HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[Zao is life]

Is that not what JESUS specifically stated?

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

No. Jesus is not specifically saying that. Nicodemus did not understand what He was saying, and neither do you.

You have specifically corrupted what He is saying by equating it with a "quickening and resurrection from the dead" of "something that was dead".

Is someone born of the Spirit still a created human being, or not?

Created: When YHVH God created [bara] man,

Formed: He formed [yatsar] man of the dust of the ground; and

Breathed: breathed (naphach) into his nostrils the breath (nshamah) of life (chay); and

Became: the man became a living [H1961 haya] soul (nephesh).

And Yhwh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [zoe]; and man became a living [zao] soul.

Only God possesses (owns) life. Only He possesses life IN HIMSELF. The created man became a living soul when the living God breathed the breath of life into him.

Jesus specifically said,

"The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes;
so is everyone who is born [γεννάω gennáō] of the Spirit." -- John 3:8.

"That which is born [gennáō] of the flesh (body) is flesh, and that which is born [gennáō] of the Spirit is spirit." ( John 3:6).

Born [gennao] of the flesh: "And Jacob begat [gennao] Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." -- Matthew 1:16.

Note: Jesus the Messiah did not need to be be "born again". He was born of God from the first, the beginning. He was not gennao (begotten) of a human father: "Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived [gennao] in her is of the Holy Ghost." -- Matthew 1:20.

Gennao can refer to a human life which is conceived, as well as to a human life which is born. Whether conceived or born, what takes place is not a (dead) human life being "regenerated or resurrected or quickened": it's conceived or born from the first, the beginning [anothen]:

Born of the Spirit:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born [gennáō] from the first [anothen], he cannot see the kingdom of God. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born [gennáō] from the first [anothen]." -- John 3:3 & 6-7.

Strongs Greek Dictionary G509 [anothen]:
From above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

G 507 ano:
adverb from 473; upward or on the top:--above, brim, high, up. see GREEK for 473

VERSES WHERE [anothen] MEANS "FROM THE FIRST, THE BEGINNING"

"It seemed good to me also, following all things accurately from the very first [anothen], to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus" -- Luke 1:3

"My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning [anothen], if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee." -- Acts 26:4-5

"But now, after that all of you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn all of you again to the weak and beggarly elements, unto which all of you desire again [anothen - from the beginning] to be in bondage?" -- Galatians 4:9

A VERSE WHERE [anothen] MEANS "FROM THE TOP"

Matthew 27:51 (parallel Mark 15:38):

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top [anothen] to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." -- Matthew 27:51.

A VERSE WHERE [anothen] MEANS "FROM ABOVE"

"He that comes from above [anothen] is above [epano] all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he that comes from heaven is above [epano] all." -- John 3:31.

Strongs Greek G1883 epano:
up above, i.e. over or on (of place, amount, rank, etc.):--above, more than, (up-)on, over.

To be "born again" [gennao] does not mean to be "born twice" - it means to be born anew, from the first, the beginning, and from above. We are born once of the flesh (the natural body), and once of the Spirit.

@David in NJ Ask me to post a list of every single scripture talking about (the) resurrection from the dead for you. But only ask me to do so if you are resolved to read each and every verse to see if any of them are NOT talking about the resurrection of the dead body.

It's a very long list. So if you dare to ask me for the list and I give them all to you, you can take your time.

Then ask me to post and quote every single verse talking about quickening (making alive) for you, including the Greek words used, and including the ones that many falsely assert are referring to the "quickening" of the human soul or spirit, then read them all, comparing all the passages and verses that use the same Greek words with one another and especially with the verses that are clearly talking about the quickening of the dead human body.

and then dare to tell me that the New Testament contradicts itself by talking sometimes about the quickening (making alive again) of the dead body and the resurrection of the dead body - based on the quickening and resurrection of Christ's dead body, but "sometimes" it's talking about the "quickening" (making alive again) of the "dead" human "soul" or the "dead" human "spirit".

 

[Davidpt]

@WPM does not believe scripture. He believes what he makes of scripture, according to his own will and fancy. So it's not surprising that he does not believe in NOSAS. What is also not surprising is the amount of pats on the back he gets from @Spiritual Israelite, LOL.

One reason I have been opposed to Amil is not because I don't want Amils to win the argument, but is mainly because I despise Catholicism. I do not even remotely dislike Catholics, I just don't like their religion. I don't know how many Catholics there might be worldwide, maybe billions for all I know. And that pretty much everyone of them are Amil though not all Amils are Catholic. Then I'm thinking, billions of ppl that pray to departed saints, that perform ungodly rituals, so on and so on, then compare with someone such as Justin Martyr who was actually beheaded for his belief in Christ, and that was someone who believed the millennium follows the 2nd coming, that he was deceived the entire time and that the ones doing all these ungodly rituals, Catholics in this case, are the ones interpreting the millennium correctly this entire time. Sometimes I question why I even believe in a trinity since that is a major Catholic doctrine as well?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One reason I have been opposed to Amil is not because I don't want Amils to win the argument, but is mainly because I despise Catholicism. I do not even remotely dislike Catholics, I just don't like their religion. I don't know how many Catholics there might be worldwide, maybe billions for all I know. And that pretty much everyone of them are Amil though not all Amils are Catholic.

