If you want to Choose to Reject the Rapture=Just stay here!

[Giuliano]

I just came across a quote I thought perfect for this topic!
"Genuine freedom liberates believers to do what is good. Those who use freedom as license for evil reveal that they are not truly free since a life of wickedness is the very definition of slavery" - Dr Tom Schreiner on 1 Pet 2:16

Great quote. Thanks for posting that.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

we are being told in Galatians to act righteously

“act righteously”?

Read the Scripture and see anywhere if it is said "God will force you to be filled with love so you can go to Heaven", you will not find it, as Galatians and every where else is giving warnings of how we need to act so we can go to Heaven.

Not force but He does fill with love: Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Thirst after righteousness for the shall be filled: with Living Water so they never thirst again. “From where do you have that Living Water?”

John 4:10-15 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. [11] The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? [12] Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? [13] Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: [14] But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him ...a well of water ...springing up into everlasting life. [15] The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Is that not Him filling them believe with Love? Philippians Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

[Naomi25]

Entire point of what Paul was saying, is that we should not boast, that we need God's grace to be saved as we are only human and can not do it alone. Because as Jesus said with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. But you use the talents of Matthew 25, but ignore the last half of the parable that talks about the servant that does no works with the 1 talent and the Master returns and takes his talent away and tosses him into outer darkness. James tells us faith without works is dead. You should also read the parable of the sower, of people that hear the truth with the gift of faith but reject it because they chose this life over God. There are many examples of works earn salvation but it is ignored with all the defending of a tradition of man out of fear because Christians rather live a lie of "once saved always saved even if I rape and murder 5 million people", because they do not trust God or believe in themselves that they can get to Heaven without a free lazy pass.

Paul and James are not inconsistent. Salvation IS by grace alone, but it is most assuredly true that a true faith...one that has regenerated the heart, is accompanied by fruit. If a person is not showing this fruit, one must wonder if the regeneration was genuine.
And we see this in, as you say, the parable of the sower, and also as it is played out even in our Churches. People come and hear the word of God, hear the truth! Many people even seem to recognize that there is truth to it, that there is rightness to it...but sadly it is not enough, not without the Spirit doing his work as well. The parable tells us that without the supernatural work of the Spirit, life and its cares, or Satan and his snares, snatches the truth away from these people.
Haven't you witnesses the same thing? The truth, the powerful, wonderful, freeing truth that you know holds so much power and freedom, and people just can't understand it, or hold it as precious. They smile at it, and maybe flirt with it, take it to lunch, but they just don't find it worthy to commit to. It hasn't grabbed them as the most important thing in the world, worth throwing every other thing away for! It's only God's regenerating work in a person that leads a person to WANT to do that!
So, regardless of what people say, or where they go on Sunday's or even if they attend bible study's...we look to what harmonizes....do their words match up with their actions? That's the point of what James wrote. Paul is right...grace IS a gift...it HAS to be a gift. But James is right too...when that gift has been fully received in a person's life, it will change them and result in fruit, in outwards actions.

If someone knows they lack works and are not living righteously to the point the create a false doctrine to ease their fears of what awaits them, then they already know their fate and where they are going but God will not intervene. This life is a test, a trial of our faith, and narrow is the way. There is no test to be given a free gift, then sit watch tv until you die. Nonsense born of people knowing the fate that awaits them and it scares them.

It's only nonsense if its not found in scripture. The problem is; it is. Grace IS a free gift. It has to be for two reasons: one...man is incapable of earning grace via his own works, even if he wanted to or tried to. And two...if grace if a free gift, then ALL the glory and praise goes to Christ and him alone.
Please note, however, that only disingenuous or false 'Christians' promote the idea of being 'lazy' or 'depending on grace so they can sin more'. That is not what scripture teaches, and it is not what honest regeneration produces anyway.

 

[Waiting on him]

That might be your problem. The parables are not about loaning money at high rates. The 'talents' or 'minas' are symbols for the gifts or abilities God has given us (1 Cor 12:4-7). The circumstances he has places us in (Eph 2:10). The parable discusses how different people work within those parameters; some take these things and work for the Kingdom, and others take what they have been given and squander them for greedy or selfish reasons.
So, it's got nothing to do with usury.

Ok, thanks for sharing, I believe I understand your perspective.

