Identified With Christ

[Netchaplain]

“As He is, so are we in this world” (1 John 4:17). When Christ was crucified, we were crucified: “I am crucified with Christ” (Gal 2:20); when He died, we died: “For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God” (Col 3:3); when He was raised, we were raised: “raised us up together” (Eph 2:6). “When He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2).

 

[Axehead]

“As He is, so are we in this world” (1 John 4:17). When Christ was crucified, we were crucified: “I am crucified with Christ” (Gal 2:20); when He died, we died: “For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God” (Col 3:3); when He was raised, we were raised: “raised us up together” (Eph 2:6). “When He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2).

Yes, a death took place. What died in us? This is not a religious concept, something died. Can you name what it is?

During this process of regeneration, the thing that died (for that is what crucifixion does, it kills)) was replaced with something else. Can you tell us what that was?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I see you're referring to the 'exchanged life', NOT the changed life. SHALOM

 

[Netchaplain]

I see you're referring to the 'exchanged life', NOT the changed life. SHALOM

Yes, I see your familiar with the concept you mentioned. The exchanged life means it's the life of Christ being live through us by Him, instead of us trying to change our old nature and live like Him.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Yes, I see your familiar with the concept you mentioned. The exchanged life means it's the life of Christ being live through us by Him, instead of us trying to change our old nature and live like Him.

Have you read the work by Watchman Nee "The spiritual man"?

 

[Netchaplain]

Have you read the work by Watchman Nee "The spiritual man"?

Not yet. Most of my Dispensational exposure for the last twelve years has been mostly Miles J Stanford, who over the years has gleaned through many such teachers from the last three centuries and W Nee is included in some of his compiled materials.

Nee has much good applicable teaching, along with many other deeper-truth teachers, but it appears in his materials that he does not accept the ongoing existence of the sinful nature within the believer, but rather mistakenly, as many others are, admits of the "terminating of the old man" upon its crucifixion, which is not generally accepted within the teachings of dispensation.

My understanding is that the crucifying of the sinful nature (Rom 6:6) "is" ongoing until the first resurrection, meaning it is not dead to us, though we are dead to it (Col 3:3) concerning its rein (Rom 6:12, 14). Otherwise the believer would be void of the internal conflict of the "new man" and the "old man" (Rom 7:14-25), along with the Holy Spirit's opposition to it within the believer (Gal 5:17). I believe it is important to know that though this conflict exists, it does not effect our unity with God, but it does effect the condition of our fellowship with Him.

Understanding the position of the "old man" determines the understanding of the condition of the believer, which is tantamount for spiritual growth in Christ, as is the case concerning many other misunderstood Bible doctrines, which is so prevalent among many of today's believers.

Though many Christians at this time lack understanding in many spiritual-growth teachings of Scripture, it doesn't affect their essential teachings concerning salvation; but rather, it slows the spiritual-growth progression. As before mentioned, the union of the believer and God (salvation) cannot be altered, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29 NKJV), but the fellowship in the union is altered by our understanding of the spiritual-growth principles in Scripture.

His Best for Our Worst

 

[ScottAU]

Not yet. Most of my Dispensational exposure for the last twelve years has been mostly Miles J Stanford, who over the years has gleaned through many such teachers from the last three centuries and W Nee is included in some of his compiled materials.

Nee has much good applicable teaching, along with many other deeper-truth teachers, but it appears in his materials that he does not accept the ongoing existence of the sinful nature within the believer, but rather mistakenly, as many others are, admits of the "terminating of the old man" upon its crucifixion, which is not generally accepted within the teachings of dispensation.

My understanding is that the crucifying of the sinful nature (Rom 6:6) "is" ongoing until the first resurrection, meaning it is not dead to us, though we are dead to it (Col 3:3) concerning its rein (Rom 6:12, 14). Otherwise the believer would be void of the internal conflict of the "new man" and the "old man" (Rom 7:14-25), along with the Holy Spirit's opposition to it within the believer (Gal 5:17). I believe it is important to know that though this conflict exists, it does not effect our unity with God, but it does effect the condition of our fellowship with Him.

Understanding the position of the "old man" determines the understanding of the condition of the believer, which is tantamount for spiritual growth in Christ, as is the case concerning many other misunderstood Bible doctrines, which is so prevalent among many of today's believers.

