HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

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Spiritual Israelite

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Literally what I just said...
It didn't seem like it to me. You said "The key word, I guess, in your statement here is 'entire,' but in the text, the word 'until' necessitates the entirety, that the "thousand years" is necessarily expired when the loosing occurs.". You came across as if you thought I did not agree that the thousand years is necessarily expired when the loosing occurs. Otherwise, I don't know why you said that.

Right, so it seems you're saying ~ without realizing it, I guess ~ that there's an intermediate age of some length between this age and the next. And I say the text does not support that.
You are the one calling the thousand years an age, not me. It's part of this temporal age that began when God created the heavens and the earth. Jesus talked about "this age" and "the age to come" in terms of this age being the temporal age during which people get married and die in contrast to the eternal age to come when people will not get married and will not die. I'm not willing to make up any other age than the two ages that Jesus talked about.

<chuckles> I... don't think that's it... <smile>
Clearly, we are not understanding what each other is saying about this to some extent. Not sure how you can disagree with that.
 

PinSeeker

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You came across as if you thought I did not agree that the thousand years is necessarily expired when the loosing occurs. Otherwise, I don't know why you said that.
Because what you have said, that "Satan's little season" ~ which commences when Satan is loosed ~ is within the thousand years, is contrary to that.

You are the one calling the thousand years an age, not me.
Ahhh, yes, I know. <smile>
  • "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" Matthew 12:32).
  • "and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels" (Matthew 13:39).
  • "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age" (Matthew 13:40).
  • "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous" (Matthew 13:49)
  • "As He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?'” (Matthew 24:3)
  • "...teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age (Matthew 28:20).
And I love this doxology from Paul:
  • "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to Whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen" (Galatians 1:3).
It's part of this temporal age that began when God created the heavens and the earth. Jesus talked about "this age" and "the age to come" in terms of this age being the temporal age during which people get married and die in contrast to the eternal age to come when people will not get married and will not die. I'm not willing to make up any other age than the two ages that Jesus talked about.
Okay, fair enough, but... see directly above.

Clearly, we are not understanding what each other is saying about this to some extent. Not sure how you can disagree with that.
Well I don't, but I think there's... more to it than that. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.
 

Davidpt

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He returns, and ends it, yes... really in a sense before it even begins. You will agree that the text says Satan is loosed again, but never actually says he succeeds in deceiving the nations.

IOW, let's just contradict everything John told us in Revelation 20 and what the logical conclusion would be based on what he told us.

First he told us this.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Let's start with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. What does that logically equal? It logically equals exactly what it says.

It might be like someone that has been driving around drunk and getting in all kinds of accidents. Therefore, this person is eventually detained, judged and sentenced to 10 years in prison in order to prevent this person from doing what he was doing that landed him in prison, that being, driving around drunk causing accidents. Obviously, he can't still do that while he is in prison for this 10 years.

But eventually he gets released, which then could mean that he once again goes back to his old ways, his time in prison taught him nothing, he is once again driving drunk causing accidents, except this time around he gets in an accident that ends his life. This analogy is not perfect of course, yet some of it can be applied to satan.

Initially satan is deceiving the nations. Then he is imprisoned for a spell. And in the same way the analogy I used, where his 10 year imprisioment prevented the drunk driver driving around causing accidents, satan's imprisonment prevents him from deceiving the nations while imprisoned. But how can it also prevent him from deceiving the nations when he is loosed from his prison? Where is the logic in that? It was his imprisonment preventing him from doing that. But once he is loosed that means he is free to once again do what he was doing before being imprisoned, deceiving the nations, the fact now there is nothing preventing him from doing that again. The same way there was nothing preventing him from doing that prior to him being imprisoned.

When thinking of it like this, maybe Amil does make better sense than Premil, for all I know? When he is not bound, that period of time would be involving this age. So why wouldn't when he is bound equally be involving this age? And when he is loosed, it equally involving this age? Rather than this entire age, that he is unbound the entire time? I see the logic in Amil in that regard, except Amil can't explain passages post the 2nd coming that require more days post the 2nd coming in order to fulfill. Except Amil has no more days post the 2nd coming to fulfill any of these things, such as Matthew 19:28, for instance.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Then on top of that you want to contradict verse 8 as well by insisting he never manages to deceive the nations. He simply attempts to but never succeeds. Why then are these in verse 8 being devoured by fire from God in heaven in verse 9 unless satan managed to deceive the nations again?

