In the book of Revelation it mentions 'a little season' twice.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol. You are in no position to lecture any of us. Your Millennium is full of billions of religious phonies feigning their adherence to Christ, and going through all the religious motions of going to Jerusalem every year to worship Him, when in fact they are rebels against God at heart. Talk about deception!

Notice how he talks about the ones referenced in Revelation 20:8, as wanting to rebel during the thousand years, but he says they are kept from doing so by Jesus and His followers keeping them in line with their rods of iron. So, they supposedly can't rebel during the thousand years and then do so when the thousand years ends. But, he believes that Zechariah 14:16-21 relates to the thousand years and that passage talks about people being punished if they do not obey God and go to Jerusalem to worship Him and keep the feast of tabernacles. So, he is contradicting the passage he relies on the most to support his interpretation of Revelation 20 by saying that rebellion can't occur during the thousand years and can only occur after it ends. That passage (Zech 14:16-21), if it related to the thousand years, indicates otherwise. There obviously would be no warning of a punishment for rebellion if it wasn't possible for any rebellion to occur.

 

[Davidpt]

Lol. You are in no position to lecture any of us. Your Millennium is full of billions of religious phonies feigning their adherence to Christ, and going through all the religious motions of going to Jerusalem every year to worship Him, when in fact they are rebels against God at heart. Talk about deception!

LOL right back at your absurd nonsense that only Amils could be naive enough to fall for. Your version of the millennium is a complete disconnect with what happened in the beginning per satan and Eve. You argue absurd nonsense, such as, if Christ is bodily present on the earth during the millennium, how can anyone rebel against him after the millennium? Then you don't even remain consistent in your thinking of things, by using that as an argument in regards to Eve and satan in the beginning.

Obviously, maybe to everyone except you for all I know, before satan deceived Eve, no one can deny that God was literally bodily present among Adam and Eve before they fell. Which obviously means that both Adam and Eve knew their Creator face to face, literally, that they both knew who created them, therefore, making their Creator their master.

Why isn't it then, that you are not arguing in the same manner in regards to Eve that you are arguing against per Premil's proposed millennium and little season? Per the former, you don't dare question how can someone be in God's literal bodily presence then rebel against Him after having been in His presence. You don't find that problematic at all.

Yet, you then question this exact same concept when it comes to Premil's version of the millennium and little season. As in, how in the world is it reasonable after God having been bodily present for 1000 years, can anyone then rebel against Him afterwards? Be reasonable here though, if you see that being a problem. Use Eve before the fall and after the fall to solve your alleged problem with. Which then means there is no problem at all since there is no problem involving Eve before and after the fall, that God can literally bodily be dwelling among someone and that that someone can still rebel against Him, regardless.

Clearly, you don't understand the end because you have it totally disconnected from the beginning per your view. During the beginning God was literally bodily present at the time. During the beginning no one was being deceived before someone deceived them first. During the beginning, Eve rebelled against God when she was deceived, regardless that she literally saw God face to face before she was deceived. If that can happen in the beginning, why are you arguing that that can't also happen in the end? Why are you arguing that history can't repeat itself? As if there is no such thing as history repeating itself. Not to mention. Even before Eve rebelled against God, so did satan rebel against God, but earlier than Eve did.

Amils, such as you, clearly lack the capability to think outside of the Amil box you have put everything in.

 

[WPM]

LOL right back at your absurd nonsense that only Amils could be naive enough to fall for. Your version of the millennium is a complete disconnect with what happened in the beginning per satan and Eve. You argue absurd nonsense, such as, if Christ is bodily present on the earth during the millennium, how can anyone rebel against him after the millennium? Then you don't even remain consistent in your thinking of things, by using that as an argument in regards to Eve and satan in the beginning.

Obviously, maybe to everyone except you for all I know, before satan deceived Eve, no one can deny that God was literally bodily present among Adam and Eve before they fell. Which obviously means that both Adam and Eve knew their Creator face to face, literally, that they both knew who created them, therefore, making their Creator their master.

Why isn't it then, that you are not arguing in the same manner in regards to Eve that you are arguing against per Premil's proposed millennium and little season? Per the former, you don't dare question how can someone be in God's literal bodily presence then rebel against Him after having been in His presence. You don't find that problematic at all.

Yet, you then question this exact same concept when it comes to Premil's version of the millennium and little season. As in, how in the world is it reasonable after God having been bodily present for 1000 years, can anyone then rebel against Him afterwards? Be reasonable here though, if you see that being a problem. Use Eve before the fall and after the fall to solve your alleged problem with. Which then means there is no problem at all since there is no problem involving Eve before and after the fall, that God can literally bodily be dwelling among someone and that that someone can still rebel against Him, regardless.