Though many Christians at this time lack understanding in many spiritual-growth teachings of Scripture, it doesn't affect their essential teachings concerning salvation; but rather, it slows the spiritual-growth progression. As before mentioned, the union of the believer and God (salvation) cannot be altered, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29 NKJV), but the fellowship in the union is altered by our understanding of the spiritual-growth principles in Scripture.

I don't think your view is consistent with what the Scriptures actually state.

I'd like to first make the point that it does not matter what I believe for...

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

What the Scripture asserts is what matters. My opinion is just that, "an opinion." What is important is that "my opinion" is conformed to the truth revealed in Scripture.

Paul wrote this...

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

It does not say "is being crucified" or that the "body of sin is being destroyed." Rather is says "is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed" and it is in the context of "serving sin."

In the very next verse Paul states very clearly...

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul does not say "dying" but "dead."

Likewise Paul writes...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In that verse Paul does not say he is "being crucified" he plainly states that he "is crucified."

Likewise later in his letter he writes...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Paul did not write that the flesh is "being crucified," rather he writes that is "has been crucified."

Another related passage written by Paul is this...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

It is in the circumcision of Christ that the body of sins are put off. We are buried with Him (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4) in order to be raised with Him. For this to occur a real death must take place and not a partial death.

A partial death or gradual crucifixion of the flesh would be a double-minded state where one is attempting to serve two masters and Jesus said such a thing is not possible.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Light and darkness do not mix.


Paul is pretty clear on this when he discusses grace and the new birth in Rom 5:20-21, Rom 6:1-7.

First Paul establishes that when sin abounds that it is indeed true that grace abounds even more which is a demonstration of the mercy and longsuffering of God. Yet Paul asks the question of...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

His answer is...

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul then explains how we die with Christ, having our old man crucified with Him in order to have the body of sin destroyed and it is through this that we are set free from the bondage of sin. Hence...

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul then goes on to explain the acting out of this condition by teaching...

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The above is the walk of a true Christian. It is through the blood of Christ that we are released from the dominion of sin (wages of sin is death) and have our consciences purged, but it is through us dying with Christ that we are set free from the literal bondage of sin.

You see Jesus Christ purchased us from sins dominion by His blood and this gives us the opportunity to change masters. It is through repentance and faith that we forsake the one master in order to be a slave to another which is Christ.

Paul teaches that whom we actually obey reveals who we actually belong to.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

It is by the grace of God that we have the opportunity to access the free gift of eternal life but we cannot access if we refuse to change whom we serve. Whom we serve reveals whom our true master actually is.

Look at what paul wrote there...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

In that passage "being made free from sin" was resultant of "obeying from the heart." This is Paul describing the shift from one master to the other. Jesus already purchased us and has given us the Minsitry of Reconciliation but we have to do our part and actually enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Christ in order for true reconciliation to take place (Heb 10:19-22). This is why John would write...

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The cleansing can only take place if we walk in the light as He is in the light. It is impossible to walk in the light unless the old man is crucified once and for all. The rebellion to God has to cease.

Remember to be reconciled to God is to be returned to favour. We are the offending party, not God. Thus we have to forsake that which is an offense to God, namely rebellion. It is the old man who walks in rebellion, carnal and sold under sin.

As new creations in Christ we have been redeemed from all iniquity and made pure and thus we can be taught like children by our Father in heaven. God leads and we follow and the end result will be holiness without which no-one will see God.

 

[Axehead]

Amen, there Scott. I find your view much more consistent with the Scriptures.

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. Ezekiel 36:25a

Some take the view that one cannot be free from sin, just forgiven. In many places one sees the motto: "Christians aren't perfect just forgiven." The acceptance of imperfection and unrighteousness seems to be the norm for the church. What this motto really says to the world is, "I am a sinner just like you, but I'm forgiven and you are not." The emphasis is put on forgiveness instead of righteousness. Many have the attitude of a Christian minister who was in an adulterous relationship; when confronted he responded, "Every night before I go to sleep, I just ask the Lord to forgive me."

