Identified With Christ

[Rex]

I respectfully differ with you regarding the human body. It is amoral and just an empty carton if you remove the soul of man where the lusts of the "flesh" emanate from. It is the soul of man (heart) that chooses to yield specific members of the body to sin or to righteousness.

Our body is corrupt in the sense that it is dying and decaying and one day we will put on incorruption. But to say the Body itself is evil is to fall into the same pit as Catholicism. Then we must flagellate our flesh (body) to bring it into submission.

It is Paul in Romans 7 that identity's the members of his flesh as an evil.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I never mentioned the word evil, I posted Romans 7, I said our flesh cursed from the fall in the garden, as Paul said all men died from Adam to Mosses Romans 5:2-14 having never sinned, yet they did not escape death. God even went so far as to limit the number of years for a man before Abraham. They all died just as God said, to Adam, you will surly die, now If some had never sinned from Adam to Mosses why did they die as Paul said, because that is what we all inherited but now we have life through Christ.

I see and recognize all those scriptures but you must keep in mind when reading them that though the members of our body are yielded to unrighteousness, what exactly is doing the yielding of our bodily members to unrighteousness? Not the members of the body itself, but our soul (fleshly soul - fleshly, carnal mind, unstable emotions, lack of self-control in our will). The soul, needs healing and deliverance and renewing from various bondages and deceptions. The fleshly body does not call the shots. The fleshly, carnal soul does.

That was my point as well, you say that it is it HS that restrains the flesh, that is not so, it is the HS renewing your mind, a mind set on Christ that YOU choose not to walk after the flesh. That is what the scripture says I posted it in my previous post.
If I am in error the why does Paul also say

1 Cor 6:20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

The flesh and the spirit are at war with one another, we, our soul being the priest with-in our temple of flesh offer our bodies as living sacrifices by no longer conforming to the desires of the flesh. Which is your reasonable service.



We SHALL also bear the image

1 Cor 15
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bearthe image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the
trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So what is it that is still CORRUPTIBLE? That must be left behind? that will never be changed but only denied or steered by us, it is our flesh, and has been repeated by Paul, is in contradiction to the Spirit and always will be until we put on immortality, our new body.

 

[Netchaplain]

I think I agree with what you're saying here. The Bible clearly says in 2 Cor 5:17 that the old man has passed away and all things have become new.

Thank God that when He appears, we'll be changed to be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. Also thank God that we are being changed even now from glory to glory.

Hi FC and thanks for your support. I just wanted to point out that the "old things are passed away" doesn't refer to the "old man," which is the sinful nature, but to our old ways of living our life. My thread supports the ongoing existence of the "old man" in the believer. We just no longer have to live our life by its governing influence in our ultimate choices (Rom 6:12, 14).

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Axehead]

It is Paul in Romans 7 that identity's the members of his flesh as an evil.

Yes, but these members that he is talking about are not a hand, or foot, or ear, or leg. These are amoral. He is talking about the heart, (the soul, mind, will and emotions). The seat of our "choosing" and our "actions" and "thoughts". (Matt 15:18)

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I never mentioned the word evil, I posted Romans 7, I said our flesh cursed from the fall in the garden, as Paul said all men died from Adam to Mosses Romans 5:2-14 having never sinned, yet they did not escape death. God even went so far as to limit the number of years for a man before Abraham. They all died just as God said, to Adam, you will surly die, now If some had never sinned from Adam to Mosses why did they die as Paul said, because that is what we all inherited but now we have life through Christ.

That was my point as well, you say that it is it HS that restrains the flesh, that is not so, it is the HS renewing your mind, a mind set on Christ that YOU choose not to walk after the flesh. That is what the scripture says I posted it in my previous post.
If I am in error the why does Paul also say

1 Cor 6:20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

The flesh and the spirit are at war with one another, we, our soul being the priest with-in our temple of flesh offer our bodies as living sacrifices by no longer conforming to the desires of the flesh. Which is your reasonable service.