Clearly, you don't understand the end because you have it totally disconnected from the beginning per your view. During the beginning God was literally bodily present at the time. During the beginning no one was being deceived before someone deceived them first. During the beginning, Eve rebelled against God when she was deceived, regardless that she literally saw God face to face before she was deceived. If that can happen in the beginning, why are you arguing that that can't also happen in the end? Why are you arguing that history can't repeat itself? As if there is no such thing as history repeating itself. Not to mention. Even before Eve rebelled against God, so did satan rebel against God, but earlier than Eve did.

Amils, such as you, clearly lack the capability to think outside of the Amil box you have put everything in.

1. Who are Gog and Magog?
2. How do they grow to a number as the sand of the sea in such an alleged perfect pristine environment?
3. How do they enter your millennium? Where do they come from?
4. What qualifies them to enter?
5. What qualifies them to miss the sudden destruction that accompanies Christ's return, from which says, none shall escape?
6. On what grounds do they become sinless?
7. How can so many so easily change en-masse from being committed followers of Christ to being totally sold-out committed Satanists?
8. How could they do this in such a supposed perfect environment?
9. Does that not make them the greatest company of deceived fools that ever lived?

 

[WPM]

Clearly, you don't understand the end because you have it totally disconnected from the beginning per your view. During the beginning God was literally bodily present at the time. During the beginning no one was being deceived before someone deceived them first. During the beginning, Eve rebelled against God when she was deceived, regardless that she literally saw God face to face before she was deceived. If that can happen in the beginning, why are you arguing that that can't also happen in the end? Why are you arguing that history can't repeat itself? As if there is no such thing as history repeating itself. Not to mention. Even before Eve rebelled against God, so did satan rebel against God, but earlier than Eve did.

Amils, such as you, clearly lack the capability to think outside of the Amil box you have put everything in.

LOL. You make it up as you go.

1. How can the earth go on as it is after” the end”?
2. How can there be a prolonged period of time after “the last (or final) day”?
3. How can there be a prolonged period of time after time (or chronos) shall be no longer?
4. How can there be an age in-between this age and the age to come when Scripture only recognizes a 2-age framework?

 

[Davidpt]

Lol. You are in no position to lecture any of us. Your Millennium is full of billions of religious phonies feigning their adherence to Christ, and going through all the religious motions of going to Jerusalem every year to worship Him, when in fact they are rebels against God at heart. Talk about deception!

You scoff at the idea that people would rebel after 1,000 years of Christ’s physical reign on Earth, pretty much saying it makes Premil laughable. But have you forgotten how the story began?

Adam and Eve lived in perfect conditions. God was literally present with them. They knew Him directly---and still rebelled. Eve was deceived, even in God's immediate presence. Are you suggesting that Christ’s presence in the Millennium should somehow override human free will in a way that even Eden didn’t?

Your argument falls apart under its own weight. You're fine with rebellion happening in Eden---even with God's direct presence---but then mock Premil for holding that it could happen again at the end, during the "little season" in Revelation 20. That’s inconsistent on your part.

History doesn’t just repeat itself---it reveals the heart of humanity. If satan and Eve can rebel in God's presence in the beginning, why can’t humanity do it again after the Millennium? That’s not a flaw in Premil---it’s a confirmation of what Scripture already shows us: being in God’s presence doesn’t eliminate the human capacity for rebellion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL right back at your absurd nonsense that only Amils could be naive enough to fall for. Your version of the millennium is a complete disconnect with what happened in the beginning per satan and Eve. You argue absurd nonsense, such as, if Christ is bodily present on the earth during the millennium, how can anyone rebel against him after the millennium? Then you don't even remain consistent in your thinking of things, by using that as an argument in regards to Eve and satan in the beginning.

Obviously, maybe to everyone except you for all I know, before satan deceived Eve, no one can deny that God was literally bodily present among Adam and Eve before they fell. Which obviously means that both Adam and Eve knew their Creator face to face, literally, that they both knew who created them, therefore, making their Creator their master.

God is Spirit and does not have a body (John 4:24). He was not "literally bodily present among Adam and Eve before they fell". He talked to them and such, but God does not have a body. Jesus is God and also man and has a body, but God the Father does not have a body and Jesus (the Word) did not have a body yet at that time. Also, Adam and Eve were not in God's presence for anywhere near a thousand years before they sinned. So, this is not a valid comparison that you're trying to make here.

