IF YOU THINK MATTHEW 24:29-30 WAS FULFILLED IN 70AD PLEASE SHOW ME WHY

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Waiting on him

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Matthew 24:2 says nothing about the heavens being shaken.

Yes the moon and the stars are use figuratively but in Matthew 24:29-30 they are literal
I believe the problem your having is when reading this scripture you see Jesus speaking with his disciples, you automatically insert yourself into the conversation. The fact is, it’s private conversation between Jesus and four of his disciples in which he uses many personal pronouns. He’s speaking specifically to them. They asked the two questions, and he’s telling them clearly what they will observe.

I believe if you read the acts and the epistles you’ll infact observe them experiencing what he warned them of.
 

Doug

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With your insistence on it being literal you created a problem for yourself. It did not help you with anything.

You know that stars are the suns of other solar systems, right? So, what would "falling", if literal, even mean? Falling where?
The verse doesnt give a full explanation in regard to the stars falling

If you arbitrarily say scripture is to be taken symbolically then you cant know that anything in scripture is true and literal
 
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Doug

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With your insistence on it being literal you created a problem for yourself. It did not help you with anything.

You know that stars are the suns of other solar systems, right? So, what would "falling", if literal, even mean? Falling where?
Here are some verses to consider
[Isa 13:10, 13 KJV] 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. ... 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
[Isa 34:4 KJV] 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
 

HealthyShape

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Here are some verses to consider
[Isa 13:10, 13 KJV] 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. ... 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
[Isa 34:4 KJV] 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
These are not literal. Heavens are not some kind of a firmament roof over a flat earth as the ancient Jews imagined. So the heavens cannot be rolled as a scroll.
 

HealthyShape

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If you arbitrarily say scripture is to be taken symbolically then you cant know that anything in scripture is true and literal
You just used a logical fallacy called "the slippery slope". Identifying common biblical non-literal imagery does not mean nothing in the Scriptures is true or literal.
 

rwb

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If you think Matthew 24:29-30 was fulfilled in 70AD I would like to hear why you believe so

[Mat 24:29-30 KJV] 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I would argue what was fulfilled in 70 AD was fulfillment of the warning God gave regarding the physical/material/natural sons of Abraham, called the nation of Israel. The physical destruction of Jerusalem and the Old Temple in 70 AD made a total and complete end of the Old Covenantal sacrificial system, because Christ has ushered in a New Covenant through His crucifixion and resurrection which began a new sacrificial system through His blood.

The New Covenant has no part in the Old Covenantal way through being cleansed outwardly by the blood of sacrificial animals and offerings. These all show the physical/material way of Old where the Jews were commanded to keep the whole law of God if they desired to be saved. The New Covenant, through the sinless life, death and resurrection of Christ came with Christ, when He introduced to man the way we might be, not only outwardly cleansed, but inwardly cleansed.

The New Covenant didn't come to the earth when Jerusalem and the Temple were utterly destroyed. It came with Christ when He came to earth a man, lived a sinless life, gave His blood to atone for sin, and resurrect from the dead to destroy the bondage of death that Satan was able to hold unsaved people in. While here Christ shows us the Kingdom of God had come by the miracles He performed, especially casting out devils/demons. This also demonstrates the Kingdom of God in heaven is spiritual and can only be known and entered through His Spirit in us.

The new way Christ came with that man might be eternally saved is by knowing and entering the Kingdom of God in heaven through His Spirit in us. Christ says we must be born again.

Though some of what Christ spoke on the Mount of Olives was to be physically fulfilled as history shows us. The majority of the words Christ spoke cannot fit into the physical/material destruction of 70 AD. We don't force the prophetic word Christ spoke into the far distant future, or end of this age only, but understanding the words Christ spoke to His disciples then would witness/suffer the things spoken along with new disciples that would come through their faithfulness as long as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth.

Knowing that Christ ushered in the Kingdom of God from heaven cannot be physically seen by the world. and the only way to both know and enter the Kingdom of God is we must be born again. Christ tells us this is because the Kingdom of God is within you. Knowing this we should also realize the things Christ warns His disciples should come, though there will be much physical suffering and death through that which was coming, it can only be rightly understood through spiritual, not material/physical fulfillment as a spiritual battle between good and evil is waged.

The New Covenant through Christ is not physical and does not make sense when we try to force fulfillment for the prophecy unto physical/material/natural children of Abraham. The Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth with is a spiritual Kingdom and the prophecy only makes sense when we separate the wrath of God that came upon a physical people who were called to be the Kingdom of God on earth in 70 AD, from the warnings of all that would come to the spiritual people of Abraham from the beginning of proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the earth until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete.
 

