Bible is our ticket to knowing and experiencing God. The Bible is God's word to us; therefore, when we read it, we can know what God is saying to us and it will help us to know God better. Allow me to illustrate: Those of us alive today never met Abraham Lincoln and yet we believe that he existed. Why? Because we have letters from him, documents about him, statements about him from friends, etc. So it is with the Bible; it is God's letter to us telling us who He is and, and it has eyewitness testimony of God in the form of man (Jesus) on this earth [from His friends AND enemies]. Why do you think the Bible is evil? Is it a particular passage or is it what appears to be a contradiction? Please give me some examples. I ask because I think that maybe that is the problem -- the real issue; if we can pinpoint the source of your problem with the Bible, it can better help you to find the answers. (And, you know, the answers may not be what you were hoping for, but the truth is the truth regardless of what you or I think of it; any honest person will follow the evidence where it leads.) I think the Bible is one of the big proofs for God's existance, since it is God's word to us from which we can know Him better. If there is any doubt as to whether the Bible is true, there is historical evidence to back it up. Also, even though we may not be able to see God now, if we follow Him, one day we will see Him in Heaven. Sorry if it sounds like I'm preaching at you; I'm not trying to "convert" you; you can take it or leave it -- its up to you.You said, "What ways should I change though? I don't think I want to believe in him just yet, I don't think I'm ready. But I want to find him. The question of belief would be beyond easy to answer if I know he's real." Ready for what? Do you think that you will lose everything if you choose to believe in God? On the contrary; you will end up doing what you've always wanted to do even if you didn't know what that was -- God takes those desires and gives them to you, making them a reality in your life, because you trust in Him and He is pleased with you. So, what are your desires? Maybe that's where you can start; like one person here said, tell God what the desire of your heart is -- to know Him (if that's what you truly desire) -- tell Him that you don't think you're ready to believe in Him but you want to, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. Like I said before, He sees your heart; He knows that you are sincere and He is willing to help you; He honors sincerety. By the way, you don't have to change anything to come to God; just come to Him the way you are and He will accept you and show you if something needs changing. You said, "I look for evidence, I want to believe." -- Everyone does to a certain extent, but you have to be careful about this approach -- careful in the sense that you don't want to reject something just because you don't believe it when there is the possibility that it may be true.B.C. Johnson, himself an atheist, once said, "If God exists, there will be evidence of this; signs will emerge which point to such a conclusion."Here are some things to think about...Why do people deny the very things that point to God like creation, for example? Why waste time to refute something that shows that there may be a creator if God doesn't even exist? In fact, people who say, "God doesn't exist," (or even wonder if He exists, as you do) proves that He does or no one would waste their time on Him. Why do we have science? God gave the ideas to people; without God there would be no science at all. In fact, there wouldn't be much of anything good in the world at all, because man always turns good things into evil things. Without God, there would be nothing; not even a reason to do anything at all.You said, "I don't know where life came from at the absolute beginning. I'm not afraid to admit it. But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"?" There is plenty of evidence for creation. "Astronomers have discovered that the characteristics of the universe, of our galaxy and of our solar system are so finely tuned to support life that the only reasonable explanation for this is the forethought of a personal, intelligent Creator whose involvement explains the degree of finetunedness. It requires power and purpose." ~ Hugh Ross YOU are evidence that God exists -- your body operates without you even thinking about it, pumping blood, sending messages to the body, breaking down food, etc. Dr. Crick, the discoverer of DNA, concluded that the chance of a single molecule of DNA coming into existence by chance was 0.0%. He spent seventy-five years of his life teaching that life came into being from evolution, and yet he says it could never happen. He said, "An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle." The cell is so complex that one scientist said that no machine that man has or ever will make can compare to it. It contains information equal to that of a library of 4,000 volumes. Author Erwin Lutzer said, "If we multiply that by 30 trillion, we can begin to appreciate the complexity of a single human being." Sir Fred Hoyle, one of the leading scientists (as of 1997), found that the probability of just one cell coming into existence by chance was 10 to the 40,000th power years. (One mathematician said that anything with a probability higher than 10 to the 50th would never happen.) Chandra Wickramasinghe, Hoyle's helper, said, "Living systems could not have been generated by random processes, within a finite time-scale, in a finite universe." He and Hoyle both concluded that for life to exist anywhere in the universe, it must be there by the hand of an eternally existent being of infinite power, which if you desire to, you may call God. (Hoyle was an atheist at the time.)You said, "It could be an accident, yes, but I'm not asserting anything, you are. You need to show proof, not I. That's why I'm here. I could go to the Bible, yes, but i found too many inconsistencies, evils, and flat out wrongs in it. That why I'm looking for evidence outside the Bible. " Back to my original question: What inconsistencies do you find in the Bible? I think most, if not all, inconsistencies can easily be reconciled. "Think for a moment about what needs to be demonstrated concerning a 'difficulty' in order to transfer it into the category of a valid argument against doctrine. Certainly much more is required than the mere appearance of a contradiction. First, we must be certain that we have correctly understood the passage, the sense in which it uses words or numbers. Second, that we possess all available knowledge in this matter. Third, that no further light can possibly be thrown on it by advancing knowledge, textual research, archaeology, etc....Difficulties do not constitute objections. Unsolved problems are not of necessity errors... Until such a time as we have total and final light on any issue we are in no position to affirm, 'Here is a proven error, and unquestionable objection to an infallible Bible.'" ~ Robert M. Horn, page 45, The Book that Speaks for itself. What "evils and wrongs" have you encountered? Is it the miracles in the Bible? Please show me; I'm no expert, but I'll try to help. I really believe that this question is the key to your answer. The other thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn't expect everyone to prove every aspect of "Spirituality" to you before you will believe it; it is better to assume something is true until it can be proven false. (Think about it, we do it all the time.)Also, as one member mentioned, Jesus is God's Son -- He is God. Jesus is the Truth and truth has to correspond to reality, so if Jesus really is the truth, than God is real. If you can believe this, you will know that God exists, so I want to provide some evidence that Jesus is real. The biggest proof that Jesus existed is from the those who did not profess to be believers in Him (i.e. Thallus as someone mentioned already). One scholar said, "We should realize that it is quite extraordinary that we could provide a broad outline of most of the major facts of Jesus life from 'secular' history alone. Such is surely significant." Such examples, are Thallus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian of Samosata, and others as you have already seen.I would like to mention one more, though...Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born shortly after Jesus died. When he was thirteen, he was a consultant for Jewish rabbis. In his book, The Antiquities of the Jews, he writes,"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." If Josephus was a historian who was a Jewish consultant, don't you think he would have heard something about Jesus, especially since everyone was still talking about Him? (Note: There is some dispute about this passage, but that is only because some think that because Josephus was a Jew, he probably wasn't a Christian, so they think that some phrases were added to his original passage. That should not be assumed; for there are some Jews who are Christians, and even some Jews who aren't Christians have never doubted that Jesus lived . No one knows whether or not Josephus was a Christian, so we shouldn't say he wasn't, and it's not like him to write what he did, until we have proof that he wasn't.) (Josephus, Antiquity of the Jews, 18.3.3) Although this passage doesn't mention that Jesus was God, it is significant, because as a historian, Josephus would have mentioned any important persons who claimed to be the Messiah (because His purpose was to write a history of the Jewish nation); therefore, he would have looked at the prophecies in the Bible about the Messiah (there are 333 of them) to see which, if any, of these people "fit the bill." Having looked at Jesus, he would have seen that all 333 prophecies were fulfilled in this one man alone. The chances of one man even fulfilling 48 prophecies is like trying to randomly find a predetermined atom among all the atoms in a trillion trillion trillion trillion billion universes the size of our universe -- it's practically impossible. So even though Josephus doesn't mention much about Christ, he could conclude by his research that Jesus was the Messiah. And although some people might "accidentally" fulfill prophecy, there has NEVER been any one person who has fulfilled as many prophecies as Jesus Christ. The Talmud (a collection of ancient Jewish rabbinic writings) even mentions Jesus, and, although, it mentions Him mostly in a negative way, it doesn't take anything away from the facts.These are just a few examples, but all of them point to the fact that Jesus did live and that he was worshipped as God. It has been said that even if we had no Bible (the New Testament, specifically), by putting all of the quotes from the Church fathers/rabbis together, we have an outline of Jesus' life -- There are approximately 86,489 quotations from the church fathers! If you add to that the testimonies of the "secular" community at the time of Christ, you have a clear picture of Jesus life OUTSIDE THE BIBLE and you can see from these writers that Jesus is God. Another thing...Many early Christians testified to the fact that Jesus is God. Now some might say that because the early Christians were bias, they are not credible, but please hear me out. First, I'll tell you briefly about a few of them, and then I'll tell you why I think they were not bias.Clement of Rome was a bishop of Rome. Clement wrote, "The apostles received the gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their first-fruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe." (A.D. 95 or 96)Ignatius was bishop of the church at Antioch. He wrote, "For I have perceived that ye are ... fully persuaded as touching our Lord that He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and power..." According to Origen, Clement was a disciple of the Apostles. According to tradition, Ignatius was a disciple of Peter, Paul, and John.These two mention Jesus as God and many more mention Jesus' death, resurrection, and teachings. The point is that many of the early Christians were disciples of the apostles, so they learned from eyewitnesses. They were not bias; the word about Jesus' life was spreading to everyone everywhere, as Clement implies, whether Christian or nonChristian; And the "fire" of enthusiasm in these Christians caused many to believe and those who didn't believe at least knew what the Christians preached. When we read their writings, we also come up with an outline of Jesus life, apart from the Bible.For everyone of us, it is important to remember that if we don't like what we hear, before throwing it out, we should make sure that we have fully examined it from ALL angles. (And I hope I have provided a few new angles for you.) We MUST be willing to follow the evidence wherever it leads; that's the definition of open-mind. In other words, we have to throw away all our biases and look at the evidence objectively. Well, I'm finished now -- FINALLY! If you read all the way down to the bottom of this, thank you for your time. Sorry it was so long. If you have any questions about what I wrote, please don't hesitate to ask; I've always got a listening ear and I'll do my best to answer your questions. Please don't be offended at all the spirituality. I pray that God would make Himself real to you.