Why isn't it then, that you are not arguing in the same manner in regards to Eve that you are arguing against per Premil's proposed millennium and little season? Per the former, you don't dare question how can someone be in God's literal bodily presence then rebel against Him after having been in His presence. You don't find that problematic at all.

If they had been in His presence for a thousand years without rebelling against Him, it would not be reasonable that they would then suddenly decide to rebel against Him after faithfully serving Him for a thousand years.

If you are so confident that Premil is true, then how about you be the first Premil to actually address my original posts in this thread: Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You scoff at the idea that people would rebel after 1,000 years of Christ’s physical reign on Earth, pretty much saying it makes Premil laughable. But have you forgotten how the story began?

Adam and Eve lived in perfect conditions. God was literally present with them. They knew Him directly---and still rebelled. Eve was deceived, even in God's immediate presence. Are you suggesting that Christ’s presence in the Millennium should somehow override human free will in a way that even Eden didn’t?

You are the one who says that Christ's presence in the Millennium would override human free will. You said this earlier..

Per my view, they, meaning those in Revelation 20:8, though they are no longer deceived during the millennium, yet possibly unwilling in their obedience--- they endured Christ’s reign but didn’t love it. Once Satan is loosed, he gives them the ideological and spiritual motivation to act on a rebellion they’ve long wanted but couldn’t pursue during the millennium because Christ and His saints have been ruling over them with a rod of iron. When satan is loosed this ruling them with a rod of iron is lifted in order to test them.

You have Christ and His saints overriding human free will with their rods of iron, preventing people from acting "on a rebellion they've long wanted" until the thousand years ends.

Your argument falls apart under its own weight. You're fine with rebellion happening in Eden---even with God's direct presence---but then mock Premil for holding that it could happen again at the end, during the "little season" in Revelation 20. That’s inconsistent on your part.

Comparing one act of rebellion that occurred after a period of days of being in God's presence to rebelling after a period of a thousand years being in Christ's presence in all His glory is not a case of comparing like things. If Adam and Eve had managed to not rebel for a thousand years, is it reasonable to think that they would suddenly decide to rebel after a thousand years? Of course not. For them to stay faithful and obedient for a thousand years would indicate that they had decided that's how they wanted to be. To think that they would suddenly change their minds after a thousand years is not reasonable at all.

 

[Davidpt]

1. Who are Gog and Magog?
2. How do they grow to a number as the sand of the sea in such an alleged perfect pristine environment?
3. How do they enter your millennium? Where do they come from?
4. What qualifies them to enter?
5. What qualifies them to miss the sudden destruction that accompanies Christ's return, from which says, none shall escape?
6. On what grounds do they become sinless?
7. How can so many so easily change en-masse from being committed followers of Christ to being totally sold-out committed Satanists?
8. How could they do this in such a supposed perfect environment?
9. Does that not make them the greatest company of deceived fools that ever lived?

1. Who are Gog and Magog?

Revelation 20:8 already tells us who they are--- the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth. Which then tells me that they are living outside of Jerusalem, not in the midst of it instead.

2. How do they grow to a number as the sand of the sea in such an alleged perfect pristine environment?

Who says their numbers continue to grow? Even 1 million ppl, for example, could qualify as a number as the sand of the sea


3. How do they enter your millennium? Where do they come from?

Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, tells us how. And so does Daniel 7:12, IMO.

4. What qualifies them to enter?

You will have to take that up with God and Zechariah 14:16-19 and Daniel 7:12.

5. What qualifies them to miss the sudden destruction that accompanies Christ's return, from which says, none shall escape?

That passage doesn't say none escape. That passage only says everyone in the beast's armies are the ones that don't escape. Obviously, not everyone is in the beast's armies since Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled, and that Zechariah 14:12 is likely involving Revelation 19:21. Instead of getting these Scriptures to square, you want to pit them against each other then insist that what is recorded in the NT trumps what is recorded in the OT. As if only the NT is holy writ, the OT isn't. Or that both are holy writ, except the NT is more holy writ than the OT. I do not find either of those options acceptable. Therefore, unlike you in this case, I do not pit the OT against the NT, I try and find a way to get them to agree not contradict.


6. On what grounds do they become sinless?

LOL. who says they become sinless? As if, per this Premil scenario, sinless people are going to be devoured by God in the end. Therefore, you are misrepresenting Premil and also misrepresenting common sense in general at the same time since you are claiming Premils have those meant in Revelation 20:8 being sinless. That's right, I almost forgot. It's perfectly ok for Amils to misrepresent Premil, though.


