I'm an agnostic atheist. I know these words sound contradictory, but hear me out, please...My knowledge is limited; there is no way I can possibly know everything. I can search under a million rocks in the desert and there'll still be a billion more by the time I die. I can read all the biology books ever published, and I'll be missing all the chemistry books. There's simply not enough time, and certainly too many little bits of stuff out there. That said, I admit that there might be Yahweh, or a god or gods out there and I just haven't found that special stone yet, and therefore I'm agnostic. However, of all the stones and books I've looked under and through, I haven't found anything that proves to me there's God. And through that I'm an atheist--an agnostic atheist--because I've chosen to disbelieve from what evidence has been provided to me.I'll admit I might be wrong, just as I might be wrong that it really is pronounced to-mah-toe, not to-may-toe. I admit this. And because I admit this, I know the consequences are there if I make the wrong choice. Do I really cease to exist outside of a decaying, rotting body in the earth, or will I burn in Hell? I don't want to be wrong with this choice, and so I seek with an open mind. I'm here because I want to believe. I really do, but I can't. Either I can't wrap my head around the concept of God much like others can't understand quantum mechanics, or I see all the evidence in front of me and write them off as something else. I just don't see it.Nothing in life as really led me to how I am today. No grand event, no sorrowful death. I used to me Catholic, used to pray, but then I fell out of it as I never saw my prayers affect anything. While I remained a believer in Santa (He continued to give me presents, how could I doubt his existence?), God just felt like he wasn't there for me. I began to question things, and all the answers took me steps away from him. By the time I was in High School, I no longer cared about him, and told my mother I don't believe in him as she forced me through confirmation.At this point, I don't think I had any hint of an atheist in me. Sure, there might have been a god, but I couldn't exactly disprove him, so I did the immature "whatever" and moved on with my life...until I moved from Boston to Florida and was exposed to Christianity more than ever before. I felt like I had to make a stand and choose, not sit on a fence all day. I seeked people of all creeds and debated time and time again. Their words never brought me closer to God, only further away and into atheism. And so I'm here, continuing my search if I might be wrong.I would like to try something new this time though. In all the debates before, the Bible has always come up. I've read it, albeit not the whole thing, but a considerable chunk of it. In fact, the spine is in rather poor shape. When I've read the Bible, I found so many despicable things that whenever I hear someone quote it, it gives me shivers knowing that's from the same book with such evil. Would it be possible if someone can help me find Him outside the Bible? Perhaps under a certain stone without quotes?I'm trying to find him, and so I'm trying something new...
I don't want to be an Atheist
- Thread starter Remagoen
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Let me try to keep this simple: are you looking for objective evidence that God exists or that the Christian God exists? I'm not sure of your aim here.Secondly, referring to anything as evil from an "agnostic atheist" point of view does not make sense. It may not fit your preferences, but since all matters of good and evil are subjective to such a position as yours, your judgment lacks and value.Thirdly, what do you think is evil in the Bible?
"I've chosen to disbelieve from what evidence has been provided to me"That's prophesied in the very first chapter of the Bible, you read it but you don't understand (even this is also prophesied in the Bible).We as humans gradually lose our sense of God's existence, we gradually become more and more scientific, we need all kinds of material evidence to help us to judge correctly, we don't want what's said in the Bible.This is actually the Adam and Eve parable,We rely more and more on the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to judge, while we failed to see the tree of life. We refuse anything outside the Tree of Knowledge, the Tree of Knowledge is the only way of thinking we can accept, not even the Word of God is acceptable, that's why we ate the apple even when God told us not to........Now what God says through the Bible (Bible = Word of God which Adam chose to ignore).You need faith, instead of any material evidence of any form, while you are (Adam) given the second chance to choose between 1) you intelligent demanding of physical evidence, 2) listen to what God says (thus Word of God).See that? We are the cursed (if you are willing to speculate). We are the more cursed if we insist (just like Adam did) on choosing the opposite to what God wishes us to choose. I do think that this time He demands us to choose "Faith" instead of "Evidence of proof".
To Pyros,("Ek Pyros")
Let me try to keep this simple: are you looking for objective evidence that God exists or that the Christian God exists? I'm not sure of your aim here.
Sorry, I didn't specify. I'm hoping to find "a god". I figure smaller steps would be easier than larger ones.("Ek Pyros")
Secondly, referring to anything as evil from an "agnostic atheist" point of view does not make sense. It may not fit your preferences, but since all matters of good and evil are subjective to such a position as yours, your judgment lacks and value.Thirdly, what do you think is evil in the Bible?
You're right. To me, good and evil are subjective, and I won't argue about it. It's just things I've seen that feel totally wrong to me, and thus I call them evil. There was a time when I had no concept of G&E as you just said, but there are certain things in this world where "bad" isn't proper enough a word, like genocides, and so I label them evil.As for which part is evil, I really don't want to get into a Bible debate, it's not why I'm here. I shouldn't have even brought it up, I'm sorry. To Hawkins,Like I said, the more you talk about the Bible, the more I'll shrink away. I don't believe in Adam and Eve's existence, and so how would I believe any prophecy about them? I think that if I can find God outside the Bible, I can find him inside the Bible.You do bring up faith, though, and I think I can talk about that as it can be used outside the Bible. I don't have faith, through and through. I have trust that if I drop a plate, the Theory of Gravity will prove true and I'll hurt my toe. I trust that if I scream and yell at one of my friends, they might not be my friend any more. I base my trust in past experience, using my intelligence to think "If I do this, what would happen" and then contemplate an answer. Faith is totally blind and I like seeing. If I can't see, touch, hear, smell, taste it, I have a hard time believing it. If I could sense God, even for a bit, in a way I know it's Him, I would kneel immediately and worship him.
Let me try to keep this simple: are you looking for objective evidence that God exists or that the Christian God exists? I'm not sure of your aim here.
Sorry, I didn't specify. I'm hoping to find "a god". I figure smaller steps would be easier than larger ones.("Ek Pyros")
Secondly, referring to anything as evil from an "agnostic atheist" point of view does not make sense. It may not fit your preferences, but since all matters of good and evil are subjective to such a position as yours, your judgment lacks and value.Thirdly, what do you think is evil in the Bible?
You're right. To me, good and evil are subjective, and I won't argue about it. It's just things I've seen that feel totally wrong to me, and thus I call them evil. There was a time when I had no concept of G&E as you just said, but there are certain things in this world where "bad" isn't proper enough a word, like genocides, and so I label them evil.As for which part is evil, I really don't want to get into a Bible debate, it's not why I'm here. I shouldn't have even brought it up, I'm sorry. To Hawkins,Like I said, the more you talk about the Bible, the more I'll shrink away. I don't believe in Adam and Eve's existence, and so how would I believe any prophecy about them? I think that if I can find God outside the Bible, I can find him inside the Bible.You do bring up faith, though, and I think I can talk about that as it can be used outside the Bible. I don't have faith, through and through. I have trust that if I drop a plate, the Theory of Gravity will prove true and I'll hurt my toe. I trust that if I scream and yell at one of my friends, they might not be my friend any more. I base my trust in past experience, using my intelligence to think "If I do this, what would happen" and then contemplate an answer. Faith is totally blind and I like seeing. If I can't see, touch, hear, smell, taste it, I have a hard time believing it. If I could sense God, even for a bit, in a way I know it's Him, I would kneel immediately and worship him.
Hi Remagoen,This is going to sound really silly, being one atheist talking to another about faith
You said: "If I can't see, touch, hear, smell, taste it, I have a hard time believing it." This is not actually true. For example, do you believe that Japan exists? Have you been there to explicitly experience it in order to believe it? We believe many things that we have never seen, touched, smelt or tasted, yet our belief is total conviction. Based on what? Circumstantial evidence! You have seen pictures of Japan, TV, met people who claim to come from there, etc. You believe simply on the evidence.God can be the same. The issue is rather harsh to accept, but I really think it is a question of how much one really wants to find out. And I mean really! The evidence around is overwhelming. Did all of space and the material universe simply appear by accident? Did life begin by accident? Did this accidental life accidentally also have the mechanism to reproduce itself? Did this accidently created life with an accidental reproduction mechanism also have an accidental life force that drove it to survive even against all odds? Do your emotions of love, compassion, empathy, guilt, sorrow, hate, all stem purely from chemical reactions in your brain, along with your appreciation of beauty, ugliness, music, colour, art? What do you see when you look into someone else's eyes?The list goes on and on.Of course it could all just be an accident......but which, on balance is the most overwhelming circumstantial evidence? Its enough to convince you Japan exists, why should God be different? You could go and visit Japan for yourself, you could study the bible and pray - it all comes down to how much one really wants to find out.I guess, as a non-believer, I just wrote my own epitaph
(kalixx)
You said: "If I can't see, touch, hear, smell, taste it, I have a hard time believing it." This is not actually true. For example, do you believe that Japan exists? Have you been there to explicitly experience it in order to believe it? We believe many things that we have never seen, touched, smelt or tasted, yet our belief is total conviction. Based on what? Circumstantial evidence! You have seen pictures of Japan, TV, met people who claim to come from there, etc. You believe simply on the evidence.
