If Eternal Security Is Conditional...

[Thankful 1]

All Christians sin! What a lie that is, the fact is a spiritual Christian will not sin. The only Christians that sin are baby Christians.



(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants inChrist. What I fed you with was milk,not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

All Christians sin! What a lie that is, the fact is a spiritual Christian will not sin. The only Christians that sin are baby Christians.



(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants inChrist. What I fed you with was milk,not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

You contradicted yourself within the first sentence. But, do you sin? Ever? Your perfect in your actions, thoughts, motives, and feelings? No offense but I doubt it.

All men sin. The difference is the reaction during, or after. The difference is the conviction, the repentence, and the desire to correct yourself. The fear that goes along with it is also different.

I'm not saying that Christians sin as a way of life, or even everyday (although, I'm sure if we knew whole heartedly we commit many sins throughout a day)

 

[Thankful 1]

You contradicted yourself within the first sentence. But, do you sin? Ever? Your perfect in your actions, thoughts, motives, and feelings? No offense but I doubt it.

All men sin. The difference is the reaction during, or after. The difference is the conviction, the repentence, and the desire to correct yourself. The fear that goes along with it is also different.

I'm not saying that Christians sin as a way of life, or even everyday (although, I'm sure if we knew whole heartedly we commit many sins throughout a day)

You are wrong. Whotold you that all people sin? Jesus called us to be a perfect as he is perfect. Can’t you see if Jesus called us to be perfect that he gave us the ability to become perfect?



(Matthew 5:48) “ Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



I will tell you that Jesus personally taught me, and he personally showed me scripture that tells us Christians are dead to sin.



A Christian does not deliberately commit a sin.



If one deliberately commits a sin he or she is at best a baby Christian.



(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants inChrist. What I fed you with was milk,not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?

 

[Joshua David]

All Christians sin! What a lie that is, the fact is a spiritual Christian will not sin. The only Christians that sin are baby Christians.



(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants inChrist. What I fed you with was milk,not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

And this is why Christians have become masters at justifying their own sin. For if Paul, the person who wrote over half of the New Testament still struggled with his sin nature, then you can bet that all of us struggle with ours as well.


Rom 7:14-17 [sup]14[/sup] We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [sup]15[/sup] I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [sup]16[/sup] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [sup]17[/sup] As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.


For those who say that they do not sin have a very convenient[font="'Charis SIL"] way around it. They justify everything they do so that it is not sin. [/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]Are we to struggle to live sin free? Absolutely, but we should never delude ourselves into thinking that we do not sin anymore. [/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]Joshua David[/font]

 

[Thankful 1]

And this is why Christians have become masters at justifying their own sin. For if Paul, the person who wrote over half of the New Testament still struggled with his sin nature, then you can bet that all of us struggle with ours as well.

Rom 7:14-17 [sup]14[/sup] We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [sup]15[/sup] I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [sup]16[/sup] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [sup]17[/sup] As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.


For those who say that they do not sin have a very convenient way around it. They justify everything they do so that it is not sin.

Are we to struggle to live sin free? Absolutely, but we should never delude ourselves into thinking that we do not sin anymore.

Joshua David

People read Paul so wrong. Peter warned us about that. You read where Paul uses his struggle with sin to show that with out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit/God a person does not have a chance to defeat Satan/sin. Not understanding at all what Paul was telling us.



Paul in Romans eight tells us how Christians are able to defeat Satan/sin.



Most people have no idea what it is to walk a spiritual walk with God. I share that a Christian does not sin, and very few people even know what I am talking about.



There is a walk with God that people don’t even know exists. I share about this walk and am told that I am of Satan, or crazy.



I can share scripture that tells people I am right, but man has twisted scripture so badly that he has made it say what it does not say.

 

[Butch5]

In defense of the OSAS side, the bible does say that nothing can pluck the believer out of Jesus' hand. So what does this passage mean? It's the passage that I never hear conditional security people reference.

And it also states that Jesus will leave the flock of sheep to find one lost sheep. These are just two passages that at least alude to OSAS.

I'm not on either side, I'm just trying to bring a balance to it.

There is no defense of the doctrine. First let me state that salvation isn't lost like one loses their keys, it is lost when one rejects Christ. Let's Look at the passages you presented

John 10:27-29 ( KJV )
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Here is the definition of the Greek word translated "Pluck"

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G726 ἁρπάζω harpazō Thayer Definition: 1) to seize, carry off by force 2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly 3) to snatch out or away

With this definition and the context of the passage it is clear that Jesus is not speaking of the individual who is being protected in God's hand, He is speaking of anyone else. It means to take by force, a person who leaves of his own accord is not plucked from God's hand but leaves willingly.

