I SEE TWO CHURCHES IN ACTS 15

[bdavidc]

Precious friends, yes, we believe so, but the caveat is:

God's Precious Word Of Truth Must Be prayerfully / Carefully Rightly
Divided - ie.:

I have decided to follow Jesus?
So far, 2 responses have been given to this link: 1) Off-topic about Pontius Pilate, and 2) a general "live life and study" recommendation, Neither one addressing Exactly "Which Commandments Of God" we are to be
following...

-----------------------------------------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

@GRACE ambassador, here is the truth, plain and Scripture-first. You keep saying “rightly divided” like it is a master key that lets you lock parts of Jesus’ words in a back room. But “right division” is not permission to divide Christ, divide His commands, or divide His people. Paul said, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God… rightly dividing the word of truth” ~2 Timothy 2:15, and the same Paul said, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable” ~2 Timothy 3:16. The Bible is not a buffet where you call the parts you do not like “not for us.”

Let me put it like this. Some folks use “rightly divided” the way a man uses a knife. A knife can cut bread, or it can cut the rope that holds you to the dock. And then you wonder why you are drifting. When you separate believers from Jesus’ commands, you are cutting the rope.

You keep asking, “Which commandments are we to be following?” That question is already answered. God did not stutter. “This is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another” ~1 John 3:23. Jesus said, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” ~John 6:29. That is not vague. That is the doorway.

And once you belong to Christ, obedience is not negotiated. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. And He told His disciples to teach the nations “to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” ~Matthew 28:20. That is not “some things.” That is not “only Paul.” That is Christ speaking, and Christ is Lord.

Now, about this two-track talk that keeps popping up in your circle. Acts 15 does not show two churches running side by side with different rulebooks. It shows the church fighting for the purity of the gospel. Peter stood up and said God made “no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith” ~Acts 15:9. Then he said, “We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” ~Acts 15:11. That is one salvation. One grace. One people. If you try to split that into parallel churches, you are arguing with Peter.

And the Bible settles the “one body” issue without apology. “There is one body, and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism” ~Ephesians 4:4–5. God did not say two bodies. He did not say two faiths. He did not say two churches.

Here is the gritty bottom line. When somebody needs a system to explain why they do not have to obey Jesus’ words, that is not “right division.” That is self-protection dressed up as Bible study. Jesus warned about that kind of religion, the kind that honors God with lips while the heart stays untouched ~Matthew 15:8.

So yes, the Word of God settles the matter. Believe on the Son. Love one another. Walk in the Spirit. Obey Christ. Anything that requires dividing the church into separate programs to function is not coming from the text. It is being forced onto it.

 

[amigo de christo]

REPEAT: #1 - When was the Cross first Applied to Salvation???

You asking good questions my friend . Only folks do not know scriptures my friend . Most know only
what their pastors taught them .
You may as well bring him the answer .

 

[amigo de christo]

The twe;ve were preaching the gospel of the kingdom not Paul's gospel

the twelve were preaching the gospel of the kingdom , to the jews first
later the same preaching of the gospel of the kingdom would be also preached to the gentiles .
Paul was not given ANOTHER gospel of anything . HE was given the v ery same gospel of the very same JESUS and HIS KINGDOM
that he had once persecuted . Lets read the bible for ourselves and not through the lens of other men please .
Peter first was given the message by GOD to go to the gentiles . SAME GOSPEL he preached to them as well .
Goodness men have made a mess of th ings .

 

[bdavidc]

This wasnt revealed before Paul and the formation of the body of Christ

@Doug, this is where your argument finally shows its hand.

You are no longer arguing about verses. You are arguing that unity in Christ did not exist until Paul, and that everything before him operated under a different church. Scripture does not allow that.

Paul never says the body of Christ began with him. He says the mystery was revealed to him. Those are not the same thing. “Which in other ages was not made known… as it is now revealed” ~Ephesians 3:5. Revealed does not mean created. Light turning on does not mean the room did not exist before.

Before Paul ever preached, Peter stood up and said God made “no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith” ~Acts 15:9. That is body language before Paul explains it. Same faith. Same cleansing. Same people.

Before Paul wrote Romans, Peter preached forgiveness through believing in Christ’s name ~Acts 10:43. Before Paul wrote Galatians, the church was already called “the church of God” ~Acts 8:1. Singular. Not churches. Not programs.

You keep saying the church in Jerusalem was “only Israel,” yet Luke says Gentiles were added in Antioch by the same Lord ~Acts 11:21, and Scripture says the Lord “added to the church daily” ~Acts 2:47. The text never pauses to say, “Now forming a different body.”

And this is the key point you keep stepping around:
Paul never treats Jewish believers as belonging to a different organism. He says Gentiles are “fellowheirs, and of the same body” ~Ephesians 3:6. Same body means there was not another one running alongside it.