7. How can so many so easily change en-masse from being committed followers of Christ to being totally sold-out committed Satanists?

What an argument. Why don't you try answering that argument using Eve before and after the fall in order to do so? Or use that argument using satan and the billions of angels that rebelled with him when he initially fell, to make your argument.

8. How could they do this in such a supposed perfect environment?

LOL. What an argument. Refer back to what I just said per question 7 on your list.



9. Does that not make them the greatest company of deceived fools that ever lived?

Once again, refer back to what I said per number 7 on your list.

 

[WPM]

1... Revelation 20:8 already tells us who they are--- the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth. Which then tells me that they are living outside of Jerusalem, not in the midst of it instead.

Stop avoiding the question. Who are they?

2... Who says their numbers continue to grow? Even 1 million ppl, for example, could qualify as a number as the sand of the sea

LOL. That is not the sense. To the objective student that has no theological agenda to push, “the sand of the sea” suggests billions. Again, this shows the lengths Premillennialists go to, to spiritualize Scripture away. They're clearly not literalists.

3 ... Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, tells us how. And so does Daniel 7:12, IMO.

Where is a thousand years mentioned in Zechariah 14 or Daniel 7? The fact is: they do not mention your imaginary millennium. This is all fiction and twisting of Scripture.

4... You will have to take that up with God and Zechariah 14:16-19 and Daniel 7:12.

LOL. You have no answers because this is one Almighty elaborate hoax.,

5... That passage doesn't say none escape. That passage only says everyone in the beast's armies are the ones that don't escape. Obviously, not everyone is in the beast's armies since Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled, and that Zechariah 14:12 is likely involving Revelation 19:21. Instead of getting these Scriptures to square, you want to pit them against each other then insist that what is recorded in the NT trumps what is recorded in the OT. As if only the NT is holy writ, the OT isn't. Or that both are holy writ, except the NT is more holy writ than the OT. I do not find either of those options acceptable. Therefore, unlike you in this case, I do not pit the OT against the NT, I try and find a way to get them to agree not contradict.

That is the fallacy of Premillennialism. Premillennialists interpret everything through the lens of their faulty opinion of Zachariah 14 and Revelation 20. Dispute these passages and Premillennialism crumbles.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

6... LOL. who says they become sinless? As if, per this Premil scenario, sinless people are going to be devoured by God in the end. Therefore, you are misrepresenting Premil and also misrepresenting common sense in general at the same time since you are claiming Premils have those meant in Revelation 20:8 being sinless. That's right, I almost forgot. It's perfectly ok for Amils to misrepresent Premil, though.

So, they are a bunch of billions of deceived religious fools, as I said?

7... What an argument. Why don't you try answering that argument using Eve before and after the fall in order to do so? Or use that argument using satan and the billions of angels that rebelled with him when he initially fell, to make your argument.

Yes, what an argument, indeed!!! More avoidance!

How can so many so easily change en-masse from being committed followers of Christ to being totally sold-out committed Satanists? You have non answer. That is because your expectation is a figment of your imagination. It is fantasy land!

8... LOL. What an argument. Refer back to what I just said per question 7 on your list.

More avoidance! Are you acknowledging (what many of us see) that the Premillennial expectation is an invented lie? This supposed perfect environment is nowhere to be found in Rev 20!!!

9... Once again, refer back to what I said per number 7 on your list.

I think you can see what we can see (from your repeated avoidance) that your whole paradigm is a religious joke? They are indeed the greatest company of deceived fools that ever lived. Your imaginary millennium is overrun by billions of phonies.

 

[WPM]

You scoff at the idea that people would rebel after 1,000 years of Christ’s physical reign on Earth, pretty much saying it makes Premil laughable. But have you forgotten how the story began?

Adam and Eve lived in perfect conditions. God was literally present with them. They knew Him directly---and still rebelled. Eve was deceived, even in God's immediate presence. Are you suggesting that Christ’s presence in the Millennium should somehow override human free will in a way that even Eden didn’t?

Your argument falls apart under its own weight. You're fine with rebellion happening in Eden---even with God's direct presence---but then mock Premil for holding that it could happen again at the end, during the "little season" in Revelation 20. That’s inconsistent on your part.

History doesn’t just repeat itself---it reveals the heart of humanity. If satan and Eve can rebel in God's presence in the beginning, why can’t humanity do it again after the Millennium? That’s not a flaw in Premil---it’s a confirmation of what Scripture already shows us: being in God’s presence doesn’t eliminate the human capacity for rebellion.