Japan and God are so very different. At any moment (provided I have the money, of course) I can purchase a plane ticket and see Japan for myself. Because I choose not to do that, however, I can look at those bits of evidence: Satellite photos, TV, former residents or visitors. People, of course, could be mistaken, but they are easy to believe when you have the pictures and especially the availability to travel to Japan.God, on the other hand, has no ticket to travel to see him. You have to believe in him solely on faith, which you don't have to do with Japan. So the evidence is not circumstantial. If this argument was in court, the judge could easily say, "Get me a ticket", travel there, and the proof is right under his feet, no longer circumstantial.(kalixx)
God can be the same. The issue is rather harsh to accept, but I really think it is a question of how much one really wants to find out. And I mean really!
As said above, it's not the same. This is probably why you're an atheist: You probably don't believe this.(kalixx)
The evidence around is overwhelming. Did all of space and the material universe simply appear by accident? Did life begin by accident? Did this accidental life accidentally also have the mechanism to reproduce itself? Did this accidently created life with an accidental reproduction mechanism also have an accidental life force that drove it to survive even against all odds? Do your emotions of love, compassion, empathy, guilt, sorrow, hate, all stem purely from chemical reactions in your brain, along with your appreciation of beauty, ugliness, music, colour, art? What do you see when you look into someone else's eyes?
I don't know where life came from at the absolute beginning. I'm not afraid to admit it. But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"?I do believe that my emotions are indeed chemical reactions, yes. It has been proven several times in labs, and had I the equipment and technical knowhow, I could duplicate it myself.What do I see when I look into someone's eyes? I'm not being funny when I answer that: Their retina. I don't see a soul, I don't see the emotions of the person (unless I'm looking at body language), I don't see anything but the eye.(kalixx)
Of course it could all just be an accident......but which, on balance is the most overwhelming circumstantial evidence? Its enough to convince you Japan exists, why should God be different? You could go and visit Japan for yourself, you could study the bible and pray - it all comes down to how much one really wants to find out.
It could be an accident, yes, but I'm not asserting anything, you are. You need to show proof, not I. That's why I'm here. I could go to the Bible, yes, but i found too many inconsistencies, evils, and flat out wrongs in it. That why I'm looking for evidence outside the Bible. Prayer, in the past, has never worked for me. I found that getting off my knees and working through the issue with my own hands settled more than enough minor issues. Praying to God to pour me a glass of OJ because I'm too sick to do it myself (when I was a kid I had an immune deficiency and this actually happened) never worked, and I had to vomit my way over to the fridge to do it myself.
You said: "If I can't see, touch, hear, smell, taste it, I have a hard time believing it." This is not actually true. For example, do you believe that Japan exists? Have you been there to explicitly experience it in order to believe it? We believe many things that we have never seen, touched, smelt or tasted, yet our belief is total conviction. Based on what? Circumstantial evidence! You have seen pictures of Japan, TV, met people who claim to come from there, etc. You believe simply on the evidence.
Japan and God are so very different. At any moment (provided I have the money, of course) I can purchase a plane ticket and see Japan for myself. Because I choose not to do that, however, I can look at those bits of evidence: Satellite photos, TV, former residents or visitors. People, of course, could be mistaken, but they are easy to believe when you have the pictures and especially the availability to travel to Japan.God, on the other hand, has no ticket to travel to see him. You have to believe in him solely on faith, which you don't have to do with Japan. So the evidence is not circumstantial. If this argument was in court, the judge could easily say, "Get me a ticket", travel there, and the proof is right under his feet, no longer circumstantial.(kalixx)
God can be the same. The issue is rather harsh to accept, but I really think it is a question of how much one really wants to find out. And I mean really!
As said above, it's not the same. This is probably why you're an atheist: You probably don't believe this.(kalixx)
The evidence around is overwhelming. Did all of space and the material universe simply appear by accident? Did life begin by accident? Did this accidental life accidentally also have the mechanism to reproduce itself? Did this accidently created life with an accidental reproduction mechanism also have an accidental life force that drove it to survive even against all odds? Do your emotions of love, compassion, empathy, guilt, sorrow, hate, all stem purely from chemical reactions in your brain, along with your appreciation of beauty, ugliness, music, colour, art? What do you see when you look into someone else's eyes?
I don't know where life came from at the absolute beginning. I'm not afraid to admit it. But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"?I do believe that my emotions are indeed chemical reactions, yes. It has been proven several times in labs, and had I the equipment and technical knowhow, I could duplicate it myself.What do I see when I look into someone's eyes? I'm not being funny when I answer that: Their retina. I don't see a soul, I don't see the emotions of the person (unless I'm looking at body language), I don't see anything but the eye.(kalixx)
Of course it could all just be an accident......but which, on balance is the most overwhelming circumstantial evidence? Its enough to convince you Japan exists, why should God be different? You could go and visit Japan for yourself, you could study the bible and pray - it all comes down to how much one really wants to find out.
It could be an accident, yes, but I'm not asserting anything, you are. You need to show proof, not I. That's why I'm here. I could go to the Bible, yes, but i found too many inconsistencies, evils, and flat out wrongs in it. That why I'm looking for evidence outside the Bible. Prayer, in the past, has never worked for me. I found that getting off my knees and working through the issue with my own hands settled more than enough minor issues. Praying to God to pour me a glass of OJ because I'm too sick to do it myself (when I was a kid I had an immune deficiency and this actually happened) never worked, and I had to vomit my way over to the fridge to do it myself.
Japan and God are so very different. At any moment (provided I have the money, of course) I can purchase a plane ticket and see Japan for myself. Because I choose not to do that, however, I can look at those bits of evidence: Satellite photos, TV, former residents or visitors. People, of course, could be mistaken, but they are easy to believe when you have the pictures and especially the availability to travel to Japan.
Actually, they are not so very different. The equivalent of your "Satellite photos, TV, former residents or visitors" is the testimonies, writings and experiences of other people who have found God. For example, you could, if you were really interested, study the evidence of healings and miracles - or you could take this all as evidence without having to check them out. And in thesame way you can fly to Japan you can take a spiritual journey to God (not so easy, granted, I got to the destination but it was empty for me).
That why I'm looking for evidence outside the Bible.
The key word here is "evidence". You won't find anything other than evidence because humankind has been looking for "proof" ever since they could think. Any evidence is inevitably limited by being laced with doubt and alternative explanation. Otherwise it would not be evidence. As in your court, the verdict is based on the weight of the evidence. But there is a difference between setting out to find evidence in order to disprove it and seeking genuine evidence of a real possibility.Surely it is better to set out on the journey and see what comes one's way than to sit at home and discount all the reason for stepping out the door, eh?
Actually, they are not so very different. The equivalent of your "Satellite photos, TV, former residents or visitors" is the testimonies, writings and experiences of other people who have found God. For example, you could, if you were really interested, study the evidence of healings and miracles - or you could take this all as evidence without having to check them out. And in thesame way you can fly to Japan you can take a spiritual journey to God (not so easy, granted, I got to the destination but it was empty for me).
That why I'm looking for evidence outside the Bible.
The key word here is "evidence". You won't find anything other than evidence because humankind has been looking for "proof" ever since they could think. Any evidence is inevitably limited by being laced with doubt and alternative explanation. Otherwise it would not be evidence. As in your court, the verdict is based on the weight of the evidence. But there is a difference between setting out to find evidence in order to disprove it and seeking genuine evidence of a real possibility.Surely it is better to set out on the journey and see what comes one's way than to sit at home and discount all the reason for stepping out the door, eh?
(kalixx)
Actually, they are not so very different. The equivalent of your "Satellite photos, TV, former residents or visitors" is the testimonies, writings and experiences of other people who have found God. For example, you could, if you were really interested, study the evidence of healings and miracles - or you could take this all as evidence without having to check them out. And in thesame way you can fly to Japan you can take a spiritual journey to God (not so easy, granted, I got to the destination but it was empty for me).
No, they are different. Sure, the photos can be doctored, the TV a stage, and the people insane, but it still doesn't discount me actually going there. That is one thing that God doesn't have going for him until you die, which is when it's too late. Taking a "spiritual journey" is vastly different from buying a plane ticket. For instance, let's change the location from Japan to Mecca. "Does it exist", you ask? Let's go! We buy a plane ticket, go to the middle east, do a little driving, little walking, and we're there. We see the site, and so the answer is yes. But does that prove Allah? No. That involves so many more questions, and so much more than a plane ticket because it deals with the super natural. (kalixx)
The key word here is "evidence". You won't find anything other than evidence because humankind has been looking for "proof" ever since they could think. Any evidence is inevitably limited by being laced with doubt and alternative explanation. Otherwise it would not be evidence. As in your court, the verdict is based on the weight of the evidence. But there is a difference between setting out to find evidence in order to disprove it and seeking genuine evidence of a real possibility.Surely it is better to set out on the journey and see what comes one's way than to sit at home and discount all the reason for stepping out the door, eh?
Yes, the keyword is evidence, and evidence can turn into proof once it passes the test of skepticism, ridding it of doubt and alternative explanation. It should always be met with a careful eye or else you'll have people running about with evidence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. If it fails that test, it is no longer evidence nor is it proof, but something else for which I forgot the word to.I look for evidence, I want to believe. But I'm of the mindset that I shouldn't believe things lightly, or I just might turn into a Scientologist (they have "evidence").I do like your last point though. Very good philosophy.You also didn't address my question:
But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"?
