I had a dream

[Stranger]

Matt 3:11, and since i'm already familiar with your rituals on the first two, how bout we just skip right to the third one, gimme your opinion on that one, if you would.

I would like to know the Scripture first for the baptism of being born.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

well, i could go find it, and bring it to you, it's in a couple of places, at least, but then you also have support for the rituals, if you read on the surface, and don't personally apply the Book to yourself--all the parts that we are trained to believe apply to those "other" people, the "bad" people, i mean, so i hope you understand that i'm not too inclined to do this, as long as you are so obviously asking from "Why?"

and i'll just say that you can find it yourself, when you seek it, you could even just ask God to open your eyes on the matter, understanding that no one gets all the truth at once, me included--"all truth" would prolly kill us, all at once i guess.

So, a big indicator for me is when people are able to find "Don't find love until you are ready," there in that Book that never gets quoted, and you never hear any sermons on, and they are able to find some relevance for that verse in their own walk, with all due respect. No sense getting ahead of ourselves here. So, if you can tell me how that verse applies to you, i will happily answer your question. Wadr i would have replied to you differently than i did David there, out of respect for your current beliefs, and understanding that you need no help.

or, if you prefer, you might explain to me the "two sticks" that are broken, and must be rejoined, being as how we got a Jewish brother HereNow, and i like to give more than one choice anyway, being as how my train of thought isn't always so clear, i guess.

 

[bbyrd009]

I would like to know the Scripture first for the baptism of being born.

Stranger

i hope you see, S, that this "proof" thing you are looking for, this "chapter and verse" stuff, that is a chimera, and it does not exist, ok? Scripture does not work that way. Or at least, who among us does not have the experience of being sure in their own minds, and having some passages to reinforce that knowledge, only to have someone else come along with an opposing, but equally supportable doctrine? Absolute truth does not exist, iow. All truth is subjective. If you are convinced that rituals are important, then frankly i am not even interested in changing your opinion, and i have just recently come to understand that this is how the Book fillets us, "joints separated from marrow," so that our hearts may be revealed, which is what the Book is for; everything else is secondary.

So, what we do--without realizing it--is to loudly proclaim just exactly where we stand, what our beliefs are, disregarding that "Love believes all things," which is a hard lesson to learn. We enthusiastically "pull tares," i still do it, too, despite the admonition to not do this, and "let the tares grow with the wheat," which certainly seems counter-intuitive to us, i know, but i gotta tell you, i have pulled up a lot of wheat in my day. Prolly pulled some up today.

So, i guess i'm saying never mind that right now, it isn't even so important. Imo what is important is, one thing, anyway, is one a student, or a teacher? If you (the common "you," not you, Stranger) are a teacher, then answer questions. And if you are a student, then ask them, recognizing that questions asked from "Why?" are not really questions at all; they are just set-ups, with a prepared come-back usually pre-loaded, and, like the Job thing, it would not matter if God Himself came down and told you, if your mind is already made up on a matter, you cannot be a student. (With the understanding that a question can be an answer, but see how an answer cannot really be a question, if that makes any sense. And your questions are not by way of shedding any light on my questions, wadr, they are just deemed "more important" by you, perhaps, they are a completely diff subject, see).

 

[bbyrd009]

I would like to know the Scripture first for the baptism of being born.

Stranger

so then, no, that is irrelevant to the question about the baptism of fire, and since my Scriptures would not serve you, and they are nonetheless the exact same Scriptures that you already know, and just choose to read how you have been instructed by guys with ties, men with charisma and degrees (who have all signed Contracts for Jesus), there is no point in going over them, or the spirit one, at which you might surely refer me to some glossololia/tongues thing, wherein we could not then look at Paul's "Gurgling and cooing," either, and we would just waste a page or two more of peoples' time here. With all due respect.

 

[bbyrd009]

ok, and just so it's clear, i don't know about the fire one, i asked that as a student, all i got is some ideas there, ok. But i think i got the Spirit one, i have been accused of being drunk at the third hour, and that's about as far as i've gotten, myself.

 

[Stranger]

bbyrd009

Well, if you have no Scriptural base for what you are saying, then, again, why should you be taken seriously? I certainly can't take you seriously.

There are absolutes and absolute Truth. Jesus Christ is the Truth. The written Word of God is the Truth. Christians can have opinons on what they believe the truth is in the Bible, but not that it does not exist.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

bbyrd009

Well, if you have no Scriptural base for what you are saying, then, again, why should you be taken seriously? I certainly can't take you seriously.

There are absolutes and absolute Truth. Jesus Christ is the Truth. The written Word of God is the Truth. Christians can have opinons on what they believe the truth is in the Bible, but not that it does not exist.

Stranger

well, i don't mean to say that i have no Scriptural basis for them, but that we would just devolve into the standard argument over the interpretation, and that never seems to go anywhere, wadr, so i have learned to just go right to the one, the "baptism," that no one can answer for, not even me, but at least i am acknowledging it, whereas the "ritual" people usually do not. Because we can surely both agree that John Baptist said Christ would baptize with the Spirit, and with Fire, and we are mostly plexed up on the "water" one, huh, making sure the right words get said, deeming that a "confession," and earnestly "re-baptizing" people whom we have convinced got "baptized wrong" the first time, etc. And then of course we have the (ritual of) "spirit" baptism, that we could wrangle about for a few pages, and settle nothing there, either, so all i can tell you is that when you start asking as a student, and not a lawyer--which i understand, ok, i'm not knocking you for this, but it just is an indicator of where you are at, and there is nothing wrong with you, right now, as far as I'm concerned; it just is what it is--then we can maybe go there then. Because, as you say, you cannot take me seriously, right now, and tbh the interpretation i would give you is hardly unique or anything, i got it from someone else, and it isn't going anywhere.