Is there more than forgiveness? Is there freedom from sin? Many respond to these questions by talking about the sin nature in the believer, saying one can never be free from sin because sin will always be in him until he dies. They say the righteousness of Christ in no way changes the carnal nature, neither does the carnal nature affect the divine nature. Here man finds himself in a schizophrenic dualism of confusion and failure. The emphasis is upon "saved IN sin" rather than "saved FROM sin". One finds himself living in a two story house with no connecting stairway. On one floor there can be no sin, while on the other floor there is nothing but sin.

In seeking a Biblical position let us consider the following; First, there IS actual cleansing from sin. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to CLEANSE US from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" (1 John 1:9). So, here is the step BEYOND FORGIVENESS; there IS CLEANSING from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin (v 7). When one is cleansed, he is SET FREE. The cleansing comes through a process of repentance, as "we walk in the light as He is in the light" (vs 7).

Second, there is release from the corrupt nature, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead IS FREED FROM SIN." Rom 6:6-7. Just as Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world, so sin must die in me. Are you committed to total freedom from sin? You ask, "Do I believe I can reach a point where I CANNOT sin?" No, but I believe one can reach a point where they ARE FREE NOT TO SIN.

Third, there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit that renews the human nature. "He saved us...by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an infusion of God's love, and invasion of God's Spirit, a penetration of truth and righteousness, and an emancipation from sin. Only the Holy Spirit can reach the depth of man's being and bring radical change. God promised this as part of the New Covenant. God promised those in the New Covenant:

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:25-27

Christ came to make men righteous. This is more than a legal reckoning of faith; rather, righteousness is to be experienced as a work of the Holy Spirit. This is radical and immediate. The Holy Spirit will come as a fire to purge from all defilement, as a knife to circumcise the heart, and as a scribe to write God's laws on your heart. "Christ in you, the hope of glory", is the Holy Spirit in you bringing forth His righteousness (Colossians 1:27).

Axehead

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Being identified with Christ is not so black and white. People with a burning passion have more spirit- they are the ones called greater in Heaven. They aren't tormented with worldly affairs, constantly struggling with what people want to hear and issuing watered down teaching, or living in fear of what will become of them on Earth in their works. They just do it: they go there and do not let anything stop it.

Many go on and talk about how being born again keeps one from sinning, or one refrains from sinning. In truth, it's not just about refraining from sinning, it's about that burning passion and doing the great works God wills. If one wants to settle for less, then less they get. I would rather be a doorman in Heaven then dwell in a tent with the wicked.

And if you do nothing at all, what real faith do you have?

Truth 101

 

[Rex]

Let me comment on this topic If you will.

Romans 8:1-11

To understand these verses we need to understand the context of verse 4 is dependent on the previous verse 3

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:
On account of sin he did what?
He condemned sin in the flesh,
not death yet just sin, remember that.

4 that
the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do
not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

It is threw Jesus keeping the law, Threw his sinless life we live, "the rightest requirement is meet, and he condemned SIN in the flesh. Not that we are or become sinless but because are sins are remembered no more. Sin under the law is no longer imputed. Now read on it has nothing to do with the flesh it's all a condition of the mind the changing of the heart not the changing of the flesh.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

There is noting in these verses that indicates the flesh will be made sinless, the reason is sin brings death just as was said by God in the beginning, the day you eat of it you shall surly die. Sin, being the verb of action in the eating, or infringement of the law leading to death.

Now Paul tells us that sin and death entered into the world. Now we do not inherit sin but our flesh has all inherited death. look at the bold below.
The implication is our flesh is forever cursed it will never inherit immortality or the righteousness of God. God said you "it the old man the flesh" will surly die, it will always be cursed, Paul said our New Spirit and flesh are always at war with one another.
Gen 6:3
Gal 5:17
Romans 7:18
Romans 7:23


Romans 5:12Therefore,
just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through
sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless
death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned
in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to
come.

I believe that death was the inheritance to all men to all flesh from Adam and sin leading to death was further propagated through the coming of the law, Paul also mentions this as well, but I'm trying to get to my point and you all know the verse addresses. But the bold blue above never the less death reigned even over those who had not sinned

Now my point is that the flesh was cursed from the beginning and will never inherit or be full brought under subjection to the law. We received it from Adam we are born with it and it will always be destine towards death the grave never being in compliance with our new inter man as we see here below. Notice what he says first, he affirms the ground work I hopefully just laid, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Nor does our perishable flesh ever inherit the new imperishable inter man.