Regarding the lost sheep, it is just that a sheep, it is still one of Christ's sheep. The one who has rejected Christ is no longer one of His sheep.

On the surface those scriptures seem to be saying you can lose your salvation, or be damned for sinning after you're saved. If you go back and reread them, you'll notice the entire context was about the New covenant vs the Old.


It's saying, that you can't go on sinning and think that the sacrifice of animals will clean your soul. It's also saying that if you don't believe, even then all the sacrifices wont clean your soul.

I believe these scriptures were wrote specifically about people reverting back to the law of moses, rather than remaining in the faith of Jesus.

This isn't to say that you can do what you want anytime. That's obviously not okay, but, tell me this. Has anyone not sinned willfully?

You're correct about the context, it is the Law of Moses, however, the point is that if they turned from Christ back to the Law they would lose their salvation.

What does it mean to be sealed?


Eph 1:12-14 [sup]12[/sup]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. [sup]13[/sup]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[sup]14[/sup]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:29-31 [sup]29[/sup]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

[sup]30[/sup]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[sup]31[/sup]Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

What does being sealed mean? Can a seal be given and broken, given and broken, given and broken. If you take the verses in Hebrews to literally refer to the dispensation of Grace, then after you willingly sin just once after being saved, then you are done. You are lost and there in literally nothing that you can do about it. Is that what you really believe? Now if you start saying things like, "Well, no, what it is talking about is having a sinful lifestyle, or what it is talking about is sinning without repenting, or what it is talking about is .... ect." Well then you are really holding up to the literal interpretation, since it doesn't say having a sinful lifestyle, or sin without repenting, it says willfully sin. Now granted the term 'Falling away' does give you a little more leeway, but then you have to define what does fall away mean? Since you included this verse with the verse that talks about willfully sinning, does this mean that falling away means to willfully sin? And if you willfully sin, then are you unable to repent? And if you are unable to repent, then are you without hope?

So in the context of your salvation, what does being sealed mean to you?

Just a little historical research. A seal back in Jesus time when this was written, was a wax seal. Colored wax was heated up until it melted. The melted wax was then poured onto the parchment that was being sealed. Most times the wax had a engraved signet pressed into it, to identify the owner of the seal. Legally, only the owner of the seal could break the seal, and once the seal was broken, it could not be sealed. If a new seal was desired, the old wax had to be scrapped off and an entirely new seal had to be created.

So if we are sealed, legally who owns the seal? If the seal can be broken, what exactly does it take? And can you find any scriptural evidence to suggest that someone can be resealed?




Joshua David

Since you gave the explanation of the seal then you obviously know that the seal could be broken. The gave evidence to the recipient as to whether or not the document had been tampered with. It was not the person who sealed the document that broke the seal, it was the one who received the document. If the document arrived with the seal in tact, then the recipient knew that the contents were in fact genuine. If the seal had been broken, then it was possible that the contents had been altered and the genuineness of the document was unknown, The seal of the Holy Spirit, marks the believer as genuine and approved of God, however, that seal can be broken.

You said regarding sinning willfully, that if one sinned once willfully, they were doomed. Can you supply some grammatical evidential support for that statement or is that just your opinion?

And this is why Christians have become masters at justifying their own sin. For if Paul, the person who wrote over half of the New Testament still struggled with his sin nature, then you can bet that all of us struggle with ours as well.


Rom 7:14-17 [sup]14[/sup] We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [sup]15[/sup] I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [sup]16[/sup] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [sup]17[/sup] As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.


For those who say that they do not sin have a very convenient[font="'Charis SIL"] way around it. They justify everything they do so that it is not sin. [/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]Are we to struggle to live sin free? Absolutely, but we should never delude ourselves into thinking that we do not sin anymore. [/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]Joshua David[/font]

Have you considered that Paul may be describing himself prior to his conversion?

 

[Thankful 1]

A sin leading to death is any wrong doing that a spiritual Christian willfully commits.



A lie will send a Spiritual Christian to Hell.



(Acts 5:1-11) “There was another man, however, called Ananias. He and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, Peter said ‘now can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God. When he heard this Ananias fell down dead. This made a profound impression on everyone present. The younger men got up, wrapped the body in a sheet, carried it out and buried it.



