If the second coming happens before the thousand years?

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ewq1938

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As I said before, if vultures are eating even dead carcasses, this is evidence that the temporal world continues, as is, after Jesus' Return. Not only do birds do a "clean up" job after the Battle of Armageddon, but there is evidence that people in Israel have to work at cleansing the land.


It also proves they weren't burned to death because there wouldn't be anything to eat.
 
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WPM

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Yes of course but it says that they eat the flesh of all people so who could be around for the thousand years?

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

The term “the fowls of heaven” is frequently employed throughout the Old Testament to describe bird-life in general and is quite often accompanies the description “the beasts of the earth” which relates to the animal life. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel identify both with the judgment of God and with feasting upon the wicked after destruction.

It seems that John borrows his language from the Old Testament prophets and their judgment pronouncements on the rebellious of their day (Jeremiah 15:3, 16:4, 19:7, 34:20, Ezekiel 29:5 and 32:4). And whilst the fowls and beasts that are predicted to consume the rebellious in these prophecies are literal it seems that John uses “the fowls” as a symbol of those commissioned to destroy the wicked at the end of the world.

So, what are the fowls in this reading symbolic of?

The word rendered “fowls” in this reading is the word orneois in the original, which simply means birds. The word comes up three times in the New Testament, all of which are in the book of Revelation, twice in our current chapter (vv 17 & 21) and once in chapter 18 (v 2), where it is interpreted bird. We know that natural birds do not fly in space or outside of our atmosphere. The birds depicted in this symbolic passage “fly in the midst of heaven.” These are obviously not literal birds. In fact, there is no evidence of literal birds in heaven. Allowing for the figurative location of this reading (namely Rev) I feel we can assume that this is a symbolic depiction.

The statement the “midst of heaven” is taken from the Greek word mesouranēma which is the joining of the Greek words mesos (Strong’s 3319) and ouranos (Strong’s 3772). It is found three times in the New Testament all of which are translated “midst of heaven” – referring to the actual place of heaven. Notably, in the other two references (Revelation 8:13 and 14:6) the usage of the word also refers to angels in the “midst of heaven” Along with the evidence that I have already presented I believe this gives a compelling case for views these symbolic fowls as angels. Whilst it can be rendered sky, the translators were indeed correct in their interpretation of this.

This overall passage, which evidently relates to the second coming of the Lord and the awful day of God’s wrath, seems to entirely correlate with Matthew 24:27-30 and Luke 17:24-37.

Matthew records Jesus say: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together. Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The parallel passage in Luke 17:24-37 tells us: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This is saying the exact same as Matthew 24. Revelation 19 also correlates with this. The eagles devour those left behind after the catching away. The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

Significantly, the word for eagles (aetoi) is interestingly interpreted “angel” in Revelation 8:13.

It reads: "And I beheld, and heard an angel (aetos) flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels (aggelos), which are yet to sound!"

The fowls or birds seem to be a poignant symbol of the angels of God whose job it is to exercise un-merciless judgment on the wicked on that day. Describing the nature and character of the eagle, Job 39:30 poignantly declares, “where the slain are, there is she.There seems good reason to believe that these fowls or birds are symbolic of the angels, which mete out justice upon the wicked on behalf of God destruction at the end of this age. They are clearly a heavenly host as, when they are bidden, they are found flying “in the midst of heaven.” Here we see the final destruction of the wicked.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Yes of course but it says that they eat the flesh of all people so who could be around for the thousand years?
The whole context surrounding Rev.19:17-18 is the war between Jesus and all who have the mark of the beast. The aftermath. Is described as blood up ti a horse's bridle in the Valley of Megiddo - ( one hundred square miles). Looking down on all the reprobate He says kill them all ... birds eat their flesh. This is judgment against all those who oppose Jesus.
In the beginning of the chapter, Babylon (the world system) is destroyed. A remnant of Israel is protected.
Wrath was appointed to the reprobate, not those who have the seal of God. Most will be raptured at His coming, but then every eye will see Him and they will mourn realizing they were wrong. Many who were on the fence about Christ will realize He is Lord. These remaining people ( that have refused the Mark of the Beast) repent.
This is partly the remnant Jews who flee the war and go into the wilderness and are protected.
"The woman (symbolic for Israel) was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach." Rev. 12:14
Matthew 2415-21supports this:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
.


[*Those Christians who die after the rapture, and throughouy the Millennial Kingdom will be resurrected after the Millennial Kingdom - that will be the second resurrection.]
 

ewq1938

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The whole context surrounding Rev.19:17-18 is the war between Jesus and all who have the mark of the beast.


It's not all of them. Only the army of the beast is there. The civilians who are the majority of humans, do not go to Armageddon.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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It's not all of them. Only the army of the beast is there. The civilians who are the majority of humans, do not go to Armageddon.
Right. After the devastation caused by the Seals, Trumpets and the Bowls, most of the world is dead, but not all.
200 million are involved in that war. Since the valley is one hundred sq. miles (64k acres), do the math and you could lay side by side 200 million dead men and fill that area. It is interesting that they march from the east. Why? They can't fly or drive because everything has been toasted. No functioning grid from EMP's. Maybe horses will be the only optiinal mode of transportation left?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Everyone not there at Armageddon. Armageddon is a small place 66 miles from Jerusalem. All of an army will be killed there not everyone globally. Verse 15 promises a rule over the nations past the battle there.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them (future tense verb) with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
If Armageddon is referring to a literal physical place, then is that your understanding of mystery Babylon as well? And of Gog and Magog referenced in Revelation 20:8?