 

[Remagoen]

To His By Grace,

You know, I guess when you're raised up in a Christian home, it can make it so much easier to become a Christian. But, there still has to be that point in one's life when they decide for themselves that they are choosing to follow Christ because they want to; because they realize what He sacrificed for them and how much He loves them.

This brings me to the fact that most Muslims are raised Muslim, most Jews are raised Jewish, most Hindus are raised Hindu, most Christians are raised... Christian. It's just easier for a to indoctrinate their sons and daughters into their religion. Rarely do you find this the other way around. Of course, you will have your converts provided that son or daughter starts to think for his or herself, but they still need to think about it.

I was worried about what you said about giving up, but then when I saw that you are reading Mere Christianity I was so encouraged!

I still am thinking about giving up on here. Of course I won't ever close my mind, but out of 13 pages, I've yet to see one hard piece of evidence nor an argument that doesn't contain a logical fallacy. Only three people so far have made me think enough to want me to stay.

You may think I have empathy for people, and you know, to a certain degree you're right. I do think the Lord instilled within me the gift of compassion, a desire to help others, and an ability to feel others' pain.

I know I'm write. As humans we all know of empathy unless we have a malfuction in our brains that could cause us to be murderers. But why attribute this to God? Where did you get your proof from?

This is sometimes quite a burdensome thing, though. I surely don't think anything good would dwell within me without the Lord Jesus (see John 15:5 and Jeremiah 17:9). God has reminded me that He tenderly cares for me and all of the things I'm praying about. He can do that for you too. He isn't a respector of persons in that regard.