Yes, Paul was given clarity. Yes, he explained it fully. But he did not invent a second people of God. He preached the same Christ, the same cross, the same grace. “Is Christ divided?” ~1 Corinthians 1:13.

So let’s be honest and biblical.
Revelation progressed. Redemption did not duplicate.
Clarity increased. The body did not multiply.

“There is one body, and one Spirit” ~Ephesians 4:4.
Scripture says that after Paul explains the mystery, not to erase what came before, but to confirm what God had been doing all along.

The Word of God settles it.

 

[amigo de christo]

i suspected this but wasnt sure looks like we just to agree we disagree

my advice to any and all who preach t his two gospels thing
is that we heed not one word outta such lips that dare to utter it .
Now to the trenches . itS always been ONLY one gospel of one Kingdom and that of CHRIST and OF GOD
given first to the jews then also SAME ONE later to the gentiles .
As it was revealed to peter on the rooftop .
And later paul would be given the same IDENTICAL gospel as well and he preached it to every jewish synagogue
wherein were both g reeks and jews present . As i am pretty sure you do agree my friend .
Folks need to really get back into simply reading and enjoying the bible for themselves .

 

[amigo de christo]

REPEAT: #1 - When was the Cross first Applied to Salvation???

Who first picked up that cross and did so FOR OUR SALVATION . WHo also said
LEST a man picks up his cross and follow me HE cannot be my desciple .

 

[amigo de christo]

@Doug, this is where your argument finally shows its hand.

You are no longer arguing about verses. You are arguing that unity in Christ did not exist until Paul, and that everything before him operated under a different church. Scripture does not allow that.

Paul never says the body of Christ began with him. He says the mystery was revealed to him. Those are not the same thing. “Which in other ages was not made known… as it is now revealed” ~Ephesians 3:5. Revealed does not mean created. Light turning on does not mean the room did not exist before.

Before Paul ever preached, Peter stood up and said God made “no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith” ~Acts 15:9. That is body language before Paul explains it. Same faith. Same cleansing. Same people.

Before Paul wrote Romans, Peter preached forgiveness through believing in Christ’s name ~Acts 10:43. Before Paul wrote Galatians, the church was already called “the church of God” ~Acts 8:1. Singular. Not churches. Not programs.

You keep saying the church in Jerusalem was “only Israel,” yet Luke says Gentiles were added in Antioch by the same Lord ~Acts 11:21, and Scripture says the Lord “added to the church daily” ~Acts 2:47. The text never pauses to say, “Now forming a different body.”

And this is the key point you keep stepping around:
Paul never treats Jewish believers as belonging to a different organism. He says Gentiles are “fellowheirs, and of the same body” ~Ephesians 3:6. Same body means there was not another one running alongside it.

Yes, Paul was given clarity. Yes, he explained it fully. But he did not invent a second people of God. He preached the same Christ, the same cross, the same grace. “Is Christ divided?” ~1 Corinthians 1:13.

So let’s be honest and biblical.
Revelation progressed. Redemption did not duplicate.
Clarity increased. The body did not multiply.

“There is one body, and one Spirit” ~Ephesians 4:4.
Scripture says that after Paul explains the mystery, not to erase what came before, but to confirm what God had been doing all along.

The Word of God settles it.

And indeed the WORD OF GOD shall ALWAYS settle it . TO the trenches one and all .

 

[Ezra]

this is where doug is coming from https://graceambassadors.com/doc/GABF_StatementOfFaith.pdf

 

[David in NJ]

@GRACE ambassador, here is the truth, plain and Scripture-first. You keep saying “rightly divided” like it is a master key that lets you lock parts of Jesus’ words in a back room. But “right division” is not permission to divide Christ, divide His commands, or divide His people. Paul said, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God… rightly dividing the word of truth” ~2 Timothy 2:15, and the same Paul said, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable” ~2 Timothy 3:16. The Bible is not a buffet where you call the parts you do not like “not for us.”

Let me put it like this. Some folks use “rightly divided” the way a man uses a knife. A knife can cut bread, or it can cut the rope that holds you to the dock. And then you wonder why you are drifting. When you separate believers from Jesus’ commands, you are cutting the rope.

You keep asking, “Which commandments are we to be following?” That question is already answered. God did not stutter. “This is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another” ~1 John 3:23. Jesus said, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” ~John 6:29. That is not vague. That is the doorway.

And once you belong to Christ, obedience is not negotiated. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. And He told His disciples to teach the nations “to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” ~Matthew 28:20. That is not “some things.” That is not “only Paul.” That is Christ speaking, and Christ is Lord.