Actually, they are not so very different. The equivalent of your "Satellite photos, TV, former residents or visitors" is the testimonies, writings and experiences of other people who have found God. For example, you could, if you were really interested, study the evidence of healings and miracles - or you could take this all as evidence without having to check them out. And in thesame way you can fly to Japan you can take a spiritual journey to God (not so easy, granted, I got to the destination but it was empty for me).
No, they are different. Sure, the photos can be doctored, the TV a stage, and the people insane, but it still doesn't discount me actually going there. That is one thing that God doesn't have going for him until you die, which is when it's too late. Taking a "spiritual journey" is vastly different from buying a plane ticket. For instance, let's change the location from Japan to Mecca. "Does it exist", you ask? Let's go! We buy a plane ticket, go to the middle east, do a little driving, little walking, and we're there. We see the site, and so the answer is yes. But does that prove Allah? No. That involves so many more questions, and so much more than a plane ticket because it deals with the super natural. (kalixx)
The key word here is "evidence". You won't find anything other than evidence because humankind has been looking for "proof" ever since they could think. Any evidence is inevitably limited by being laced with doubt and alternative explanation. Otherwise it would not be evidence. As in your court, the verdict is based on the weight of the evidence. But there is a difference between setting out to find evidence in order to disprove it and seeking genuine evidence of a real possibility.Surely it is better to set out on the journey and see what comes one's way than to sit at home and discount all the reason for stepping out the door, eh?
Yes, the keyword is evidence, and evidence can turn into proof once it passes the test of skepticism, ridding it of doubt and alternative explanation. It should always be met with a careful eye or else you'll have people running about with evidence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. If it fails that test, it is no longer evidence nor is it proof, but something else for which I forgot the word to.I look for evidence, I want to believe. But I'm of the mindset that I shouldn't believe things lightly, or I just might turn into a Scientologist (they have "evidence").I do like your last point though. Very good philosophy.You also didn't address my question:
But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"?
Well, to search for God you have to be sincere... in that you must drop all of your agendas to find Him... I really think this is key... why do you want to find Him? Is it for His benefit or your own- because often times I think people have misconceptions or preconceptions about what God "is" or how He should "present" Himself... but to just say to Him... "You're there, I want to believe in You, allow me to see, work with me"... and then trying to listen... and this might take a while, you know, not because God doesn't want to reveal Himself to you but because sometimes when we say this to God, we really do have other agendas. I did this forever...I grew up in a Baptist Church and went to a Private School and then after high school i was a Youth leader... and all the while I was questioning the very existence of God, He really felt dead to me and I wondered how I could have been involved with the church for so long and gotten to the point where I thought that God was dead! Meanhile, I was often doing whatever I could to have a good time because this is what I thought I needed to do- I really thought that if I didn't do this than my life would not be good enough- I mean this idea is straight out of Dazed and Confused... lol... you know, the usual whatevers like drinking a ton... etc. Anyway what I am saying is that I thought I knew so much about Christianity and Jesus Christ and who God was, but if I knew all this stuff why did I feel horrible all the time, and have no confidence or knowledge of Truth, and why did I question all of my beliefs? To answer this, because every time I talked to God, or looked for Him, really my intent was for Him to change my life according to what I wanted... there were times when I wanted to do what God wanted... to be a "good christian" like what I was supposed to be doing- I mean I was a Youth Leader for goodness sake! But then it was only a fleeting thing and I never followed through.So, one good point: you must follow through. If you truly want to find God, you must follow through with finding Him. You have to let go of your personal ideas about how or when or why He should reveal Himself to you, in the sense that it is up to Him. You leave everything up to Him and You are honest with Him.This is the second point: I was never honest with God! I mean, I confessed, but it wasn't totally honest confession because I always felt guilty about even having to confess and I knew that I was going to do the same thing again... so really "confessing" wasn't honest because I already knew that I would re-commit. But then I got to a point where I had to be honest, because I couldn't half-confess to God anymore and because I was so tired of living a life that was horrible... full of pain, and it hardly ever went the way I wanted it to be anyway (I was/and still can be a real control freak).. and because I knew a life with God would be better than a life against Him. When I say confessing what I mean is honesty- talk to God like He is a stuffed animal who will hold all your secrets and not tell a soul- because He won't, but also talk to Him with reverence because He's God. This doesn't mean you shouldn't wonder, because God knows that people wonder about His existence, but I mean... to say to God "You're a joke, but reveal yourself anyway" is really not being honest.Third point- God is not an idiot... if He is God than He already knows it all, right? So it's okay to ask questions and be confused. He would rather that you told Him and looked to Him than to wikipedia anyway....Ummm. fourth point- you have to weigh your options. Do you really want to give up the life you have if you find God? Because this goes along with the whole honesty thing. Are you really prepared to find God? Or is life fine without Him? What is driving you? A lot of people shrug it off... until something bad happens then they really want God to help them. But others honestly want a change and God listens to those who aren't trying to manipulate Him. Before, I didn't really want my life to change enough to really do something about it...Fifth point- God is God. What I mean by this is that you might have to accept that there are a lot of things that you don't understand about Him and that your viewpoint might change... mine certainly did... especially about men and how they treat women... and I always felt kind of mad when I thought of God as male because I thought it put down women... lol.. but what I mean is that maybe instead of saying "How could God do horrible things, allow suffering and babies and death and taxes"... maybe you just don't understand yet how He works... and so you have to be open to change. Open to ideas. And... open to others. By this I mean that when others really talk to you, like I am doing now, don't just wait for your turn to speak again, but listen to what they say to you! I have had to learn to do this because before I was all into arguing about politics... and I thought I was a lot smarter than a lot people and that half the country was idiots dependent on the way they voted... lol... Another point.. I lost count... don't let yourself be too easily persuaded one way or another. You are a smart, rational human being. You have a mind. Use it. Don't buy into crazy ideas too quickly, and don't join ranks with the mudslingers either- because this will blind you, this will stop you in your tracks.... please note that I am not trying to force you to agree with me either. Nobody forced me to agree with them. I did it all on my own...So, these are some points to find God. Take them or leave them but if you truly search with an open heart and mind, if you really want to find God, if you search for wisdom, real wisdom and truth rather than what you may think or be told is real wisdom and truth... if you believe that it can be found and you drop your agendas.. God is waiting to be found. Don't limit yourself with a time-frame, either, because you're working on His not yours anyway.I hope this helps you... but remember that it never stops. You can't just find God and be done with it... because God and Jesus Christ are one, and they will completely change your life and knock your socks clear off and over to Russia. And you will love it! All Praise be to God!!!And by the way, if you are all the way down here to the bottom and you read all that I wrote, because I wrote a lot, I didn't use the Bible because you requested that answers don't use the Bible... well I can relate with what you are saying about it. It used to REALLY turn me off- especially the Old Testament- and I felt like it, too, was dead....... but not anymore.. hahaha!
forgivenWretch
New Member
I don't want to be an Atheist
then open your heart and your mind, and make the choice not to be. You are what you choose to be.
then open your heart and your mind, and make the choice not to be. You are what you choose to be.
