I have my doubts that Catholicism is Christianity

[Origen]

Ecclesiastes 3:19 "For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity."

@Origen everything you have written can be undone by this one verse!

The only different is we have the ability of morally reason right from wrong.

Ecc. 3:19 is about how animal-man and animal-brute both live and will undergo physical death, hence the part where it says "as one dies, so dies the other". This fact doesn't undo the other fact that only animal-man are made in the image and likeness of God, and given dominion over the animal-brutes (Gen. 1:26-28). Gen. 2:7 reads that God "[...]breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving man something. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is the breath of God which is the soul [a spirit], the soul as life. It is the breath of the Spirit of God that becomes a living spirit in man: God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it. That's why we have reason and morality and they don't. Therefore, animal-brutes don't and couldn't have a soul [spirit] that animal-man has.

It seems that none of my points were addressed, which is quite telling. It gives me some insight into the kind of believer you are and how you approach discussion.

I did address points that you made. If you decide to quote and reply to my responses, I'll be here.

 

[Hiddenthings]

As I said, in Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. Therefore, it's the physical body that returns to dust (Gen. 3:19, Ecc. 3:20). In addition to having a physical body, within it is our spiritual and immortal soul: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7);

This has been dealt with in a previous post!

"They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [soul]!'” (Ac. 7:59).

Now lets deal with this mess!

If the real Stephen were merely a spirit, then who is the "he" referred to in verse 60, which says he "fell asleep"? The personal pronouns are consistently applied to the body, not to something residing within it. This usage of language challenges and ultimately undermines the idea that Stephen’s true self was an immortal essence separate from the body.

"Sleep" is a scriptural term used to describe the unconscious state of death, with the clear implication of a future awakening at the Resurrection. This is supported by strong biblical evidence, see John 11, especially verses 11, 14, and 24; along with Daniel 12:2 and 1 Corinthians 15:6, 18. The statement that Stephen "fell asleep" indicates that he did not go immediately to his reward, a point further confirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–16.

If your first two points are already shown to be mistaken, what will we find when we examine the rest of your argument more closely?

As I said your exegesis is terrible and the notions you force on the Word lacks evidence.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Ecc. 3:19 is about how animal-man and animal-brute both live and will undergo physical death, hence the part where it says "as one dies, so dies the other". This fact doesn't undo the other fact that only animal-man are made in the image and likeness of God, and given dominion over the animal-brutes (Gen. 1:26-28). Gen. 2:7 reads that God "[...]breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving man something. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is the breath of God which is the soul [a spirit], the soul as life. It is the breath of the Spirit of God that becomes a living spirit in man: God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it. That's why we have reason and morality and they don't. Therefore, animal-brutes don't and couldn't have a soul [spirit] that animal-man has.



I did address points that you made. If you decide to quote and reply to my responses, I'll be here.

Ha - you spin what you want when you want it!

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where the word "breath" is used to describe a person as immortal or as possessing immortality? And if there is a literal example in Scripture of an immortal spirit departing to heaven, I would appreciate it if you could provide that as well.

Everything you have written (too much!) is just your false notions upon the Word without any textual evidence.

Don't write copious volumes of your false understanding - just give me the Scripture which you think supports your teaching.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Origen If you truly believe that Lazarus died, went to heaven, and was then brought back to earth to re-enter his body, then you are seriously mistaken.

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

And what's wrong with David that he remained in the grave?

O that's right he never expected anything more than the grave and to be raised out of it one day.

Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol (grave) who will give you praise?"

Psalm 30:9 "What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?"

Psalm 115:17 "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence."

I could go on, but doing so would only further highlight how unfounded and manmade your teaching truly is.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Origen what's sad about your understanding is you missed what was meant by Stephen saying, "receive my Spirit", because it goes on to tell you what the spirit (breath) was...

"Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” Ac 7:60.

His last breath was to utter these words and to give them to Christ who was standing at the right hand of the Father on High.

After this, he fell asleep in the Lord and died.

