In our image..

[BeyondET]

The appearance of human was before man was created. God didn’t change His appearance after creating man.

Ezekiel 1:26
And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why do JW's think they are Bible language experts? Oh that's right, Kingdom Hall told them they are.

Last time I looked the building was silent...it tells us nothing.....its the Bible that tells us what to believe....and FYI, the Bible says that both God and his son are "saviors"....the one who sends the savior is also a savior.....did that ever occur to you?

Titus 1:3-4...KJV...
"But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."
Both are called "Saviors" individually......and from your own "Christian Bible"....

Dontcha just hate it when it does that...?

You are no Bible student...are you? Perhaps a little research before you stick your foot in your mouth again may be in order....
The Mounce is a recognized Interlinear and nothing to do with JW's......you seem obsessed with us for some reason.....the Kingdom Hall is a building...in case we haven't told you that enough times.....ignorance makes a fool of people.....

why do you keep doing it?

 

[Jack]

Last time I looked the building was silent...it tells us nothing.....

Kingdom Hall is deserted? Great! Alas, Satan's messengers are running rampant leading people to "the everlasting fire".

Its the Bible that tells us what to believe...

JW's don't even believe their own NWT that says Jesus is God and Hell is everlasting! Maybe you need to call an emergency conference and edit your NWT?

and FYI, the Bible says that both God and his son are "saviors"....the one who sends the savior is also a savior.....did that ever occur to you?

There's ONLY one Savior. God!

Hosea 13
4 You shall know no God but Me; For there is no Savior besides Me.

Titus 1:3-4...KJV...
"But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Amen! Jesus is our God and Savior!

4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."

Both are called "Saviors" individually......and from your own "Christian Bible"....

Dontcha just hate it when it does that...?

You are no Bible student...are you? Perhaps a little research before you stick your foot in your mouth again may be in order....
The Mounce is a recognized Interlinear and nothing to do with JW's......you seem obsessed with us for some reason.....the Kingdom Hall is a building...in case we haven't told you that enough times.....ignorance makes a fool of people.....

why do you keep doing it?

I hope you don't follow Kingdom Hall the Hallway to Hell fire all the way to the Lake of Fire. There may be hope for you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Kingdom Hall is deserted?

Far from it....its just that buildings don't talk.....does yours?

JW's don't even believe their own NWT that says Jesus is God and Hell is everlasting! Maybe you need to call an emergency conference and edit your NWT?

Please show us these scriptures....we'd love to see them....but you never post them.....I have a feeling someone told you this and you believed them.....do you always believe whatever is told to you? The Jews did this when Jesus walked the earth....they had no idea that they had been lied to for centuries....are you just like them? Blind in your hatred? Not willing to even allow the scriptures themselves to correct you?

There's ONLY one Savior. God!

Titus tells us that both the Father and the son are saviors....yet apparently you can't read....or is it that don't want to?

Titus 1:3-4...KJV.....your own "Christian Bible"....
"But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."
Both are called "Saviors" individually......and from your own "KJV"....

You can't see that...? Didn't register? You know better than the apostle Paul do you?

Have you ever studied the Bible? From your responses it would appear that you have never read it.
Perhaps some research might dispel your ignorance.....? Why don't you try it?

The Mounce Interlinear is a recognized reference work and is nothing to do with JW's.....I am quoting the same scholars who believe as you do....do you want to argue with them perhaps? Good grief....

 

[Wrangler]

as far as I can see, the trinity contradicts God's word.

Ha! The trinity contradicts itself! Of course it's going to contradict any rational analysis:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

 

[TLHKAJ]

The simple Biblically verified reason why Titus uses the phrase "God our Savior" is because Jesus is God!

 

[DanielConway]

▾
The bible addresses the creation of the Angels, the natural order, and Man. NOWHERE does it speak of the creation of a powerful spirit being intermediate in power and authority between God and the Angeles. On its face you MUST admit that assertion is as much of the a doctrinally driven construct as the trinity. Note: "The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God," The word translated as "radiates" here expressly implies an internal radiance, not a reflection of some sort, expressly implying that all God's characteristics are innate to the Son, and that must of a course, by the Hebrew definition and divinely inspired concept of G-d, include eternal existence and a co-eval status.