(stlizzy;36985)
Well, to search for God you have to be sincere... in that you must drop all of your agendas to find Him... I really think this is key... why do you want to find Him? Is it for His benefit or your own- because often times I think people have misconceptions or preconceptions about what God "is" or how He should "present" Himself... but to just say to Him... "You're there, I want to believe in You, allow me to see, work with me"... and then trying to listen... and this might take a while, you know, not because God doesn't want to reveal Himself to you but because sometimes when we say this to God, we really do have other agendas. I did this forever...I grew up in a Baptist Church and went to a Private School and then after high school i was a Youth leader... and all the while I was questioning the very existence of God, He really felt dead to me and I wondered how I could have been involved with the church for so long and gotten to the point where I thought that God was dead! Meanhile, I was often doing whatever I could to have a good time because this is what I thought I needed to do- I really thought that if I didn't do this than my life would not be good enough- I mean this idea is straight out of Dazed and Confused... lol... you know, the usual whatevers like drinking a ton... etc. Anyway what I am saying is that I thought I knew so much about Christianity and Jesus Christ and who God was, but if I knew all this stuff why did I feel horrible all the time, and have no confidence or knowledge of Truth, and why did I question all of my beliefs? To answer this, because every time I talked to God, or looked for Him, really my intent was for Him to change my life according to what I wanted... there were times when I wanted to do what God wanted... to be a "good christian" like what I was supposed to be doing- I mean I was a Youth Leader for goodness sake! But then it was only a fleeting thing and I never followed through.So, one good point: you must follow through. If you truly want to find God, you must follow through with finding Him. You have to let go of your personal ideas about how or when or why He should reveal Himself to you, in the sense that it is up to Him. You leave everything up to Him and You are honest with Him.This is the second point: I was never honest with God! I mean, I confessed, but it wasn't totally honest confession because I always felt guilty about even having to confess and I knew that I was going to do the same thing again... so really "confessing" wasn't honest because I already knew that I would re-commit. But then I got to a point where I had to be honest, because I couldn't half-confess to God anymore and because I was so tired of living a life that was horrible... full of pain, and it hardly ever went the way I wanted it to be anyway (I was/and still can be a real control freak).. and because I knew a life with God would be better than a life against Him. When I say confessing what I mean is honesty- talk to God like He is a stuffed animal who will hold all your secrets and not tell a soul- because He won't, but also talk to Him with reverence because He's God. This doesn't mean you shouldn't wonder, because God knows that people wonder about His existence, but I mean... to say to God "You're a joke, but reveal yourself anyway" is really not being honest.Third point- God is not an idiot... if He is God than He already knows it all, right? So it's okay to ask questions and be confused. He would rather that you told Him and looked to Him than to wikipedia anyway....Ummm. fourth point- you have to weigh your options. Do you really want to give up the life you have if you find God? Because this goes along with the whole honesty thing. Are you really prepared to find God? Or is life fine without Him? What is driving you? A lot of people shrug it off... until something bad happens then they really want God to help them. But others honestly want a change and God listens to those who aren't trying to manipulate Him. Before, I didn't really want my life to change enough to really do something about it...Fifth point- God is God. What I mean by this is that you might have to accept that there are a lot of things that you don't understand about Him and that your viewpoint might change... mine certainly did... especially about men and how they treat women... and I always felt kind of mad when I thought of God as male because I thought it put down women... lol.. but what I mean is that maybe instead of saying "How could God do horrible things, allow suffering and babies and death and taxes"... maybe you just don't understand yet how He works... and so you have to be open to change. Open to ideas. And... open to others. By this I mean that when others really talk to you, like I am doing now, don't just wait for your turn to speak again, but listen to what they say to you! I have had to learn to do this because before I was all into arguing about politics... and I thought I was a lot smarter than a lot people and that half the country was idiots dependent on the way they voted... lol... Another point.. I lost count... don't let yourself be too easily persuaded one way or another. You are a smart, rational human being. You have a mind. Use it. Don't buy into crazy ideas too quickly, and don't join ranks with the mudslingers either- because this will blind you, this will stop you in your tracks.... please note that I am not trying to force you to agree with me either. Nobody forced me to agree with them. I did it all on my own...So, these are some points to find God. Take them or leave them but if you truly search with an open heart and mind, if you really want to find God, if you search for wisdom, real wisdom and truth rather than what you may think or be told is real wisdom and truth... if you believe that it can be found and you drop your agendas.. God is waiting to be found. Don't limit yourself with a time-frame, either, because you're working on His not yours anyway.I hope this helps you... but remember that it never stops. You can't just find God and be done with it... because God and Jesus Christ are one, and they will completely change your life and knock your socks clear off and over to Russia. And you will love it! All Praise be to God!!!And by the way, if you are all the way down here to the bottom and you read all that I wrote, because I wrote a lot, I didn't use the Bible because you requested that answers don't use the Bible... well I can relate with what you are saying about it. It used to REALLY turn me off- especially the Old Testament- and I felt like it, too, was dead....... but not anymore.. hahaha!
Wow, stlizzy, thank you for this. I really hit home with me. Maybe I am searching for God with my own agenda. I had never really thought about that before. Thank you for sharing thoughts on this!Squeak
Well, to search for God you have to be sincere... in that you must drop all of your agendas to find Him... I really think this is key... why do you want to find Him? Is it for His benefit or your own- because often times I think people have misconceptions or preconceptions about what God "is" or how He should "present" Himself... but to just say to Him... "You're there, I want to believe in You, allow me to see, work with me"... and then trying to listen... and this might take a while, you know, not because God doesn't want to reveal Himself to you but because sometimes when we say this to God, we really do have other agendas. I did this forever...I grew up in a Baptist Church and went to a Private School and then after high school i was a Youth leader... and all the while I was questioning the very existence of God, He really felt dead to me and I wondered how I could have been involved with the church for so long and gotten to the point where I thought that God was dead! Meanhile, I was often doing whatever I could to have a good time because this is what I thought I needed to do- I really thought that if I didn't do this than my life would not be good enough- I mean this idea is straight out of Dazed and Confused... lol... you know, the usual whatevers like drinking a ton... etc. Anyway what I am saying is that I thought I knew so much about Christianity and Jesus Christ and who God was, but if I knew all this stuff why did I feel horrible all the time, and have no confidence or knowledge of Truth, and why did I question all of my beliefs? To answer this, because every time I talked to God, or looked for Him, really my intent was for Him to change my life according to what I wanted... there were times when I wanted to do what God wanted... to be a "good christian" like what I was supposed to be doing- I mean I was a Youth Leader for goodness sake! But then it was only a fleeting thing and I never followed through.So, one good point: you must follow through. If you truly want to find God, you must follow through with finding Him. You have to let go of your personal ideas about how or when or why He should reveal Himself to you, in the sense that it is up to Him. You leave everything up to Him and You are honest with Him.This is the second point: I was never honest with God! I mean, I confessed, but it wasn't totally honest confession because I always felt guilty about even having to confess and I knew that I was going to do the same thing again... so really "confessing" wasn't honest because I already knew that I would re-commit. But then I got to a point where I had to be honest, because I couldn't half-confess to God anymore and because I was so tired of living a life that was horrible... full of pain, and it hardly ever went the way I wanted it to be anyway (I was/and still can be a real control freak).. and because I knew a life with God would be better than a life against Him. When I say confessing what I mean is honesty- talk to God like He is a stuffed animal who will hold all your secrets and not tell a soul- because He won't, but also talk to Him with reverence because He's God. This doesn't mean you shouldn't wonder, because God knows that people wonder about His existence, but I mean... to say to God "You're a joke, but reveal yourself anyway" is really not being honest.Third point- God is not an idiot... if He is God than He already knows it all, right? So it's okay to ask questions and be confused. He would rather that you told Him and looked to Him than to wikipedia anyway....Ummm. fourth point- you have to weigh your options. Do you really want to give up the life you have if you find God? Because this goes along with the whole honesty thing. Are you really prepared to find God? Or is life fine without Him? What is driving you? A lot of people shrug it off... until something bad happens then they really want God to help them. But others honestly want a change and God listens to those who aren't trying to manipulate Him. Before, I didn't really want my life to change enough to really do something about it...Fifth point- God is God. What I mean by this is that you might have to accept that there are a lot of things that you don't understand about Him and that your viewpoint might change... mine certainly did... especially about men and how they treat women... and I always felt kind of mad when I thought of God as male because I thought it put down women... lol.. but what I mean is that maybe instead of saying "How could God do horrible things, allow suffering and babies and death and taxes"... maybe you just don't understand yet how He works... and so you have to be open to change. Open to ideas. And... open to others. By this I mean that when others really talk to you, like I am doing now, don't just wait for your turn to speak again, but listen to what they say to you! I have had to learn to do this because before I was all into arguing about politics... and I thought I was a lot smarter than a lot people and that half the country was idiots dependent on the way they voted... lol... Another point.. I lost count... don't let yourself be too easily persuaded one way or another. You are a smart, rational human being. You have a mind. Use it. Don't buy into crazy ideas too quickly, and don't join ranks with the mudslingers either- because this will blind you, this will stop you in your tracks.... please note that I am not trying to force you to agree with me either. Nobody forced me to agree with them. I did it all on my own...So, these are some points to find God. Take them or leave them but if you truly search with an open heart and mind, if you really want to find God, if you search for wisdom, real wisdom and truth rather than what you may think or be told is real wisdom and truth... if you believe that it can be found and you drop your agendas.. God is waiting to be found. Don't limit yourself with a time-frame, either, because you're working on His not yours anyway.I hope this helps you... but remember that it never stops. You can't just find God and be done with it... because God and Jesus Christ are one, and they will completely change your life and knock your socks clear off and over to Russia. And you will love it! All Praise be to God!!!And by the way, if you are all the way down here to the bottom and you read all that I wrote, because I wrote a lot, I didn't use the Bible because you requested that answers don't use the Bible... well I can relate with what you are saying about it. It used to REALLY turn me off- especially the Old Testament- and I felt like it, too, was dead....... but not anymore.. hahaha!
Wow, stlizzy, thank you for this. I really hit home with me. Maybe I am searching for God with my own agenda. I had never really thought about that before. Thank you for sharing thoughts on this!Squeak
To stlizzy,(stlizzy)
Well, to search for God you have to be sincere... in that you must drop all of your agendas to find Him... I really think this is key... why do you want to find Him? Is it for His benefit or your own- because often times I think people have misconceptions or preconceptions about what God "is" or how He should "present" Himself... but to just say to Him... "You're there, I want to believe in You, allow me to see, work with me"... and then trying to listen... and this might take a while, you know, not because God doesn't want to reveal Himself to you but because sometimes when we say this to God, we really do have other agendas. I did this forever...
This is another thing I can relay to pray as I stand on it now. People ask me to pray for them, and I refuse to. It's not that I don't want to help, not that I don't feel empathy, it's that I feel, honestly, like prayers don't work. And if I do speak a prayer, all my words would be hollow, perhaps even insincere. To me, that like telling a lie, something which I refuse to do except in certain situations (e.g., where lying would save a life).(stlizzy)
So, one good point: you must follow through. If you truly want to find God, you must follow through with finding Him. You have to let go of your personal ideas about how or when or why He should reveal Himself to you, in the sense that it is up to Him. You leave everything up to Him and You are honest with Him.