This is a ridiculous reason not to accept Amil. Cults like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians are all Premils, but that doesn't stop you from being a Premil.

Then I'm thinking, billions of ppl that pray to departed saints, that perform ungodly rituals, so on and so on, then compare with someone such as Justin Martyer who was actually beheaded for his belief in Christ, and that was someone who believed the millennium follows the 2nd coming, that he was deceived the entire time and that the ones doing all these ungodly rituals, Catholics in this case, are the ones interpreting the millennium correctly this entire time. Sometimes I question why I even believe in a trinity since that is a major Catholic doctrine as well?

Good grief. Catholics also believe that Jesus died and rose again from the dead, so does that make you question that as well? Your Premil belief is clearly based on your emotions and not on scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, I already fully realize that Amils do not take everyone saved in the millennium to each live and reign the entire thousand years that Amil insist the millennium is symbolizing.

Fair enough.

Thus the reason for the hypothetical scenario at the end of my post you are addressing.

Right, so thus my... well, not "dismissal" of it, but yeah, we're not going to see eye to eye, which you and I both know.

I don't see anything you submitted above that makes sense out of this hypothetical scenario I provided.

Right, there's a definite disconnect between the two.

Simply explain how someone can be saved in the last literal minute of the millennium and that this equals them having reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So even this question is... well, loaded, really. There's a false assumption built into it, specifically because of your understanding on Revelation 20:4b, "(t)hey came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

It's kind of like this (except that this analogy falls short because two things are actually both true):

In what way did they live and reign with Christ within a literal minute, per this scenario?

Hmmm, well, David's (Psalm 90) and Peter's (2 Peter 3) context is a little different in those passages, but the idea is the same... "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." In other words, it doesn't matter if itis the first few seconds of the millennium or the last few seconds or anywhere in between, it's all that's needed for any one believer, and any part of it large or small is equivalent to the whole, especially to God, Who is outside of time, in what we might call the eternal now. The construct of time that we exist within is part of His creation; He is the potentate of time.

What did they accomplish during this literal minute?

All that God intended for them to accomplish... <smile> ...which may be very, very little for any individual who is at some point in his/her life justified by God... declared righteous in the Lord... and therefore imputed His righteousness, as it were. So quantity of good works matters not; what really matters is the changed heart., the new spirit the person has.

...you already admit that no one is saved during satan's little season.

"Admit"... <chuckles>... But yes, "Satan's little season" begins at the close of God's millennium, which, again, how ever long in earth years, is the full amount of our time in which God completes the buiding of His Israel.

Which apparently means that you must think the day of the Lord begins with satan's little season, rather than at the end of his little season. Assuming his little season is meaning in this age.

That's the very issue, your assumption(s) ~ this one included ~ that "his little season is meaning in this age." And what you say here also presents at least somewhat of a question in my mind about your... well, presumption... regarding "this age"...

2 Peter 3:9-10... This text makes it crystal clear, at least to me anyway, that God continues what He is doing in verse 9 all the way up until the DOTL comes like a thief in the night.

Me, too...

I just find it bizarre that the beginning of satan's little season is when the DOTL comes as a thief in the night. As if satan's little season, where he goes out to deceive the nations, is involving 2 Peter 3:10 the entire time.

To be honest, David, I find this thought itself to be a bit bizarre... for at least a couple of different reasons. To try to speak to you where you are in your thought on this passage:

1. I would at the very least equivocate 2 Peter 3:9 with this age... "these last days," as the writer of Hebrews (1:2) puts it, the time in which God (as I said above) is building His Israel, the time in which each member of God's elect is being brought, one by one, into His Israel, and He is thus bringing it to completion.​

​

2. Specifically to what you say here, I would say that "Satan's little season" is actually contained in verse ten (the DOTL) ... Satan will be loosed and thinking it is his day (more on that in just a moment) and will try to deceive the nations again, but will be quickly and finally defeated... by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself in His return.​

One little side-point, but very relevant, I think: When Jesus read from Isaiah 61 at the beginning of His public ministry, He said (quoting Isaiah), "(the Father) has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Now, was Jesus saying that the Lord's favor was only going to last one calendar year? Well... no... <smile>​