In God’s mercy, he drew his final breath and now rests, awaiting the great trumpet of God that will call him forth from the memorial grave (1 Thess 4:13, 15).

Stephen will awaken to behold with awe the face of the man who once led his persecution. Acts chapter 8 begins, "Saul was consenting unto his death" a phrase that, fittingly, belongs at the conclusion of chapter 7. What unspeakable joy will be Stephen’s when he sees that his prayer and sacrifice were not in vain, and that countless souls (lives) were stirred by his unwavering devotion and faith.

Among those standing with Stephen will be the apostle Paul, himself now a recipient of the "crown of righteousness." In that day, it will be said with full truth that Christ is our peace he who has made both one, and broken down the dividing wall between them (Ephesians 2:14).

You have much learn of the true Gospel of God.

 

[Origen]

This has been dealt with in a previous post!

And, then I responded.

If the real Stephen were merely a spirit, then who is the "he" referred to in verse 60, which says he "fell asleep"?

Stephen was a human, and humans have a physical body and an immortal spiritual soul within their body. We read that God created the first man's physical body from the dust of the earth. In Gen. 2:7, we read that God then "[...]breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving man something. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is the breath of God which is the soul [a spirit], the soul as life. It is the breath of the Spirit of God that becomes a living spirit in man: God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it. That's why we have reason and morality and animal-brutes don't.

Stephen's soul [spirit], given to him by God, was within his physical body. When he knew he was about to physically die, he said to the Lord, "receive my spirit [soul]!" and "Lord, don’t hold this sin against them!" [their sin of killing him], and then he fell asleep, which is another way of saying that he physically died. His immortal soul [spirit], however, returned to God Who gave it to receive judgment, as what happens to every soul upon physical death of their body (Ecc. 12:7, Heb. 9:27, Matt. 12:46-37, 2 Cor. 5:10). A soul will either be judged to have won eternal life with God in Heaven or eternal life separated from God in Hell, of their own free will.

Regarding judgment and resurrection, to reiterate, it's written that the spirit (soul) returns to God upon the physical death of the body, and it's then that it appears before Jesus in the individual judgment. But it is only a partial resurrection. Rather than a resurrection, it could be called the liberation of the spirit from the sheath of the flesh and the spirit's waiting to rejoin the flesh so as to reconstitute the living temple, created by the Father, the temple of man created in the image and likeness of God. (Gen. 1:26;2:7)

A work in which one part is missing is incomplete and thus imperfect. Man as a work, perfect in his creation, is incomplete and imperfect if not joined together again in his different parts. Destined to the Kingdom of Light or the dwelling of darkness, men must eternally be in one or the other with their perfection as flesh and spirit. The first and second resurrection are thus spoken of. But observe.

The one who has [spiritually] killed his spirit with an earthly life of sin comes to Jesus, in the particular judgment, with a spirit that is already dead. The final resurrection will cause his flesh to take on again the weight of the spirit so as to die [spiritually] with it completely. Whereas the one who has overcome the flesh in earthly life comes to Jesus, in the particular judgment, with an alive spirit that, on entering Paradise, increases his mode of living.

Those being purged (the souls in Purgatory—a place which precedes Heaven) are also "alive". [Spiritually] sick, but alive. When healing is obtained in expiation, they will enter the place which is Life. In the final resurrection their spirits, alive with Jesus's Life, to which they will be indissolubly united, will take on the flesh again to make it glorious and live with it totally, just as He lives with it. (Ezek. 18:4;5;17, Matt. 25: 31:46, 1 Cor. 15:35-58)

That's why the first and second death are spoken of and, consequently, the first and second resurrection. (N43)

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where the word "breath" is used to describe a person as immortal or as possessing immortality?

Again, Gen. 2:7 reads that God "[...]breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving man something. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is the breath of God which is the soul [a spirit], the soul as life. It is the breath of the Spirit of God that becomes a living spirit in man: God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). A spirit, such as the soul [a spirit], is incorporeal (Lk. 24:39), which means it isn't subject to the limits of physical death, and thus is immortal [Note: while all spirits are immortal, the only Spirit Who is eternal, as in "without beginning or end", is God].