This is a good point, and could easily expand to anything outside of God. About letting go of your personal ideas, it's very Yoda-like: "Unlearn what you have learned." It's...difficult, to say the least, and I try to allow my mind to wrap around it, but...yeah. I hope for a "booming voice from the sky". I put that in quotes because I use it very loosely. Sure, a booming voice would certainly help, but I mean that I'd like something to happen to me that is completely undeniable. A miracle, essentially, and I don't think I've ever seen one.On a slightly side note, though, are you saying, in other words, "stop looking for him"? Kind of like that saying where if you look so hard for something, you'll never find it, but as soon as you stop...?(stlizzy)
This is the second point: I was never honest with God! I mean, I confessed, but it wasn't totally honest confession because I always felt guilty about even having to confess and I knew that I was going to do the same thing again... so really "confessing" wasn't honest because I already knew that I would re-commit. But then I got to a point where I had to be honest, because I couldn't half-confess to God anymore and because I was so tired of living a life that was horrible... full of pain, and it hardly ever went the way I wanted it to be anyway (I was/and still can be a real control freak).. and because I knew a life with God would be better than a life against Him. When I say confessing what I mean is honesty- talk to God like He is a stuffed animal who will hold all your secrets and not tell a soul- because He won't, but also talk to Him with reverence because He's God. This doesn't mean you shouldn't wonder, because God knows that people wonder about His existence, but I mean... to say to God "You're a joke, but reveal yourself anyway" is really not being honest.
Honesty is something I have pride in. I don't think as many people as I can be so brutally honest with other people. For years, I was a liar, and it got to a point where I didn't really know who I really was any more. Almost immediately, I changed my ways. Life became so much simpler... If I say something I mean it--unless I'm joking around (you'll know when I am), or when I'm lying to protect someone.This brings me back to why I refuse to pray. I don't feel like I'm being honest to who I'm praying about, nor myself, nor God (whether or not he exists).(stlizzy)
Third point- God is not an idiot... if He is God than He already knows it all, right? So it's okay to ask questions and be confused. He would rather that you told Him and looked to Him than to wikipedia anyway....
I understand your point, and it looks to me that you are telling me to pray to him. I can't for reasons I stated above.(stlizzy)
Ummm. fourth point- you have to weigh your options. Do you really want to give up the life you have if you find God? Because this goes along with the whole honesty thing. Are you really prepared to find God? Or is life fine without Him? What is driving you? A lot of people shrug it off... until something bad happens then they really want God to help them. But others honestly want a change and God listens to those who aren't trying to manipulate Him. Before, I didn't really want my life to change enough to really do something about it...
This is a point I've never really considered, I'll admit. I think it's been in the back of my mind silently, but not because I've been avoiding it, only becuase I don't think I ever consciously thought of it. To a point, I'll have to say no. It's not that I'm actively doing bad things: I try to live an honest life, I try to help those around me, donate, be dependable, and have a little fun. Fun, of course, is semi-conservative. I'm not a wild person, and the most extreme things I do are paintball (it's FUN!) and martial arts (good social support, great for working out, and I learn to defend myself). Other than that, while I have a bit of an anger management problem, I'm well underway of fixing it, and it's NEVER come to the point of harming anyone or thing (though let's forget about the wall a year ago, shall we?)In other words, I think I'm a rather decent, average guy. Would I have to give these up? I don't think so. It would be hard to multi task, I would imagine, but time could definitely be found.(stlizzy)
Fifth point- God is God. What I mean by this is that you might have to accept that there are a lot of things that you don't understand about Him and that your viewpoint might change... mine certainly did... especially about men and how they treat women... and I always felt kind of mad when I thought of God as male because I thought it put down women... lol.. but what I mean is that maybe instead of saying "How could God do horrible things, allow suffering and babies and death and taxes"... maybe you just don't understand yet how He works... and so you have to be open to change. Open to ideas. And... open to others. By this I mean that when others really talk to you, like I am doing now, don't just wait for your turn to speak again, but listen to what they say to you! I have had to learn to do this because before I was all into arguing about politics... and I thought I was a lot smarter than a lot people and that half the country was idiots dependent on the way they voted... lol...
For what I say next, please don't think I didn't read what you said: Women, without any special considerations, are equal to men. While men might be naturally physically stronger, that doesn't make them better. It's just like that guy down the street do juggles perfectly, does that make him better? Nope, only better at a certain task. I cannot worship (I can believe in one, however) a God who thinks otherwise. Just as I can't worship a God who murders, or supports murdering. Killing in any form is wrong. This is treading into a Bible debate, though, and not my objective, but I did think your point was worth a response. I did want to point out though that I could still believe in him, it's just at that point it's a question of will I worship. I'll ask that question when I get there.(stlizzy)
Another point.. I lost count... don't let yourself be too easily persuaded one way or another. You are a smart, rational human being. You have a mind. Use it. Don't buy into crazy ideas too quickly, and don't join ranks with the mudslingers either- because this will blind you, this will stop you in your tracks.... please note that I am not trying to force you to agree with me either. Nobody forced me to agree with them. I did it all on my own...
Haha. We all lose count eventually...Thank you, tenfold, for that warning though. I've seen the...well... Is there a word for what Scientology does to people? It's beyond brainwashing! I'd stand beside a Christian or Muslim any day to protest against them! In fact, if I had known about it before had, I would have went to downtown Orlando to take part in the protests there against the cult. Pagans, while harmless, are silly, and so I'd never believe in that either. Nor astrology (though my mother would have you believe other wise as she doesn't know the difference between that and astronomy...). There are other faiths that seem sensible to me, however, like Islam, Buddhism, ...Christianity.Thank you, though, thank you.(stlizzy)
And by the way, if you are all the way down here to the bottom and you read all that I wrote, because I wrote a lot, I didn't use the Bible because you requested that answers don't use the Bible... well I can relate with what you are saying about it. It used to REALLY turn me off- especially the Old Testament- and I felt like it, too, was dead....... but not anymore.. hahaha!
And I thank you! It didn't go unnoticed, and I definitely feel you are someone whom I can have a chat with without fear of it becoming stagnant nor barbaric. To forgivenWretch,(forgivenWretch)
then open your heart and your mind, and make the choice not to be. You are what you choose to be.
This is the least helpful comment I've received here, nor is it respectful. Instead of reading what I, or anyone for that matter, wrote, you quote the title, say a little "take the red pill" blurb, and expect everything to make sense to me. Thank you very much for showing me the light in such a beautiful way. Stlizzy should take lessons from you.
Well, to search for God you have to be sincere... in that you must drop all of your agendas to find Him... I really think this is key... why do you want to find Him? Is it for His benefit or your own- because often times I think people have misconceptions or preconceptions about what God "is" or how He should "present" Himself... but to just say to Him... "You're there, I want to believe in You, allow me to see, work with me"... and then trying to listen... and this might take a while, you know, not because God doesn't want to reveal Himself to you but because sometimes when we say this to God, we really do have other agendas. I did this forever...
This is another thing I can relay to pray as I stand on it now. People ask me to pray for them, and I refuse to. It's not that I don't want to help, not that I don't feel empathy, it's that I feel, honestly, like prayers don't work. And if I do speak a prayer, all my words would be hollow, perhaps even insincere. To me, that like telling a lie, something which I refuse to do except in certain situations (e.g., where lying would save a life).(stlizzy)
So, one good point: you must follow through. If you truly want to find God, you must follow through with finding Him. You have to let go of your personal ideas about how or when or why He should reveal Himself to you, in the sense that it is up to Him. You leave everything up to Him and You are honest with Him.
This is a good point, and could easily expand to anything outside of God. About letting go of your personal ideas, it's very Yoda-like: "Unlearn what you have learned." It's...difficult, to say the least, and I try to allow my mind to wrap around it, but...yeah. I hope for a "booming voice from the sky". I put that in quotes because I use it very loosely. Sure, a booming voice would certainly help, but I mean that I'd like something to happen to me that is completely undeniable. A miracle, essentially, and I don't think I've ever seen one.On a slightly side note, though, are you saying, in other words, "stop looking for him"? Kind of like that saying where if you look so hard for something, you'll never find it, but as soon as you stop...?(stlizzy)
This is the second point: I was never honest with God! I mean, I confessed, but it wasn't totally honest confession because I always felt guilty about even having to confess and I knew that I was going to do the same thing again... so really "confessing" wasn't honest because I already knew that I would re-commit. But then I got to a point where I had to be honest, because I couldn't half-confess to God anymore and because I was so tired of living a life that was horrible... full of pain, and it hardly ever went the way I wanted it to be anyway (I was/and still can be a real control freak).. and because I knew a life with God would be better than a life against Him. When I say confessing what I mean is honesty- talk to God like He is a stuffed animal who will hold all your secrets and not tell a soul- because He won't, but also talk to Him with reverence because He's God. This doesn't mean you shouldn't wonder, because God knows that people wonder about His existence, but I mean... to say to God "You're a joke, but reveal yourself anyway" is really not being honest.