What makes sense per Amil though I realize Amils do not agree, is this. The ones meant in verse 8 are the ones saved during the millennium, then after the millennium satan is loosed and deceives them again, thus they fall away, think 2 Thessalonians 2 here, that that should be coming to mind. And because they betrayed Christ by falling away after the millennium, God then destroys them at the end of satan's little season. Sometimes I think I would make a better Amil than I do a Premil. But I can't see it working out if I ever switched positions. As if any Amil is going to agree that I might be on to something here, thus worthy of investigating further.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Because what you have said, that "Satan's little season" ~ which commences when Satan is loosed ~ is within the thousand years, is contrary to that.
I have never said that. Please show me where you think I said that. I have said several times that I believe he is loosed right after the thousand years ends which is quite different than saying he is loosed within the thousand years.

Ahhh, yes, I know. <smile>
  • "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" Matthew 12:32).
  • "and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels" (Matthew 13:39).
  • "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age" (Matthew 13:40).
  • "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous" (Matthew 13:49)
  • "As He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?'” (Matthew 24:3)
  • "...teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age (Matthew 28:20).
And I love this doxology from Paul:
  • "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to Whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen" (Galatians 1:3).
Not sure what you think you're proving with these references. How does any of that prove that the thousand years is this age and that Satan's little season does not occur within this age?
 

Zao is life

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:rolleyes: Lol... Whatever... <smile>

but the proper English translation of the Greek 'anothen' is 'again.' To translate that to "from the first" seems at best quite cryptic, and I don't know of any versions that translate it any other way than 'again' or 'anew.' Except for the NET and YLT, which... present problems <smile> in various places, in my opinion. But even those versions translate it to 'from above,' which is true, but in pure translation terms is beyond the actual text. At any rate, what version did you quote from?

Grace and peace to you.
So though I gave examples of verses where anothen means 'from the first' and examples of verses where anothen means 'from the top' and examples of verses where anothen means 'from above', you are so blind to scripture that you only see anothen meaning 'again'.

We are not born of the Spirit twice, PinSeeker. We were born once of the flesh - the first and last time we were born of the flesh, and we were born once of the Spirit - the first and last time we will ever be born of the Spirit because being placed in Christ and Christ dwelling in you is the result of the first and last time we were born of the Spirit, and that is how eternal life is given to us and how we received the eternal life that is in Christ.

Though it's also not "wrong", the word 'again' does not as you falsely claim actually express what Jesus said and meant accurately enough. Born anew would indeed be a better word than "again" - especially for those whose native tongue is not English, and an even better translation would be "born anew of the Spirit from the first, the beginning".

But the word "again" isn't "wrong. It's just a word chosen by many translators. Your blindness to scripture shows when you argue that anothen never means 'from the first' or 'from above' or 'from the top", or "from the beginning" in scripture.
 
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PinSeeker

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IOW, let's just contradict everything John told us in Revelation 20 and what the logical conclusion would be based on what he told us.
Well, you can, but I would advise against it. <smile>

This analogy is not perfect of course, yet some of it can be applied to satan.
Maybe, but how much of it can be applied to Satan would probably be... yet another debate... <smile>

...how can it also prevent him from deceiving the nations when he is loosed from his prison?
David, at that point, there's no one left that will be deceived.

...you want to contradict verse 8 as well by insisting he never manages to deceive the nations.
Of course I don't... <smile> And I don't... <smile> The text reads that he "will come out to deceive the nations," not "will deceive the nations." And God says, David, in Isaiah 55, that His Word goes out from His mouth and does not return to Him empty, but it always accomplished that which He purposes, that it always succeeds in the thing for which He sent it. At that point, God will have brought His Israel to completion... during the millennium, the thousand years. So, necessarily, all who would be deceived have already been deceived; there is no new deception that occurs.

He simply attempts...
And briefly at that.

to but never succeeds. Why then are these in verse 8 being devoured by fire from God in heaven in verse 9 unless satan managed to deceive the nations again?
These are the ones already ~ even now, but surely then, too ~ under his influence. those not elect of God, slaves to unrighteousness.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Zao is life

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Mark 4:26 "The kingdom of God is as if a Man should plant a seed in the ground"

And again Luke 17:20-21 "The Kingdom of God does not come by observation, for indeed the kingdom is within you" (from memory)

In other words "the Rapture is within you" "the Rapture happens in a way that you do not know how"
Well every eye will see Him and He will send out His angels to gather His elect and then the dead in Christ will rise first and those who are in Christ who are still alive will be caught up ("raptured") and when He appears it will be as lightning that shines from one end of the heaven to the other - and that's also where His elect will be gathered from - one end of the heaven to the other.