50Now
I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,52in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the
trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we
will be changed.53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But
when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal
will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is
written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Death, the sting of sin will never be overcome in our bodies until we put on the imperishable, at this point the original curse death and sin that entered the world, and we inherited from Adam will be over come. In that, we will never be free from sin or death until we put on the imperishable. What is changed is our nature our inter man is changed not our flesh, we will always continue to struggle as long as we are bound to the flesh of mortal man, the inherited flesh from Adam, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned. We can not concur death "the result of sin from Adan or our own sin as well" in our current fleshly tent.

 

[ScottAU]

Axehead,

It was a joy to read your post. It is truly uplifiting to read the words of a fellow sojourner who understands what being set free indeed truly means.

What you said about the part the Holy Spirit plays is so key. I often think of a human being like a light globe which has the potential to shine brightly, yet for it to do so it has to be plugged into the electric source. Likewise we must be plugged into Christ otherwise we cannot shine.

 

[Rex]

I think I heard the story about those who justify themselves.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Isaiah 64:6


And please remember I never said we should quit bringing our flesh into submission, only that we will never win the war.

 

[ScottAU]

I do have a few comments on the opening of Romans chapter 8, in particular the first 4 verses.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus was able to condemn sin in the flesh by walking in complete victory over sin. He did this as an example for us so that we to can walk as he walked. Thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us when we too walk after the Spirit. It is the "Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ" which sets us free from the law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death? Well it is simply "you sin you die" hence...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eternal life is through Jesus Christ when we ABIDE in Him.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

This is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which Paul speaks of in Rom 8:2.

Paul wrote...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul had died to self and had surrendered his will to God. Thus it was not Paul's will but God's will, exactly the same as the example Jesus gave us...

Luk_22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Thus Paul lived but he didn't live for it was Christ that lived in him and the life that he now loved in the flesh he lived by the faith of the Son of God. What kind of faith was that? It was the faithfulness of one fully yielding to God, ie. not my will, but thine, be done.

This was the faith of Abraham...

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

A faith in which Abraham walked.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

A faith where Abraham was pursuaded in His mind that God would deliver on His promise.

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

It is in like faith that the law is established in our hearts (Rom 3:31) by which we walk after the Spirit and fulfill the righteousness of the law by this faith (Rom 8:4) for faith works by love (Gal 5:6) and love fulfills the law (Gal 5:14).

 

[Netchaplain]

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

My post concerning everything related to the sinful nature is that since it continues to influence the believer (because it's still there), its crucifixion is still restraining it. The only parts destroyed are its damning curse and its governing influence, but not its presence and non-ruling influence.

If while walking along we run into something that knocks us down and the only clue to what it was is the OM imprint on our forehead, it will be plenty safe to assume it stands for the "old man"; and unless we identify this condition, instead of seeing it coming and proceeding onward, it will continue to knock us down. This is the same analogy as the presence of a hornet in the car. There's no concerned threat because you know its stinger has been removed.

The atoning work of Christ alone has "condemned sin" (Rom 8:3), instead of us; and all our works, which are of continued repentance, is the result of His goodness (Rom 2:4).

True spiritual growth comes from identifying the continual need of our condition, while believing in our provided position.

 

[Rex]

Jesus was able to condemn sin in the flesh by walking in complete victory over sin. He did this as an example for us so that we to can walk as he walked. Thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us when we too walk after the Spirit. It is the "Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ" which sets us free from the law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death? Well it is simply "you sin you die" hence...

Interesting concept,

He did this as an example for us so that we to can walk as he walked.

I'll remind you that Jesus had no earthly Father, so in days gone by many looked for the God /man that was was to come, being both man born of Mary and God conceived by God.

Paul said that man could not meet the righteous requirements of the law, now compare your Mother and Father with His and tell me He expects us to walk sinless in our fallen flesh? If this were possible them Jesus never needed to come and die in the likeness and sharing of the flesh. He could have simply empowered us with the HS and bin done with it. I explained above mankind was cursed both flesh and soul. We are redeemed in Spirit our heart and soul but look forward to the redemption of our flesh, that could not meet the requirements of the law.

