Income Taxes

[tim_from_pa]

The American tax system has to be the most complicated in the world, as evidenced by the fact we now need computer programs to figure them out.My wife is the financial expert of this household (as that was her major) and I am amazed at the piles and piles of papers we have to file them. Even with a program, she worked for DAYS doing our taxes!This is why I want Ron Paul for president. Like any good Libertarian (even though he is under the Republican ticket now), he wants to abolish the IRS. Why people do not want to vote for him in an instant is way beyond my comprehension. I guess people actually like financial self-inflicted pain or something. I believe I am at odds with the majority of the populace out there. I just don't understand. It would be so simple otherwise taxing according to the constitution instead of an unconstitutional income tax.

 

[Lunar]

(tim_from_pa)
I guess people actually like financial self-inflicted pain or something.
No, they don't like it, but they understand that it's necessary for something that's a lot more important than being inconvenienced every once in a while. The income tax generates revenue that goes towards important services that help people. To say that we should abolish it just because it's a hassle to fill out tax forms seems very selfish.(tim_from_pa)
It would be so simple otherwise taxing according to the constitution instead of an unconstitutional income tax.
The income tax is constitutional. Sixteenth amendment.

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

IRS do not even get me started on those leeches. I do not know about anyone else here but take for example property taxes, how many here pay them? Now you pay tax on the property when you buy it then have to pay tax the whole time you own it "DOUBLE STANDARD TAX" I call it. Then you work like a dog all week and they take money from you that is not theirs to start with it makes me ill every time I think about. You know its suppose to be "no taxiation without representation" but sadly its turned to "the rich get richer and the poor get even poorer" Constitutional for who? For what? Nothing constitutional about it. You know they are not Robin Hood you took from the poor and gave to the rich, they are taking and taking from your pocket and what are you getting in return? Freedom? Yeah right. Freedom has a cost look at Iraq.

 

[For Life]

I'm with you Tim. I don't understand how people think that our huge government could possibly provide services for the people that we couldn't do better and more efficiently at a smaller private level. Also I don't have a problem with Govt. taxing a business on their profits but to tax the income of the people who don't own businesses is ludicrous. Forcing Americans to pay into social programs is Un-American. Is the majority really for socialism? I don't get it.

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

Well stick around they have built the shaft we are just waiting on the elevator.

 

[Lunar]

(For Life;36167)
I'm with you Tim. I don't understand how people think that our huge government could possibly provide services for the people that we couldn't do better and more efficiently at a smaller private level.
Businesses are completely sociopathic. Without government regulation, they will never act in the interest of the citizen.Let's take education. A lot of conservatives I hear advocating the dissolution of the Department of Education and leaving education up to private corporations. Now, what do you think will happen if they do that? The schools which can provide a good education are going to charge a premium, of course. Children from underprivileged backgrounds aren't going to be able to afford to go to them. They'll wind up going to the worst schools available - if they can afford to go at all. And I think you can see how a situation like this will destroy social mobility. Poor children aren't going to be able to afford the education they need to be successful in the job market, so they'll end up taking minimum-wage jobs, remain poor, and then their children will suffer the same fate. Children from rich families, meanwhile, will get sent to the best schools and receive a great education, will get high-paying jobs because of it, and then their children will go off to expensive schools and repeat the cycle. In short, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.Let's look at health care. I hear a lot of conservatives that are strongly opposed to socialized health care. They think private businesses can provide health care more effectively. Well, first I'd point them to Europe where socialized health care is extremely successful and provides much better results across the board than the United States in terms of lifespans, infant mortality rates, etc. But secondly, you just need to look at what's going on in the mind of a private health care corporation. What's in their best interest if you come to them sick? If they can provide a solution right then and there, should they? Of course not - that's only one payment for them. They're going to want to just make you a little bit better so that you keep coming back again and again. They are not going to provide the most efficient solution to your problems, especially when you aren't a doctor and have to take their word that they're treating you effectively. They're going to provide the solution that makes them the most money.These are just two examples - in two of the most important instances - of how businesses will not magically solve all of our problems.(For Life)
Also I don't have a problem with Govt. taxing a business on their profits but to tax the income of the people who don't own businesses is ludicrous.
Why is it ludicrous? People benefit from the services the government provide. It's a social contract, not a free pass. You, I presume, have driven on roads before. This a service provided to you, by the government, that you benefit from, and the money for it doesn't come from nowhere. I understand the aversion to seeing some of your money taken away, but you can't look at the issue in a vacuum and say that it's just theft. You are where you are today largely in part due to what the country has given you. Now, if you think you want to get rid of all taxes, eliminate all government services, and leave everything up to private corporations, well, you already have my opinion on that. I don't think it's going to work out.(For Life)
Forcing Americans to pay into social programs is Un-American. Is the majority really for socialism? I don't get it.
Is anarchism American? Because that's essentially what you're advocating. A government without taxes isn't a government; it simply can't exist. What I see you proposing is the near-complete dissolution of the government. Just taxing businesses isn't gonna cut it.(Two)
Then you work like a dog all week and they take money from you that is not theirs to start with it makes me ill every time I think about.
You are making this sound like you get nothing out of taxation, like it's pure highway robbery. This is obviously not true. Just stop and think of all the things you use on a regular basis that are funded by your tax money.(Two)
Constitutional for who? For what? Nothing constitutional about it.
No, this is quite objectively constitutional, because you can look in our Constitution and see the 16th amendment which permits precisely this.(Two)
Freedom has a cost look at Iraq.
Iraq had nothing to do with our freedom, since Saddam was not connected to Al-Qaeda in any way.