Have some faith in yourself! I've rejected God and Jesus and I would help my friends and neighbors. You are capable of doing great things on your own! Be confident!

Just this morning as I was reading about Jesus providing the loaves of bread and fish by multiplying the boy's lunch, His own words took on so much more meaning. He said, " Gather all of the fragments so that nothing is lost." I heard the Spirit whisper to me,"Even people who are in a fragmented life;I came to save them too. I want to bring them to myself. I hear you."

Funny. That original quote is rather vague. I could read so many more things into it. This is why I don't like the Bible, it's just too vague at some points and one could take almost any meaning from so many different passages.

You see, there is so much more than just the literal words on the pages of His Holy Word. He brings His Holy Breath and makes it alive as we read, seek, and ask for guidance. It's like peeling the layers of an onion. You can read for basic information; that's the outer layer. Then, you can look for some basic life application/historical proofs. That's another layer. Then, as you read it over and over again-even for years- He just keeps revealing truths of life and how He will be there to continue to provide your needs.

You can do that with vague passages, yes.

It cannot be my imagination.

Why can't it be?

I'm not smart enough to think this deeply into things.

Again, have faith in yourself. Have confidence! You're smart enough to type this to me, surely you are smart enough for other things as well. Study, read, learn. Become smarter! Never limit yourself and your own capabilities!

Anyway, just know that you're being thought of and prayed for.

Thank you.

I'm glad you feel comfortable here.

I'm starting not to.

I hope you have a very blessed Easter.

Thank you.



To Rudy,

I took the liberty of edited what you said. All of these edits are in the mindset of shortening your post, but containing enough of what you said so that I could properly reply to you. If you notice a critical piece of what you said missing, please tell me so I can avoid skipping over it. I also try to cover each point as quickly as possible, so I might not be as direct as I usually am.

Here are my thoughts... (Sorry if some of this might sound like a repeat, but I just wrote what I was thinking as I read the posts... I haven't finished reading them yet. Also, please note that this is LONG...Sorry!)
What I am about to say may sound strange, but please don't get angry; I have no intention of insulting you, I'm just trying to be helpful. If you don't understand something, please ask questions before getting mad; I tried to make this as nice as possible... I'll warn you that I do mention the Bible a lot... please don't be offended (I didn't quote anything), but most of this is from the "spiritual" perspective. That said, please hear me out...

I won't be insulted unless you make a direct attack upon myself or my intelligence. From prereading this before my reply, I didn't see anything, so don't worry.

First of all, come to God with a sincere heart and ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will make Himself real to you. Perhaps, ask Him for a sign. I know of a number of different people who asked God to show them a sign to confirm that He was there and that He loved them and God did it. He doesn't favor people; if He did it for them, He'll do it for you, too. God has placed it into the heart of man to know Him, so if you sincerely seek for Him, you will find Him; that's His reward to you, because He cares about YOU. He honors faith/trust because it proves to Him that you really are sincere; you're not just looking for answers so that you can turn around and mock Him.

I admit, I mock him. Of course, I don't mock him in a sense that I do it with rudeness, I mock him as a brother would playfully kid with his other brother, or even his father. In other words, I joke. This, however, still goes with the backdrop of me not believing in him. I asked, and asked, and asked. Nothing has ever happened. It was from there that I started to get the feeling I was talking to the ceiling, not the other way around.

You said that you tried praying before but it felt weird -- Here are a couple things to think about:
First, Prayer is simply talking to God, just like you would to a friend. You don't have to use any elaborate words like "Thees and Thous." Be yourself, but set aside all your feelings and just talk to Him from your heart. It can seem weird at first, but keep trying -- don't stop. Keep trying and trying and eventually, you will push past that feeling and it won't be an issue anymore. Sometimes it can feel like you're talking to the ceiling or the air, but God is right there listening to you. Be honest with God -- tell Him how you feel and ask Him to help you.
Second, when we talk to a friend on the telephone, we have faith that it is indeed our friend even though we can't see him, because we hear him and we know him. So it is with God -- we can't see Him, but that's because no one could see God and live; He's that powerful. We CAN hear Him though, because as we get to know Him, He will speak to us, to the point where we will get to know His voice, just as we know the voice of a friend. When I say, "we can hear God," I'm not talking about an audible voice, although some people do hear God in an audible way. Most of the time, it's just a knowing in your heart that this is God. God can also speak to us through our thoughts. That's why it's important to know God so that we can tell when it is our own thought or His. It's all about building a relationship with God, just as you would your friend. Wouldn't your friend be angry if you didn't talk to him for weeks, months, or even years? It would certainly ruin your relationship. That's why we talk to God -- to develop our relationship and to keep it strong. (Sure we can tell Him what's going wrong or what we need, or whatever, but that is the primary reason we talk with God.)

I am honest. Honesty is one of my virtues.

Even then, why should I have to tell God anything. While I understand that unless I ask for things I wouldn't get them, telling an all knowing being how I feel is rather redundant. Just think of the scenario: "Hey God, I'm depressed." "Yeah, I already know." "Can you help me?" "Ask and you shall receive." See my point?

Your point of the friend is still moot: While "it's like talking on a cell phone", it's really not. I know that I can actually see, touch, smell my friend at almost any time I want. I can't with God. You're argument about "hearing God" is also weak because you use loose language. You either hear God, or you don't.

Third, if we want to call a friend on a cellphone and it doesn't get a connection, what do we do? We figure out what the problem is, fix it, and then we are able to call. If you are trying to talk to God, but just can't seem to "get a connection," come to God, believing that He exists, even if you don't know Who He is; that way, you can at least "get the connection"; That's what faith is -- it is believing even when you don't
understand every aspect of something and you may not be able to see it.

"Come to God believing he exists." This is totally backwards of the skeptical method and defeats the purpose of asking questions. It's like asking you to "come to Atheism believing God doesn't exist." Impossible, right? You have to make a logical leap and totally ignore everything you've learned thus far.