 

[Naomi25]

So, some think that those who do not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture will be punished?? Wow..that's so off base I cannot even believe those who DO expect this to happen think they are special in some way. Do you not trust God to protect His own during these terrible times?? I can go only so far as Mid-Trib if any at all. I believed this for decades and learned different from much study. What happens if the pre trib rapture does NOT take place? Anyone you might have told about this pre trib rapture will think your God is a liar and will take the mark. Not to mention the Christians who have believed and waited for something that might not happen, what will happen to their faith?? Can we not understand that we need to be PREPARED if it does NOT happen? Are you that SURE? I was, but then there was definitely an aspect of WANTING to believe it...oh yay, I don't have to trust God through these terrible times as, I will just be whisked away into heaven. If you are wrong and are teaching this to everybody who will listen, you will be held accountable. Our beliefs do not get us to heaven...it is faith and trust and obedience to the Living God that will do that.
I am not criticizing your beliefs but, don't be so set in stone with it! Why can we not leave it open and be prepared either way?

I am always a little baffled by people who get so ANGRY over their end times belief! I mean, sure, I like defending my own as much as the next person, but we ought to have a good sense of whether or not this is an essential doctrine or not.
And you make a very good point about preparedness. I think it is good to be sure in ourselves of what we believe scripture is saying about this, but I think in the case of eschatology, where there are several biblical...ah...options, shall we say? Views which all, despite their flaws, attempt to be faithful to scripture. I think its just wisdom for us all to be aware of these other views...aware enough that we would not be caught unawares should that situation come upon us.
Personally, I think God left Christ's return just vague enough that it forces his children to constantly talk about it. I guess he, like us, would wish it to happen in a more charitable manner at times. But there is no doubt that the constant debate between Pre-trib, Post-trib and Amil keeps Christ's return fresh on our minds and lips...an ever present hope in these hope dwindling days.
And really, when it comes down to it, none of us should really care who is right or wrong. At the base of it all, we should just want Christ to come and for 'his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven'...be that through a Millennial reign or through an eternal kingdom. I know I certianly won't care if I'm wrong. Just bring on the return!

 

[Nancy]

I am always a little baffled by people who get so ANGRY over their end times belief! I mean, sure, I like defending my own as much as the next person, but we ought to have a good sense of whether or not this is an essential doctrine or not.
And you make a very good point about preparedness. I think it is good to be sure in ourselves of what we believe scripture is saying about this, but I think in the case of eschatology, where there are several biblical...ah...options, shall we say? Views which all, despite their flaws, attempt to be faithful to scripture. I think its just wisdom for us all to be aware of these other views...aware enough that we would not be caught unawares should that situation come upon us.
Personally, I think God left Christ's return just vague enough that it forces his children to constantly talk about it. I guess he, like us, would wish it to happen in a more charitable manner at times. But there is no doubt that the constant debate between Pre-trib, Post-trib and Amil keeps Christ's return fresh on our minds and lips...an ever present hope in these hope dwindling days.
And really, when it comes down to it, none of us should really care who is right or wrong. At the base of it all, we should just want Christ to come and for 'his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven'...be that through a Millennial reign or through an eternal kingdom. I know I certianly won't care if I'm wrong. Just bring on the return!

Hi Naomi,
I'm with you on this. I don't care about the "when" as long as He comes! It is also IMHO that this is not a doctrine that is really germane to salvation yet, some hold it up there with, like the same importance as say, the Incarnation! Yes, it is an awesome thought to ponder upon but then, if it is NOT the truth, just consider all the implications...this seems the ONLY doctrine of importance to a few on here as, that is all they post on, and the post is usually in reply to someone who believes differently. We simply need to be built up in our faith so that if it doesn't happen, we will be able to withstand all the things coming on the Earth. An old Military term; PREPAREDNESS!!! lol.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Nancy;

Like I said, Jesus told us to pray for pre- in Luke 21:36; and a pre-tribulation rapture is also promised to overcomers in Philadelphia (those who keep the word of His patience)...Revelation 3:10.

Jesus gives a stern warning to those who mess up in Thyatira, that they are going to go through the Great Trib (Revelation 2:22).

So then, being in the church doesn't necessarily exempt a person from the Great Trib; or guarantee that they will go up in a pre-tribulation rapture.

But for those whose hearts are right when He comes back, you can be sure that we will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

He is coming back for a glorious church, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27).

But when the Son of man returns, will He find faith on the earth?

 

[Nancy]

@Nancy;

Like I said, Jesus told us to pray for pre- in Luke 21:36; and a pre-tribulation rapture is also promised to overcomers in Philadelphia (those who keep the word of His patience)...Revelation 3:10.

Jesus gives a stern warning to those who mess up in Thyatira, that they are going to go through the Great Trib (Revelation 2:22).

So then, being in the church doesn't necessarily exempt a person from the Great Trib; or guarantee that they will go up in a pre-tribulation rapture.

But for those whose hearts are right when He comes back, you can be sure that we will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

He is coming back for a glorious church, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27).

But when the Son of man returns, will He find faith on the earth?