Jesus Christ Is God’s Son

1Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. 3The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. 4This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names.

The Son Is Greater Than the Angels

5For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:
“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.a”
God also said,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”b

6And when he brought his supremec Son into the world, God said,d
“Let all of God’s angels worship him.”e
7Regarding the angels, he says,
“He sends his angels like the winds,
his servants like flames of fire.”f

8But to the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
9You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.”g

10He also says to the Son,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain forever.
They will wear out like old clothing.
12You will fold them up like a cloak
and discard them like old clothing.
But you are always the same;
you will live forever.”h

13And God never said to any of the angels,

“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.”i

14Therefore, angels are only servants—spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

KJV Colossians 1:10-18
First and foremost, the context squarely surrounds the resurrection of Christ and the results after it.
[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

I see all of it to be in association with Jesus as being himself the first resurrection, and therefore He is:
the Firstborn from the dead.
the Firstborn of many brethren.
the Firstborn of every [New] creature.

I think how you're seeing Colossians 1:15 ignores verses 16-18. Through the firstborn of creation, who is the only begotten Son of God, the only True God YHWH created all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth through him and for him. So the only begotten Son of God is indeed YHWH God firstborn. The only-begotten Son of God is the beginning of creation by God as Revelation 3:14 says.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.
Hosea 13
4 You shall know no God but Me; For there is no Savior besides Me.

Those that don't recognize Jesus being the only begotten Son of YHWH God, who is the seed of promise that YHWH God promised, then they have no saviour.YHWH God sent his only begotten Son to mankind, not himself. So those who don't exercise faith that YHWH God sent his only begotten Son to mankind, and who doesn't exercise faith that it was YHWH God only begotten Son that sacrificed his life for them, and that YHWH God resurrected his only begotten Son three days after his death, do not have,a saviour.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The simple Biblically verified reason why Titus uses the phrase "God our Savior" is because Jesus is God!

But that is NOT what Paul says.....
"But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour." (NKJV)

He identifies God as our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior in the same passage...separately.
You are reading into these words what you want to see, but you forget what Paul also wrote on behalf of all the other apostles....
"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 NKJV)

If the apostles recognized "the Father" as their "ONE GOD" collectively, and Jesus Christ as their "one Lord".....calling Jesus "Lord" is not calling him God.

Does Paul contradict himself? Would God permit him to do that.....or is it that misinterpretation is at work here to promote something Jesus and his apostles never taught? They did not introduce the trinity....the Catholic church did....and that was over 300 years after Christ's death.
What do the scriptures themselves tell you in direct statements rather than in ambiguous verses that can be manipulated to say something else?

 

[DanielConway]

But that is NOT what Paul says.....
"But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour." (NKJV)

He identifies God as our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior in the same passage...separately.
You are reading into these words what you want to see, but you forget what Paul also wrote on behalf of all the other apostles....
"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 NKJV)

If the apostles recognized "the Father" as their "ONE GOD" collectively, and Jesus Christ as their "one Lord".....calling Jesus "Lord" is not calling him God.

Does Paul contradict himself? Would God permit him to do that.....or is it that misinterpretation is at work here to promote something Jesus and his apostles never taught? They did not introduce the trinity....the Catholic church did....and that was over 300 years after Christ's death.
What do the scriptures themselves tell you in direct statements rather than in ambiguous verses that can be manipulated to say something else?

A little comment. The word translated as a simple copulative "and" from Corinthians carries in the Greek more than just a copulative
meaning, but also a cumulative connotation, that is it can be read "additionally", in the sense that the dominant phrase as a unit is built upon by the secondary. See Strong's below. Put bluntly, the Greek does not necessarily imply a disjoint of the phrases, but a cumulative construction. This is especially true given the poetical alliterations of the phrases "one God, the father" and "one Lord Jesus Christ".