About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had taken place. Peter challenged her, ‘Tell me was this the price you sold the land for? ‘Yes,’ she said ‘that was the price.’ Peter then said, ‘So you and your husband have agreed to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test! What made you do it? You hear those footsteps? They have just been to bury your husband; they will carry you out, too.’ Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in they found she was dead, and they carried her out and buried her by the side of her husband. This made a profound impression on the whole Church and on all who heard it.”

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

A sin leading to death is any wrong doing that a spiritual Christian willfully commits.



A lie will send a Spiritual Christian to Hell.



(Acts 5:1-11) “There was another man, however, called Ananias. He and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, Peter said ‘now can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God. When he heard this Ananias fell down dead. This made a profound impression on everyone present. The younger men got up, wrapped the body in a sheet, carried it out and buried it.



About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had taken place. Peter challenged her, ‘Tell me was this the price you sold the land for? ‘Yes,’ she said ‘that was the price.’ Peter then said, ‘So you and your husband have agreed to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test! What made you do it? You hear those footsteps? They have just been to bury your husband; they will carry you out, too.’ Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in they found she was dead, and they carried her out and buried her by the side of her husband. This made a profound impression on the whole Church and on all who heard it.”

So, are you without sin? Completely without sin? You never ever ever sin, you're in complete control of your emotions, you never have an evil thought and never ever give into temptation?

With all due respect, I'm just going to have to disagree with you on this whole subject.


And with this verse, I haven't found anyone that understands why these folks died.

 

[Thankful 1]

So, are you without sin? Completely without sin? You never ever ever sin, you're in complete control of your emotions, you never have an evil thought and never ever give into temptation?

With all due respect, I'm just going to have to disagree with you on this whole subject.


And with this verse, I haven't found anyone that understands why these folks died.

Why don’t you do yourself a great service? Stop disagreeing with me and open your mind and heart to hear what I am saying.



I am saying that a Spiritual Christian has defeated Satan/sin.



Don’t you want to defeat Satan? Do you want to spend the rest of your life being led by Satan?





(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

 

[timf]

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Duckybill]

In defense of the OSAS side, the bible does say that nothing can pluck the believer out of Jesus' hand.

It means no one can force us to forsake God. It does not mean that we can't choose to turn to a sinful life. OSAS is a doctrine of convenience to please and deceive, not a Biblical doctrine.

Luke 13:23-25 (NKJV)
[sup]23 [/sup]Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, [sup]24 [/sup]"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. [sup]25 [/sup]When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Everyone has sinned but Jesus. This Scripture is not referring to living a sinful life.

 

[Thankful 1]

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1 John 1: 8-10)[sup] “[/sup]If we claim to bewithout sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess oursins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us fromall unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in ourlives.”



You need to see John was saying ifone says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.



If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they notthen sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?



John later says:



(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertainsthis hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law,because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that inHim there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sinshas never seen Him or known Him. My children do notlet anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He isholy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was asinner from the beginning. It was toundo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins:because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begottenby God.”



(1 John 3:8) “Hewho does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinningfrom the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy thedevil's work”



Johntold us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and wereforgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.



Scripture goes on to say that if aperson who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we shoulddeliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice forthem. There is left only the dreadfulprospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyonewho disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of twowitnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son ofGod, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if itwere not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a farseverer punishment. We are all awarewho it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into thehands of the living God.”



(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who wereonce brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received ashare of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and thepowers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it isimpossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son ofGod and openly mocked Him.”

 

[Butch5]

A sin leading to death is any wrong doing that a spiritual Christian willfully commits.

Can you please supply some evidence to support this? I know you gave Ananias as evidence, but that does not state that a single willful lie sends one to hell, so it doesn't really support the statement you made. For instance, in the passage Peter specifically says he lied to the Holy Spirit.
Given your line of reasoning I would interested to have you explain whether or not you think Peter went to hell since he willfully lied three times regarding his knowing Christ.

 

[Butch5]

(1 John 1: 8-10)[sup] “[/sup]If we claim to bewithout sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess oursins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us fromall unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in ourlives.”



You need to see John was saying ifone says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.



If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they notthen sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?



John later says:



(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertainsthis hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law,because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that inHim there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sinshas never seen Him or known Him. My children do notlet anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He isholy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was asinner from the beginning. It was toundo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins:because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begottenby God.”



(1 John 3:8) “Hewho does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinningfrom the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy thedevil's work”



Johntold us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and wereforgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.



