St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
WHAT???????????
Not "directed at you personally." ???
You just claimed he is "woke" and that his theology is "false".
It was MOST CERTAINLY directed at him personally.
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I'm noticing a trend of thread hijackings and posters following other posters to new threads to continue old arguments
- Thread starter Patrick1966
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Not "directed at you personally." ???
You just claimed he is "woke" and that his theology is "false".
It was MOST CERTAINLY directed at him personally.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Please do.
I object to people claiming that UR is unorthodox.
It was a common doctrine in the early church.
Something we were NOT told in church.
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
Anything that counters the biblical narrative is unorthodox. Sorry @St. SteVen
I started a thread to discuss if people see Universalism as unorthodox: Is Universalism Unorthodox
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
UR does not counter the biblical narrative. It only counters YOUR biblical misinterpretattion.
The irony is that Paul wrote about this when he penned this in a letter of his:
2 Corinthians 4:1-5:5: –– The Light of Christ’s Gospel
4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Cast Down but Unconquered
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed — 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you.
13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed and therefore I spoke,” we also believe and therefore speak, 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God.
Seeing the Invisible
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Assurance of the Resurrection
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
He was speaking of being persecuted for speaking the truth.
In that thread you said "This thread is not intended to be a debate on Universalism itself. Thanks."
Devin can't remember what he posts from one thread to another. He wants discussion and then gets offended when he gets it. I'm putting back on "ignore".
As the reader will see, our resident troll @Jay Ross was NEVER interested in an actual intelligent, loving, discussion regarding the doctrine of Christian Universalism. He ignored my invitation after repeatedly attacking me personally regarding that doctrine in threads that had NOTHING to do with that doctrine. LOL. He too is now on "ignore". Someone tell Jay to go cry some more about it. LOL.
As the reader will see, our resident troll @Jay Ross was NEVER interested in an actual intelligent, loving, discussion regarding the doctrine of Christian Universalism. He ignored my invitation after repeatedly attacking me personally regarding that doctrine in threads that had NOTHING to do with that doctrine. LOL. He too is now on "ignore". Someone tell Jay to go cry some more about it. LOL.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I should answer your uninformed and lame website link questions. (grr...)
1. How should we interpret Jesus’s words regarding ‘hell’ or ‘Gehenna,’ ‘the outer darkness,’ ‘the fire that is not quenched,’ ‘the worm that does not die,’ and the like?
These are obvious Bible mistranslation and bad doctrine issues.
2. If hell is a temporary state but heaven is a forever state, then why are both denoted by the same word as ‘eternal’?
Most of that hinges on the mistranslation of Aionios as "eternal" and "everlasting" instead for an Age, or "Age during".
3. What about the ‘two ways’ theme in the Old and New Testaments?
Usually refers to life in the here and now, not the afterlife.
4. Why did Jesus need to die such a horrible, agonizing death on the cross for our sins?
Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind. Hopefully we can agree on that!
5. How should we interpret the end-times teaching of Revelation?
Some say that it has already taken place. Not a UR position necessarily.
And there is support for UR in Revelation. Every tribe tongue and nation. The healing of the nations.
Should anyone NOT be included?
6. Doesn’t the New Testament show that salvation is connected to faith?
Yes, so does UR.
7. What’s the historic teaching on final salvation in the major branches of Christendom?
UR is not compatible with the CLAIMS of "the historic teaching", which is false.
8. What would happen if Christian congregations or denominations embraced universalism?
Much to say about that. It would signal the end of tribalism between churches and usher in love for ALL of humankind.
Would that be a bad thing?
9. What’s the final destiny of Satan and demons?
Opinions on this differ between UR proponents.
The Bible says that EVERY tongue will confess and EVERY knee will bow.
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. The forgiveness of Satan would be the ULTIMATE triumph of grace.
10. Can sinful people make atonement or satisfaction for their own sins through their own sufferings?
No need to do what has already been done.
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
11. Is it plausible to believe there will be a ‘second chance’ for salvation after death?
From that perspective, countless billions NEVER had a "first chance".
UR is NOT a "second chance". Nothing is left to chance.
12. Is universalism compatible with the Christian mandate to preach the gospel, practice self-denial, and suffer for Christ and the gospel?