The KJV translates Strong's G2532 in the following manner: and (8,173x), also (514x), even (108x), both (43x), then (20x), so (18x), likewise (13x), not tr. (350x), miscellaneous (31x), variations of 'and' (1x).

 

[Jack]

Far from it....its just that buildings don't talk.....does yours?

Kingdom Hall tells LIES, lots of LIES!

Please show us these scriptures....we'd love to see them....but you never post them.....

Another Kingdom Hall LIE!
John 20:28 NWT Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God".

I have a feeling someone told you this and you believed them.....do you always believe whatever is told to you? The Jews did this when Jesus walked the earth....they had no idea that they had been lied to for centuries....are you just like them? Blind in your hatred? Not willing to even allow the scriptures themselves to correct you

I certainly don't believe anything Kingdom Hall victims tell me.

Titus tells us that both the Father and the son are saviors....yet apparently you can't read....or is it that don't want to?

Titus 1:3-4...KJV.....your own "Christian Bible"....
"But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."
Both are called "Saviors" individually......and from your own "KJV"....

You can't see that...? Didn't register? You know better than the apostle Paul do you?

Have you ever studied the Bible? From your responses it would appear that you have never read it.
Perhaps some research might dispel your ignorance.....? Why don't you try it?

The Mounce Interlinear is a recognized reference work and is nothing to do with JW's.....I am quoting the same scholars who believe as you do....do you want to argue with them perhaps? Good grief....

Should I believe Kingdom Hall messengers or God?
Isaiah 43
11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Jesus is God my Savior!

 

[Jack]

Those that don't recognize Jesus being the only begotten Son of YHWH God, who is the seed of promise that YHWH God promised, then they have no saviour.YHWH God sent his only begotten Son to mankind, not himself. So those who don't exercise faith that YHWH God sent his only begotten Son to mankind, and who doesn't exercise faith that it was YHWH God only begotten Son that sacrificed his life for them, and that YHWH God resurrected his only begotten Son three days after his death, do not have,a saviour.

Are you the JW that said our Savior "ceased to exist" for 3 days? We didn't have a Savior for 3 days? If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior. You're heading for Hell fire.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Are you the JW that said our Savior "ceased to exist" for 3 days? We didn't have a Savior for 3 days?

I, unlike you, don't believe Jesus to be God. I believe the only begotten Son of YHWH God was sent to mankind. So that means that the True God YHWH never ceased to exist. I said the only begotten Son of YHWH God didn't exist for parts of three days, not YHWH God. In scripture both YHWH God and Jesus Christ are saviors. The True God YHWH promised a seed to undo what Satan did in the garden of Eden.(Genesis 3:15) This prophecy at Genesis 3:15 came from YHWH God and he is speaking about the kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven/ Messianic kingdom. Jesus Christ who is the only begotten Son of YHWH God is the primary seed of that kingdom. The primary seed of that kingdoms heel was struck by the serpent when Satan influenced the Jews in the nation of Israel to put Jesus to death, but YHWH God resurrected Jesus Christ who is the only begotten Son of YHWH God back into existence as a living person after being in nonexistence as a living person for parts of three days. So since YHWH God is also a savior and it's impossible for the True God YHWH to die, death being the opposite of life, our Savior who prophesied the seed, who is the True God YHWH has always existed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

A little comment. The word translated as a simple copulative "and" from Corinthians carries in the Greek more than just a copulative
meaning, but also a cumulative connotation, that is it can be read "additionally", in the sense that the dominant phrase as a unit is built upon by the secondary. See Strong's below. Put bluntly, the Greek does not necessarily imply a disjoint of the phrases, but a cumulative construction. This is especially true given the poetical alliterations of the phrases "one God, the father" and "one Lord Jesus Christ".


The KJV translates Strong's G2532 in the following manner: and (8,173x), also (514x), even (108x), both (43x), then (20x), so (18x), likewise (13x), not tr. (350x), miscellaneous (31x), variations of 'and' (1x).