We SHALL also bear the image

1 Cor 15
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bearthe image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the
trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So what is it that is still CORRUPTIBLE? That must be left behind? that will never be changed but only denied or steered by us, it is our flesh, and has been repeated by Paul, is in contradiction to the Spirit and always will be until we put on immortality, our new body.

Since the "old man" died (Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.) the “flesh” is related to behavior from our soul. It relates to the psychological function of the soul. The “flesh” is related to the “desires” of man within the soul, which we see in the phrases, “fleshly desires,” and “desires of the flesh” (Rom. 13:14; Gal. 5:24; Eph. 2:3; I Peter 2:11). The “flesh” refers to how these desires are patterned toward selfishness and sinfulness within the soul. This is not synonymous with the "old man", "sinful nature", etc. That has been dealt a death blow at the cross and by the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit residing in man.

These “flesh” patterns are developed and nurtured (dare I say) throughout the experiences of our lives, and they are unique, individual, personalized patterns of selfish action or reaction. Some become deep-seated habits of addictive, obsessive, and compulsive behavior, sometimes called “besetting sins” or “strongholds of sin.” It seems everyone has at least one that they struggle with. All human beings have developed these patterns of “fleshly desires,” with the sole exception of Jesus Christ.

And every Christian still has these “flesh” patternings of selfishness and sinfulness in the desires of his soul, even though completely regenerated spiritually.

Flesh is connected with desires and we should recognize that everyone has been created with a full compliment of God-given human desires in their soul. Even these desires are amoral. They are not wrong in themselves. They were intended to be used by God to express Himself in our behavior (fruit). What I am talking about are desires to be loved and accepted, to belong, to be nurtured and provided for. Man has a desire for security and order, to be known and not a loner. To communicate and be communicated to. Man has a desire for hope and meaning and purpose and he desires peace and contentment. God even gave us desires for excitement and uniqueness (identity). So, all these things are not bad and are purposed to be used by God in expressing His character through us. It all depends on who we yield our members to, the Father of Lights or the father of lies.

When God said, "Ye shall surely die", Adam and Eve did die that very minute, spiritually. And if a day with the Lord is as a thousand years then they died in that very first "day", physically, too. God covered all the bases! They did not live past a thousand years.

You know, we were even given desires for freedom and worship. Desires for appreciation of beauty, desires to be creative, desires to be motivated and to be responsible. We have desires to work and to achieve and very important, desires for significance. Interestingly, we only find our identity and true significance in Christ. All these desires were given to us but if not fulfilled in Christ then they are used wrongly.

And of course we cannot forget the basic desires given to us to eat, drink, sleep, and for sexual expression. There is nothing
wrong with any of these God-given desires. They are all amoral on their own. It all depends on how the soul expresses them.

I just want to make sure you are not calling amoral things (body, God-given desires), immoral. What is immoral Jesus told us. They proceed from the heart (soul) of man. Mat_15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is how I understand the flesh through my understanding of God's word, the illumination of the Holy Spirit and my own life experience.

I am totally open to other views as this was not my first view of the "flesh" in my Christian walk.

Seems the Lord is always asking me to adjust something.

Axehead

Hi FC and thanks for your support. I just wanted to point out that the "old things are passed away" doesn't refer to the "old man," which is the sinful nature, but to our old ways of living our life. My thread supports the ongoing existence of the "old man" in the believer. We just no longer have to live our life by its governing influence in our ultimate choices (Rom 6:12, 14).

God's blessings to your Family!

When you say "old ways of living our life" are you talking about old behaviors and patterns of the soul? Are you talking about inward attitudes or outward actions? Are you saying these things have passed away (even though our soul has not even started its renewal process in the word and it's walk of sanctification, yet)?