Thank you JBF,
Good verses, and they are ones I always fell on to prove the veracity of the PTR. But then, there are those who believe there will be 3 resurrections, the questions about the last Trumpet, which always represents the last day. In John 6 Jesus say's the dead believers will be resurrected on "the last day" so then,
how can the PTR belief have the dead in Christ as rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
followed by a rapture, and this rapture is supposed to happen 7 years before the last day? How many "last days" are there??
Many pre tribbers believe that the "elect" are Jewish people only but then, Paul calls all Christians the "elect"...there is so much to this! I could put much more into this post but, I find it to be unnecessary as, we are to be prepared-either way, yes?
In Him Always,
nancy

 

[justbyfaith]

Have you thought sbout the fact that the last day may not be referring to a literal day in history, but to a period of time?

Thus, the last day might begin with the rapture and end with the 2nd coming of Christ.

Have you also considered that when He returns, we will appear with Him in the clouds (Colossians 3:4)?

The question to be asked is, what purpose would there be for Christ to take us up to meet Him in the air only for us to come back down immediately? I believe that in the interim we will be partaking of that marriage supper of the Lamb.

I would have to look more closely into the significance of all believers being the elect to make a formal decision on how that affects my understanding of pre-tribulation rapture theology. But I have also thought the same.

Personally, I hold to more of a mid-trib, pre-wrath view, with the rapture and the Bema Seat Judgment taking place at the seventh angelic trumpet (in Revelation 11). The idea that it is "the trump of God" does not adequately deal with the concept that it is the last trumpet in my mind. Would it not still come after the seventh trumpet in Revelation, since if it is the last trumpet no trumpet blasts can come after it?

I see a revival happening therefore immediately before the rapture (Revelation 7). Unfortunately, this view places the locusts that hurt men for five months like a scorpion, before the rapture also. However, it also places the rapture before the Antichrist gains full sway with his mark technology so that he is able to force it on everyone on the face of the earth (and so is, in a sense, pre-trib).

 

[Nancy]

Have you thought sbout the fact that the last day may not be referring to a literal day in history, but to a period of time?

Thus, the last day might begin with the rapture and end with the 2nd coming of Christ.

Have you also considered that when He returns, we will appear with Him in the clouds (Colossians 3:4)?

The question to be asked is, what purpose would there be for Christ to take us up to meet Him in the air only for us to come back down immediately? I believe that in the interim we will be partaking of that marriage supper of the Lamb.

I would have to look more closely into the significance of all believers being the elect to make a formal decision on how that affects my understanding of pre-tribulation rapture theology. But I have also thought the same.

Personally, I hold to more of a mid-trib, pre-wrath view, with the rapture and the Bema Seat Judgment taking place at the seventh angelic trumpet (in Revelation 11). The idea that it is "the trump of God" does not adequately deal with the concept that it is the last trumpet in my mind. Would it not still come after the seventh trumpet in Revelation, since if it is the last trumpet no trumpet blasts can come after it?

I see a revival happening therefore immediately before the rapture (Revelation 7). Unfortunately, this view places the locusts that hurt men for five months like a scorpion, before the rapture also. However, it also places the rapture before the Antichrist gains full sway with his mark technology so that he is able to force it on everyone on the face of the earth (and so is, in a sense, pre-trib).

I am with you on this: "Personally, I hold to more of a mid-trib, pre-wrath view, with the rapture and the Bema Seat Judgment taking place at the seventh angelic trumpet (in Revelation 11). The idea that it is "the trump of God" does not adequately deal with the concept that it is the last trumpet in my mind. Would it not still come after the seventh trumpet in Revelation, since if it is the last trumpet no trumpet blasts can come after it?"
All the dispensation views throw me off and confuse so...I leave it be. I have always had a problem with the "timing" of all of these events. One thing we know for sure is that they will take place. God is timeless as, He is Spirit and lives within the realm of eternity-not time as we know it. So, why cannot He do these things in a "twinkling of an eye"? Like, why would we (Christians) have to be doing anything at all such as, the Marriage Supper of The Lamb, getting our new bodies etc...because God can make all things happen in His "time", as it were...instantly? I'm so not good with numbers, dates, years and all so, that could be something that blocks my understanding? Certainly could be that the "last" trump is different from the 7th Trump...but, as I recall, there is also a Trump called "The Trump of God" so...which is which!! Thanks for your reply and, will continue to pray about this all as, my whole family are pre-tribbers as I once was. I only started to question it since further reading of posts on here, Scripture and many commentaries...still stumped

 

[Davy]

So, some think that those who do not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture will be punished?? Wow..that's so off base I cannot even believe those who DO expect this to happen think they are special in some way. Do you not trust God to protect His own during these terrible times?? I can go only so far as Mid-Trib if any at all. I believed this for decades and learned different from much study. What happens if the pre trib rapture does NOT take place? Anyone you might have told about this pre trib rapture will think your God is a liar and will take the mark. Not to mention the Christians who have believed and waited for something that might not happen, what will happen to their faith?? Can we not understand that we need to be PREPARED if it does NOT happen? Are you that SURE? I was, but then there was definitely an aspect of WANTING to believe it...oh yay, I don't have to trust God through these terrible times as, I will just be whisked away into heaven. If you are wrong and are teaching this to everybody who will listen, you will be held accountable. Our beliefs do not get us to heaven...it is faith and trust and obedience to the Living God that will do that.
I am not criticizing your beliefs but, don't be so set in stone with it! Why can we not leave it open and be prepared either way?