Now, about this two-track talk that keeps popping up in your circle. Acts 15 does not show two churches running side by side with different rulebooks. It shows the church fighting for the purity of the gospel. Peter stood up and said God made “no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith” ~Acts 15:9. Then he said, “We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” ~Acts 15:11. That is one salvation. One grace. One people. If you try to split that into parallel churches, you are arguing with Peter.

And the Bible settles the “one body” issue without apology. “There is one body, and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism” ~Ephesians 4:4–5. God did not say two bodies. He did not say two faiths. He did not say two churches.

Here is the gritty bottom line. When somebody needs a system to explain why they do not have to obey Jesus’ words, that is not “right division.” That is self-protection dressed up as Bible study. Jesus warned about that kind of religion, the kind that honors God with lips while the heart stays untouched ~Matthew 15:8.

So yes, the Word of God settles the matter. Believe on the Son. Love one another. Walk in the Spirit. Obey Christ. Anything that requires dividing the church into separate programs to function is not coming from the text. It is being forced onto it.

BEAUITFUL - Thank You

@Doug and @GRACE ambassador

We are here for you with the Love of Christ and the Simplicity that is in Christ, so that we may be One Body in One Truth.

 

[David in NJ]

You asking good questions my friend . Only folks do not know scriptures my friend . Most know only
what their pastors taught them .
You may as well bring him the answer .

@bdavidc and @amigo de christo and @LoveYeshua

Please Bless @Doug and @GRACE ambassador by sharing your Gifting of explanation on how GOD established the Cross for JESUS to bear for our sins, BeforeHand, in the Torah/Moses.
Please show them where JESUS confirmed this passage of Moses/Torah as the Way to Salvation.

Numbers 21:4-9
Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.

Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

 

[David in NJ]

this is where doug is coming from https://graceambassadors.com/doc/GABF_StatementOfFaith.pdf

We all need to be Going to the Scriptures & Prayer & Faith = without argument against "It is written"

When we do, we will Come from Salvation.

 

[David in NJ]

'Subject Heading, 'I See Two Churches In Acts 15'

'Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh,
called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision,
which is made in the flesh by hands—
remember that you were at that time separated from Christ,
alienated from the commonwealth of Israel
and strangers to the covenants of promise,
having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ Jesus
you who once were far off have been brought near
by the blood of Christ.
For He Himself is our peace,
who has made us both one
and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,
that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two,
so making peace,
and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross,
thereby killing the hostility.
And He came and preached peace to you who were far off
and peace to those who were near.
For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,
but you are fellow citizens with the saints
and members of the household of God,
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
in Whom the whole structure, being joined together,
grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
In Him you also are being built together
into a dwelling place for God
by the Spirit.'
(Eph 2:11 ESV+)

Hello @Doug,

The Church which is the Body of Christ was still 'hid in God' until revealed by Paul in the prison epistles (Eph. 3:9). It is 'unsearchable' elsewhere. See Ephesians and Colossians with Philippians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, written from Paul, as The Lord's Prisoner 'for you Gentiles'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

The "Church" began in Genesis

Moses also was the Mediator on behalf of the Church in the Wilderness.

The revelation of the Church in the OT was given to Paul and to us = if you believe = Matthew 4:4

 

[Justified]

Gentiles arent in view here only scattered sheep Jews

So you say but provide no evidence or rational argument.

Yes only Israel are called sheep and Christ is their Shepherd. He will bring the divided nation of Israel into one nation. The Gentile nations that didnt bless believing Israel in the tribulation are the goats who will be judged at Christ"s return

That is not what the verses state. You’re not dealing with the actual wording of the verses; there is nothing in passage about blessing believing Israel. You need to deal with what is stated, not what you want to be stated.

 

[complete]

The "Church" began in Genesis

Moses also was the Mediator on behalf of the Church in the Wilderness.

The revelation of the Church in the OT was given to Paul and to us = if you believe = Matthew 4:4

'But He answered and said,
It is written,
Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word
that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'
(Mat 4:4; Deut.8:3)

Hello @David in NJ,

I do believe what is written in Matthew 4:4, as I do all the Word of God. both Old and New Testament.

* Moses said to the children of Israel, concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ:-

'The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet
from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me;
unto Him ye shall hearken;
(Deut. 18:15)

* God Himself said:-

'I will raise them up a Prophet
from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses),
and will put My words in His mouth;
and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.
And it shall come to pass,
that whosoever will not hearken unto My words
which He shall speak in My name,
I will require it of him.'
(Deu 18:18-19)

* Peter confirms this in Acts 3:22. and Stephen in Acts 7:37.