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It's not all of them. Only the army of the beast is there. The civilians who are the majority of humans, do not go to Armageddon.
But John expands the scope of those who will be killed at that time to be not just the army of the beast, but all people, whether great or small, free or slave.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

The army of the beast would be the "kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders" referenced here, but then John indicates it's not just them that will be killed, but "all people, free and slave, great and small". No unbeliever will be spared at Christ's return, just as is taught in passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.
 
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ewq1938

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Right. After the devastation caused by the Seals, Trumpets and the Bowls, most of the world is dead, but not all.

Most of the world is alive, not dead.

It is interesting that they march from the east. Why?

Why insert "marching" into the passage? There's no marching written there.



They can't fly or drive because everything has been toasted. No functioning grid from EMP's. Maybe horses will be the only optiinal mode of transportation left?

lol....no. There is zero evidence for any of that.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Most of the world is alive, not dead.



Why insert "marching" into the passage? There's no marching written there.





lol....no. There is zero evidence for any of that.
Well, the horses are marching. Oh, so you are a post -tribber?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It also proves they weren't burned to death because there wouldn't be anything to eat.
Yeah, just keep believing that Revelation 19 is all literal. Can't wait to see that big sword coming out of Christ's mouth that He'll use to slay His enemies. That will be awesome. How big do you think the sword will be?
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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No horses are mentioned.
Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.’

You may see that Rev. 19:17-19 is just a different vantage point of Rev. 16:12-16, both speaking of Armageddon ... or not.
 

ewq1938

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Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.’

You may see that Rev. 19:17-19 is just a different vantage point of Rev. 16:12-16, both speaking of Armageddon ... or not.


I thought you were talking about a different passage that does not mention horses. Even in Rev 19, heavenly armies ride horses that apparently can fly so most certainly horses are not literal horses. John was shown horses (and a dragon etc) but these things represent other things.
 

Timtofly

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Yes of course but it says that they eat the flesh of all people so who could be around for the thousand years?
The firstfruits of the final harvest. Jesus and the angels were already on the earth 42 months prior to Armageddon. The 7th Trumpet is 42 months prior to Armageddon. Satan rules on Christ's throne in Jerusalem for 42 months prior to Armageddon.

The Second Coming was way more than 42 months prior to Armageddon. The final harvest ended at the 7th Trumpet. The harvest was removed from the earth, and comes back at Armageddon after Satan's 42 months. Revelation 15 says they are waiting on the sea of glass, during Satan's 42 months.

Revelation 15 and victory over Satan is in contrast to Revelation 13 and overcome by Satan. The final harvest is never said to suffer on earth, but are protected by being on the sea of glass, during the AoD, the last 42 months leading up to Armageddon.

The others who are beheaded are physically resurrected to live on earth after Armageddon. They are not at Armageddon, because their resurrection is after Armageddon.
 

Timtofly

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It's not all of them. Only the army of the beast is there. The civilians who are the majority of humans, do not go to Armageddon.
The majority of humanity was already physically removed from the earth before the 7th Trumpet and Satan's 42 months. Millions more do not survive this 42 months of AoD. What shows up at Armageddon is the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. There are no civilians left after 42 months of utter abomination and desolation. You keep forgetting that at the 6th Seal all of mankind's works and technology were all burned up. Except those days after are cut short no flesh would survive. The only professions of faith in the 42 months are getting one's head chopped off. That would be a merciful end to all the physical suffering going on. To say woman and children are found somewhere, is not acknowledging that 2 billion are killed during the 4th Seal. 2 billion are killed during the 6th Trumpet. And more likely than not 2 billion during the 7 Thunders. And that does not include the church being removed, and not part of the general killing of those not spiritually born from above. Are there 2 billion born again believers on earth? Will there be more right before the 6th Seal is opened, or none at all? The 4th Seal has not been opened because there has never been 2 billion people killed in a relatively short period of time. Not even in all the wars combined of the last 200 years. Despite many wars, population has literally exploded over the last 200 years, no matter how Satan has tried to kill off humanity. Not even abortion on demand or forced has slowed down this population boom.

When the final harvest starts, billions of humans will be removed by angels in a relatively short period of time, more than 75% of humanity even before Satan's AoD. Satan will be removing humans who rebel, whether they take the mark or not. Just because people take the mark does not mean they conform to Satan's demands. They take the mark by rejecting God, not just because they worship Satan. Many with the mark won't want to worship a dictator, for the same reason they don't want to worship God.
 

Timtofly

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Yeah, just keep believing that Revelation 19 is all literal. Can't wait to see that big sword coming out of Christ's mouth that He'll use to slay His enemies. That will be awesome. How big do you think the sword will be?
Are you saying those humans are not literal either? They are only symbolic of humanity having a picnic with the birds?

What is hard about discerning literal and symbolic in Revelation for Amil? Do they have to ask for directions at every step? Or do they just avoid God's Word and make up their own directions for God's timing? Then ask questions to avoid the fact they are avoiding what is literal?
 

Timtofly

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I thought you were talking about a different passage that does not mention horses. Even in Rev 19, heavenly armies ride horses that apparently can fly so most certainly horses are not literal horses. John was shown horses (and a dragon etc) but these things represent other things.
God uses human technology instead of His own creation? You do realize that horses have been the mode of transportation since the 6th Day. Why does God need a reinvention of the horse after 7,000 years?

Besides it is not called flying. It is called ascending and descending. Was Elijah caught up in a literal tornado, or a chariot pulled by, guess what, horses? Do you think God has had jet airplanes since creation?