If I am reading you right, you are saying the "old man" / "sin-nature" is still alive, but all of our old ways of thinking and our soulish behavior and deeply seated patterns have all passed away? If you are saying that (please confirm, because I am not sure), then I don't think I can agree with that. I have never met a Christian who was completely renewed in their mind, will and emotions the first day they were born-again. And that Jesus has no need to bring up any lingering selfish tendencies to the Believer's attention. That would mean that there is no need for the walk of sanctification. At least this is how I am understanding you. Please feel free to correct any misunderstandings I am having.

Axehead

 

[Rex]

Yes, but these members that he is talking about are not a hand, or foot, or ear, or leg. These are amoral. He is talking about the heart, (the soul, mind, will and emotions). The seat of our "choosing" and our "actions" and "thoughts". (Matt 15:18)

Your joking right? He is talking about what apposes the MIND he is speaking of the flesh. Look at verse 23 " I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind" Your honestly going to try to convince me that Paul is not speaking about his body? How about verse 24? "who will deliver me from the body of this death." Didn't I say above repeatedly that our flesh is cursed with death? How about verse 18 I suppose hes speaking about his mind as well?

Romans 7
18 For
I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for
to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find
not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Since the "old man" died (Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.) the “flesh” is related to behavior from our soul. It relates to the psychological function of the soul. The “flesh” is related to the “desires” of man within the soul, which we see in the phrases, “fleshly desires,” and “desires of the flesh” (Rom. 13:14; Gal. 5:24; Eph. 2:3; I Peter 2:11). The “flesh” refers to how these desires are patterned toward selfishness and sinfulness within the soul. This is not synonymous with the "old man", "sinful nature", etc. That has been dealt a death blow at the cross and by the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit residing in man.

These “flesh” patterns are developed and nurtured (dare I say) throughout the experiences of our lives, and they are unique, individual, personalized patterns of selfish action or reaction. Some become deep-seated habits of addictive, obsessive, and compulsive behavior, sometimes called “besetting sins” or “strongholds of sin.” It seems everyone has at least one that they struggle with. All human beings have developed these patterns of “fleshly desires,” with the sole exception of Jesus Christ.

And every Christian still has these “flesh” patternings of selfishness and sinfulness in the desires of his soul, even though completely regenerated spiritually.

Now your presenting your own understanding as well as starting to sound like another member here that likes to use the word "pattern" or "patterned after" when he can't find scripture to support his opinion. These verse you quoted read that the new soul mind and heart concisely opposes the flesh, Each one speaks about the new inter-man opposing the flesh.

(Rom. 13:14; Gal. 5:24; I Peter 2:11). The “flesh” refers to how these desires are patterned toward selfishness and sinfulness within the soul.

If the flesh as you say refers to the old nature of the heart and mind; then there is no mind or heart that has receive the Spirit of God
There is no born again experience no new man, Paul clearly says that the mind is not the problem in Romans 7 his desire is to do good. I know you and dragonfly believe a man born of spirit can also be indwelt with unclean spirits, but again that's not what the scripture says. Its a wonderful diversion to believe that difficult times or inter man conflicts are of the devil but again that's not what James or the scriptures say.

The “flesh” refers to how these desires are patterned toward selfishness and sinfulness within the soul.

Take another look, pattern is just a nice way to say I don't believe what is said.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: <- the born again man
23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, <- his members wars against the born again MIND and Heart
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? <- the members of his body

 

[Axehead]

Your joking right? He is talking about what apposes the MIND he is speaking of the flesh. Look at verse 23 " I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind" Your honestly going to try to convince me that Paul is not speaking about his body? How about verse 24? "who will deliver me from the body of this death." Didn't I say above repeatedly that our flesh is cursed with death? How about verse 18 I suppose hes speaking about his mind as well?

Romans 7
18 For
I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for
to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find
not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I believe Paul is talking about an unregenerate man. Mind would be warring with the "old man" "sin nature" that was crucified at regeneration.