How can the earth go on as it is after” the end”?
How can there be a prolonged period of time after “the last (or final) day”?
How can there be a prolonged period of time after time (or chronos) shall be no longer?
How can there be an age in-between this age and the age to come when Scripture only recognizes a 2-age framework?

 

[WPM]

Per my view, they, meaning those in Revelation 20:8, though they are no longer deceived during the millennium, yet possibly unwilling in their obedience--- they endured Christ’s reign but didn’t love it. Once Satan is loosed, he gives them the ideological and spiritual motivation to act on a rebellion they’ve long wanted but couldn’t pursue during the millennium because Christ and His saints have been ruling over them with a rod of iron. When satan is loosed this ruling them with a rod of iron is lifted in order to test them.

This is has to be some of the greatest nonsense that has been posted on this board, and that is saying something. You make this up as you go, as you have no Scripture that teaches this. This sums up your theology! You have Christ acting like a tyrant for a thousand years coercing billions of religious phonies to worship Him, when they in fact inwardly hate Him. These same fools then overrun your imaginary millennium as the sand of the sea after a thousand years of Him ruling righteously and unchallenged in a perfect environment Jerusalem.

Then after a thousand-year sham of supposed submission to Christ the nations rise up in rebellion against him as the sand of the sea to surround the camp of the Saints. This debacle will never happen after Christ’s return. This is talking about our current ongoing era of imperfection.

 

[TribulationSigns]

1. Who are Gog and Magog?

Revelation 20:8 already tells us who they are--- the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth. Which then tells me that they are living outside of Jerusalem, not in the midst of it instead.

No.

The one main ingredient or key to understanding the symbolism of the Old Testament Scripture is in understanding the fact that the Old Testament Israel was a prefigure or foreshadow of the New Testament Church - the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16. Our enemies are not literal nations in the Middle East that attacked the Old Testament Israel. The True Worshipper of Christ MUST know and undersnd who we really are. One cannot truly understand the Gog/Magog war apart from realizing that the true believer in Christ is a New Testament Spiritual Jew. Our eternal kingdom, our eternal life resides within and upon the spiritual "mountains" (kingdom) of Israel. Why? Because Jesus Christ "IS" the Israel of Scripture (Exodus 4:22, Matthew 2:14-15, Hosea 11:1, Isaiah 49:1-3, etc.).

The mountains often refered as Kingdom in Scirpture, thus the Mountains of Isarel is a term denoting the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Not literal mountains in Israel. I have explained in Matthew 24 that when we see Satan residing in the church (the New Testament side of the Holy Place), then we who in spiritual Judaea (a term for the Church) are to depart out of the church and flee to the mountains or in other words we are to depart and flee to the kingdom (mountains) of Christ.

We, Elect, are without question the TRUE JEWS and the TRUE ISRAEL of Scripture (both the Gentiles and Jews in Christ). All True believers in Christ (Christ who is Isarel) are indeed spiritual Jews in God's view. Now the nations in Revelation 20 are also understood as Gentiles. God is talking about spiritual gentiles here. The opposite to Spiritual Jews. They are the army of Gog and Magog. After Christ has finished sealing His people through the testimony of Two Witnesses in the church, Satan will then be released from bottomless pit and shall go out to deceive the nations (Gentiles) which are in the four quarter sof the earth - Gog and Magog. Satan is NOT Gog and Magog Himself, but rather Gog and Magog appear to be the armies of Satan; the armies of the emissaries or imposters of Christ (aka false prophets and christs) to spiritually killing or silencing the True Gospel of Salvation through Christ Jesus ALL OVER THE WORLD.

It is quite evident that the time when Ezekiel penned this prophecy, the known world to him could be only these Middle Eastern territories that he speaks of, believing that he is speaking of the nations of the world. These nations, territories, or geographical areas were indeed the known corners of the earth at the time that God inspired Ezekiel to write the prophecies. The many literalists today, including you, who are teaching that this is an end-time battle in the Middle East are reading of the nations mentioned by Ezekiel and are shouting - “You see! See there! It’s all coming down to war in the Middle East! It’s all coming down to a grand invasion of national Israel just like Ezekiel said it would!” The areas mentioned in Ezekiel’s prophecy are NOT focused on the Middle East, these territories mentioned by Ezekiel are lime lighting the nations of the entire world - Gog and Magog - and not specific Middle Eastern nations.

2. How do they grow to a number as the sand of the sea in such an alleged perfect pristine environment?

Who says their numbers continue to grow? Even 1 million ppl, for example, could qualify as a number as the sand of the sea

The number of the false prophets and Christs, including people deceived by them in the Church, are as number of the sand of the sea!