And if there is a literal example in Scripture of an immortal spirit departing to heaven, I would appreciate it if you could provide that as well.

Again, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7). This means that upon physical death, a person's immortal soul [spirit] will return to God for judgment (Heb. 9:27, Matt. 12:46-37, 2 Cor. 5:10), where that soul is either judged to have won eternal life with God in Heaven, or eternal life separated from God in Hell.

@Origen If you truly believe that Lazarus died, went to heaven, and was then brought back to earth to re-enter his body, then you are seriously mistaken.

Lazarus's soul couldn't have gone to Heaven after he physically died, because Jesus hadn't died and reopened the gates of Heaven yet. So, that means while Lazarus was physically dead, his soul would've been in Limbo, a dwelling place for souls going to Heaven but who couldn't yet enter it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

And, then I responded.

Stephen was a human, and humans have a physical body and an immortal spiritual soul within their body.

Wow that didn't take long!

 

[Hiddenthings]

What you fail to see is that Stephen, like his Master, was offering his spirit (Greek pneuma), expressed through a character marked by supreme courage, faith, and wholehearted commitment to God, as a sacrifice on Christ’s altar.

You have twisted this beautiful expression into one of self-interest, which shows the destructive nature of false teaching.

 

[Origen]

What you fail to see is that Stephen, like his Master, was offering his spirit (Greek pneuma), expressed through a character marked by supreme courage, faith, and wholehearted commitment to God, as a sacrifice on Christ’s altar.

You have twisted this beautiful expression into one of self-interest, which shows the destructive nature of false teaching.

Stephen did display supreme courage, faith, and commitment, but he also had a God-given soul [spirit]. We read that God created the first man's physical body from the dust of the earth. In Gen. 2:7, we read that God then "[...]breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving man something. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is the breath of God which is the soul [a spirit], the soul as life. It is the breath of the Spirit of God that becomes a living spirit in man: God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it. That's why we have reason and morality and animal-brutes don't.

Stephen's soul [spirit], given to him by God, was within his physical body. When he knew he was about to physically die, he said to the Lord, "receive my spirit [soul]!", and then he fell asleep, which is another way of saying that he physically died. His immortal soul [spirit], however, returned to God Who gave it (Ecc. 12:7) to receive judgment, as what happens to every soul upon physical death of their body (Heb. 9:27, Matt. 12:46-37, 2 Cor. 5:10). A soul will either be judged to have won eternal life with God in Heaven or eternal life separated from God in Hell, of their own free will.

πνεῦμα​

Forms of the word
Dictionary: πνεῦμα, -ματος, τό
Greek transliteration: pneuma
Simplified transliteration: pneuma

Numbers
Strong's number: 4151
GK Number: 4460

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 379
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-3c(4)

Gloss: wind, breath, things which are commonly perceived as having no material substance; by extension: spirit, heart, mind, the immaterial part of the inner person that can respond to God; spirit being: (evil) spirit, ghost, God the Holy Spirit