Honesty is something I have pride in. I don't think as many people as I can be so brutally honest with other people. For years, I was a liar, and it got to a point where I didn't really know who I really was any more. Almost immediately, I changed my ways. Life became so much simpler... If I say something I mean it--unless I'm joking around (you'll know when I am), or when I'm lying to protect someone.This brings me back to why I refuse to pray. I don't feel like I'm being honest to who I'm praying about, nor myself, nor God (whether or not he exists).(stlizzy)
Third point- God is not an idiot... if He is God than He already knows it all, right? So it's okay to ask questions and be confused. He would rather that you told Him and looked to Him than to wikipedia anyway....
I understand your point, and it looks to me that you are telling me to pray to him. I can't for reasons I stated above.(stlizzy)
Ummm. fourth point- you have to weigh your options. Do you really want to give up the life you have if you find God? Because this goes along with the whole honesty thing. Are you really prepared to find God? Or is life fine without Him? What is driving you? A lot of people shrug it off... until something bad happens then they really want God to help them. But others honestly want a change and God listens to those who aren't trying to manipulate Him. Before, I didn't really want my life to change enough to really do something about it...
This is a point I've never really considered, I'll admit. I think it's been in the back of my mind silently, but not because I've been avoiding it, only becuase I don't think I ever consciously thought of it. To a point, I'll have to say no. It's not that I'm actively doing bad things: I try to live an honest life, I try to help those around me, donate, be dependable, and have a little fun. Fun, of course, is semi-conservative. I'm not a wild person, and the most extreme things I do are paintball (it's FUN!) and martial arts (good social support, great for working out, and I learn to defend myself). Other than that, while I have a bit of an anger management problem, I'm well underway of fixing it, and it's NEVER come to the point of harming anyone or thing (though let's forget about the wall a year ago, shall we?)In other words, I think I'm a rather decent, average guy. Would I have to give these up? I don't think so. It would be hard to multi task, I would imagine, but time could definitely be found.(stlizzy)
Fifth point- God is God. What I mean by this is that you might have to accept that there are a lot of things that you don't understand about Him and that your viewpoint might change... mine certainly did... especially about men and how they treat women... and I always felt kind of mad when I thought of God as male because I thought it put down women... lol.. but what I mean is that maybe instead of saying "How could God do horrible things, allow suffering and babies and death and taxes"... maybe you just don't understand yet how He works... and so you have to be open to change. Open to ideas. And... open to others. By this I mean that when others really talk to you, like I am doing now, don't just wait for your turn to speak again, but listen to what they say to you! I have had to learn to do this because before I was all into arguing about politics... and I thought I was a lot smarter than a lot people and that half the country was idiots dependent on the way they voted... lol...
For what I say next, please don't think I didn't read what you said: Women, without any special considerations, are equal to men. While men might be naturally physically stronger, that doesn't make them better. It's just like that guy down the street do juggles perfectly, does that make him better? Nope, only better at a certain task. I cannot worship (I can believe in one, however) a God who thinks otherwise. Just as I can't worship a God who murders, or supports murdering. Killing in any form is wrong. This is treading into a Bible debate, though, and not my objective, but I did think your point was worth a response. I did want to point out though that I could still believe in him, it's just at that point it's a question of will I worship. I'll ask that question when I get there.(stlizzy)
Another point.. I lost count... don't let yourself be too easily persuaded one way or another. You are a smart, rational human being. You have a mind. Use it. Don't buy into crazy ideas too quickly, and don't join ranks with the mudslingers either- because this will blind you, this will stop you in your tracks.... please note that I am not trying to force you to agree with me either. Nobody forced me to agree with them. I did it all on my own...
Haha. We all lose count eventually...Thank you, tenfold, for that warning though. I've seen the...well... Is there a word for what Scientology does to people? It's beyond brainwashing! I'd stand beside a Christian or Muslim any day to protest against them! In fact, if I had known about it before had, I would have went to downtown Orlando to take part in the protests there against the cult. Pagans, while harmless, are silly, and so I'd never believe in that either. Nor astrology (though my mother would have you believe other wise as she doesn't know the difference between that and astronomy...). There are other faiths that seem sensible to me, however, like Islam, Buddhism, ...Christianity.Thank you, though, thank you.(stlizzy)
And by the way, if you are all the way down here to the bottom and you read all that I wrote, because I wrote a lot, I didn't use the Bible because you requested that answers don't use the Bible... well I can relate with what you are saying about it. It used to REALLY turn me off- especially the Old Testament- and I felt like it, too, was dead....... but not anymore.. hahaha!
And I thank you! It didn't go unnoticed, and I definitely feel you are someone whom I can have a chat with without fear of it becoming stagnant nor barbaric. To forgivenWretch,(forgivenWretch)
then open your heart and your mind, and make the choice not to be. You are what you choose to be.
This is the least helpful comment I've received here, nor is it respectful. Instead of reading what I, or anyone for that matter, wrote, you quote the title, say a little "take the red pill" blurb, and expect everything to make sense to me. Thank you very much for showing me the light in such a beautiful way. Stlizzy should take lessons from you.
(Ek Pyros;37062)
"Adam and Eve" was not a parable...
Sure. You are right. To me, it's a prophecy, it's a parable and it's a historical event all at the same time. And so is the story of Noah.
"Adam and Eve" was not a parable...
Sure. You are right. To me, it's a prophecy, it's a parable and it's a historical event all at the same time. And so is the story of Noah.
(Remagoen;36914)
To Hawkins,Like I said, the more you talk about the Bible, the more I'll shrink away. I don't believe in Adam and Eve's existence, and so how would I believe any prophecy about them? I think that if I can find God outside the Bible, I can find him inside the Bible.You do bring up faith, though, and I think I can talk about that as it can be used outside the Bible. I don't have faith, through and through. I have trust that if I drop a plate, the Theory of Gravity will prove true and I'll hurt my toe. I trust that if I scream and yell at one of my friends, they might not be my friend any more. I base my trust in past experience, using my intelligence to think "If I do this, what would happen" and then contemplate an answer. Faith is totally blind and I like seeing. If I can't see, touch, hear, smell, taste it, I have a hard time believing it. If I could sense God, even for a bit, in a way I know it's Him, I would kneel immediately and worship him.
That's not even how humanity is progressed, that's rather your personal preference. You dropped a plate to hit your toe, and from there onward you built the faith that there should be a theory behind the scene, and dug up the truth using your life time (uncertain amount of time) supported by your faith till the theory is discovered and proven. That's a successful example of what Isaac Newton did. Some of the scientists' effort are fruitless, but faith keeps them dedicating to their fields of research, such as the SETI project.Moreover, when you are told that the national treasure is located in a secret place somewhere and inside a treasure box, I don't think it's proper or even reasonable to insist on that the treasure must be placed outside the treasure box for you to discover.
To Hawkins,Like I said, the more you talk about the Bible, the more I'll shrink away. I don't believe in Adam and Eve's existence, and so how would I believe any prophecy about them? I think that if I can find God outside the Bible, I can find him inside the Bible.You do bring up faith, though, and I think I can talk about that as it can be used outside the Bible. I don't have faith, through and through. I have trust that if I drop a plate, the Theory of Gravity will prove true and I'll hurt my toe. I trust that if I scream and yell at one of my friends, they might not be my friend any more. I base my trust in past experience, using my intelligence to think "If I do this, what would happen" and then contemplate an answer. Faith is totally blind and I like seeing. If I can't see, touch, hear, smell, taste it, I have a hard time believing it. If I could sense God, even for a bit, in a way I know it's Him, I would kneel immediately and worship him.
That's not even how humanity is progressed, that's rather your personal preference. You dropped a plate to hit your toe, and from there onward you built the faith that there should be a theory behind the scene, and dug up the truth using your life time (uncertain amount of time) supported by your faith till the theory is discovered and proven. That's a successful example of what Isaac Newton did. Some of the scientists' effort are fruitless, but faith keeps them dedicating to their fields of research, such as the SETI project.Moreover, when you are told that the national treasure is located in a secret place somewhere and inside a treasure box, I don't think it's proper or even reasonable to insist on that the treasure must be placed outside the treasure box for you to discover.