Gog and Magog represent not merely the unsaved masses of the world, but much more deceptive than that, Gog and Magog represent Satan and the “religious” Christian appearing masses of the unsaved throughout the four quarters of the world. This is why Christ warned us in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew Chapter Twenty-four) “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect,” Mathew 24:24. Therefore Satan and his army of imposters encircle the camp of the Saints, the beloved city. Not nations of the world coming down to the nation of Israel as you think.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

As they say, ignorance is bliss

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is has to be some of the greatest nonsense that has been posted on this board, and that is saying something. You make this up as you go, as you have no Scripture that teaches this. This sums up your theology! You have Christ acting like a tyrant for a thousand years coercing billions of religious phonies to worship Him, when they in fact inwardly hate Him. These same fools then overrun your imaginary millennium as the sand of the sea after a thousand years of Him ruling righteously and unchallenged in a perfect environment Jerusalem.

Then after a thousand-year sham of supposed submission to Christ the nations rise up in rebellion against him as the sand of the sea to surround the camp of the Saints. This debacle will never happen after Christ’s return. This is talking about our current ongoing era of imperfection.

He's just making up a nonsensical story in his imagination. It's utterly ridiculous. People wanting to rebel, but they can't? He bases his theory on Zechariah 14:16-19 which would indicate that people can rebel during the thousand years, but he contradicts his interpretation of that passage by saying that people can't rebel during the thousand years. He is confused. Premil is full of contradictions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1. Who are Gog and Magog?

Revelation 20:8 already tells us who they are--- the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth. Which then tells me that they are living outside of Jerusalem, not in the midst of it instead.

2. How do they grow to a number as the sand of the sea in such an alleged perfect pristine environment?

Who says their numbers continue to grow? Even 1 million ppl, for example, could qualify as a number as the sand of the sea

LOL. Do you really expect us to believe this nonsense? You know you have to try to make it a low enough number that they could actually all fit in the area around Jerusalem. There are about 8 billion people in the world today and it is estimated that there were about 300 million people in the world a thousand years ago. So, you expect us to believe that in a thousand years the population of the world would only be about 1 million people? LOL! Get serious.

The camp of the saints is not Jerusalem, it is the church. It's not talking about a number of people as the sand of the sea all traveling to Jerusalem and surrounding the city. That's ludicrous. Explain the logistics of that. No, Revelation 20 is symbolically describing opposition against the church throughout the world. Jesus will put an end to it by sending fire down on the entire earth when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12).

3. How do they enter your millennium? Where do they come from?

Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, tells us how. And so does Daniel 7:12, IMO.

4. What qualifies them to enter?

You will have to take that up with God and Zechariah 14:16-19 and Daniel 7:12.

Weak answer. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you can't answer a question like that?

Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse relating to historical world empires, so I'm not going to waste any time talking about that. But, why is it that you take Zechariah 14:16-19 literally, but not 2 Peter 3:10-12? Please explain that.

Also, explain how your view lines up with Matthew 24:35-39 where Jesus associates heaven and earth passing away with His second coming and He compares the destruction that will occur at His second coming directly with the destruction that it occurred with the flood in Noah's day when it killed literally all unbelievers.

Explain how your view lines up with 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 where Paul said that Jesus will take vengeance on all of those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel when He comes? Why do you have some who don't know God and don't obey the gopsel surviving His return when Paul gave no such indication at all?

5. What qualifies them to miss the sudden destruction that accompanies Christ's return, from which says, none shall escape?

That passage doesn't say none escape. That passage only says everyone in the beast's armies are the ones that don't escape.

He is talking about 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. That passage does indicate that none escape the sudden destruction that will occur when Jesus returns. And that can be confirmed by reading Peter's account of the same event in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Obviously, not everyone is in the beast's armies since Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled, and that Zechariah 14:12 is likely involving Revelation 19:21. Instead of getting these Scriptures to square, you want to pit them against each other then insist that what is recorded in the NT trumps what is recorded in the OT.

LOL. You are the one pitting them against each other. The NT scriptures are very clear and straightforward and you have to twist them to fit your doctrine. Even Revelation 19 is clear about who will survive His return. In terms of unbelievers, it will be no one. Why do you not take the following as literally as you do Zechariah 14:16-19?

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

As if only the NT is holy writ, the OT isn't. Or that both are holy writ, except the NT is more holy writ than the OT. I do not find either of those options acceptable. Therefore, unlike you in this case, I do not pit the OT against the NT, I try and find a way to get them to agree not contradict.