The other belief is that he was talking about himself in a regenerated state. I believe the former, not the latter.

If the latter, then what died, what was crucified, what was buried in the likeness of His death?

Now your presenting your own understanding as well as starting to sound like another member here that likes to use the word "pattern" or "patterned after" when he can't find scripture to support his opinion. These verse you quoted read that the new soul mind and heart concisely opposes the flesh, Each one speaks about the new inter-man opposing the flesh.

I never said, God gave us a new soul. He is going to renew our mind through His word, and bring our will into conformity with His will and stabilize our emotions upon His word. This is the maturing process, the sanctifying process.

If the flesh as you say refers to the old nature of the heart and mind; then there is no mind or heart that has receive the Spirit of God
There is no born again experience no new man, I know you and dragonfly believe a man born of spirit can also be indwelt with unclean spirits, but again that's not what the scripture says. Its a wonderful diversion to believe that difficult times or inter man conflicts are of the devil but again that's not what James or the scriptures say.

Take another look, pattern is just a nice way to say I don't believe what is said.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I did not say the flesh refers to the old nature. I said the old man = what people call the sin nature.

The Spirit of God is joined to our spirit. That is what the Scriptures say. Our new heart is the ongoing sanctifying work of the Spirit of God "making all things new" by renewing our heart (mind, will, emotions).

 

[Rex]

I believe Paul is talking about an unregenerate man. Mind would be warring with the "old man" "sin nature" that was crucified at regeneration.

The other belief is that he was talking about himself in a regenerated state. I believe the former, not the latter.

If the latter, then what died, what was crucified, what was buried in the likeness of His death?

I disagree with the bolded text above

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: <- the born again man
23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, <- his members wars against the born again MIND and Heart
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? <- the members of his body


What died and was changed was his heart of stone his mind.
He, Paul is now a new creature imperishable inside a perishable body

See my post above for greater detail


Look carefully at Eph 2:3 both the mind and the flesh are at work in the children of disobedience.

2 in
which you once walked according to the course of this world, according
to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the
sons of disobedience, 3 among
whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature
children of wrath, just as the others.

Look what Paul says in Romans 7 about his mind, (For I delight in the law of God after the inward man)

 

[Axehead]

I disagree with the bolded text above

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: <- the born again man
23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, <- his members wars against the born again MIND and Heart
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? <- the members of his body


What died and was changed was his heart of stone his mind.
It is now a new creature imperishable inside a perishable body

See my post above for greater detail

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The "wife" is that inmost self or personality (soul) which is the same under all conditions of existence: I myself.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The first husband is "our old man", our unregenerate self; and as long as he was alive we were under his law (law of sin and death). The death of the first husband is the crucifixion of the "old man" with Christ. The wife set free through her first husband's death (old nature) and thus become dead to the law of that husband (law of sin and death).

Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The soul is set free by the crucifixion of the old man and consequently, made dead to the law. The first husband being the "old man" verse 6: "Having died in that (old man) whereby we were held, the "old man" being the bond by which alone the law had dominion over us in our soul.

For Paul's simile to work the first husband should correspond to what the second husband is (a person, not an impersonal law).

1st husband - mind and "flesh", unregenerate being, old man
2nd husband - Christ

Even verse 2 shows a distinction between the first husband and the law so they cannot both be the same.
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

The first marriage was between the "unregenerate old man"; and this nature has been brought to an end by our unregenerate self being united to Christ in His death, whereby the I, myself (soul) is set free for union with Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Know ye not (the the old life is impossible) by reason of our union (oneness) with Christ?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Know ye not that the old service is impossible by reason of our union with Christ?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? Know ye not, that the old union is impossible because or our new union with Christ?

In Chapter 5, Paul mentions two Heads, Adam and Christ, in ch. 6, two Masters, Sin and Christ and in ch. 7 two Husbands, our Old Man and the Risen Christ.