Are you able to take every thought into captivity? have you meet this law as well? Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his.

It is the "Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ" which sets us free from the
law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death? Well it is
simply "you sin you die" hence...

I see this statement as Jesus forgave all my past sins but now that I'm a new being His grace no longer covers my inequities.
If this is the case then I don't want to be set free until the moment before I die.

Don't get me wrong I have tasted the glory to come by the power of the Holy Spirit but its simply not meant to be a permanent reality in the tent of flesh we now live in. Your ether going to die or be changed in a moment, when we lose the old man "the flesh" and put on the new.

 

[Netchaplain]

Hi Rex - Your posts are very direct, unpretentious and accurate concerning the indwelling sin of the believer and I would like to share a couple things with you; and I know you know that it's never out of contending with you, but would like your opinion concerning them.

I've learned that Christ's obedience to the Law was, not to impute it to anyone but to "end" it (Rom 10:4) so the believing Jews could say they were no longer under it (the unbelieving Jews no longer have a present covenant, but will later). To Israel, "the righteous requirement of the law" (Rom 8:4) did not intend obedience because, as you've indicated, perfect obedience to the Law was an impossibility for the Jew, or any man--but Christ; nor was any man expected to live perfectly by it.

This means "the righteous requirement of the law" (Rom 8:4 NKJV) was only death for disobedience and this is what freed, not just believing Jews but all who believe. The atonement for sin wasn't in His obedience but in His sacrificial death, which fulfilled the death requirement of the law, not by us but "in us" (Rom 8:4 NKJV).

It wasn't His perfect obedience to the Law in His earthly life which imputed righteousness to anyone, but rather was to display His qualification of being the only spotless sacrifice and through His death and resurrection His righteousness is imputed to believers (1 Cor 1:30); which also "destroyed" (Rom 6:6) the damning and ruling power (not it presence) of sin, but not its presence.

I also wanted to share that everyone born after Adam and Eve being created does inherit the sin nature and I hope you do not mind if I use what John Gill comments on this because I believe you'll get more out of it from him than me:

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression . . ." (Rom 5:14):

"Even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." This does not exclude the dominion of death over such who had sinned after the likeness of Adam, but rather confirms its power over them; nor does it intend adults who did not sin in the same manner, nor against the same law, as Adam did.

But it designs infants, not yet guilty of actual sin; and therefore since death reigns over them, who only holds and exercises his dominion by virtue of sin, it follows, that they must have original sin in them; the guilt of Adam's transgression must be imputed to them and the corruption of nature from him, derived unto them, or it could not reign over them. A child of a year old, the Jewish doctors say, has not tasted the taste of sin, that is, has not committed actual sin, but the true reason of their dying is here suggested by the apostle, which is the transgression of Adam."

Adam was the progenitor on the sin nature for everyone after him; "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom 5:19).

It's good to see your posts and God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Axehead]

Hi Everyone,

This is really a great discussion and a much needed one at that. We know that Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. Note that He condemned sin, not the flesh. There is nothing wrong with the physical body that God created. He said in Genesis, "and it was good".

So, what is the "Flesh" as depicted in the New Testament?

Greek word, sarx, is translated "flesh" and the word is used approximately 150 times in the New Testament. It also has various meanings. Let's look at them.

Physical, creaturely flesh.

• 1 Co_15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Physical, human body.

• Mat_26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
• John_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
• 2Co_12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
• Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Metaphorical

• John_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Humanity, Mankind

• Luke_3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
• Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
• Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
• Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Physical heritage as in descendants

• John_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
• Rom_4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
• Rom_9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
• Rom_9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
• Gal_3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Able to be Tempted (senses, desires)

• Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (human body), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (human body):

Marital Union

• Matt_19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
• Eph_5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh (human body); but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
  Eph_5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh (metaphorical, spiritual), and of his bones.
  Eph_5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh (marital union).
  

Behavior contrary to the character of God

• Gal_5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
• Sinful and Selfish - Rom_7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
• Patterns and habits ingrained in the flesh - Rom_7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
• Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
• Propensity and inclination of the flesh to sin - Rom_13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
• Enslaved to the flesh - Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
• Denying Self(ishness) - Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh (deny selfishness) with the affections and lusts.