Scripture goes on to say that if aperson who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we shoulddeliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice forthem. There is left only the dreadfulprospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyonewho disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of twowitnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son ofGod, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if itwere not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a farseverer punishment. We are all awarewho it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into thehands of the living God.”



(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who wereonce brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received ashare of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and thepowers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it isimpossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son ofGod and openly mocked Him.”

That's not what John is saying. When John wrote 'If we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us' he was addressing Gnostic teaching. The Gnostics were people who claimed to be Christians yet they perverted Christian doctrine. They taught that Jesus the man was not the Christ. They taught that the Christ was a spirit that came to dwell in the man Jesus and left Him just before He went to the cross. It is these teachers that John speaks of when he says, 'they went out from us because they were not of us'. One of the doctrines of these teachers ( they had many different beliefs, such as today denominations) was the belief that the flesh was incapable of salvation. They believed that only the spirit could be saved. This lead to two lines of thinking, some lead ascetic lives and others lead immoral lives, their think was that since the flesh was incapable of salvation since it was corrupt, it didn't matter what the flesh did. Therefore, some of these teachers believed and taught that you could live any way you wanted, they believed one could go to pagan temple prostitutes one Saturday and come to church Sunday morning and be without sin. They said since it was the flesh that sinned and not the spirit they were without sin. John, however, argues no, not so, he says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.

Take notice to how John opens both his first epistle and his Gospel. Both state that Jesus is the word and the word was flesh, this is a refutation of the Gnostic doctrine that the man Jesus and the Christ were two different entities. Notice John's words.

1 John 1:1-2 ( KJV )
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us


John 1:1-4 ( KJV )
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


John 1:13-14 ( KJV )
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

No, Being forgiven for sin is "Not" being sinless. The sin may be forgiven but it was still committed.

 

[Thankful 1]

Can you please supply some evidence to support this? I know you gave Ananias as evidence, but that does not state that a single willful lie sends one to hell, so it doesn't really support the statement you made. For instance, in the passage Peter specifically says he lied to the Holy Spirit.
Given your line of reasoning I would interested to have you explain whether or not you think Peter went to hell since he willfully lied three times regarding his knowing Christ.

I am sure that the Holy Spirit had man put in the bible the account of Peter’s denial of Jesus, to show just how weak man is, just how much one needs to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.



Peter at the time of his denial of Jesus had not yet received the Holy Spirit. It is only with the indwelling of God that man is able to defeat Satan/sin.



Hebrews tells us that when a person who is spiritual deliberately commits a sin there is no longer any repentance for that person.



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[Joshua David]

Since you gave the explanation of the seal then you obviously know that the seal could be broken. The gave evidence to the recipient as to whether or not the document had been tampered with. It was not the person who sealed the document that broke the seal, it was the one who received the document. If the document arrived with the seal in tact, then the recipient knew that the contents were in fact genuine. If the seal had been broken, then it was possible that the contents had been altered and the genuineness of the document was unknown, The seal of the Holy Spirit, marks the believer as genuine and approved of God, however, that seal can be broken.



You said regarding sinning willfully, that if one sinned once willfully, they were doomed. Can you supply some grammatical evidential support for that statement or is that just your opinion?

Ok you make a very valid point as far as who broke the seal, but I would still say that if it is possible for our seal to be broken, by willfully sinning, as some have put forth, then once that seal is broken it can not be resealed.

So in your own opinion, what is the consequences of having our seal broken?

Heb 6:4-6 Heb 10:26-27

Now I agree with you, that it is not committing a sin willfully that breaks the seal, but it is the utter rejection of God that breaks the seal. My whole point was that if you say that to commit a willful sin is enough to break your seal then we are all lost. I try my best to live a sin-free life, but there are things that I still struggle with, and yes I will admit that there have been times that I have willfully sinned. Does this mean that I am no longer saved, that my seal has been broken? That is am lost forever? That no sacrifice remains for me? That all that remains is a fearful expectation of judgement and raging fire?

There are those Christians that may judge me thus, but I know it is not true. I love my Lord, and I am grateful for his saving grace. When I see a brother struggling with a sin, I do not condemn him. I do not cast him out. I try to strengthen him with encouragement, because I know that sometimes I have struggled with sin. Does this mean that I overlook his sin? No not at all. How can you fix a problem if you overlook it? But neither do I use the fact that he is struggling as an excuse to condemn him.