1stCenturyLady

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I do not fit the traditional conformity of many denominations and as such I am a Callithumpian.

Australian meaning: - Callithumpian: "A member of an unspecified non-conformist religious sect."

In American slang it is used to describe "a person who is a member of a noisy, boisterous band or parade."

There are many callithumpians on this forum who are noisy about what they "might" believe. Who often are moving in the direction of the predominate breeze at that particular time.
Callithumpians might describe myself as I see false doctrines in most denominations that I do not want to be a part of. They minimize what Jesus did on the cross, and say they will always have a sin nature, when in reality it was crucified on the cross with Jesus. Jesus cleanses us of all sin, including the desire to break commandments of God. They falsely accuse someone like me as believing in sinless perfection, and I don't. Sinlessness and Perfection are two different things not given at the same time, but Jesus completes that process from one to the other as the Author and Finisher of our faith. From faith to faith, and glory to glory.
 
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marks

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I did a lot of actual study, even of Greek manuscripts. I am almost sure you do not know what you are talking about, like all of those who think the KJV is the best and modern translations (and Greek editions) are some kind of a scam.

Googling and clicking on the links which support your view is not studying. Flat Earthers also think they did the "research" and that the mainstream scientists are stupid or liars. It is called living in a bubble.
It's pointless to cast aspersions at those who have studied and support the use of the KJV, such as myself. We know what we know.

And comparing us to flat earthers shows your own heart's intent, it doesn't describe me.

It shows your willingness to ridicule those with whom you disagree.

Much love!
 

Doug

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These are not literal. Heavens are not some kind of a firmament roof over a flat earth as the ancient Jews imagined. So the heavens cannot be rolled as a scroll.
Not to sure about that look at these verses...........................
[Psa 104:2 KJV] 2 Who coverest [thyself] with light as [with] a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
[Isa 40:22 KJV] 22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:..............the heavens are said to like a tent. You can roll up a tent.
 

Doug

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You just used a logical fallacy called "the slippery slope". Identifying common biblical non-literal imagery does not mean nothing in the Scriptures is true or literal.
I dont think it is a fallicy to say you are the determination of what scripture can be believed
 

Waiting on him

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Not to sure about that look at these verses...........................
[Psa 104:2 KJV] 2 Who coverest [thyself] with light as [with] a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
[Isa 40:22 KJV] 22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:..............the heavens are said to like a tent. You can roll up a tent.
The heavens is a reference to those apostles from whom the bridegroom was going fourth in the first century.

Psalm 19 identifies these individuals
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
— Psalm 19:1

Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
— Psalm 19:5

Paul identifies with this scripture as himself running a race.

He also identifies it as his call to apostle.

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
— Romans 1:1-2
 

HealthyShape

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Not to sure about that look at these verses...........................
[Psa 104:2 KJV] 2 Who coverest [thyself] with light as [with] a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
[Isa 40:22 KJV] 22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:..............the heavens are said to like a tent. You can roll up a tent.
Wait, you are also a flat earther? That would explain why you read this literally.
 

rwb

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I believe the problem your having is when reading this scripture you see Jesus speaking with his disciples, you automatically insert yourself into the conversation. The fact is, it’s private conversation between Jesus and four of his disciples in which he uses many personal pronouns. He’s speaking specifically to them. They asked the two questions, and he’s telling them clearly what they will observe.

I believe if you read the acts and the epistles you’ll infact observe them experiencing what he warned them of.

When speaking of His coming again he changes from the singular 'you' to the inclusive 'they'.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The phrase "they shall see" is translated from the Greek word

optánomai which is defined - appear, look, see, shew self.

The same Greek word "they shall see" where we are shown the Kingdom of God that shall be on the new earth after the first heaven and earth have passed away.

Revelation 22:4 (KJV) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
 

Doug

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I would argue what was fulfilled in 70 AD was fulfillment of the warning God gave regarding the physical/material/natural sons of Abraham, called the nation of Israel. The physical destruction of Jerusalem and the Old Temple in 70 AD made a total and complete end of the Old Covenantal sacrificial system, because Christ has ushered in a New Covenant through His crucifixion and resurrection which began a new sacrificial system through His blood.

The New Covenant has no part in the Old Covenantal way through being cleansed outwardly by the blood of sacrificial animals and offerings. These all show the physical/material way of Old where the Jews were commanded to keep the whole law of God if they desired to be saved. The New Covenant, through the sinless life, death and resurrection of Christ came with Christ, when He introduced to man the way we might be, not only outwardly cleansed, but inwardly cleansed.