But you are so... close. You really don't need to leave it open not being hot or cold.

When the tribulation begins, no one will be alone in their time. Even the atheist will believe on the pseudo-Christ that's coming to play God prior to Christ's return. That's how deceptive he will be. Not being prepared for the first supernatural Messiah that's coming first, prior to our Lord Jesus, means being deceived by that false-Messiah, thinking he's our Lord Jesus. Those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men are especially being prepared for that false one and they don't know it. They think being 'taken' like the woman at the mill is the way to go.

 

[Nancy]

But you are so... close. You really don't need to leave it open not being hot or cold.

When the tribulation begins, no one will be alone in their time. Even the atheist will believe on the pseudo-Christ that's coming to play God prior to Christ's return. That's how deceptive he will be. Not being prepared for the first supernatural Messiah that's coming first, prior to our Lord Jesus, means being deceived by that false-Messiah, thinking he's our Lord Jesus. Those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men are especially being prepared for that false one and they don't know it. They think being 'taken' like the woman at the mill is the way to go.

"Those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men are especially being prepared for that false one and they don't know it. They think being 'taken' like the woman at the mill is the way to go."

Dangerous thinking on their part!

 

[Mal'ak]

See Romans 5:17. It is the gift of righteousness that is given.

It has moved to mindless opinions and as God says, the wisdom of man is trash. I try to help with scripture, you reply with one line opinions. But just to make the point here with Romans 5 you quoted again, I already showed you that you cherry picked 3 words out of an entire chapter to make a doctrine out of it and ignored the entire context of how Paul was talking about Jesus' death the entire time. Instead of responding to the context, you repost 3 words out of an entire chapter to justify an entire doctrine and ignore the context. Which is fine, continue your path, I am not here for force anything.

For others to see this as an example, the problem with someone claiming "God controls all my thoughts and actions so I am perfect". They are in so many words declaring themselves to be God, every action they do in life is God's action and every doctrine they say is spoken directly from God's mouth. So they are always right and they can never be questioned here on forums or else where, as they are the living embodiment of the Father. For the non-God here who are simple sinners, we will just have to stick to scripture and let iron sharpen iron.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jessie Duplantis says if you don't want to go up in the Rapture just stay here and enjoy! 2015r Southwest Believers' Convention: Don't Forget the Cloud===Why do everything the hard way??
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He is a false teaching charlatan, no one should listen to him.

 

[Nancy]

He is a false teaching charlatan, no one should listen to him.

My guess is that their are very few Televangelists who truly teach the Word of God, and are drowned out by the likes of the charlatans. Maybe because it is not "sensational" enough to tickle the ears. If I had to choose one to listen to it would be Charles Stanley. I watched all of them in the 90's and, am so grateful to have pulled away as I learned more and more about the True Word Of God. I even drove to Toronto in 94ish to see Benny Hinn! Yikes!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

My guess is that their are very few Televangelists who truly teach the Word of God, and are drowned out by the likes of the charlatans. Maybe because it is not "sensational" enough to tickle the ears. If I had to choose one to listen to it would be Charles Stanley. I watched all of them in the 90's and, am so grateful to have pulled away as I learned more and more about the True Word Of God. I even drove to Toronto in 94ish to see Benny Hinn! Yikes!

There are many slick speaking false teachers in our day, as 2 pet2 says, they seek to make merchandise of us.
Look up on youtube the movie trailer called American Gospel which exposes many of these clowns

 

[Nancy]

There are many slick speaking false teachers in our day, as 2 pet2 says, they seek to m as keep merchandise of us.
Look up on youtube the movie trailer called American Gospel which exposes many of these clowns

Oh, I know them all. It is shameful and sad that the ones who might have started out sincere have seared their consciences and allowed money and fame to get in the way of the Truth. I fear for them.
I will take a look at your video on YouTube anyhow...just to see who have joined the ranks who have been led astray.
P.S. - There is a second trailer to that as well.

 

[justbyfaith]

I already showed you that you cherry picked 3 words out of an entire chapter

As I have said before, there is a seed capable of sprouting a plant in every cherry.