You are doing a terrible job of it because what you are doing to make them agree is forcing the very clear and straightforward passages from the NT to agree with your interpretations of Zechariah 14:16-19 and Daniel 7:12 by twisting them to fit your doctrine. Zechariah 14 and Daniel 7 are among the most difficult passages in all of scripture to interpret, so to base your doctrine only on passages like those instead of clear, straightforward passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 makes no sense.

6. On what grounds do they become sinless?

LOL. who says they become sinless? As if, per this Premil scenario, sinless people are going to be devoured by God in the end. Therefore, you are misrepresenting Premil and also misrepresenting common sense in general at the same time since you are claiming Premils have those meant in Revelation 20:8 being sinless. That's right, I almost forgot. It's perfectly ok for Amils to misrepresent Premil, though.

You laugh, but you talk about no rebellion occurring during the thousand years, so that's how you came across when you said that. But, then you clarified that you think they want to rebel, but can't because of being kept in line by Jesus and His saints with their rods of iron which contradicts your belief in free will. Your beliefs are contradictory.

7. How can so many so easily change en-masse from being committed followers of Christ to being totally sold-out committed Satanists?

What an argument. Why don't you try answering that argument using Eve before and after the fall in order to do so? Or use that argument using satan and the billions of angels that rebelled with him when he initially fell, to make your argument.

There is no basis for comparing what happened to Eve after she was alive for days to what happens to people after being in the presence of Christ in all His glory for a thousand years. And there's no basis for comparing the situations of humans to angels, either.

 

[Gottservant]

A) Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

B) Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[...]

Stellar observation, brother! You have got me thinking!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

A) Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

B) Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The question is, is the little season recorded in A) meaning the same little season recorded in B)? Because if it is, it would be absurd for any Premil to insist that this does not prove Amil in that case.

What I would like to accomplish in this thread before the OP is eventually ignored altogether and that we are in here debating post trib vs pretrib lol, or whatever, is this. Those who think that A) is the same little season as B), list reasons why it is. Likewise, anyone that thinks they are not the same little season, list reasons why they are not.

Currently, my position is that they are not the same little season in both accounts. And here is at least one reason why.

Per B) when looking what follows, none of the camp of the saints meant, are killed by anyone. Only those coming against the camp of the saints are killed by anyone. In this case, they are killed by God because He devours them with fire. As to the little season per A). Obviously, saints are being killed left and right throughout that little season.

I have more reasons I can come up with besides just this. But for now, this alone is enough reason to conclude they are not the same little season unless the opposition can prove that the camp of saints meant in Revelation 20:7-9, that some of them, maybe even many of them, are being killed throughout B). Obviously, if any of the camp of saints meant in Revelation 20:7-9 are killed and are being killed during B), no way in a million years, in that case, could Revelation 20:7-9 be supporting Premil then.

The multitude "came out of" the Great Tribulation", which lasts 3 1/2 years. There are many views about the timing of the Rapture, but I think it is key that coming out of implies they are in the middle of it ( so neither Pre- Trib or Post-Trub view would support this). Another the main key factor would be the definition of the " last trumpet". I believe this is the 7th Trumpet on Rev. 11:15. Therefore, this happens closer to the end of the GT, but the wrath within the Seven Bowls are released at this time (which suggests 40-75 days). Why do I say this? I believe the Antichrist is allotted 1260 days of power. At the end of his reign, two witnesses are taken up, Jesus show up, at which time the resurrection happens, bowls are released, the world wars against Him (for a short period) and then it's over.
Now the time left after 1260 days to the Millennial Kingdom begins is 75 days. Why?
Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. DAN. 12:12
BLESSED (happy) means it's over and our King has defeated all His foes, rid tye planet if sin and evil and now rules for 1000 years.
So back to the littled season. How long is a season? 3 months. A little one would be less than that.

 

[Davidpt]

The multitude "came out of" the Great Tribulation", which lasts 3 1/2 years. There are many views about the timing of the Rapture, but I think it is key that coming out of implies they are in the middle of it ( so neither Pre- Trib or Post-Trub view would support this). Another the main key factor would be the definition of the " last trumpet". I believe this is the 7th Trumpet on Rev. 11:15. Therefore, this happens closer to the end of the GT, but the wrath within the Seven Bowls are released at this time (which suggests 40-75 days). Why do I say this? I believe the Antichrist is allotted 1260 days of power. At the end of his reign, two witnesses are taken up, Jesus show up, at which time the resurrection happens, bowls are released, the world wars against Him (for a short period) and then it's over.
Now the time left after 1260 days to the Millennial Kingdom begins is 75 days. Why?
Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. DAN. 12:12
BLESSED (happy) means it's over and our King has defeated all His foes, rid tye planet if sin and evil and now rules for 1000 years.
So back to the littled season. How long is a season? 3 months. A little one would be less than that.