@ "Absolute Truth," yes, Christ is the Truth, but notice a lot of people worshipping Nehushtan, from the Promised Land, they have already arrived, so the phrase is fraught with meaning, means something a bit different to everyone, so don't take me wrong, but that is basically meaningless. Hitler would agree with us, iow.

@ "Written Word of God," there is no such thing, which i see is finally starting to be revealed in forums, and so we can go into that if you like. Once the Word is written, it becomes "it is written," not "Word." Word requires Breath, Pneuma, and if what you say is true, then

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God

is also true, which it is not, so, that is just the condensed argument, which i have had before, which is not too fair to you, and if you wanna back up and go through that we can, i'll tell you that Deut 30 is prolly your best shot there, like vv 8-12, in there, but notice there is a change from "commandments" to "commandment" that most people overlook, and i'll tell you that i didn't see it, until i read the vv backwards, myself.
The Book is God~Breathed, though, came from Word, but of course is vastly different now than when It was written, now we got "Easter," and all of us who "are saved," and all kinda other Scribation, so that's where i'm at there. Which i know is a big step, from people telling you "let's get into the Word" your whole life, and picking up a Bible. sorry. When you hear that, you might just hear "I'm about to get Scribed," wadr.

Christians can have opinons on what they believe the truth is in the Bible, but not that it does not exist.

well, show me "Easter" in the Bible, and we'll go from there, ok?

 

[Stranger]

bbyrd009

Well, give me your Scriptural basis for being born as a baptism.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

ok, we can look at them in the morning, i do better then, but we are just going to end up at a standoff over "born of water," and prolly arguing over whether "born again" is instantaneous, or a process, and so we'll end up at "are you saved, right now, or not?" which i've already pretty much just done with major, just to set you up where i'll be going. So, if you can verify that you are saved, right now, in Scripture, you win. Good luck. See you then.

 

[theophilus]

No you dont that is just religion talking, making slaves of men, all we need is Christ if He is not enough for you than the world will never be enough..

Each of us is a member of Christ's body and we cannot function by ourselves. We need to be connected to other members of his body and the local church is where we do this.

 

[theophilus]

i don't know about the fire one, i asked that as a student, all i got is some ideas there, ok.

John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
(Luke 3:16-17 ESV)

John spoke of baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire and immediately after spoke of separating the wheat and the chaff and burning the chaff in fire. Those who believe in Christ are baptized in the Holy Spirit and are the wheat; those who refuse to believe are the chaff and are baptized with fire.

 

[bbyrd009]

ya, that's a common view, and might even be all he meant; that would seem to indicate Universal Salvation, so i don't know.

I note that even believers are characterized elsewhere as possibly being saved, as from a fire;

15If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.

but i don't think any of these are Christ's "baptism of fire" that John Baptist mentions, though i could be wrong.

 

[Josho]

A dream isn't a substitute for real life, this rain and wind could be a foreshadowing of an outpouring of the spirit that will come in real life if you are baptized. If you can find the right church and be baptized there you can be a blessing to them as much as they to you.

Once your with the right church you would also be better prepared to help others outside the church.

The supernatural realm is greater than the natural.

I had a dream. I was baptized in a dream by a priest. I saw Jesus and walked with him. I ate with him and with friends and we started joking around. But near the end of the dream, he told me to get ready. He is coming soon. He is coming soon. I saw a vision, I was eating with my friends. But then suddenly came heavy rains and mighty winds and the earth starts to shake and people starts to run. Then I am fully awake.

Those are heavy rains and mighty winds of revival, a great outpouring of the Holy Ghost, it has started in Bendigo and is gonna spread. God bless ya mate, there aren't many like you, you are young and have the gift of prophecy, the gift of prophecy or any spiritual gifts is a rare thing for our generation, especially right here in Australia, they are too caught up into the worldly sinful desires.

 

[Josho]

Yes, all Christians are members of this church, but if we want to obey God we must also be part of a local congregation. Wherever Paul and the other apostles preached the gospel they established local congregations which were called churches. Why would they have done this if these congregations weren't necessary?

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
(Hebrews 10:24-25 ESV)

This is a command from God and if you refuse to obey you are not serving God as well as you could.

Why can't you stand any of the congregations in your area? Is it because none of them teach the truth of the Bible? If this is the case perhaps you are right in not joining one of them. But if they do teach the truth and your aversion is based on your personal likes or dislikes, remember that obedience to God takes priority over our personal preferences. These people are your brothers and sisters in Christ. Sometimes we may find our relatives hard to get along with but that doesn't change the fact that they are our relatives. If they are true believers you will be associating with them in heaven, so why not try to get to know them better now?

Ah messages of legalism again.... Church is not restricted to a building with 4 walls, why would it be? Church can be on the streets, at the dinner table, a cafe, in a hotel, in a pub, in a bar, on public transport, in the marketplace. You can start talking about Jesus in your workplace and even that is Church, my workmate asks me questions about Jesus and Christianity, wants to hear about stories, testimonies. There are no limitations. Sitting down with the Holy Ghost that's church too. Nowhere in the New Testament is gathering in a building a requirement.

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ is definitely coming, for you; whenever you are ready, that is, as a Prepared Bride, which is why "only God knows when."

you cannot be the Body of Christ if you are also looking for Christ's bodily return; the two are mutually exclusive, like, by definition.

 

[theophilus]

Nowhere in the New Testament is gathering in a building a requirement.

No, but we are commanded to meet together and it is usually most convenient to do it in a building.

 

[bbyrd009]

Convenient, yes. For someone, anyway. Convenience might be our worst sin. "Cloistered" might be a better word, wadr.