So IMO you are wrong to equate the rapture to the Kingdom of Christ that is within you (what you say about that also implies that we can "grow up to heaven within ourselves", which is not biblical).

But it is an interesting thought about the Kingdom "growing within individuals" who are in Christ (as they are being sanctified by the Spirit) as well as growing in the world. Because the seed that is planted in our hearts is the Word of God.
 

PinSeeker

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So though I gave examples of verses where anothen means 'from the first' and examples of verses where anothen means 'from the top' and examples of verses where anothen means 'from above', you are so blind to scripture that you only see anothen meaning 'again'.
You didn't answer my question. More on that in a moment.

First, though, yes, it is true that identical words can have different meanings in the Bible depending on the context in which they appear, and yes, 'anothen' is one of those. But we cannot take it out of one context and put it into another, which is what you did with, for example, Luke 1:3 and Acts 26:4-5, in which, yes, the word is 'anothen' meaning "from the beginning," as opposed to Galatians 4:9.. where Paul writes of the Christians in Galatia turning back "to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more.(synonymous with 'again'... thus, 'anothen').

Now back to my unanswered question: You said, I presume quoting from some version of the Bible, "'Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born [gennáō] from the first [anothen], he cannot see the kingdom of God. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born [gennáō] from the first [anothen].' -- John 3:3 & 6-7." And I asked what version of the Bible you were quoting from. The Greek 'anothen' is only used in John 3:3 and 3:7 ~ not John 3:6 ~ and it is correctly translated to the English as 'again.' never used in any of those three verses. But aside from that, regarding your own words here in your quote, you say it says, "from the first," and I asked what version you were quoting. You did not answer. At this point, never mind; your silence on that says all that needs to be said.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Zao is life

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IOW, let's just contradict everything John told us in Revelation 20 and what the logical conclusion would be based on what he told us.

First he told us this.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Let's start with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. What does that logically equal? It logically equals exactly what it says.

It might be like someone that has been driving around drunk and getting in all kinds of accidents. Therefore, this person is eventually detained, judged and sentenced to 10 years in prison in order to prevent this person from doing what he was doing that landed him in prison, that being, driving around drunk causing accidents. Obviously, he can't still do that while he is in prison for this 10 years.

But eventually he gets released, which then could mean that he once again goes back to his old ways, his time in prison taught him nothing, he is once again driving drunk causing accidents, except this time around he gets in an accident that ends his life. This analogy is not perfect of course, yet some of it can be applied to satan.

Initially satan is deceiving the nations. Then he is imprisoned for a spell. And in the same way the analogy I used, where his 10 year imprisioment prevented the drunk driver driving around causing accidents, satan's imprisonment prevents him from deceiving the nations while imprisoned. But how can it also prevent him from deceiving the nations when he is loosed from his prison? Where is the logic in that? It was his imprisonment preventing him from doing that. But once he is loosed that means he is free to once again do what he was doing before being imprisoned, deceiving the nations, the fact now there is nothing preventing him from doing that again. The same way there was nothing preventing him from doing that prior to him being imprisoned.

When thinking of it like this, maybe Amil does make better sense than Premil, for all I know? When he is not bound, that period of time would be involving this age. So why wouldn't when he is bound equally be involving this age? And when he is loosed, it equally involving this age? Rather than this entire age, that he is unbound the entire time? I see the logic in Amil in that regard, except Amil can't explain passages post the 2nd coming that require more days post the 2nd coming in order to fulfill. Except Amil has no more days post the 2nd coming to fulfill any of these things, such as Matthew 19:28, for instance.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Then on top of that you want to contradict verse 8 as well by insisting he never manages to deceive the nations. He simply attempts to but never succeeds. Why then are these in verse 8 being devoured by fire from God in heaven in verse 9 unless satan managed to deceive the nations again?

What makes sense per Amil though I realize Amils do not agree, is this. The ones meant in verse 8 are the ones saved during the millennium, then after the millennium satan is loosed and deceives them again, thus they fall away, think 2 Thessalonians 2 here, that that should be coming to mind. And because they betrayed Christ by falling away after the millennium, God then destroys them at the end of satan's little season. Sometimes I think I would make a better Amil than I do a Premil. But I can't see it working out if I ever switched positions. As if any Amil is going to agree that I might be on to something here, thus worthy of investigating further.