When Christians claim that they never sin, I believe that this is spoken from a spirit of pride. They look down at all the other 'lesser christians' who struggle with sin in pity that they are not as righteous as they are. They will never claim that they do this. But it is true none the less.

My comments about willingly sinning once is enough were directed more to them, as they claim that to willingly sin is enough to cost you your salvation.

[font="tahoma][size="2"]

Have you considered that Paul may be describing himself prior to his conversion?

[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]No, because there is nothing in the text that suggest he was talking about himself prior to his conversion, now if someone could put forth a good enough argument to suggest this, then I would consider it. Look at the tense that Paul is speaking. He is not talking about a struggle he had previously, as in before his conversion, but one that he has in his present time.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][/font][font="tahoma][size="2"]Rom 7:15-17 [sup]15[/sup] I do not understand what I do (Present tense). For what I want to do I do not do (He wants to do right all the time but he does, Present tense ) , but what I hate ( sin ) I do ( Present tense ). [sup]16[/sup] And if I do what I do not want to do ( If I sin ), I agree that the law is good. [sup]17[/sup] As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin (My sin nature) living in me. [/size][/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]Now if there is another way to understand this verse, then please let me know.
[/font]

Joshua David

 

[Butch5]

I am sure that the Holy Spirit had man put in the bible the account of Peter’s denial of Jesus, to show just how weak man is, just how much one needs to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.



Peter at the time of his denial of Jesus had not yet received the Holy Spirit. It is only with the indwelling of God that man is able to defeat Satan/sin.



Hebrews tells us that when a person who is spiritual deliberately commits a sin there is no longer any repentance for that person.



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

OK, but was Peter a follower of Jesus or not? He lied three times, you said a single lie will send a Christian to hell, what happened to Peter?

Regarding Hebrews 10:26, you said, When a person who is spiritual commits a sin there is no longer any repentance. Can you give some support for that? Can you show it grammatically?

 

[Thankful 1]

OK, but was Peter a follower of Jesus or not? He lied three times, you said a single lie will send a Christian to hell, what happened to Peter?

Regarding Hebrews 10:26, you said, When a person who is spiritual commits a sin there is no longer any repentance. Can you give some support for that? Can you show it grammatically?

Yes Peter was a disciple of Jesus, but at the time of Peter’s denial Peter had not yet received the Holy Spirit.



God did not yet make his home in people.



There is a Spiritual walk that one needs to live, in order to be one with God. Being one with God means a person will not sin.



Scripture tells us that a person who knows God does not sin. If one sins he or she only knows of God, at best.



What I share is scriptural, and I understand because Jesus taught me.



I also know that you will not come to know what I know unless you let God guide and teach you.



Becoming one with God

​

(Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.​

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are many, but just to name a few.



(1 Corinthians 12:27-30) “Now you together are Christ’s body; but each of you is a different part of it. In the Church, God has given the first place to apostles, the second to prophets, the third to teachers; after them, miracles, and after them the gift of healing; helpers, good leaders, those with many languages. Are all of them apostles, or all of them prophets, or all of them teachers? Do all speak strange languages, and all interpret them?”



The Holy Spirit/Jesus will begin to teach and give one the grace to live the whole Word of God.



(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”



Living the Word of God includes loving, even one’s enemies.



(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”



(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”





One can’t say he or she loves if they have money stored and they keep it stored even when they know there is some one in need of that money.



(1 John 3:16-18) “This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.”

Jesus told us the following​

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.”



(Matthew 6:24)"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”



(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”



(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

A Spiritual Christian is a temple of God where no sin exists.​

(Romans 6:2-4) “How can we who died to sin yet live in it?

Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.”



(1 John 5:18) “ We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him”



(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”



When one learns to obey and live the Word of God, he or she will become the home of God.



(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”



(1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”



To maintain life in one he or she needs spiritual food.



(John 6:53-55) “How can this man give us his flesh to eat? They said. Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day.”



By the way people I have walked the walk. Jesus called me and I lived his Word as he directed me to live it for thirty some years. It was not a walk I would ever have done on my own. I learned what it is to become one with God.



If one truly gives his or her life to God they will find that it is a ride that is beyond anything he or she thought they could live.



I did not choose to do what I am doing. I did not choose to live the life I lived, Jesus chose for me. I do as he tells me to do.

 

[Joshua David]

I did not choose to do what I am doing. I did not choose to live the life I lived, Jesus chose for me. I do as he tells me to do.

Every single time, every single instance? Since you have been saved, there has not been a single time that you slipped for just a sec? Are you really claiming to have lived a perfect life since you have been saved? That you have never done something that you knew was wrong since you have been saved?