We can see in the preceding verses that "Flesh":

• is not equivalent to spiritual depravity.
• is not referring to our spiritual conditon.
• is not inherent, intrinsic, or innate within man.
• is not some spiritual "component" we are born with in addition to our physical body.
• is not a generating source of evil within the individual.
• is not to be equated with satan.
• does not cancel out the completeness of spiritual regeneration.
• is not a divided ingredient in man; "hunk of evil; dirty old man."

We do not see anything like this referring to the flesh in the NT.

Our "Flesh" and desires are are to come under the control of the Holy Spirit. God does not eradicate the ability to desire that He created us with. Our fleshly body is able to desire and God-given desires are what God intended. Flesh is related to desires. The Holy Spirit now leads us to put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Life of Christ.

Tit_2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Through sin, when we were the children of wrath and alienated from the "commonwealth of Israel", our desires become warped, twisted and we developed (over time) personalized patterns of indulgent desires. We are tempted under these desires (James_1:13). And they become compulsive, obsessive ruts of behavior (addictions, besetting sins). Heb_12:2.

In Christ, our spiritual regeneration is complete: Col_2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: But, behavioral "flesh" patterns remain in our soul from our previous life before Christ. You were given a new heart, not a new body, flesh. And God will bring you into greater and greater wholeness in your mind, will and emotions which is the walk of sanctification. His word will wash your mind and bring wholeness to your emotions and strengthen your will. Behavioral problems are not eradicated at conversion (perfectionism) and they are not eradicated in the Christian life (which would be progressive perfectionism). They remain throughout our earthly life. Gal_5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Flesh does not become better, good or reformed and flesh should not be identified with "human nature, old nature, self-nature, sin-nature, Adam-nature, old man, old self, depravity, law of sin, sin-principle, inherent sin, etc. The "expressions of the "flesh" can only be overcome by the activity of the Spirit of Christ (Gal_5:16, 1 John_4:4, II Pet_1:3) and the flesh cannot be overcome by self-effort, suppressionism or crucifying the body (masochism).

 

[Rex]

Flesh does not become better, good or reformed and flesh should not be identified with "human nature, old nature, self-nature, sin-nature, Adam-nature, old man, old self, depravity, law of sin, sin-principle, inherent sin, etc. The "expressions of the "flesh" can only be overcome by the activity of the Spirit of Christ (Gal_5:16, 1 John_4:4, II Pet_1:3) and the flesh cannot be overcome by self-effort, suppressionism or crucifying the body (masochism).

I have to disagree, what we are attempting to know or describe is where does the union of the flesh and our spirit end and begin. From your perspective the flesh is completely inanimate. I have already pointed out that the flesh is perishable and can not be joined to the imperishable. Paul clearly says that death and the sting of sin will not be over come until the perishable puts on the imperishable being our new body. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58

You also seem to be going in circles

Flesh does not become better, good or reformed

If this is true, and it is, then why did you previously say,

Our
"Flesh" and desires are are to come under the control of the Holy
Spirit. God does not eradicate the ability to desire that He created us
with. Our fleshly body is able to desire and God-given desires are what
God intended. Flesh is related to desires. The Holy Spirit now leads us
to put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Life of Christ.

Paul never says the flesh comes under the control of the HS.
Here lies the answer it is not that the flesh has been changed or regenerated it is the regeneration and infusion of the HS that wars and resist the flesh.
BUT the flesh we live in will never be brought into a unity with the Spirit 1 Corinthians 15:50 as you seem to insist upon. The flesh doesn't come under the control of the Holy Spirit It is you, us, we that are instructed to resist the temptations of the flesh in our new nature.

Gal 5
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.17For
the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against
the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may
not do the things that you please.18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,21envying,
drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you,
just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will
not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Romans 8 here we see again, by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For
if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit
you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 8:10 here we see again their is no life giving Spirit in the flesh as he also said in Gal 5;:50

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Romans 8:10
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
If Christ is in you the body is dead, it is not regenerated it is not under the influence of the HS.

Romans 7:21-23 here we see again the flesh and the Spirit do not play together well and never will.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Philippians 3
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,[a] rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Gal 3:3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

 

[forrestcupp]

My post concerning everything related to the sinful nature is that since it continues to influence the believer (because it's still there), its crucifixion is still restraining it. The only parts destroyed are its damning curse and its governing influence, but not its presence and non-ruling influence.