If faith is a stumbling block for you, think about this: We excercise faith every day -- sometimes even in things we can't see: A pilot has faith that the wind will lift his plan and give it flight; we expect our friends to trust us and we in turn trust them; we have faith that our chair will hold us up when we sit on it; we have faith that the weather report will be accurate, so we dress accordingly, etc. If we did not have faith in these things, we would not trust anyone, would check out the chair to make sure it was sturdy, and would disregard the weather when we dress.

I have faith that my chair won't break beneath me. I have faith that my car will start in the morning. I have faith that H means Hot and C means Cold. Seems you're right that I have faith and use it every day. But you know what? The second this chair breaks, I won't be as trusting for the next one I sit in. I learned through past experiences that chairs are stable, and expect them to remain that way in the future. The moment I turn the faucet to C and burn my hands, I'll inspect that sink the next few times to make sure it doesn't happen again (this HAS happened to me). But just because I have faith in some things doesn't mean I have faith in other things. They must prove themselves to me first in some form in order for me to rely and trust them.

More, this really isn't "faith". All forms of faith are blind unless you are talking about the faith in relation to a deity. The cases you refer to usually have something of a habit that we learned from birth, be it friends or chairs, cars or sinks, and so it's better to call it "expectation" rather than "faith".

As for faith in God, it is not a "blind faith" as you have implied. There is no such thing as "blind faith." The Bible makes it clear that Christianity is not a blind faith. (I would quote the Bible to support this, but I'm honoring your request.) "The belief of an individual involves the mind, the emotions,
and the will. The Holy Spirit does not work a blind and ungrounded faith in the heart." (F.R. Beattie) "Faith in Christianity is based on evidence; it is a reasonable faith. Faith in the Christian sense goes beyond reason but not against it." (Paul Littleton)

Like I just said above, faith is blind unless you are referring to faith in a deity. Through the course of reading people's posts on this forum, I realized that they spoke of God in a way where they "sensed" him. If you sense something, you KNOW it, and therefore don't need faith to rely on it. But, as M-W says:

"2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust"

Of course, here I refer to "2 a".

The Bible is our ticket to knowing and experiencing God. The Bible is God's word to us; therefore, when we read it, we can know what God is saying to us and it will help us to know God better. Allow me to illustrate: Those of us alive today never met Abraham Lincoln and yet we believe that he existed. Why? Because we have letters from him, documents about him, statements about him from friends, etc. So it is with the Bible; it is God's letter to us telling us who He is and, and it has eyewitness testimony of God in the form of man (Jesus) on this earth [from His friends AND enemies].

The Bible is unreliable. Historians were physically present in many occasions where Lincoln gave speeches to give first (not second) hand testimony.

Why do you think the Bible is evil? Is it a particular passage or is it what appears to be a contradiction? Please give me some examples.

I'm not going to get into a conversation about the Bible. If God exists, I should be able to find him outside of the book too, not just inside.

If there is any doubt as to whether the Bible is true, there is historical evidence to back it up.

And there is historical evidence that refutes the Bible. This is the end of discussion about the Bible.

Do you think that you will lose everything if you choose to believe in God? On the contrary; you will end up doing what you've always wanted to do even if you didn't know what that was -- God takes those desires and gives them to you, making them a reality in your life, because you trust in Him and He is pleased with you. So, what are your desires? Maybe that's where you can start; like one person here said, tell God what the desire of your heart is -- to know Him (if that's what you truly desire) -- tell Him that you don't think you're ready to believe in Him but you want to, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. Like I said before, He sees your heart; He knows that you are sincere and He is willing to help you; He honors sincerety. By the way, you don't have to change anything to come to God; just come to Him the way you are and He will accept you and show you if something needs changing.

I don't know what my desires are yet. I'm still trying to find them. Also, why should I tell God something he already knows? I've asked him countless times to reveal himself. Nothing happens, ever.

You said, "I look for evidence, I want to believe." -- Everyone does to a certain extent, but you have to be careful about this approach -- careful in the sense that you don't want to reject something just because you don't believe it when there is the possibility that it may be true.

I reject the idea that there are Martians on the basis that there is no current proof of them to me. Is this wrong? Change a few words and you'll get the same viewpoint about me and God. Still though, you have a point, and you should follow it too.

B.C. Johnson, himself an atheist, once said, "If God exists, there will be evidence of this; signs will emerge which point to such a conclusion."

I think Johnson was a smart man with that quote.

Here are some things to think about...
Why do people deny the very things that point to God like creation, for example? Why waste time to refute something that shows that there may be a creator if God doesn't even exist? In fact, people who say, "God doesn't exist," (or even wonder if He exists, as you do) proves that He does or no one would waste their time on Him. Why do we have science? God gave the ideas to people; without God there would be no science at all. In fact, there wouldn't be much of anything good in the world at all, because man always turns good things into evil things. Without God, there would be nothing; not even a reason to do anything at all.

"In fact, people who say, ' doesn't exist,' proves that does or no one would waste their time on Him." I guess, by your own words, Allah, Shiva, Thor, Zeus, Jupiter, Horus all exist because people waste their time on them. More, please come up with a better idea, and please come up with your own argument that hasn't been refuted before.

You said, "I don't know where life came from at the absolute beginning. I'm not afraid to admit it. But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"?"
There is plenty of evidence for creation. "Astronomers have discovered that the characteristics of the universe, of our galaxy and of our solar system are so finely tuned to support life that the only reasonable explanation for this is the forethought of a personal, intelligent Creator whose involvement explains the degree of finetunedness. It requires power and purpose." ~ Hugh Ross

The ignorance of Ross's statement astounds me. He seems to have forgotten about just how deadly even our own PLANET is, let alone anything larger. It's not fine tuned. At any moment, we can die from earth quakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, fires, volcanoes, tornadoes, blizzards, droughts. At any moment, a solar flare can roast us, an asteroid can burn us, a comet can nuke us, the sun can go nova. At any moment, a nearby star can explode and bombard our planet with gamma rays or kill us off by super nova. At any moment, a black hole can suck us in. In fact, if you want all the different varieties of how the universe is so horribly tuned for life showing a sadistic maker (if any at all), read Neil deGrasse Tyson's "Death By Black Hole".