Okay so continuing... Satan will actually think it is his "day"... and it will even look like that for a short time to us (or at least to those who are still alive) ...that Christianity is dead and the world has actually won. It will be absolutely terrible. But the actual amount of time elapsed in all this is very, very short... even very unexpected and sudden, which is the unmistakable point Peter is making in that passage with his analogy, "like a thief in the night." Which is the same point Jesus is making in Matthew and Luke when He speaks of the coming of the Son of Man being as in the days of Noah and as in the days of Lot in Matthew 24 and Luke 17.​

3. And finally, again I would submit that in this "day of the Lord" in 2 Peter 3:10 contains "Satan's little season," and actually will bring that little season to a close, and that the season itself will be very, very short-lived, so much so as to be... insignificant... not significant to any degree, either in time or scope. Jesus will quickly come... <smile> You know, maybe this is really a repeating of point two... <smile>​

Obviously then, 2 Peter 3:9-10 alone debunks Amil in light of if satan's little season were meaning in this age...

Well, maybe, but no "Amill" (I hope) would say that "Satan's little season" is meaning in this age. It is not.

...that means no one can be saved during his little season the fact it is impossible to live and reign with Christ a thousand years if this era is already in the past once satan's little season begins.

Yes, I would agree this is... if anyone actually holds it <smile> ...a ridiculous thought.

"Amils" ...can't have it both ways.

Don't think anyone is trying to do that... <smile>

They can't insist that the DOTL does not come until the end of satan's little season, which would mean people can still be saved during satan's little season per this scenario...

Hmmm, okay, but... see above. But even to what you say here, it would not necessarily mean people can still be saved in that season.

...that according 2 Peter 3:9-10. Which then contradicts that it is impossible to live and reign with Christ a thousand years if that era is in the past when they are presumably saved. And that the first resurrection is connected with salvation.

Mmmmm... ugh. <smile> See above.

No matter what Amil does here, they are going to contradict something in the process.

(Spiritual Israelite's favorite GIF... <smile>)

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[WPM]

One reason I have been opposed to Amil is not because I don't want Amils to win the argument, but is mainly because I despise Catholicism. I do not even remotely dislike Catholics, I just don't like their religion. I don't know how many Catholics there might be worldwide, maybe billions for all I know. And that pretty much everyone of them are Amil though not all Amils are Catholic. Then I'm thinking, billions of ppl that pray to departed saints, that perform ungodly rituals, so on and so on, then compare with someone such as Justin Martyr who was actually beheaded for his belief in Christ, and that was someone who believed the millennium follows the 2nd coming, that he was deceived the entire time and that the ones doing all these ungodly rituals, Catholics in this case, are the ones interpreting the millennium correctly this entire time. Sometimes I question why I even believe in a trinity since that is a major Catholic doctrine as well?

This says it all! This is why it is pointless debating with you. There's no objective biblical reason why you oppose Amillennialism. It is simply to "despise Catholicism." It is all out in the open now. No wonder it is impossible to biblically reason with you.

I will be copy in this post and holding onto it, and posting it when I need to.

 

[PinSeeker]

You have specifically corrupted what He is saying by equating it with a "quickening and resurrection from the dead" of "something that was dead".

Of Christians, Paul says "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" (Ephesians 2:1-3)... so, "corrupted?" Surely not; perish the thought.

Born of the Spirit:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born [gennáō] from the first [anothen], he cannot see the kingdom of God. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born [gennáō] from the first [anothen]." -- John 3:3 & 6-7.

Strongs Greek Dictionary G509 [anothen]:
From above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

The Greek word John uses there, Zao, translated to Greek from Aramaic, in both John 3:6 and 3:8, is 'pneuma,' not 'anothen.' Too, it is a distinction without a difference, really... "of the Spirit" and "from above," not "from the beginning," unless in saying that he/she means "of the Most High, the One Who was from the beginning, self-existing, of eternity past.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, maybe, but no "Amill" (I hope) would say that "Satan's little season" is meaning in this age. It is not.

How do you define "this age"? Jesus spoke about "this age" and "the age to come" and differentiated between the two in the sense that in this age people get married and they die and in the age to come people will not get married and will not die (Luke 20:34-36). So, to me, "this age" is this temporal age that we're living in now before the eternal age to come of the new heavens and new earth is ushered in. So, with that definition of "this age", I do believe Satan's little season will occur during this age just before Jesus comes at the end of this age. Christ's return will bring an end to Satan's little season.

(Spiritual Israelite's favorite GIF... <smile>)

Ha. No. I like this one better when disagreeing with someone....

 

[PinSeeker]

How do you define "this age"? Jesus spoke about "this age" and "the age to come" and differentiated between the two in the sense that in this age people get married and they die and in the age to come people will not get married and will not die (Luke 20:34-36). So,

Hmmm... So, this is interesting conversation and shouldn't be any kind of argument between us... <smile> I would submit that what Jesus is saying there is not even particularly about marriage, but that all personal relationships in eternity will be even far beyond the deepest loving relationship between a husband and wife in the institution of marriage now.