And who is that determines which way it is translated.....? If the translators have a leaning towards the trinity, then of course they would render it with an appropriate "poetical alliteration"....or you can just read it the way it is written....

Here it is in the Mounce Interlinear....
"to Titus Titos, a true gnēsios son teknon in kata a common koinos faith pistis: Grace charis and kai peace eirēnē from apo God theos the Father patēr and kai Christ Christos Jesus Iēsous · ho our hēmeis Savior sōtēr."

Can you find me a single translation that renders "AND" in that verse there, any other way?

You are making up excuses to promote something the Bible never says....something Jesus never taught.

 

[Wrangler]

... it can be read...

You are making up excuses to promote something the Bible never says....something Jesus never taught.

It's far worse than an excuse; it's an absurd rationalization. Just because something has POTENTIAL (can be) does not mean it is ACTUAL. It's not just that they speculate; they extrapolate a possible interpretation is the only and best interpretation. A great example is houtos in John 1:2 is not "he" but "this" as it is in 6:60.

They hang their hat on supposing Reading Comprehension is subjective. Turn around is fair play. How can the following verses be read?

1. 'For us, there is one God, the Father.'
2. God is the head of Christ.
3. God and Father of Jesus.
4. God raised his servant Jesus from the dead.

They can be read to reject the false, inherently contradictory and anti-Biblical doctrine of the trinity. Trinitarians certainly do not extend the same validity of speculating AGAINST their doctrine. We all know why that is. One trinitarian was so biased as to assert the Sh'ma is actually good evidence in favor of the trinity. When I asked what would actually be good evidence AGAINST the trinity ... Crickets ... Crickets... Crickets ... They cannot admit ANY rejection criteria, any POSSIBLE evidence against 3-is-1-ism.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

How long were you brainwashed at Satan's Kingdom Hall, leading people to the everlasting fire? MANY years I'd bet!

What I don't like jack, is when I went to churches that said they believe in the Trinity when I first started going to church these churches didn't encourage people to understand the trinity, they didn't teach about it at all. Now I agree it's my fault for not looking in a Bible dictionary and finding out the definition of the trinity myself when I was going to these churches that believed in the Trinity doctrine, like I said is my fault, but when I did hear the definition of the trinity doctrine from a Jehovah's Witness I decided to look in a Bible dictionary which had nothing to do with the Jehovah's Witnesses and that definition of the trinity doctrine in that Bible dictionary agreed with the definition the Jehovah's Witnesses told me and when I looked at other Bible dictionaries that had nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses they gave me different definitions of the trinity doctrine. Now I've never seen any of the concepts of the trinity doctrine these Bible dictionaries taught in the scriptures Jack. These definitions of the trinity that I discovered in these Bible dictionaries that had nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses deny that God has an only begotten Son. I have always believed that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God I've never believed he was God. What you don't like about me is that I've always believed that God has an only begotten Son that he sent to mankind long before I knew who Jehovah's Witness were. You want to blame Jehovah's Witnesses for me believing that God has an only begotten Son that he sent to mankind long before I knew who Jehovah Witnesses we're. So quit blaming Jehovah's Witnesses for me always believing that the True God YHWH has an only begotten Son that he sent to mankind. I've always believed that long before I even heard of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's those churches that believe in the Trinity doctrine that have lied to me, that have brainwashed me into believing they were churches who believe that the True God has an only begotten Son that he sent to mankind, when the whole time they didn't believe Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God they believe him to be God. Quit blaming Jehovah's Witnesses for what the churches that believe in the Trinity have lied to me about. Jehovah's Witnesses have always believed what I have always believed that God has a only begotten Son who he sent to mankind to save mankind. Trinity churches deny this not Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Jack]

And who is that determines which way it is translated.....? If the translators have a leaning towards the trinity, then of course they would render it with an appropriate "poetical alliteration"....or you can just read it the way it is written....

Here it is in the Mounce Interlinear....
"to Titus Titos, a true gnēsios son teknon in kata a common koinos faith pistis: Grace charis and kai peace eirēnē from apo God theos the Father patēr and kai Christ Christos Jesus Iēsous · ho our hēmeis Savior sōtēr."