Paul is teaching in ch. 7 (using marriage, the highest form of earthly union) as to what the fullest form of union with Christ really means.

The penalty of the law has been paid and we have been crucified with Christ. Our former connection with the law has gone for ever and a new Bridegroom claims our heart as He betroths us to Himself forever.

This is the beauty of what Christ has done for us.

The Adversary does not want the Christian to know the width and breadth and depth and height of what God has done form them in delivering them from their "wretched man".

Chapter 7 is not the conflict of two natures in the believer, but a very different struggle that you need to keep in mind when you read 7:23-24 (along with all of 7), namely, one between the corrupted nature (old man) and the mind in a man whose mind has been fully instructed in the Law of God, who fully approves of it and who endeavored through the flesh to obey it.

Paul is telling us two great things: That in ourselves, apart from grace there dwells nothing that God can call good and that the law cannot recover us from our evil nature and change our dispositions (character).

On one hand Paul (then Saul) delighted in God's law; on the other hand, he saw a different law in his members warring against the law of his mind and bringing him into spiritual bondage. It is important to say that the "inward man" is not the same as "the new man" nor is "the mind" ever used of the renewed nature. The mind is the simply the mind and when man is regenerated the mind has to be renewed.

4 laws are mentioned in Chapter 7.

Law of God - moral law whether written or unwritten
Law of Sin - which reigns over man since the fall
Law of the Mind - which is the moral sense in man
Law of the members - which leads to the individual person falling under the law of sin

The outcome of all this contradiction and conflict is a cry of agony. "O wretched man that I am".

Axehead

 

[Rex]

On one hand Paul (then Saul) delighted in God's law; on the other hand, he saw a different law in his members warring against the law of his mind and bringing him into spiritual bondage. It is important to say that the "inward man" is not the same as "the new man" nor is "the mind" ever used of the renewed nature. The mind is the simply the mind and when man is regenerated the mind has to be renewed.

I completely disagree and I take no pleasure in correcting you, but the more you persist in proving your belief about Romans 7 the more verses you trample under foot.

The MIND is very much a part of the new man

Romans 12:2
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Eph 4
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,-->> 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Col 3
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

notice in blue the action the new minded / man is to exercise against the flesh.

NOW READ
2 Cor 4:16
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

 

[ScottAU]

The wretch in Romans 7 is carnal and sold under sin. Jesus Christ did not come to redeem people from all iniquity and purify them in order that they remain carnal and sold under sin.

Paul is clearly speaking about a man under the law who is under conviction. It is the example of a man who cannot defeat the flesh in the flesh despite his desire to do so, hence in Romans 8:2 it specifically states that it is the "Spirit of life in Jesus Christ" which sets one free. The law could not set anyone free, rather it is faith in the power of God (Col 2:12).

When Jesus said that He can make people "free indeed" (Joh 8:36) he meant exactly that.

To imply that salvation leaves one a wretch is to deny the power of God.


Rom 12, Eph 4, and Col 3 are doctrinal teachings of Paul. He is not teaching that these things occur some time later after salvation, he is teaching what it means to be a Christian.

Read Eph 4 and 5 together and you'll see Paul clearly warning that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom, thus he is admonishing the reader to righteousness. It is clearly evident by the content in his letters that corruptions were creeping into the churches and Paul was making sure their doctrine remained sound.

 

[Rex]

The wretch in Romans 7 is carnal and sold under sin. Jesus Christ did not come to redeem people from all iniquity and purify them in order that they remain carnal and sold under sin.