First of all, per some of what you said, are you implying Midtrib? That aside since I can't agree with that if this is what you are implying, finally someone else apparently on the same page with me about some of these other things, though.

Per my view it might look like this.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


It is during the time of the end when verse 10 is meaning. Except until the time of the end the words are closed up and sealed in the meantime. Which means it's impossible to understand what is meant here, prior to the beginning of the time of the end. It is absurd that anyone could understand these words while the words are closed up and sealed. Therefore, any interpretations insisting this involves the days of A4E is total bogus nonsense. The reason why is because this would have to mean that the words were no longer closed and sealed prior to the days of A4E. After all, it makes zero sense that this prophecy is being fulfilled while the words are still closed up and sealed rather than after they are no longer closed up and sealed.

No matter how you look at it no way were the words no longer closed up and sealed prior to the beginning of the days of A4E nor during them. The absolute earliest that they can no longer be closed up and sealed would be during the days of Christ and the authors of the NT.

Getting back to verse 12 above. In my view day 1335 is literally meaning the final day of this present age. It is meaning verse 13 when Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days.

The parallel to some of this is in Matthew 24 and would be the following.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Verse 15 is involving verse 21 and that verse 21 parallels Daniel 12:1. And that Daniel 12:1 parallels Daniel 12:12. And that Matthew 24:29 is meaning the remaining days after 1290 days are fulfilled up unto when the 1335th day is fulfilled. Verse 29 involves 45 days(or maybe 75 days?) and is involving the 7 vials of wrath recorded in Revelation 16. And that Matthew 24:30-31 is meaning the 1335th day and that it is meaning when Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days, thus when the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Which would then mean per my view that the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 is involving the 1290 days meant in Daniel 12:11, or at least 1260 days of them anyway. It doesn't matter if literal days are meant or not. What matters is, this 1335 days which include 1290 days, are involving the final days of this age. And that Daniel 12:13, for one, proves it. There are no more days mentioned after verse 12 and the 1335th day. Therefore, it stands to reason that this 1335th day is the end of the days meant in verse 13. Except some are apparently not good at connecting the dots if they disagree. As if it makes sense, since Daniel 12 closes with verse 13, and in verse 12 it mentions a 1335th day, except it is not connected with verse 13. That's only true if one sucks at connecting the dots. Not everyone might suck at connecting the dots, though.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Which means it's impossible to understand what is meant here, prior to the beginning of the time of the end. It is absurd that anyone could understand these words while the words are closed up and sealed.

I believe those verses aren't sealed anymore, since we are in the end times, the last generation and so God is revealing prophetic meanings of Daniel 12, Matt. 24, Revelation, Ezek. Zech., Joel, etc.
I hold to a Mid-Trib view, so obviously any other view would conflict with my interpretations. Just pointed out that even without any Eschatological discernment whatsoever, a literal meaning of a season means 90 days, so a little season is less.
I offered my take ... and most have their own. I don't think two people out there are in harmony with their views. It is funny how some people adamantly insist they have it all figured out.
I would much prefer the Pre-Tribbers were right and me wrong. I'd like to get out-of here soon before the GT.
Just today I heard some person who had a NDE, claimed to go to heaven, see Jesus, visions of nuclear war, named cities nuked and prior to that on either Sept. 23 or 24, 2025 was the time of the Rapture ( during thr Feast of Trumpets). Since the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) would be taken out of the way at that time, it would stand to reason that all hell would break loose on earth. Since the Church is gone and we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, then evil is unrestrained, buttons are pushed- makes sense. But I have some reservations about her view, it contained flaws ( as I perceive them to be).
1. An angel blows the trumpet, not some human on earth during a holiday in Jerusalem.2. She is presenting this secret rapture, then 7 years later, Jesus shows up and the world finally sees Him. Two comings: one for the church and then later in Judgment on Yom Kippur (Sept. 15, 2032). I don 't see it happening that way - but I could be wrong?
I see the Rapture happening at the 7th Trumpet, which is the Second Coming, at which time He descends on clouds and every eye sees Him. One is taken one is left. And I don't see 7 years for the GT, only 3 1/2 years. We'll see.