If while walking along we run into something that knocks us down and the only clue to what it was is the OM imprint on our forehead, it will be plenty safe to assume it stands for the "old man"; and unless we identify this condition, instead of seeing it coming and proceeding onward, it will continue to knock us down. This is the same analogy as the presence of a hornet in the car. There's no concerned threat because you know its stinger has been removed.

The atoning work of Christ alone has "condemned sin" (Rom 8:3), instead of us; and all our works, which are of continued repentance, is the result of His goodness (Rom 2:4).

True spiritual growth comes from identifying the continual need of our condition, while believing in our provided position.

I think I agree with what you're saying here. The Bible clearly says in 2 Cor 5:17 that the old man has passed away and all things have become new. And I've seen a lot of people talk about Romans 6 and Romans 8, but everybody just skips over Romans 7 where Paul says:

Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

We get a clue about the inner struggle from verse 22, where he talks about the inner man. I believe the explanation is in the fact that our spirits, souls, and bodies are not unified like God intended them to be when God created man. When we come to Christ, our spirits are resurrected, and we are born again of the spirit (John chapter 3). Our souls begin to be renewed (Rom. 12:2). But our bodies won't be glorified until His appearing (1 John 3:2). So in our inner man, we don't have any problem serving God. Our flesh (or bodies) will always have passions and urges. Your body doesn't know when an urge is right or wrong. Your body doesn't know the difference between having sex with your wife and having sex outside of marriage. It's your inner man and your mind that understands those things.

So the answer to Romans 7 is in the very next chapter. Romans 8 teaches us that our minds can either be set on the flesh, or on the Spirit. Romans 12:2 teaches us that even though spiritually we are a new man, our minds are in a transformation process of being renewed. So it's up to us to decide what to set our minds on. The good thing is that now we have the grace of God that teaches us to deny all ungodliness and worldly desires, and to live righteous lives (Titus 2:11-12). We have the Holy Spirit to give us the victory.

Thank God that when He appears, we'll be changed to be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. Also thank God that we are being changed even now from glory to glory.

 

[Axehead]

I have to disagree, what we are attempting to know or describe is where does the union of the flesh and our spirit end and begin. From your perspective the flesh is completely inanimate. I have already pointed out that the flesh is perishable and can not be joined to the imperishable. Paul clearly says that death and the sting of sin will not be over come until the perishable puts on the imperishable being our new body. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58

The body is amoral. It is our choices to use our members as members of unrighteousness or righteousness. The same members can be used for righteousness sake.

Rom_6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

So, yes. The body of flesh is amoral in itself. It is just a "carton" and must be directed by one's mind and will.

You also seem to be going in circles
If this is true, and it is, then why did you previously say,

Paul never says the flesh comes under the control of the HS.
Here lies the answer it is not that the flesh has been changed or regenerated it is the regeneration and infusion of the HS that wars and resist the flesh.
BUT the flesh we live in will never be brought into a unity with the Spirit 1 Corinthians 15:50 as you seem to insist upon. The flesh doesn't come under the control of the Holy Spirit It is you, us, we that are instructed to resist the temptations of the flesh in our new nature.

Gal 5
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.17For
the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against
the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may
not do the things that you please.18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,21envying,
drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you,
just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will
not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Where "flesh" is being used here is that there are patterns of sinful action and reaction within the desires of our soul. Remember, our soul (mind, will, emotions) is being renewed and sanctified. You cannot sanctify the "old man". He must die. It is the soul of man that is engaged in the process of sanctification with the Lord. And Gal 5:24-25 is not talking about the physical body. Your body is not bad because it needs to sleep, or relieve itself, or needs to eat. Your soul (mind, will, emotions) dwells on immorality, impurity, sensuality, et al (all the desires of the "flesh"). So, in reading Gal 5:22, we see that every facet of Christ’s character is available to us in the “fruit of the Spirit” (Gal. 5:22,23). Therefore, it is understood from vs 25 that these are selfish desires emanating from the heart (soul) and our minds are being renewed and we are maturing in Christ so that our desires become His desires and our will comes into harmony with His will. (not my will but thy will be done). Our will is being strengthened by the Lord (in the power of His might) and our emotions are being stabilized in Him.