(Remagoen;36977)
Yes, the keyword is evidence, and evidence can turn into proof once it passes the test of skepticism, ridding it of doubt and alternative explanation. It should always be met with a careful eye or else you'll have people running about with evidence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
Are you really sure that evidence can really turn into proof? I mean absolute proof? OK, you might overcome skepticism, doubt and alternatives, but surely this still only leaves the matter "proved" within the scope of your own parameters and yardsticks at the present time. This situation may change at any point thereafter as new, previously unknown, factors enter the equation - surely that is the history of the human race as it has slowly increased its knowledge of what is around it. Theories and truths come and go all the time.That is why the Invisible Pink Unicorn will never become Absolute Truth. For you to find God you will require, not proven evidence, but a live response from a source that is clearly not self-generated. I have never found it. So many people talk of their "personal relationship" with God/Jesus, and that is what it will take before I can believe, but I have not found it yet. However, again, I cannot ignore that so many billions of people claim they believe in God and know him - and so many of these people are intelligent, rational, practical and logical. This is one "evidence" that keeps my "suspicions" of God's existence alive.God, if he is, is Spiritual. There is no point, I think, in looking for him in this-worldly terms. But there are many parallels and I think it is important to keep this in mind. We cannot always trust what we see and feel, sometimes it seems we can trust more what is based on intuition, conscience and the so-called "inner voice".I was interested to hear you comment about prayer. I have the same situation. I used to attend a Christian organisation and was often asked to pray for people. I couldn't refuse without revealing my doubts so I did it - but it felt so cheap and artificial because I have no sense of anyone on the other end - like talking in public to a cell phone with no battery in it. I felt so like a cheat that I stopped going there. I cannot pray in the normal sense of the word. However, I am also convinced that God is not so limited, or limiting, that only wordy prayer is acceptable. If he is there then he knows what is going on in my mind and heart.Which raises another point. We talk about searching for God, (and I have done that for so long that I no longer have the energy to continue), but if God wants to be found it will not be stifled by our own clumsiness or inability to look in the right place. Maybe it is not really the right thing to say to you, but I have reached the point where I live my life according to the bible and I leave the door to my heart open for God if he ever decides to stop by. He can find me far easier than I can find him - so far the table is set for two but one plate remains unused.I am sorry I did not respond to your other question, I didn't realise it was important: "But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"? I don't think so. I think there are only two sides of "creation", the creator and the created. I don't know the Creator, but I can experience the created. The only other option is that there was no creation, in which case things have always existed. By "creation" I don't necessarily mean God as Creator, I just mean how things started. Since the universe is changing continually, it seems logical to assume it began its physical, material existence at some time in the past. Therefore, it must have either been deliberate act by an intelligent source or the natural outcome of a process such as energy conversion to matter, etc. I wasn't inferring only a God-type Creation.But my point was simply that when studying the world around us, the balance of evidence is, for me, much more supportive of intellligent design than evolved sequential development.
Yes, the keyword is evidence, and evidence can turn into proof once it passes the test of skepticism, ridding it of doubt and alternative explanation. It should always be met with a careful eye or else you'll have people running about with evidence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
Are you really sure that evidence can really turn into proof? I mean absolute proof? OK, you might overcome skepticism, doubt and alternatives, but surely this still only leaves the matter "proved" within the scope of your own parameters and yardsticks at the present time. This situation may change at any point thereafter as new, previously unknown, factors enter the equation - surely that is the history of the human race as it has slowly increased its knowledge of what is around it. Theories and truths come and go all the time.That is why the Invisible Pink Unicorn will never become Absolute Truth. For you to find God you will require, not proven evidence, but a live response from a source that is clearly not self-generated. I have never found it. So many people talk of their "personal relationship" with God/Jesus, and that is what it will take before I can believe, but I have not found it yet. However, again, I cannot ignore that so many billions of people claim they believe in God and know him - and so many of these people are intelligent, rational, practical and logical. This is one "evidence" that keeps my "suspicions" of God's existence alive.God, if he is, is Spiritual. There is no point, I think, in looking for him in this-worldly terms. But there are many parallels and I think it is important to keep this in mind. We cannot always trust what we see and feel, sometimes it seems we can trust more what is based on intuition, conscience and the so-called "inner voice".I was interested to hear you comment about prayer. I have the same situation. I used to attend a Christian organisation and was often asked to pray for people. I couldn't refuse without revealing my doubts so I did it - but it felt so cheap and artificial because I have no sense of anyone on the other end - like talking in public to a cell phone with no battery in it. I felt so like a cheat that I stopped going there. I cannot pray in the normal sense of the word. However, I am also convinced that God is not so limited, or limiting, that only wordy prayer is acceptable. If he is there then he knows what is going on in my mind and heart.Which raises another point. We talk about searching for God, (and I have done that for so long that I no longer have the energy to continue), but if God wants to be found it will not be stifled by our own clumsiness or inability to look in the right place. Maybe it is not really the right thing to say to you, but I have reached the point where I live my life according to the bible and I leave the door to my heart open for God if he ever decides to stop by. He can find me far easier than I can find him - so far the table is set for two but one plate remains unused.I am sorry I did not respond to your other question, I didn't realise it was important: "But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"? I don't think so. I think there are only two sides of "creation", the creator and the created. I don't know the Creator, but I can experience the created. The only other option is that there was no creation, in which case things have always existed. By "creation" I don't necessarily mean God as Creator, I just mean how things started. Since the universe is changing continually, it seems logical to assume it began its physical, material existence at some time in the past. Therefore, it must have either been deliberate act by an intelligent source or the natural outcome of a process such as energy conversion to matter, etc. I wasn't inferring only a God-type Creation.But my point was simply that when studying the world around us, the balance of evidence is, for me, much more supportive of intellligent design than evolved sequential development.
kalixx: but I have reached the point where I live my life according to the bible and I leave the door to my heart open for God if he ever decides to stop by. He can find me far easier than I can find him - so far the table is set for two but one plate remains unused.Thunder1:How interesting... hmm
forgivenWretch
New Member
To forgivenWretch, Quote: Originally Posted by forgivenWretch then open your heart and your mind, and make the choice not to be. You are what you choose to be. This is the least helpful comment I've received here, nor is it respectful. Instead of reading what I, or anyone for that matter, wrote, you quote the title, say a little "take the red pill" blurb, and expect everything to make sense to me. Thank you very much for showing me the light in such a beautiful way. Stlizzy should take lessons from you.
Remember...one must have an open mind, and I'm sorry that you seem not to possess one. There was only disrespect seen in your eyes, because non was given. Why do defensive? Why the necessity to attack? Why hate? those who say something that you may not agree with? Why not simply let the person know that the way you learn is different? Why be offensive, defensive, and retaliatory?
Remember...one must have an open mind, and I'm sorry that you seem not to possess one. There was only disrespect seen in your eyes, because non was given. Why do defensive? Why the necessity to attack? Why hate? those who say something that you may not agree with? Why not simply let the person know that the way you learn is different? Why be offensive, defensive, and retaliatory?
To All,I just literally woke up. I might say some weird things...To Stlizzy,I haven't read all of your response yet, but I'm working on it. Is there anyway to continue this conversation off the forum? Through AIM or some such like that? I think our replies are going to get larger and larger if we stay here and I don't want to terminate this. It's getting so good!To Hawkins,(hawkins)
That's not even how humanity is progressed, that's rather your personal preference. You dropped a plate to hit your toe, and from there onward you built the faith that there should be a theory behind the scene, and dug up the truth using your life time (uncertain amount of time) supported by your faith till the theory is discovered and proven. That's a successful example of what Isaac Newton did. Some of the scientists' effort are fruitless, but faith keeps them dedicating to their fields of research, such as the SETI project.Moreover, when you are told that the national treasure is located in a secret place somewhere and inside a treasure box, I don't think it's proper or even reasonable to insist on that the treasure must be placed outside the treasure box for you to discover.
Don't mistake dedication for faith. The SETI project is the SEARCH for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. Searching implies they don't know there's life out there, but they have their eyes and ears open. This is the same thing I have going for God. I've had my eyes and ears open for a while and I'm going getting anything. That treasure and box are real, tangible things. God has, to me, never felt real nor tangible. Also, I'm not being told to find him, I'm being told to allow my into my heart. That's vastly different. To Kalixx,(kalixx)
Are you really sure that evidence can really turn into proof? I mean absolute proof? OK, you might overcome skepticism, doubt and alternatives, but surely this still only leaves the matter "proved" within the scope of your own parameters and yardsticks at the present time. This situation may change at any point thereafter as new, previously unknown, factors enter the equation - surely that is the history of the human race as it has slowly increased its knowledge of what is around it. Theories and truths come and go all the time.
You raise a good point. Perhaps it would be better if I say evidence can lead to proof? This way, the evidence would still be independent (the sky looks blue), but you still have a proof (the sky is indeed blue) to work with after analyzing.(kalixx)
That is why the Invisible Pink Unicorn will never become Absolute Truth. For you to find God you will require, not proven evidence, but a live response from a source that is clearly not self-generated. I have never found it. So many people talk of their "personal relationship" with God/Jesus, and that is what it will take before I can believe, but I have not found it yet. However, again, I cannot ignore that so many billions of people claim they believe in God and know him - and so many of these people are intelligent, rational, practical and logical. This is one "evidence" that keeps my "suspicions" of God's existence alive.
That second sentence sums me up rather well. And yes you can ignore it. The masses once thought the world was flat. We now know different. Strength in numbers has little weight to me.(kalixx)
God, if he is, is Spiritual. There is no point, I think, in looking for him in this-worldly terms. But there are many parallels and I think it is important to keep this in mind. We cannot always trust what we see and feel, sometimes it seems we can trust more what is based on intuition, conscience and the so-called "inner voice".
I listen to that voice a lot, perhaps more than what my head says. For the most part it's right, and it's that voice telling me to remain skeptical.(kalixx)
I was interested to hear you comment about prayer. I have the same situation. I used to attend a Christian organisation and was often asked to pray for people. I couldn't refuse without revealing my doubts so I did it - but it felt so cheap and artificial because I have no sense of anyone on the other end - like talking in public to a cell phone with no battery in it. I felt so like a cheat that I stopped going there. I cannot pray in the normal sense of the word. However, I am also convinced that God is not so limited, or limiting, that only wordy prayer is acceptable. If he is there then he knows what is going on in my mind and heart.