Seriously a carnal man begins a statement--> that he delights in the law of God after the inward man, That's as likely as pigs having wings.
Can you give me an example of carnal men delighting in the law of God from somewhere with-in the pages of scripture

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: <- the born again man
23 But

I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, <- his members wars against the born again MIND and Heart

and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? <- the members of his body

 

[ScottAU]

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: Paul is reinforcing the doctrine according to godliness, ie. what being a true follower of Christ means. Paul is not teaching that Christian's come into the faith still in their sins and that later on they slowly change. Yes they grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ (perfecting of the saints) but this only occurs AFTER having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2Pet 1:3-4).
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Here Paul begins his warning.
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Paul reinforced not to be deceived about this. Christian's CANNOT do these things lest they be apportioned their part with the unbelievers.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Seriously a carnal man begins a statement--> that he delights in the law of God after the inward man, That's as likely as pigs having wings.
Can you give me an example of carnal men delighting in the law of God from somewhere with-in the pages of scripture

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: <- the born again man
23 But

I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, <- his members wars against the born again MIND and Heart

and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? <- the members of his body

Rex, you are teaching that salvation is "positional" and not "actual." That is why you are separating "what the man does" and "who the man is."

Did Israel positionally leave Egypt?

Does a prisoner positionally leave his cell when set free?

Yet a Christian is only "positionally redeemed" yet still a slave to sin in "actuality" ?

Has the Romans Wretch escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust? There is no possible way.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Look at the picture that John paints of the differences between those who are born of God and those who are children of the devil...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Just imagine a scenario where Satan wants to pervert the teachings of Christ in order to convince multitudes of people that they are "saved" when in fact they "are not." Is such a thing a possibility?

Jesus did warn that many would be deceived.

 

[Axehead]

Yes, Paul a Pharisee of the Pharisees, delighted in the law as a carnal, unregenerate man.

Philippians 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

The mind before regeneration is carnal and enmity towards God.

Romans 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And once we are regenerated, old mad dead, the mind still has to be renewed by the washing of the word.

And Rex, I'm not fragile and won't take offense. You can correct me.

Peace in Christ,
Axehead

 

[Rex]

Paul is not speaking about a carnal man he closes his teaching with verse 25 look at the opening statement
now look at the closing statement

Paul is not speaking of a carnal man, but your both welcome to believe he is

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


he goes right into 8 and elaborates on ch 7

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:

Notice what kind of flesh God sent his son in.

 

[ScottAU]

Paul is not speaking about a carnal man he closes his teaching with verse 25 look at the opening statement
now look at the closing statement

Paul is not speaking of a carnal man, but your both welcome to believe he is

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

If this man is in captivity to the law of sin has he been set free yet? Could this be why he is calling out for deliverance?

Is serving the law of God with the mind but the law of sin with the flesh a good thing?

Does the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ leave one a captive to the law of sin?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Is a captive free?

 

[Rex]

If this man is in captivity to the law of sin has he been set free yet? Could this be why he is calling out for deliverance?

Is serving the law of God with the mind but the law of sin with the flesh a good thing?

Does the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ leave one a captive to the law of sin?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Is a captive free?

I can see your post are more attune to distracting from the topic rather than engaging in it.


these two question don't even make sense,

Is serving the law of God with the mind but the law of sin with the flesh a good thing?

Does the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ leave one a captive to the law of sin?

Why not comment on what is being said instead of diving into hypothetical questions that are spawned from your hypothetical conclusion.


Or try reading what has been said, I'm certain I spoke about your silly questions

 

[ScottAU]

I didn't realise my questions were silly or that I was distracting.

I'll try and rephase it better.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


In verse 23 a claim is made of being captive to the law of sin. Yet in Rom 8:2 it states that the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ sets one free from the law of sin (and death). Therefore the man in Rom 7:23 needs to be delivered from captivity and this deliverance is via the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

The man crying out for deliverance in Rom 7:24 clearly has not been delivered from the law of sin. He is captive to the law of sin thus I don't think it is unreasonable to claim that he is carnal and "sold under sin." Being sold under sin is being captive to sin is it not?

Isaiah made this statement...

Isa_52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Paul made this statement...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I don't believe that being redeemed from all iniquity and made pure leaves an individual "captive to the law of sin," Thus Paul in Romans 7:14-25 is speaking of a man who has not been redeemed yet, he is still clearly a slave to sin.