* The risen Lord said unto His disciples on the road to Emmaus:-

'These are the words which I spake unto you,
while I was yet with you,
that all things must be fulfilled,
which were written in the law of Moses,
and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me
Then opened He their understanding,
that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them,
Thus it is written, an,d thus it behoved Christ to suffer,
and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name
among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things.
And, behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you:
but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,
until ye be endued with power from on high.'
(Luk 24:44-49)

'Jesus cried and said,
He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me.
And he that seeth me seeth Him that sent Me.
I am come a light into the world,
that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not:
for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that His commandment is life everlasting:
whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.'
(Joh 12:44-50)

* Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for His word written and His Word living, in the person of Christ Jesus, our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord and Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris



.

 

[complete]

@David in NJ
The "Church" began in Genesis

Moses also was the Mediator on behalf of the Church in the Wilderness.

The revelation of the Church in the OT was given to Paul and to us = if you believe = Matthew 4:4

'That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened;
that ye may know what is the hope of His calling,
and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe,
according to the working of His mighty power,
Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead,
and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,
and every name that is named,
not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. '
Eph 1:17 -23)

Hello @David in NJ,

Following on from reply#134, regarding your comment in reply #132 (above).

The revelation concerning the church which is the body of Christ, was given to Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, to make known: Israel as a nation had gone away into the darkness of unbelief at Acts 28, and would be soon scattered among the nations (Acts 28). The Olive tree would therefore no longer be there to be grafted into. Israel was now Loammi, 'not My People', and would and will remain so, until they come to repentance, which has yet to take place. The church which is the body of Christ is independent of Israel as a nation, within which Israel therefore no longer has prior place, or ascendency, there is unity and equality of a kind that was not known before. Believers regardless of their nationality are equal before God in Christ Jesus. No longer partaking of the root and fatness of Israel's Olive tree, but nourished by Christ their living and glorified Saviour, Lord and Head.

This is a heavenly calling, which has it's inheritance far above all, in heavenly places, in Christ Jesus. Read Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon. Epistles written during Paul's imprisonment, in which the Church of the one body is made known.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Marvelloustime]

the twelve were preaching the gospel of the kingdom , to the jews first
later the same preaching of the gospel of the kingdom would be also preached to the gentiles .
Paul was not given ANOTHER gospel of anything . HE was given the v ery same gospel of the very same JESUS and HIS KINGDOM
that he had once persecuted . Lets read the bible for ourselves and not through the lens of other men please .
Peter first was given the message by GOD to go to the gentiles . SAME GOSPEL he preached to them as well .
Goodness men have made a mess of th ings .

@amigo de christo

 

[Doug]

we consider mid-Acts dispensationalists to be our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Thats good to hear

 

[Doug]

mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement implies there are different gospels, a gospel of the kingdom taught by Peter and a gospel of grace taught by Paul.

But the gospel of the kingdom is different from the gospel of Christ.
This can be shown by the fact Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom was at hand. That implies they were expecting something. They were expecting a restoration of the Davidic kingdom with Christ reigning.........[Acts 1:6 KJV] "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

 

[amigo de christo]

@bdavidc and @amigo de christo and @LoveYeshua

Please Bless @Doug and @GRACE ambassador by sharing your Gifting of explanation on how GOD established the Cross for JESUS to bear for our sins, BeforeHand, in the Torah/Moses.
Please show them where JESUS confirmed this passage of Moses/Torah as the Way to Salvation.

Numbers 21:4-9
Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.

Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

And as MOSES lifted up the serpent in the wilderness
so too must the SON OF MAN be lifted up
that all who do BELEIVE ON HIM shall not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE .
The peoples in MOSES day HAD to look upon the brazen serpent for to be saved from the plague .
WELL HE who has conqured DEATH , MUST be BELEIvED OUPON and unto all WHO LOOK UPON HIM they shall be saved .
THIS was NOT the doing of man
THIS was not planned by man .
BUT BY GOD ALL MIGHTY HIMSELF . HE who honors the SON honors the FATHER
but woe unto he who h onors not the SON for they DISHONOR THE FATHER Who sent the SON
to be the savoir of the world . Broad paths DO NOT and will NOT CUT IT . in fact
this broad sin accepting UNBELEIF accepting path so many think is love and is of G OD
IS THE BROAD PATH TO ONLY DESTRUCTION . GOD will NOT be DENIED and unto all who do so
THEY WILL BE denied . And if CHRIST be denied , BELIEVE YOU ME ONE AND ALL , GOD HAS BEEN DENIED .

 

[amigo de christo]

But the gospel of the kingdom is different from the gospel of Christ.
This can be shown by the fact Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom was at hand. That implies they were expecting something. They were expecting a restoration of the Davidic kingdom with Christ reigning.........[Acts 1:6 KJV] "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

according to men what you say is t rue , BUT NOT ACCORDING TO GOD .
My advice .
LET GOD BE TRUE but every man a liar , that ye may be JUSTIFIED in your sayings and overcome when thou art judged .