In case you don't have access to the book, or would just like a small pill sized version of it, and a direct counter-argument to Dr. Ross, watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_nqySMvkcw

YOU are evidence that God exists -- your body operates without you even thinking about it, pumping blood, sending messages to the body, breaking down food, etc. Dr. Crick, the discoverer of DNA, concluded that the chance of a single molecule of DNA coming into existence by chance was 0.0%. He spent seventy-five years of his life teaching that life came into being from evolution, and yet he says it could never happen. He said, "An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle."

FULL STOP! Quote mining is NOT a proper way to win over a believer and shows, above all, your disrespect of the speaker by taking their quotes out of context. Dr. Crick, was at most an agnostic, and he labeled himself a probable atheist. With that knowledge, can you honestly think he was referring to the "Godly" miracle? I think not. I think he was referring to the, "Oh wow, this actually happened" miracle.

That's the problem with the word, it's too often thrown around needlessly.

And remember, 0.0% could also mean 0.000000001%, just less precise.

The cell is so complex that one scientist said that no machine that man has or ever will make can compare to it. It contains information equal to that of a library of 4,000 volumes. Author Erwin Lutzer said, "If we multiply that by 30 trillion, we can begin to appreciate the complexity of a single human being." Sir Fred Hoyle, one of the leading scientists (as of 1997), found that the probability of just one cell coming into existence by chance was 10 to the 40,000th power years. (One mathematician said that anything with a probability higher than 10 to the 50th would never happen.) Chandra Wickramasinghe, Hoyle's helper, said, "Living systems could not have been generated by random processes, within a finite time-scale, in a finite universe." He and Hoyle both concluded that for life to exist anywhere in the universe, it must be there by the hand of an eternally existent being of infinite power, which if you desire to, you may call God. (Hoyle was an atheist at the time.)

Throughout history, many scientists have said many things that have been taken as challenges to be proven wrong.

AS for Hoyle, he's not "leading". In fact, I think he's rather shunned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoyle%27s_Fallacy

You said, "It could be an accident, yes, but I'm not asserting anything, you are. You need to show proof, not I. That's why I'm here. I could go to the Bible, yes, but i found too many inconsistencies, evils, and flat out wrongs in it. That why I'm looking for evidence outside the Bible. " Back to my original question: What inconsistencies do you find in the Bible? I think most, if not all, inconsistencies can easily be reconciled. "Think for a moment about what needs to be demonstrated concerning a 'difficulty' in order to transfer it into the category of a valid argument against doctrine. Certainly much more is required than the mere appearance of a contradiction. First, we must be certain that we have correctly understood the passage, the sense in which it uses words or numbers. Second, that we possess all available knowledge in this matter. Third, that no further light can possibly be thrown on it by advancing knowledge, textual research, archaeology, etc....Difficulties do not constitute objections. Unsolved problems are not of necessity errors... Until such a time as we have total and final light on any issue we
are in no position to affirm, 'Here is a proven error, and unquestionable objection to an infallible Bible.'" ~ Robert M. Horn, page 45, The Book that Speaks for itself.
What "evils and wrongs" have you encountered? Is it the miracles in the Bible? Please show me; I'm no expert, but I'll try to help. I really believe that this question is the key to your answer. The other thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn't expect everyone to prove every aspect of "Spirituality" to you before you will believe it; it is better to assume something is true until it can be proven false. (Think about it, we do it all the time.)

Once again, I'm not getting into the Bible.

Also, as one member mentioned, Jesus is God's Son -- He is God. Jesus is the Truth and truth has to correspond to reality, so if Jesus really is the truth, than God is real. If you can believe this, you will know that God exists, so I want to provide some evidence that Jesus is real. The biggest proof that Jesus existed is from the those who did not profess to be believers in Him (i.e. Thallus as someone mentioned already). One scholar said, "We should realize that it is quite extraordinary that we could provide a broad outline of most of the major facts of Jesus life from 'secular' history alone. Such is surely significant." Such examples, are Thallus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian of Samosata, and others as you have already seen.

I would like to mention one more, though...
Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born shortly after Jesus died. When he was thirteen, he was a consultant for Jewish rabbis. In his book, The Antiquities of the Jews, he writes,

I have said several times that the veracity of Jesus's existence is in question. While I have not yet decided 100% on this subject, I'm leaning more toward him not existing. I'm still open to the thought of him actually being real, but even then, i wholeheartedly doubt this miracles, as you always hear about them by second hand, never first. Friends of friends, so to speak.

The chances of one man even fulfilling 48 prophecies is like trying to randomly find a predetermined atom among all the atoms in a trillion trillion trillion trillion billion universes the size of our universe -- it's practically impossible. So even though Josephus doesn't mention much about Christ, he could conclude by his research that Jesus was the Messiah. And although some people might "accidentally" fulfill
prophecy, there has NEVER been any one person who has fulfilled as many prophecies as Jesus Christ.

How did you get that number, the trillion trillion number, I mean.

As for Jesus being the Messiah, there were many other people in that time period that also claimed to be it. If Josephus was a Jew and he acknowledged Jesus to be the Messiah, why isn't he Christian instead? Rather large inconsistency, I think.

The Talmud (a collection of ancient Jewish rabbinic writings) even mentions Jesus, and, although, it mentions Him mostly in a negative way, it doesn't take anything away from the facts.

These are just a few examples, but all of them point to the fact that Jesus did live and that he was worshipped as God. It has been said that even if we had no Bible (the New Testament, specifically), by putting all of the quotes from the Church fathers/rabbis together, we have an outline of Jesus' life -- There are approximately 86,489 quotations from the church fathers! If you add to that the testimonies of the "secular" community at the time of Christ, you have a clear picture of Jesus life OUTSIDE THE BIBLE and you can see from these writers that Jesus is God.