 

[Rex]

Paul
speaks
of a war waging within us between the spirit and the flesh. They both
have different agendas and entirely different natures. Galatians 5 tells
us what
the works of the flesh are (vs 19-21) and what the fruit of the spirit
are (vs
22-24). Many Bible scholars have put forward definitions of all the
terms used
in those verses. But the truth is that, whatever the definition of the
terms, we
can all recognize when someone is walking in the Spirit, and when
they're not. The question that is unanswered in most Christians' minds
is how to walk in the spirit.




Gal 5:21 states that those who practice the works of the
flesh have no part in the kingdom of heaven. To some it gives the impression
that whenever a Christian falls into sin, it disqualifies him or her from
eternal life. This is the last thing Paul intended to convey. Paul talks about a
liberty that comes from being saved by grace. Verse 13 suggests that we could
use that liberty as an occasion to the flesh, but we are advised not to. Thus
verses 19-21 and 22-24 are not talking about two categories of Christians, but
rather non-Christians vs. Christians. It is the unregenerate, who practice the
works of the flesh, that have no part in the kingdom of heaven.

After
one
is saved, there is a great internal struggle between the spirit (new
nature)
and the flesh (old nature). Some people argue that Christians don't have
a
sinful nature, but rather sinful propensities. What exactly is the
difference?
It sounds like they just learned the word "propensity" and thought it
was too good a word not to incorporate in their theology. Whatever
word you wish to substitute for nature, the spirit refers to the new
regenerate
nature which was created after God in true holiness and righteousness
(Eph
4:24). The flesh refers to the old sinful nature (propensities,
whatever).




The flesh is somehow related to the frailties and corruptibleness of this
physical body, since Paul elsewhere speaks of mortifying the deeds of the
body. However it is difficult to define what that relation is. All we know is
that when Jesus returns, He will transform our corruptible bodies to the
likeness of His glorious body (Phil 3:21), and when that happens, there will no
longer be any flesh influencing us to sin.



This
corruptible physical body, however, we have until we die. Thus the battle between spirit
and flesh will never cease in this life. There will always be one part of us
wanting to do that which feels good (but is wrong) and that part which we know
is right (but does not always feel good). At this point I must add that if one's
life is characterized as all flesh, and no spirit battling against that flesh,
one has to wonder whether one is genuinely saved.

 

[Axehead]

Seriously a carnal man begins a statement--> that he delights in the law of God after the inward man, That's as likely as pigs having wings.
Can you give me an example of carnal men delighting in the law of God from somewhere with-in the pages of scripture

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: <- the born again man
23 But

I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, <- his members wars against the born again MIND and Heart

and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? <- the members of his body

Rex,

It happens all the time. How often have you heard testimonies of people who have said they were "church goers" all their life, raised in Christian homes, went to Bible studies, worked in ministry and then one day, they realized with the help of the Spirit of God that they were not saved. They delighted in the Bible in their inward man (soul, not new man). They never experienced Romans 6 in their life. God knows how to grind a man down (or allow a man to be ground down by religion), until he realizes that he really has never experienced the peace of Christ, the freedom of the Holy Spirit and the love of God being shed abroad in their heart. Pride keeps them from admitting that they really are not OK!

That is the thing about the Scriptures. The legalist can make passages work for him as he looks at them through his experience (or rather lack of experience of the Word in his life). The Word of God is meant to be experienced, not analyzed. Religious men are very astute at wrenching and twisting the Scriptures to match their lack of experiencing them.

For those who have experienced the delivering power of God (Romans 6), they read Romans 7 and it makes perfect sense to them (the way Scott and I have written about it).