PERFECT analogy with the cellphone! I've been trying to describe that for years and I've never been able to do it. Mind if I use that one myself?For the rest of what you said though, if he knows what's going on and I don't need to just vocalize it, why pray at all? Why does anyone pray for that matter? By that logic, "He knows" anyway.(kalixx)
Which raises another point. We talk about searching for God, (and I have done that for so long that I no longer have the energy to continue), but if God wants to be found it will not be stifled by our own clumsiness or inability to look in the right place. Maybe it is not really the right thing to say to you, but I have reached the point where I live my life according to the bible and I leave the door to my heart open for God if he ever decides to stop by. He can find me far easier than I can find him - so far the table is set for two but one plate remains unused.
That's almost how I feel. Only difference is that the table already had food on it, I'm hungry, and I'm sticking my head out the door about to leave it to eat. I've wandered outside for a while now, and I think it's time to sit down--but I won't close that door. (kalixx)
I am sorry I did not respond to your other question, I didn't realise it was important: "But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"?
It's ok.(kalixx)
I don't think so. I think there are only two sides of "creation", the creator and the created. I don't know the Creator, but I can experience the created. The only other option is that there was no creation, in which case things have always existed. By "creation" I don't necessarily mean God as Creator, I just mean how things started. Since the universe is changing continually, it seems logical to assume it began its physical, material existence at some time in the past. Therefore, it must have either been deliberate act by an intelligent source or the natural outcome of a process such as energy conversion to matter, etc. I wasn't inferring only a God-type Creation.
I understand. When people say "creation", they usually use it only one way, and so that's how I was interpreting the paragraph. I'm glad I asked about it...(kalixx)
But my point was simply that when studying the world around us, the balance of evidence is, for me, much more supportive of intellligent design than evolved sequential development.
I would disagree. I don't find any evidence at all supporting ID, while plenty for ESD. I'm not too sure if right now is a time to discuss them, though if you think it could help me find God, I suppose it's not that much Biblical.To forgivenWretch,(forgivenWretch)
Remember...one must have an open mind, and I'm sorry that you seem not to possess one. There was only disrespect seen in your eyes, because non was given. Why do defensive? Why the necessity to attack? Why hate? those who say something that you may not agree with? Why not simply let the person know that the way you learn is different? Why be offensive, defensive, and retaliatory?
And now you flat out insult me. Why do you think I'm here? Why do you think I've told people several times that they have good points or that they bring up something I haven't considered before and that I would do so. Isn't that the sign of an open mind? Just because I refuse to swallow your red pill doesn't mean anything other than I don't like that red pill. In fact, if "all you need to do is open your heart", why isn't there countless more Christians in this world. You put it so easily after all...How the **** can I be attacking you with defense??? Read your own words--they contradict.The way I learn has nothing to do with how I replied. I replied the way I did because all you did was quote the title and hand me a red pill. You didn't respond to anything I took the time, energy, and thought to write; you didn't even respond to anything anyone else took the time, energy, and thought to write! That is disrespect.You are in danger of not even receiving the dignity of a reply if you continue to throw words at me with blatant contradictions or show your peers (including myself) disrespect.
That's not even how humanity is progressed, that's rather your personal preference. You dropped a plate to hit your toe, and from there onward you built the faith that there should be a theory behind the scene, and dug up the truth using your life time (uncertain amount of time) supported by your faith till the theory is discovered and proven. That's a successful example of what Isaac Newton did. Some of the scientists' effort are fruitless, but faith keeps them dedicating to their fields of research, such as the SETI project.Moreover, when you are told that the national treasure is located in a secret place somewhere and inside a treasure box, I don't think it's proper or even reasonable to insist on that the treasure must be placed outside the treasure box for you to discover.
Don't mistake dedication for faith. The SETI project is the SEARCH for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. Searching implies they don't know there's life out there, but they have their eyes and ears open. This is the same thing I have going for God. I've had my eyes and ears open for a while and I'm going getting anything. That treasure and box are real, tangible things. God has, to me, never felt real nor tangible. Also, I'm not being told to find him, I'm being told to allow my into my heart. That's vastly different. To Kalixx,(kalixx)
Are you really sure that evidence can really turn into proof? I mean absolute proof? OK, you might overcome skepticism, doubt and alternatives, but surely this still only leaves the matter "proved" within the scope of your own parameters and yardsticks at the present time. This situation may change at any point thereafter as new, previously unknown, factors enter the equation - surely that is the history of the human race as it has slowly increased its knowledge of what is around it. Theories and truths come and go all the time.
You raise a good point. Perhaps it would be better if I say evidence can lead to proof? This way, the evidence would still be independent (the sky looks blue), but you still have a proof (the sky is indeed blue) to work with after analyzing.(kalixx)
That is why the Invisible Pink Unicorn will never become Absolute Truth. For you to find God you will require, not proven evidence, but a live response from a source that is clearly not self-generated. I have never found it. So many people talk of their "personal relationship" with God/Jesus, and that is what it will take before I can believe, but I have not found it yet. However, again, I cannot ignore that so many billions of people claim they believe in God and know him - and so many of these people are intelligent, rational, practical and logical. This is one "evidence" that keeps my "suspicions" of God's existence alive.
That second sentence sums me up rather well. And yes you can ignore it. The masses once thought the world was flat. We now know different. Strength in numbers has little weight to me.(kalixx)
God, if he is, is Spiritual. There is no point, I think, in looking for him in this-worldly terms. But there are many parallels and I think it is important to keep this in mind. We cannot always trust what we see and feel, sometimes it seems we can trust more what is based on intuition, conscience and the so-called "inner voice".
I listen to that voice a lot, perhaps more than what my head says. For the most part it's right, and it's that voice telling me to remain skeptical.(kalixx)
I was interested to hear you comment about prayer. I have the same situation. I used to attend a Christian organisation and was often asked to pray for people. I couldn't refuse without revealing my doubts so I did it - but it felt so cheap and artificial because I have no sense of anyone on the other end - like talking in public to a cell phone with no battery in it. I felt so like a cheat that I stopped going there. I cannot pray in the normal sense of the word. However, I am also convinced that God is not so limited, or limiting, that only wordy prayer is acceptable. If he is there then he knows what is going on in my mind and heart.
PERFECT analogy with the cellphone! I've been trying to describe that for years and I've never been able to do it. Mind if I use that one myself?For the rest of what you said though, if he knows what's going on and I don't need to just vocalize it, why pray at all? Why does anyone pray for that matter? By that logic, "He knows" anyway.(kalixx)
Which raises another point. We talk about searching for God, (and I have done that for so long that I no longer have the energy to continue), but if God wants to be found it will not be stifled by our own clumsiness or inability to look in the right place. Maybe it is not really the right thing to say to you, but I have reached the point where I live my life according to the bible and I leave the door to my heart open for God if he ever decides to stop by. He can find me far easier than I can find him - so far the table is set for two but one plate remains unused.
That's almost how I feel. Only difference is that the table already had food on it, I'm hungry, and I'm sticking my head out the door about to leave it to eat. I've wandered outside for a while now, and I think it's time to sit down--but I won't close that door. (kalixx)
I am sorry I did not respond to your other question, I didn't realise it was important: "But I noticed you used the word "created" there. Do you have evidence of creation beyond "look around you"?
It's ok.(kalixx)
I don't think so. I think there are only two sides of "creation", the creator and the created. I don't know the Creator, but I can experience the created. The only other option is that there was no creation, in which case things have always existed. By "creation" I don't necessarily mean God as Creator, I just mean how things started. Since the universe is changing continually, it seems logical to assume it began its physical, material existence at some time in the past. Therefore, it must have either been deliberate act by an intelligent source or the natural outcome of a process such as energy conversion to matter, etc. I wasn't inferring only a God-type Creation.
I understand. When people say "creation", they usually use it only one way, and so that's how I was interpreting the paragraph. I'm glad I asked about it...(kalixx)
But my point was simply that when studying the world around us, the balance of evidence is, for me, much more supportive of intellligent design than evolved sequential development.
I would disagree. I don't find any evidence at all supporting ID, while plenty for ESD. I'm not too sure if right now is a time to discuss them, though if you think it could help me find God, I suppose it's not that much Biblical.To forgivenWretch,(forgivenWretch)
Remember...one must have an open mind, and I'm sorry that you seem not to possess one. There was only disrespect seen in your eyes, because non was given. Why do defensive? Why the necessity to attack? Why hate? those who say something that you may not agree with? Why not simply let the person know that the way you learn is different? Why be offensive, defensive, and retaliatory?
And now you flat out insult me. Why do you think I'm here? Why do you think I've told people several times that they have good points or that they bring up something I haven't considered before and that I would do so. Isn't that the sign of an open mind? Just because I refuse to swallow your red pill doesn't mean anything other than I don't like that red pill. In fact, if "all you need to do is open your heart", why isn't there countless more Christians in this world. You put it so easily after all...How the **** can I be attacking you with defense??? Read your own words--they contradict.The way I learn has nothing to do with how I replied. I replied the way I did because all you did was quote the title and hand me a red pill. You didn't respond to anything I took the time, energy, and thought to write; you didn't even respond to anything anyone else took the time, energy, and thought to write! That is disrespect.You are in danger of not even receiving the dignity of a reply if you continue to throw words at me with blatant contradictions or show your peers (including myself) disrespect.
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