I respectfully differ with you regarding the human body. It is amoral and just an empty carton if you remove the soul of man where the lusts of the "flesh" emanate from. It is the soul of man (heart) that chooses to yield specific members of the body to sin or to righteousness.

Our body is corrupt in the sense that it is dying and decaying and one day we will put on incorruption. But to say the Body itself is evil is to fall into the same pit as Catholicism. Then we must flagellate our flesh (body) to bring it into submission.

Romans 8 here we see again, by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For
if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit
you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 8:10 here we see again their is no life giving Spirit in the flesh as he also said in Gal 5;:50

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Romans 8:10
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
If Christ is in you the body is dead, it is not regenerated it is not under the influence of the HS.

Romans 7:21-23 here we see again the flesh and the Spirit do not play together well and never will.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Philippians 3
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,[a] rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Gal 3:3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

I see and recognize all those scriptures but you must keep in mind when reading them that though the members of our body are yielded to unrighteousness, what exactly is doing the yielding of our bodily members to unrighteousness? Not the members of the body itself, but our soul (fleshly soul - fleshly, carnal mind, unstable emotions, lack of self-control in our will). The soul, needs healing and deliverance and renewing from various bondages and deceptions. The fleshly body does not call the shots. The fleshly, carnal soul does.

Paul is not talking about having confidence in the physical body, he is talking about having confidence in his fleshly soul, and all that he has gained by head knowledge and experience. If you remember the body by itself is amoral you will understand better when you read all these scriptures that it is the soul of man with it's old patterns, memory and imprints of sin that must come under the control of the Holy Spirit.

Ancient Christian writers often referred to the Christian experience of dipsychia, the divided soul or psyche, divided by the "desires of the flesh" and the "desires of the Spirit".

“Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:2,3). This is talking about our soul, not our body. Again, the obvious answer is to deny that the ongoing process of sanctification and perfection can be effected by any means other than the power of the Spirit of Christ. We cannot self-produce divine character by the “works” of self-effort and performance in accord with some behavioral standards of conduct and morality that have been codified into “Christian law.” You know, we get this all the time on this forum (and any forum for that matter).

All Christians are in the process of dealing with their idiosyncratic patterns of sinfulness and selfishness, but the means of overcoming our “indwelling sin” is not by legalistic efforts to conform, but by allowing Christ the Lord to overcome such by His character.

Writing to the Christians in Asia Minor, towards the end of his life, the apostle John noted the necessity of Christians being aware of and admitting to their sinful behavior patterns. He was combating the Gnosticism of his time that advocated an elitism whereby one could be spiritually elevated above all sin.

John replied, “If we (Christians) say (as the developing Gnostics say) that we have no sin (tendencies, propensities, or expression), then we are deceiving ourselves, and the Truth (Jesus Christ – John 14:6) is not in us” (I John 1:8). But “if we confess (Greek homologeo – agree and concur with God that our sin is contrary to His character) our sins, then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (applying the forgiveness that resulted from His redemptive sacrifice), and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (by the overcoming of presence Christ’s character in us)” (I John 1:9).

Jesus will not overlook our sin and selfishness while He is indwelling us. He would have to deny Himself as sin and selfishness are contrary to His character. Since we have a personal relationship with Him, Christ must be allowed to express Himself in us, otherwise we are quenching the Spirit refusing the sanctifying (and saving) work of God.

He will lovingly expose and root out all that is not of Him within us.

“All things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do” (Heb. 4:13)

In all of this, we must come into agreement with the Lord and yield our spirit, soul and body to the Lord.


A sure sign of being Christian is that the Lord Jesus Christ is functioning as Savior in the Christian, manifesting His “saving life” (Rom. 5:10) to “save us from our sins” (Matt. 1:21). As I said to "quench the Spirit" is to refuse this sanctifying
work of Jesus Christ. If we refuse His sanctifying work in us what are we doing except aborting the objective of the Lord's (Gen. 25:29-34).


A lot of people say no worries, you are still saved, but I am not so sure. There must be evidence in a person's life besides what he says with his lips, that Christ is dwelling in him. There must be fruit of his relationship with the Lord. Ok, I know I am getting off on a tangent, now.

Blessings to you, bro,
Axehead