Definition: wind, air in motion, Jn. 3:8; breath, 2 Thess. 2:8; the substance spirit, Jn. 3:6; a spirit, spiritual being, Jn. 4:24; Acts 23:8, 9; Heb. 1:14; a bodiless spirit, specter, Lk. 24:37; a foul spirit, δαιμόνιον, Mt. 8:16; Lk. 10:20; spirit, as a vital principle, Jn. 6:63; 1 Cor. 15:45; the human spirit, the soul, Mt. 26:41; 27:50; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 7:34; Jas. 2:26; the spirit as the seat of thought and feeling, the mind, Mk. 8:12; Acts 19:21; spirit, mental frame, 1 Cor. 4:21; 1 Pet. 3:4; a characteristic spirit, an influential principle, Lk. 9:55; 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Tim. 1:7; a pervading influence, Rom. 11:8; spirit, frame of mind, as distinguished from outward circumstances and action, Mt. 5:3; spirit as distinguished from outward show and form. Jn. 4:23; spirit, a divinely bestowed spiritual frame, characteristic of true believers, Rom. 8:4; Jude 19; spirit, latent spiritual import, spiritual significance, as distinguished from the mere letter, Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6, 17; spirit, as a term for a process superior to a merely natural or carnal course of things, by the operation of the Divine Spirit, Rom. 8:4; Gal. 4:29; a spiritual dispensation, or a sealing energy of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; the Holy Spirit, Mt. 3:16; 12:31; Jn. 1:32, 33; a gift of the Holy Spirit, Jn. 7:39; Acts 19:2; 1 Cor. 14:12; an operation or influence of the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:3; a spiritual influence, an inspiration, Mt. 22:43; Lk. 2:27; Eph. 1:17; a professedly divine communication, or, a professed possessor of a spiritual communication, 1 Cor. 12:10; 2 Thess. 2:2; 1 Jn. 4:1, 2, 3

 

[Hiddenthings]

Stephen did display supreme courage, faith, and commitment, but he also had a God-given soul [spirit].

I'm sorry to see that you've been misled by this teaching. From here, your response appears to slip into confirmation bias, and it's disappointing that there's little genuine engagement with the message of Acts 7.

What you're revealing is just how deep this deception runs, it leads people to believe they possess something they do not. Even more concerning, it shifts the burden back onto God, as if he owes salvation to those who believe themselves worthy of it.

You couldn't discern Stephens Spirit
You failed to understand what it means to "fall asleep"
You failed to understand the death state
And much more....

If you ever want to enter the Word to gain insight I'm here for now.

God be with you and your reading

 

[Origen]

From here, your response appears to slip into confirmation bias [...]

Or, you're wrong.

What you're revealing is just how deep this deception runs, it leads people to believe they possess something they do not.

You say that each person isn't given a soul [spirit], and yet it's written "the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it". (Ecc. 12:7)

You couldn't discern Stephens Spirit
You failed to understand what it means to "fall asleep"
You failed to understand the death state
And much more....

Or, you're wrong.

God be with you and your reading

And with you.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Lazarus's soul couldn't have gone to Heaven after he physically died, because Jesus hadn't died and reopened the gates of Heaven yet. So, that means while Lazarus was physically dead, his soul would've been in Limbo, a dwelling place for souls going to Heaven but who couldn't yet enter it.

He was in Abraham's Bosom which is not being in limbo, and of course Abraham's Bosom is no longer there now that people can get born again.

Jesus explains this in His teaching about the rich man and Lazarus

You say that each person isn't given a soul [spirit], and yet it's written "the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it". (Ecc. 12:7)

It's very highly doubtful that someone claiming man has no soul could even be a Christian.

Why would they even bother with getting saved when they believe they'll cease to exist when they die?

That's like buying a firetruck when ya don't believe there is such a thing as fires

 

[Origen]

He was in Abraham's Bosom which is not being in limbo

"Limbo" and "Abraham's Bosom" can be used interchangeably because it's the same place.

and of course Abraham's Bosom is no longer there now

That's because Jesus reopened Heaven to humans.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

"Limbo" and "Abraham's Bosom" can be used interchangeably because it's the same place.

Chapter and verse showing where Jesus called "Abraham's Bosom" limbo?

Shouldn't we stick to calling things as Jesus did?

 

[Origen]

Chapter and verse showing where Jesus called "Abraham's Bosom" limbo?

You already know the word "Limbo" isn't found in Scripture.

Shouldn't we stick to calling things as Jesus did?

Of course we should, and Jesus is a living being, just as you are, and after ascending to Heaven He continues to live, and when speaking to people has referred to Abraham's Bosom by the name of "Limbo" as well. If you don't believe that, and just want to use the name "Abraham's Bosom" that's fine too.