The Talmud was written after the fact through second hand information. All the church founders learned about Jesus through second hand. If they man really did walk on water, you'd figure more than a few people would jot this down. You'd figure that there would be first hand accounts everywhere. You'd figure there wouldn't be any skeptics.

Another thing...
Many early Christians testified to the fact that Jesus is God. Now some might say that because the early Christians were bias, they are not credible, but please hear me out. First, I'll tell you briefly about a few of them, and then I'll tell you why I think they were not bias.

And none of the witnesses anything first hand. If you are willing to accept nothing but second hand information, I've got to tell you about my friend Jorge... He's dead now, but you'll never believe some of the things he did...

These two mention Jesus as God and many more mention Jesus' death, resurrection, and teachings. The point is that many of the early Christians were disciples of the apostles, so they learned from eyewitnesses. They were not bias; the word about Jesus' life was spreading to everyone everywhere, as Clement implies, whether Christian or nonChristian; And the "fire" of enthusiasm in these Christians caused many to believe and those who didn't believe at least knew what the Christians preached. When we read their writings, we also come up with an outline of Jesus life, apart from the Bible.

Friend of a friend.

Jorge was a cool guy: He's one of the few people that could calculate square roots of huge numbers (think greater than one million) all in his head and under a second. Genius! He'd bend over backwards for you too. Heck, that's why he's not here any more; he jumped in front of a bullet to save me.

Don't believe me do you? Then why would you believe other friend of a friend stories?

For everyone of us, it is important to remember that if we don't like what we hear, before throwing it out, we should make sure that we have fully examined it from ALL angles. (And I hope I have provided a few new angles for you.) We MUST be willing to follow the evidence wherever it leads; that's the definition of open-mind. In other words, we have to throw away all our biases and look at the evidence objectively.

The points I brought up to you is by looking at things from a different angle. Instead of just accepting what you said, I thought about it, looked for other plausable reasons, and placed them before me. From there, I choose the simpler, more realistic of the choices. Why this? Simple: Why believe in the super natural when something perfectly natural could explain it just as well?

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(Remagoen;36831)
In all the debates before, the Bible has always come up. I've read it, albeit not the whole thing, but a considerable chunk of it.
Have you ever researched the political climate of Judea in the first centuries? (bce and ce)

 

[Remagoen]

(Saint Gutfree;42281)
Have you ever researched the political climate of Judea in the first centuries? (bce and ce)
Only very minimally.I play a game called Rome: Total War and Rome: Total War: Barbarian Invasion. Rome is set around 120 BCE, if I remember correctly, and ends somewhere after 0 CE, not long after in fact. R:BI starts sometime shortly after the Roman Empire was split in half, and also adds on a lot of religion to manage and keep your population happy.Because of these games, I became more interested in the times and did some research, covering local area very briefly.

 

[zadzial]

Hi Remagoen,I am new to this forum and came across this thread (I am still reading through it though - it is getting quite long). There is much that has been said on this thread and I am not sure that I can add anything to it at this stage. I did want to say that I am glad that you are reading Mere Christianity. I love his books and love the way he puts things. I encourage you to keep searching for God - He is worth it. If I can help you in anyway I will, but at the moment I think the best way is to join others that are praying for you.

 

[Remagoen]

(zadzial;42320)
Hi Remagoen,I am new to this forum and came across this thread (I am still reading through it though - it is getting quite long). There is much that has been said on this thread and I am not sure that I can add anything to it at this stage. I did want to say that I am glad that you are reading Mere Christianity. I love his books and love the way he puts things. I encourage you to keep searching for God - He is worth it. If I can help you in anyway I will, but at the moment I think the best way is to join others that are praying for you.
Hello and welcome, Zadzial.Yes, I'm reading MC, but it's starting to make me wonder. To me, several of the arguments I've come across are either one sided or flawed in some way or form. I may put the book down very soon.

 

[zadzial]

(Remagoen;42341)
Hello and welcome, Zadzial.Yes, I'm reading MC, but it's starting to make me wonder. To me, several of the arguments I've come across are either one sided or flawed in some way or form. I may put the book down very soon.
Thanks for the nice welcome. It has been a while sonce I read Mere Christianity, but if you want to discuss any of the arguments with me I am more than happy to do so.

 

[Remagoen]

(zadzial;42524)
Thanks for the nice welcome. It has been a while sonce I read Mere Christianity, but if you want to discuss any of the arguments with me I am more than happy to do so.
Sure!I brought some points up in post #121: http://www.christianityboard.com/showpost....3&postcount=121Would you like to discuss this part? I don't have the book on hand though, I've been reading it on my lunch hour at my bookstore.

 

[zadzial]

(Remagoen;42537)
Sure!I brought some points up in post #121: http://www.christianityboard.com/showpost....3&postcount=121Would you like to discuss this part? I don't have the book on hand though, I've been reading it on my lunch hour at my bookstore.
Hi, I will have a look at the post. As I said it has been a while since I read it so if I am slow in responding it is just because I am rereading it.