It's very easy to understand what Revelation 20:1-3 is saying.

Firstly because it's logical that if a king has an adversary in his kingdom who is causing disruption, killing or harming the king's subjects, deceiving as many as he can, continuously encouraging dissent against the king and continuously calling the king's authority and integrity into question,

then if the king wants to put a stop to it, he would need to either bind the adversary and lock him in a dungeon, rendering the adversary completely unable to cause more harm, or simply destroy the adversary,

but if the king in his wisdom and sovereign will continues to permit the adversary for a season and a time to continue, whether it be in order to separate the king's loyal and faithful subjects from his adversaries or for any other reason, then this choice and decision is within the king's sovereign right.

Secondly it's very easy to understand because Satan only has power to deceive any person, culture or nation to the extent that his words of deception are believed, and its human beings believing his words of deception that give his words (and hence, Satan) that power.

Thirdly it's easy to understand because long before the Revelation was even given, Satan was called "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2).

Fourthly it's easy to understand because Revelation 12:9 calls him "the great dragon (that) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world", and then tells us how he was cast down to earth, and then a warning of woe is issued to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, telling us all how ever since then, he has doubled-down on his efforts because he knows that his time is now limited - and that has put him into a rage.

Fifthly
it's easy to understand that there's no "binding Satan" in terms of his ability to deceive the nations even mentioned in Revelation chapter 12; and besides this, the saints were already warned even before the Revelation was given, to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to "put on the full armor of God" because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31 & Revelation 12:9); 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

It's very, very easy to understand, but the fact that those who do not want to understand equate the destruction of Satan's power over death (through Christ's death and resurrection) with Satan's ability to deceive the nations, and assert that the gospel has bound him,

shows that they do not even realize that when they assert that the power of the light of the gospel has "bound (or "restricted") Satan from deceiving the nations", the flip side of that coin is that if Satan was not "restricted: or "bound" in terms of his ability to deceive the nations, then darkness would somehow have hindered the power of the light of the gospel (which is a blasphemous assertion to make).

There seems to be a desperate need on the part of Amillennialists to protect a theology concocted in the minds of men, which proves over and over again that they belong either in the second or third group of people below (or in both the second and third groups):

By their own admission and theologies, the billions of Christians in the world are divided into two groups regarding the biblical scriptures:-

(a) Those who believe in (and place) the authority of biblical scripture above all the doctrines and theologies of men ("God's Word above all things"); and

(b) Those who do not.

However, there is a third group:

(c) Those who claim to believe in the authority of biblical scripture above all doctrines and theologies of men, and yet fail the test when confronted with a choice between their own doctrines and theologies and what biblical scripture actually teaches.
 
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Zao is life

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You didn't answer my question.
There was no question. Just false statements and assertions, and now there's only evasion of the facts by use of a straw man.

Doubling down on your own private re-invention of the meaning of the word anothen as it is used throughout the New Testament by just doubling down on the same false statements and assertions, is all just gibberish.

Sorry, I can't entertain it any longer.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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What makes sense per Amil though I realize Amils do not agree, is this. The ones meant in verse 8 are the ones saved during the millennium, then after the millennium satan is loosed and deceives them again, thus they fall away, think 2 Thessalonians 2 here, that that should be coming to mind.
Some of them are those who fall away, sure. But, not all of them. It's referring to all unbelievers there. All unbelievers will be destroyed by the fire that comes down from heaven, not just those who fall away (Revelation 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

And because they betrayed Christ by falling away after the millennium, God then destroys them at the end of satan's little season. Sometimes I think I would make a better Amil than I do a Premil.
LOL! Give me a break with your nonsense. You are not qualified at all to speak for Amil. You misrepresent it repeatedly.

But I can't see it working out if I ever switched positions.
No, you can't do that because it would then make you a Catholic or something. That's the ridiculous way you think. You believe what you do because of emotional things and not because of scripture.

As if any Amil is going to agree that I might be on to something here, thus worthy of investigating further.
LOL. Why would any Amil give you any credibility when you have never shown that you have any? Especially when it comes to your many failed attempts to refute Amil? All you do is refute your straw man's arguments, but never what Amils actually believe.