If that is the case, then you need to take a real hard look at what sin is. Because the problem is not with you sinning or not sinning, but with the fact that you believe everything you do is perfect.




Joshua David

 

[Butch5]

Ok you make a very valid point as far as who broke the seal, but I would still say that if it is possible for our seal to be broken, by willfully sinning, as some have put forth, then once that seal is broken it can not be resealed.

So in your own opinion, what is the consequences of having our seal broken?

It seems I misunderstood your post, please accept my apologies. I think there are two ways to understand what Paul may have meant. Paul told the Ephesians, they were sealed wit the holy Spirit of promise. At the time Paul wrote to them the gifts of the Spirit were active, so this seal could be the evidenced by the gift each person exhibited. Or, Paul could have been referring to the indwelling of the Spirit given to believers. If it is the second then the breaking of the seal would be the loss of the Spirit. I suspect the Spirit would leave the one who rejected Christ. This would result in the loss of salvation

Heb 6:4-6 Heb 10:26-27

Now I agree with you, that it is not committing a sin willfully that breaks the seal, but it is the utter rejection of God that breaks the seal. My whole point was that if you say that to commit a willful sin is enough to break your seal then we are all lost. I try my best to live a sin-free life, but there are things that I still struggle with, and yes I will admit that there have been times that I have willfully sinned. Does this mean that I am no longer saved, that my seal has been broken? That is am lost forever? That no sacrifice remains for me? That all that remains is a fearful expectation of judgement and raging fire?

I agree with you here and I think the answer to these questions is no.

There are those Christians that may judge me thus, but I know it is not true. I love my Lord, and I am grateful for his saving grace. When I see a brother struggling with a sin, I do not condemn him. I do not cast him out. I try to strengthen him with encouragement, because I know that sometimes I have struggled with sin. Does this mean that I overlook his sin? No not at all. How can you fix a problem if you overlook it? But neither do I use the fact that he is struggling as an excuse to condemn him.

This is commendable. If more Christians would act this way there wold be more unity in the faith.

When Christians claim that they never sin, I believe that this is spoken from a spirit of pride. They look down at all the other 'lesser Christians' who struggle with sin in pity that they are not as righteous as they are. They will never claim that they do this. But it is true none the less.

I agree, this is a problem in American Christianity today,

My comments about willingly sinning once is enough were directed more to them, as they claim that to willingly sin is enough to cost you your salvation.

That's because many do not understand the Scriptures, they are taught to proof text just as with this passage. We verses 26 through 31 quote over and over again, yet the context is not given. Firstly, it is being spoken to Jews who are considering returning to the Mosaic Law.Many Christ look at these verse and do just as you said, they say if you willfully commit a sin you are doomed. However, the writer (Paul?) tell his readers exactly what he means, he tells them what the Willful sin is. In Verse 28 he says,

Hebrews 10:28 ( KJV )
He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

The willful sin is the New Testament counter part of despising Moses Law. He is not saying any sin one commits, he has a particular thing in mind. What did it mean to despise Moses Law? Well, the Greek word despise means,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G114 ἀθετέω atheteō Thayer Definition: 1) to do away with, to set aside, disregard 2) to thwart the efficacy of anything, nullify, make void, frustrate 3) to reject, to refuse, to slight

It can also mean to violate God command but if that is what the writer of Hebrews is saying then it would pose an issue with John's words. It seems more likely given the context that the writer of Hebrews is speaking of rejecting Christ. He says the one who despised Moses Law. To reject or set aside the Law, these Christians were contemplating setting aside the faith.

[font="tahoma][size="2"][/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]No, because there is nothing in the text that suggest he was talking about himself prior to his conversion, now if someone could put forth a good enough argument to suggest this, then I would consider it. Look at the tense that Paul is speaking. He is not talking about a struggle he had previously, as in before his conversion, but one that he has in his present time.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][/font][font="tahoma][size="2"]Rom 7:15-17 [sup]15[/sup] I do not understand what I do (Present tense). For what I want to do I do not do (He wants to do right all the time but he does, Present tense ) , but what I hate ( sin ) I do ( Present tense ). [sup]16[/sup] And if I do what I do not want to do ( If I sin ), I agree that the law is good. [sup]17[/sup] As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin (My sin nature) living in me. [/size][/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]Now if there is another way to understand this verse, then please let me know.
[/font]

Joshua David

I'll have to reply later on this.