Yes. Even more so than most Christians that believe there is ABSOLUTELY no benefit to being a Christian in the here and now.
The USA President is elected to represent all of the citizens of the USA, but how many people actually expressed their desire for the respective elected president to be their president over the time period of the Presidental elections that have occurred.
The respective presidents are considered to be either weak or strong by the people's perception of how closely he complied with the procedural requirements of the governance of the nation.
The question that arises is who is responsible for the governance of the people? Is it the president of the nation who is responsible for the governance of the people or is each and every citizen responsible for their own governance and therefore their future destiny?
Here is the rub with the "Christian Universalism Theology." If the Bible states that God loves everybody and that everybody will be saved eventually, even if the person's life decisions destinies the person for the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Room judgement time, then is it loving if God changes His procedural processes after the time of the GWTRJ and the respective judgement of each and every earthly citizen has been determined and allows them a second chance to have life ever after.
Peoples' choices, before the GWTRJ, determine their everlasting destiny. That is God's procedural determination.
The issue we are faced with is should people accept God's determined process for salvation and everlasting life or should we, on this forum, allow certain members of this forum to advocate that there is a better way for God to save everybody from the destiny of their decisions before the GWTRJ.
These "Christian universalist" became members on this forum and immediately began hijacking other peoples' threads and poking fun at what other members were posting, and when they had established themselves, they began to openly push their theological philosophy on the forum. When the other members began to post against them, they complained to the moderators that people were hijacking their "new" threads and that this should not be allowed by claiming that those members posting contrary views were committing "Hate crimes" against them, that these members were haters of them.
Only once have I appealed to the moderators against another member for misrepresenting me in their posts.
It is clear that this tactic of misrepresenting other members has become the norm on this forum by some people and all cases where people misrepresent other members should be dealt with by the administration people who have the power to do so.
Patrick1966 is a very smart person who knows how to use the system to his advantage, but this false argument tactic is not hidden from the other members, and they will appropriately choose how they will deal with these sort of posts.
Oh well, it seems that the Christianity board has descended into the Animal Farm scenario plot where the pigs are more privileged than the other farm animals.
May God have mercy on our soles as we trudge through life searching for answers to our questions.
Shalom
The respective presidents are considered to be either weak or strong by the people's perception of how closely he complied with the procedural requirements of the governance of the nation.
The question that arises is who is responsible for the governance of the people? Is it the president of the nation who is responsible for the governance of the people or is each and every citizen responsible for their own governance and therefore their future destiny?
Here is the rub with the "Christian Universalism Theology." If the Bible states that God loves everybody and that everybody will be saved eventually, even if the person's life decisions destinies the person for the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Room judgement time, then is it loving if God changes His procedural processes after the time of the GWTRJ and the respective judgement of each and every earthly citizen has been determined and allows them a second chance to have life ever after.
Peoples' choices, before the GWTRJ, determine their everlasting destiny. That is God's procedural determination.
The issue we are faced with is should people accept God's determined process for salvation and everlasting life or should we, on this forum, allow certain members of this forum to advocate that there is a better way for God to save everybody from the destiny of their decisions before the GWTRJ.
These "Christian universalist" became members on this forum and immediately began hijacking other peoples' threads and poking fun at what other members were posting, and when they had established themselves, they began to openly push their theological philosophy on the forum. When the other members began to post against them, they complained to the moderators that people were hijacking their "new" threads and that this should not be allowed by claiming that those members posting contrary views were committing "Hate crimes" against them, that these members were haters of them.
Only once have I appealed to the moderators against another member for misrepresenting me in their posts.
It is clear that this tactic of misrepresenting other members has become the norm on this forum by some people and all cases where people misrepresent other members should be dealt with by the administration people who have the power to do so.
Patrick1966 is a very smart person who knows how to use the system to his advantage, but this false argument tactic is not hidden from the other members, and they will appropriately choose how they will deal with these sort of posts.
Oh well, it seems that the Christianity board has descended into the Animal Farm scenario plot where the pigs are more privileged than the other farm animals.
May God have mercy on our soles as we trudge through life searching for answers to our questions.
Shalom
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