 

[zadzial]

(Remagoen;41223)
Anyway, on to Lewis.Browsing the ToC, I found the section of faith rather interesting, so I thumbed over to it. What I read shocked me and made complete sense, and I think I'll refer other Atheists over to it. Basically, if I don't believe in faith, don't worry about it, just skip over it (though he didn't say don't read anything), and come back at a later time. He said, faith is something that comes naturally, and that I should just let it be.That makes sense. It really does.
I am glad. Lewis often has the ability to pinpoint an area that we can easily get bogged down in, and helps us out. It is good advice for you to not worry about faith. It could be that you are searching for faith rather than searching for God. [Don't take that the wrong way, it is just a thought and might be completely wrong, but it may also be worth thinking about].(Remagoen;41223)
Seeing how I now had nothing to read, I went over to Sexual Morality, as it is something I'm very passionate about. He gave three examples (the first to of which I thoroughly agree with, the third I couldn't accept [forgot why] but do acknowledge) of comparing sex and food, and I see no reason to change this excellent analogy. I don't remember them exactly from the top of my head but the basics are as follows:
I thought it was a good analogy also.(Remagoen;41223)
Sex and food are both necessary. Food is for sustaining the body with energy, while sex is to further the human race. We wouldn't go around eating everything in sight, so why should we go around and have sex with everything in sight. That makes perfect sense. (Rereading what I just said really does no justice for Lewis said, and I totally encourage anyone reading this to go and read it his or herself.)He fails to cover something interesting, however. Whether that is an actual failure or just a ignorance from the time he was living in (with the lack of recent studies and advances in biology), I don't know. That point he missed is about the health benefits of having sex, including having a healthier immune system, healthier heart, and clearer mind. These right here would be like, keeling with his analogy, taking vitamins. (Again, rereading that, I think that's a bad comparison. If someone finds it weak, please ask me to make it clearer.)Of course, I don't mention this with the idea of supporting rape or orgies; both partners should be consenting, mature individuals.
I agree with you that it is something he could have mentioned, but remember that he is just a man and that what he says in his books may or may not be 100% accurate. Also, you do not have to agree with everything he says to still get a lot out of his books. Especially when it comes to analogies it is important not to take them too far. I do think you suggestion that maybe he was not aware about the health benefits of sex is likely.However, maybe these are some points worth considering:While it is true that sex has a lot of health benefits, if it is used inappropriately it can have negative consequences as well. Likewise (to continue the food analogy) it is important to eat the right kinds of food and in the right amounts otherwise there are negative consequences. For example, having an extra marital affair can have negative consequences on the marriage. Having sex with a lot of people can open you up to various diseases (and can also cause a lot of emotional damage). Even having sex before marriage (with a few or with many people) can also have negative consequences (often emotional) but these are not always readily identifiable. Also, while sex does have a lot of health benefits, a person can live quite happily without having sex at all during life. Not my personal preference, (I am happily married by the way), but I believe it can be done.As you said, this is a topic you are very passionate about and it is also a topic a lot of non-christians are passionate about. Before I became a Christian (and even afterwards) I really struggled with this issue. My advice to you, like the issue with faith, don't get too bogged down in this issue. It can really cloud your mind in regards to more important matters.

 

[Remagoen]

(zadzial;42568)
I agree with you that it is something he could have mentioned, but remember that he is just a man and that what he says in his books may or may not be 100% accurate. Also, you do not have to agree with everything he says to still get a lot out of his books. Especially when it comes to analogies it is important not to take them too far. I do think you suggestion that maybe he was not aware about the health benefits of sex is likely.
Yeah, I was leaning mostly toward him not having the information at the time, as the health benefits are rather recent compared to when the book was written.I would never claim him to be 100% accurate, which is why i was reading him with a critical eye.For the analogies, you have a point that one shouldn't take them too far. They will bog themselves down too much if they are. That's why sometimes speakers should switch methods of description. He could say, "This is how sex and food are similar, but lets also talk about how sex is good for you."(zadzial;42568)
However, maybe these are some points worth considering:While it is true that sex has a lot of health benefits, if it is used inappropriately it can have negative consequences as well. Likewise (to continue the food analogy) it is important to eat the right kinds of food and in the right amounts otherwise there are negative consequences. For example, having an extra marital affair can have negative consequences on the marriage. Having sex with a lot of people can open you up to various diseases (and can also cause a lot of emotional damage). Even having sex before marriage (with a few or with many people) can also have negative consequences (often emotional) but these are not always readily identifiable.
Let's continue with the fruit, and lets make it a specific one just for fun: The Apple.Apples can rot, they could contain parasites, could contain other nasties. Wouldn't you avoid those apples just as much as you would avoid someone with HIV or AIDS or some other STD? On top of that, condoms could be similar to washing the apple of pesticides so that you don't ingest the poison. It's good to practice safe sex, just as much as it's good to make sure your food is clean.The extramarital sex point is a good one. If I were to be married, it's one of the items that are on the list: No more sleeping around.For premarital sex, I'll compare it with the apple again (though it'll be shaky, I think). Sometimes, you take a bite into the apple and it takes good, sometimes its mushy, sometimes its sour. Each of these is an emotional experience, only it matters little compared to those things. "Yik!" you say as it feels powdery and sour. "Oooo!" you say as it has that perfect, crisp crunch. To move over to sex, it could be the same thing. So long as both partners are consenting adults, they realize the positives and negatives that go with the act.As as another point, everything you do could have an emotional impact upon yourself. Would you limit yourself in all acts of life because of a probable negative emotion coming along with it at any time?(zadzial;42568)
Also, while sex does have a lot of health benefits, a person can live quite happily without having sex at all during life. Not my personal preference, (I am happily married by the way), but I believe it can be done.
Think of the sexual frustrations! Think of those negative consequences.To seriously respond to you, however, why? Just because you can isn't a good reason to do (or in this case, not do) something. If there were more reasons not to have sex than to have sex, we can visit this idea. But for now, you seem to agree that, at the very least, sex is a mixed bag.(zadzial;42568)
As you said, this is a topic you are very passionate about and it is also a topic a lot of non-christians are passionate about. Before I became a Christian (and even afterwards) I really struggled with this issue. My advice to you, like the issue with faith, don't get too bogged down in this issue. It can really cloud your mind in regards to more important matters.
I don't think I'm bogged down. I think this subject is rather clear to me. However, I should treat it with priority, as you implied. I'm not going to put it at the top of the totem poll when I have other, more important matters to think about. But if I have a few spare minutes, I could entertain the idea of another subject, can't I?