Others, like the person I first mentioned, interpret Romans 7 as a constant struggle with a "wretched old man" as NORMAL for Christianity. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Jesus said that, "The prince of this world cometh, and he hath nothing in me". We should be able to say the same thing as Christ lives in us. I am not saying we are without sin, but the "old man" is dead and gone, by the death of Christ.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

You say:
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? <- the members of his body (No, Romans 6:6, "body of sin", which is old man, sin nature, etc). This death is sin, spiritual death hence "body of sin" as in Roman 6:6. Body of sin is body of death. What else can it be? See Roman 7:23.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (Law of Sin in my members = Body of Sin)


Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Yes, Paul delighted in the law by his inward man when he was a Pharisee. Inward man here is not "new man". Unregenerate men and regenerate men both have an inward man. It is simply the soul.

You say:

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: <- the born again man (No, plainly his inward man, soul. Otherwise, Paul would say "new man")

NEW MAN is never mentioned in Romans 7 and so it should not be as the New Man is not being spoken of.


Many people think Romans 6 and 7 are chronological but Paul is backtracking. He does this many times in other epistles. In Romans 7 he is reflecting on his inward state before Christ.

All the best,
Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

Seriously a carnal man begins a statement--> that he delights in the law of God after the inward man, That's as likely as pigs having wings.
Can you give me an example of carnal men delighting in the law of God from somewhere with-in the pages of scripture

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: <- the born again man
23 But

I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, <- his members wars against the born again MIND and Heart

and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? <- the members of his body

Hi Rex - Again your on target and I like replying to your posts because they usually concern the meat-of-the-Word issues. I believe (as you do) the members in this context (Rom 7:23) are not the physical parts of the body but the members of "the body of sin" or sinful nature (Rom 6:6), which the Spirit "mortifies" (I believe He continually applies Christ's Cross to the "old man"): "Mortify (crucify) therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5).

The members of the "body of sin" is was leads to "the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13) and here the "body" is referencing the physical body by which the "deeds" or actions are performed. James uses the word "finished" as a done deed, which takes us to another location, but same subject. The reason each has an accountability to God is explained in James 1:13-15 by "every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (v 14). "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished (done deed, completed, performed), bringeth forth death." (v 15). "As the first sin of man brought death into the world" - JG. It's not the presence of sinful thoughts that make sin present, it is in the "conceiving" the "lust," which together makes sin present and the doing or "finishing" of it makes death present.

Rex, if you haven't used John Gill's commentary I suggest so (unless you don't like commentaries, in which case is a missing opportunity in my opinion) because after forty years of study I've found him to far outperform nearly all commentaries.

Here is a sample of his commentary which concurs exactly with one of your comments: "For I delight in the law of God,.... This an unregenerate man cannot do; he does not like its commands, they are disagreeable to his corrupt nature; and as it is a threatening, cursing, damning law, it can never be delighted in by him: the moralist, the Pharisee, who obeys it externally, do not love it, nor delight in it; he obeys it not from love to its precepts, but from fear of its threatening's."

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/ When you locate this site it will present the Bible books and chapters to access. When accessing a passage it defaults to Matthew Henry, with a list of multiple commentators directly underneath and there you can choose "Gill". Of-course it's occasionally helpful comparing them all but after continued use it will be evident that Gill is the most inclusive and in my opinion, the most accurate. Let me know what you think!

I also wanted to say to us all that how we treat one another in our communications is as important as what we share in them! "Speaking the truth in love" is the goal for growth in Christ: "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ" (Eph 4:15).

 

[Axehead]

Axehead,

It was a joy to read your post. It is truly uplifiting to read the words of a fellow sojourner who understands what being set free indeed truly means.

What you said about the part the Holy Spirit plays is so key. I often think of a human being like a light globe which has the potential to shine brightly, yet for it to do so it has to be plugged into the electric source. Likewise we must be plugged into Christ otherwise we cannot shine.

Hi there Scott,

I am very blessed by your posts, too and your understanding of the Word backed up by personal experience. So glad to have you here on CyB.


Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Axehead