And this may neither here nor there, but what about a man and his wife who both enter into the New Heaven and New Earth? Will they no longer be married? Nothing Jesus says there addresses that question, and His silence on that suggests otherwise... God has joined them together and they have become one flesh (Matthew 19, Ephesians 5)... and that they will remain married for eternity.

to me, "this age" is this temporal age that we're living in now before the eternal age to come of the new heavens and new earth is ushered in.

Right, I agree, but I do not believe there will be "an age of... limbo" of any length of time between this age and the next. You don't either, from what I understand ~ there probably are some Christians out there (they may or may not be amillennial believers) who believe in a sort of intermediate period between this age and the next, and that's okay... ~ but anyway, read on...

So, with that definition of "this age", I do believe Satan's little season will occur during this age just before Jesus comes at the end of this age...

...you seem here to state, even if you don't mean to, that there is some sort of state of "limbo" of some length between this age and the next (eternity). Even if not, fair enough, I do not believe Satan's little season will occur during this age:

Again, I say that "this age" is the time in which, in Paul's words in Romans 11, the partial hardening upon Israel is removed and the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in, and thus all Israel saved. And when that happens, when Israel is complete, God's millennium ~ this age ~ will have been brought to a close, and the age to come, eternity, will have begun. This is what will prompt Jesus's return.

I submit that the break from this age to the next, the age to come, eternity, is not from our perspective but from God's. For a short time, it will seem as if this age is continuing, and all has been lost. And this will be when Satan is loosed; I say that Satan's loosing, the final battle with and defeat of Satan, the fire coming down from heaven (Jesus, in His return) and consuming them, and the throwing of the devil into the lake of fire and sulfur all occurs at the beginning of the age to come, eternity. Then will be the final Judgment, and then will be the ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth...

Christ's return will bring an end to Satan's little season.

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

Sometimes I question why I even believe in a trinity since that is a major Catholic doctrine as well?

Catholics did not create the Trinity doctrine. They did create Amill though.

 

[PinSeeker]

Catholics did not create the Trinity doctrine. They did create Amill though.

Don't think David was suggesting Catholics created the Trinity doctrine... And with regard to the millennium of Revelation 20, amillennialism long precedes Catholicism. There is written evidence that amillennialism was around in the first century, which puts it at most within 30 to 40 years of the writing of the New Testament.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Gottservant]

Interesting thought. But you'd need to provide scriptural support before I could consider it for too long.

Mark 4:26 "The kingdom of God is as if a Man should plant a seed in the ground"

And again Luke 17:20-21 "The Kingdom of God does not come by observation, for indeed the kingdom is within you" (from memory)

In other words "the Rapture is within you" "the Rapture happens in a way that you do not know how"

 

[Davidpt]

That's the very issue, your assumption(s) ~ this one included ~ that "his little season is meaning in this age." And what you say here also presents at least somewhat of a question in my mind about your... well, presumption... regarding "this age"...

Have I been assuming some wrong things about you this entire time? Compared to @Spiritual Israelite, even though you and I might not agree about everything, you at least appear to understand where I am coming from and why, where @Spiritual Israelite typically doesn't a lot of the time. Thus why he constantly charges me with misrepresenting Amil when all I'm doing is seeing whether Amil can be debunked or not.

Therefore, why in the world are you having me saying that I myself believe satan's little season happens in this age when no Premil I know of believes that to begin with, including me? Can you not see how I'm arguing here? I'm not arguing Premil, I'm arguing that if Amil is the correct position instead, pretty much every Amil I'm aware of places satan's little season before the 2nd coming. Therefore, logically making it something fulfilled in this age, per this scenario. Thus why I mentioned this age in regards to satan's little season, in light of if Amil is the correct position.

 

[David in NJ]

One reason I have been opposed to Amil is not because I don't want Amils to win the argument, but is mainly because I despise Catholicism. I do not even remotely dislike Catholics, I just don't like their religion. I don't know how many Catholics there might be worldwide, maybe billions for all I know. And that pretty much everyone of them are Amil though not all Amils are Catholic. Then I'm thinking, billions of ppl that pray to departed saints, that perform ungodly rituals, so on and so on, then compare with someone such as Justin Martyr who was actually beheaded for his belief in Christ, and that was someone who believed the millennium follows the 2nd coming, that he was deceived the entire time and that the ones doing all these ungodly rituals, Catholics in this case, are the ones interpreting the millennium correctly this entire time. Sometimes I question why I even believe in a trinity since that is a major Catholic doctrine as well?

the LORD rescued me from RCC = 40 years ago

amil is a placebo pill for those who lack understanding