Can you find me a single translation that renders "AND" in that verse there, any other way?

You are making up excuses to promote something the Bible never says....something Jesus never taught.

How long were you brainwashed at Kingdom Hall?

 

[Jack]

It's far worse than an excuse; it's an absurd rationalization. Just because something has POTENTIAL (can be) does not mean it is ACTUAL. It's not just that they speculate; they extrapolate a possible interpretation is the only and best interpretation. A great example is houtos in John 1:2 is not "he" but "this" as it is in 6:60.

They hang their hat on supposing Reading Comprehension is subjective. Turn around is fair play. How can the following verses be read?

1. 'For us, there is one God, the Father.'
2. God is the head of Christ.
3. God and Father of Jesus.
4. God raised his servant Jesus from the dead.

They can be read to reject the false, inherently contradictory and anti-Biblical doctrine of the trinity. Trinitarians certainly do not extend the same validity of speculating AGAINST their doctrine. We all know why that is. One trinitarian was so biased as to assert the Sh'ma is actually good evidence in favor of the trinity. When I asked what would actually be good evidence AGAINST the trinity ... Crickets ... Crickets... Crickets ... They cannot admit ANY rejection criteria, any POSSIBLE evidence against 3-is-1-ism.

Oh wow! Kingdom Hall has invaded!

 

[DanielConway]

And who is that determines which way it is translated.....? If the translators have a leaning towards the trinity, then of course they would render it with an appropriate "poetical alliteration"....or you can just read it the way it is written....

Here it is in the Mounce Interlinear....
"to Titus Titos, a true gnēsios son teknon in kata a common koinos faith pistis: Grace charis and kai peace eirēnē from apo God theos the Father patēr and kai Christ Christos Jesus Iēsous · ho our hēmeis Savior sōtēr."

Can you find me a single translation that renders "AND" in that verse there, any other way?

You are making up excuses to promote something the Bible never says....something Jesus never taught.

It's far worse than an excuse; it's an absurd rationalization. Just because something has POTENTIAL (can be) does not mean it is ACTUAL. It's not just that they speculate; they extrapolate a possible interpretation is the only and best interpretation. A great example is houtos in John 1:2 is not "he" but "this" as it is in 6:60.

They hang their hat on supposing Reading Comprehension is subjective. Turn around is fair play. How can the following verses be read?

1. 'For us, there is one God, the Father.'
2. God is the head of Christ.
3. God and Father of Jesus.
4. God raised his servant Jesus from the dead.

They can be read to reject the false, inherently contradictory and anti-Biblical doctrine of the trinity. Trinitarians certainly do not extend the same validity of speculating AGAINST their doctrine. We all know why that is. One trinitarian was so biased as to assert the Sh'ma is actually good evidence in favor of the trinity. When I asked what would actually be good evidence AGAINST the trinity ... Crickets ... Crickets... Crickets ... They cannot admit ANY rejection criteria, any POSSIBLE evidence against 3-is-1-ism.

You're both pretty goofy. The questionable portion of the translation, the one presumably subject to doctrinal bias, is not the poetic alliterations of "God the father" and "Christ Jesus our savior", that portion of the translation is rendered with the same re-enforcing rhythm in every translation I am aware of, including the Mounce Interliner you quote. The portion of the translation that is subject to rethinking is the translation of kia as just the simple copulative "and" when the structure of the primary and secondary phrases strongly hint at a better meaning of "together with". And if I may address the issue of doctrinally influenced constructs, where does the typical average Jehova's Witness get the doctrinal point of Christ being some sort of first creation just below God but above the Angels? That's not in any of my translations.
Now let's address 1 Corinthians 8:6, which you conveniently only quoted half of:" yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." Again we find the same re-enforcing rhythm, only with a pendameter twice as long, as in Corinthians. You see koinania Greek was streety and slangy, and like a lot of modern slang it could express an idea through cockney style urban grease speak that might not show up well with a straightly literal rendering.