 

[zadzial]

(Remagoen;42593)
Yeah, I was leaning mostly toward him not having the information at the time, as the health benefits are rather recent compared to when the book was written.I would never claim him to be 100% accurate, which is why i was reading him with a critical eye.For the analogies, you have a point that one shouldn't take them too far. They will bog themselves down too much if they are. That's why sometimes speakers should switch methods of description. He could say, "This is how sex and food are similar, but lets also talk about how sex is good for you." Let's continue with the fruit, and lets make it a specific one just for fun: The Apple.Apples can rot, they could contain parasites, could contain other nasties. Wouldn't you avoid those apples just as much as you would avoid someone with HIV or AIDS or some other STD? On top of that, condoms could be similar to washing the apple of pesticides so that you don't ingest the poison. It's good to practice safe sex, just as much as it's good to make sure your food is clean.
Of course, always recommend safe sex. (Remagoen;42593)
The extramarital sex point is a good one. If I were to be married, it's one of the items that are on the list: No more sleeping around.For premarital sex, I'll compare it with the apple again (though it'll be shaky, I think). Sometimes, you take a bite into the apple and it takes good, sometimes its mushy, sometimes its sour. Each of these is an emotional experience, only it matters little compared to those things. "Yik!" you say as it feels powdery and sour. "Oooo!" you say as it has that perfect, crisp crunch. To move over to sex, it could be the same thing. So long as both partners are consenting adults, they realize the positives and negatives that go with the act.As as another point, everything you do could have an emotional impact upon yourself. Would you limit yourself in all acts of life because of a probable negative emotion coming along with it at any time?
You are right that you can not limit life because of potential negative consequences. However, a point to consider: When you were a child your parents would always tell you "Don't do that" when you were about to do something wrong - like run out onto the road, or watch while you were walking down stairs instead of the toy in your hand, or lots of other things. They said this to you because they were concerned about your safety and well being. Now you may not have any idea about the danger that you could were about to place yourself in, but you had the choice to obey or not. By obeying you were showing trust that your parents new what was best for you and if they said don't do something it was because they had a good reason. Of course how many of us obeyed our parents all the time? As a Christian I think it is therefore important to listen when God says "Don't have sex outside of marriage." You may think that you know what negative consequences may be, and decide that the positives outweigh the negatives. However, we can never be sure what the consequences will be for anything. Just becuase we can learn from our mistakes doesn't mean it wouldn't be better not to make any. (Remagoen;42593)
Think of the sexual frustrations! Think of those negative consequences.To seriously respond to you, however, why? Just because you can isn't a good reason to do (or in this case, not do) something. If there were more reasons not to have sex than to have sex, we can visit this idea. But for now, you seem to agree that, at the very least, sex is a mixed bag.
I think it is best to be cautious. (Remagoen;42593)
I don't think I'm bogged down. I think this subject is rather clear to me. However, I should treat it with priority, as you implied. I'm not going to put it at the top of the totem poll when I have other, more important matters to think about. But if I have a few spare minutes, I could entertain the idea of another subject, can't I?
Of course, thinking about things is good. Have you read any other parts of Mere Christianity yet?

 

[Remagoen]

And this brings me back to the question of God. Unlike God, I could hear, see and so so many things with my parents. I could ask them why I shouldn't run out there in the street. But with God, I don't see him, feel him. Why should I follow something I don't think exists?

Of course' date=' thinking about things is good. Have you read any other parts of Mere Christianity yet?[/QUOTE']I've, no. I'm trying to finish up my Star Wars: Death Star novel. FINE work of fiction, if I do say so. If you like SW and would like to see the war from the Empire's perspective, definitely pick it up.

 

[zadzial]

I am a cautious person by nature.

I've' date=' no. I'm trying to finish up my Star Wars: Death Star novel. FINE work of fiction, if I do say so. If you like SW and would like to see the war from the Empire's perspective, definitely pick it up.[/QUOTE']I don't believe it! My husband is reading the same book! I liked the movies but having yet got into the books.

 

[Remagoen]

(zadzial;42741)
You can't follow something that you don't think exists. I would love to help you see that God does exist, (it is something I am 100% convince about) but I am not sure how to do it without referring to the Bible (which I know you don't wish to talk about).
I don't refer to the Bible because I've seen evil things in it, because I believe it was written by man. I figure now is a good time to bring this up as well: I would NEVER harm any Bible. Even though it's only a book to me, I think it should still be treated with respect and guarded from those who wish to destroy them. Even though I don't think it's accurate for history, it still is A PART of history and bonded to human traditions and part of our story and heritage. Just like the great works of past authors, Bibles should be protected.(zadzial;42741)
I am a cautious person by nature.
There is nothing wrong with that, but don't allow yourself to miss out on great opportunities because of it.(zadzial;42741)
I don't believe it! My husband is reading the same book! I liked the movies but having yet got into the books.
With up that one or Shadow's of the Empire, same author. It's a damn good book and a perfect place to read about SW. I tend to stick to books that take place within the movies and deal with minor characters more than the tired Luke, and I l stay away from the series unless it's following a minor character in SW lore.Definately check out Death Star though. Very good, and takes place just before the start of A New Hope.

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

You gotta make the choice God or not? That simple.

 

[Christina]

(Remagoen;42828)
I don't refer to the Bible because I've seen evil things in it, because I believe it was written by man. I figure now is a good time to bring this up as well: I would NEVER harm any Bible. Even though it's only a book to me, I think it should still be treated with respect and guarded from those who wish to destroy them. Even though I don't think it's accurate for history, it still is A PART of history and bonded to human traditions and part of our story and heritage. Just like the great works of past authors, Bibles should be protected.There is nothing wrong with that, but don't allow yourself to miss out on great opportunities because of it.With up that one or Shadow's of the Empire, same author. It's a damn good book and a perfect place to read about SW. I tend to stick to books that take place within the movies and deal with minor characters more than the tired Luke, and I l stay away from the series unless it's following a minor character in SW lore.Definately check out Death Star though. Very good, and takes place just before the start of A New Hope.
How can you see what you dont understand?? your like everyone else who has heard and read out of lack of understanding and claim knowledge you know nothing.