The New Covenant didn't come to the earth when Jerusalem and the Temple were utterly destroyed. It came with Christ when He came to earth a man, lived a sinless life, gave His blood to atone for sin, and resurrect from the dead to destroy the bondage of death that Satan was able to hold unsaved people in. While here Christ shows us the Kingdom of God had come by the miracles He performed, especially casting out devils/demons. This also demonstrates the Kingdom of God in heaven is spiritual and can only be known and entered through His Spirit in us.

The new way Christ came with that man might be eternally saved is by knowing and entering the Kingdom of God in heaven through His Spirit in us. Christ says we must be born again.

Though some of what Christ spoke on the Mount of Olives was to be physically fulfilled as history shows us. The majority of the words Christ spoke cannot fit into the physical/material destruction of 70 AD. We don't force the prophetic word Christ spoke into the far distant future, or end of this age only, but understanding the words Christ spoke to His disciples then would witness/suffer the things spoken along with new disciples that would come through their faithfulness as long as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth.

Knowing that Christ ushered in the Kingdom of God from heaven cannot be physically seen by the world. and the only way to both know and enter the Kingdom of God is we must be born again. Christ tells us this is because the Kingdom of God is within you. Knowing this we should also realize the things Christ warns His disciples should come, though there will be much physical suffering and death through that which was coming, it can only be rightly understood through spiritual, not material/physical fulfillment as a spiritual battle between good and evil is waged.

The New Covenant through Christ is not physical and does not make sense when we try to force fulfillment for the prophecy unto physical/material/natural children of Abraham. The Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth with is a spiritual Kingdom and the prophecy only makes sense when we separate the wrath of God that came upon a physical people who were called to be the Kingdom of God on earth in 70 AD, from the warnings of all that would come to the spiritual people of Abraham from the beginning of proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the earth until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete.
The new covenant will be established after those days which is the tribulation.....................[Jer 31:33 KJV] 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.........................he will bring scattered Israel into the land.....................[Deu 30:5 KJV] 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.........................He will cause them to keep the law..................[Eze 36:27 KJV] 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Not only will the new covenant be in literal place. but Christ will also will reign in the kingdom from Jerusalem.............................[Eze 36:27 KJV] 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
 

Waiting on him

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When speaking of His coming again he changes from the singular 'you' to the inclusive 'they'.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The phrase "they shall see" is translated from the Greek word

optánomai which is defined - appear, look, see, shew self.

The same Greek word "they shall see" where we are shown the Kingdom of God that shall be on the new earth after the first heaven and earth have passed away.

Revelation 22:4 (KJV) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
The kingdom doesn’t come with observation. Could you reconcile your understanding with this statement that Jesus made?
 

Waiting on him

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When speaking of His coming again he changes from the singular 'you' to the inclusive 'they'.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The phrase "they shall see" is translated from the Greek word

optánomai which is defined - appear, look, see, shew self.

The same Greek word "they shall see" where we are shown the Kingdom of God that shall be on the new earth after the first heaven and earth have passed away.

Revelation 22:4 (KJV) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Also worth noting the twelve tribes were actually back in place at the time these events happened.
 

Behold

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I did a lot of actual study, even of Greek manuscripts.

Hummmmm.

Is this where im supposed to supply you with my credentials to determine who has the real one?
Well, im Seminary Trained, and im trained in 'Manuscript evidence".
So, i can teach about "extant" Koine Greek Texts, of which there are about 30 completed NT Greek texts, but only about 3-4 of them are used to create Bibles, and that does not include the Latin Text that Jerome created for the MaryCult that cause Martin Luther to leave it, and create Protestantism that is a RETURN to the Bible.

I use a few different versions, but i use the KJV mostly, and i use it to evaluate other bibles regarding doctrine, clarity, and truth.
 

Waiting on him

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Hummmmm.

Is this where im supposed to supply you with my credentials to determine who has the real one?
Well, im Seminary Trained, and im trained in 'Manuscript evidence".
So, i can teach about "extant" Koine Greek Texts, of which there are about 30 completed NT Greek texts, but only about 3-4 of them are used to create Bibles, and that does not include the Latin Text that Jerome created for the MaryCult that cause Martin Luther to leave it, and create Protestantism that is a RETURN to the Bible.

I use a few different versions, but i use the KJV mostly, and i use it to evaluate other bibles regarding doctrine, clarity, and truth.
Maybe you can help me with a verse since your a professional.

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
— Acts 13:33

How many times has Jesus Been raised, I’m believing the answer to Matthew 24:30 has something to do with this?
 

Waiting on him

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And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
— John 6:39-40