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

Boy they got you brain washed don't they. It is highway robbery in the broadest sense of the word. You want to see Dracula in a gray flannel suit just look toward Washington. What do we get on regular basis other than the shaft, nothing. It amazes me how countries like Germany can afford health care for all their citizens and a country has big as the US cannot do it, why? Tell you why. Almighty dollar thats why. I love the US would not want to be anywhere else but don't pretend like its perfect here cause it ain't. If our fore fathers could see what has gone on the last 200 years they would roll over in their graves its that bad. Is a new President going to change things? In a word NO. Things will never change has long as the almighty dollar has a hold on the upper echelon in Washington. We I am afraid we are on a downward spiral we will never recover from.And I do not see how anyone could think that taxes are fair. I would settle for a one cent Federal Sales Tax to get rid of the IRS. Things will never chnage simply because people have fallen into this false sense of security that tells them everything is ok when its not. I have been half way around the world and back and have served proudly in our US Armed Forces and there are places a lot worse than the US we got it good here some respects but bad in others. Want to see bad go to a third world country for a while then tell me what its like....

 

[Lunar]

(Two;36177)
Boy they got you brain washed don't they.
You should probably try and break the habit of prefacing a paragraph with this. It's awfully patronizing.(Two)
What do we get on regular basis other than the shaft, nothing.
Okay, let's abolish these taxes then, and see how fun things are will be when public transportation and road maintenance completely disappear, along with public education, social security, federally funded research that saves lives, the military and our entire defense system, etc. But hey, those are "nothing but the shaft," right? You take far too much for granted.(Two)
It amazes me how countries like Germany can afford health care for all their citizens and a country has big as the US cannot do it, why? Tell you why. Almighty dollar thats why.
It's because Germany has socialized health care. This is an argument in favor of my position, not yours.As for the rest of your post, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the issue of taxation, so I don't really know what to say.

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

You talk about social security there won't be any in 20 years. Funded research for what?
It's because Germany has socialized health care. This is an argument in favor of my position, not yours.
Negative. Germany don't suck people dry for health care.
public transportation and road maintenance completely disappear,
You seen the infrastructure in this country? Apparently not. Wheres it going? Not to infrastructure thats for sure.
Okay, let's abolish these taxes then,
Smartest thing you have said in the whole post.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Looks like I opened a can of worms here today. Well, actually, the 16th amendment was added to justify the income taxes, and any amendment can be added to support a lame-brained idea and then call it "constitutional".I am referring to the constitution as intended by our founding fathers. They never intended for the citizen to be taxed in the manner we are. As a matter of fact, this very thing was the documented Indictment in the Declaration of Independence against the oppressive King that we broke away from. And I quote it:For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent..... Read that someday. The descriptions of the IRS sounds like a bureaucratic equivalent of the King.Any person out there today who thinks this is "normal" or such a tax is "needed" has more than a few screws loose and need a major brain mechanic.

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent.....Read that someday. The descriptions of the IRS sounds like a bureaucratic equivalent of the King.
Amen Tim, amen................
They never intended for the citizen to be taxed in the manner we are.
Another amen...

 

[horsecamp]

Jesus paid taxes and the government he paid them to was worse than ours.i think we will always pay taxes . it would be better than if THEY made them more fair to pay. Perhaps a flat tax of some kind.Many of Ron Pauls ideas i DO like . Some I don't.Social security . its been robbed from for all sorts of stuff .i think perhaps there could be a better way now for our younger people.To invest for them selves one that others can't get there hands into.I sure would like to see a end to legalized murder of unborn children.i also think homosexuality is not good for any nation so why should it have any adavatages ? especialy legal ones.

 

[For Life]

Why is it ludicrous? People benefit from the services the government provide. It's a social contract, not a free pass. You, I presume, have driven on roads before. This a service provided to you, by the government, that you benefit from, and the money for it doesn't come from nowhere. I understand the aversion to seeing some of your money taken away, but you can't look at the issue in a vacuum and say that it's just theft. You are where you are today largely in part due to what the country has given you. Now, if you think you want to get rid of all taxes, eliminate all government services, and leave everything up to private corporations, well, you already have my opinion on that. I don't think it's going to work out.
My main point is that the states, through taxes on gasoline, can pay to pave roads. We don't need the IRS to tax everyone to pay for roads. The feds only pave the Interstate anyway. I'm sure we could all agree that the average person doesn't require the Interstate in order to survive.
Is anarchism American? Because that's essentially what you're advocating. A government without taxes isn't a government; it simply can't exist. What I see you proposing is the near-complete dissolution of the government. Just taxing businesses isn't gonna cut it.
I do propose limiting the federal government, downsizing. I don't think it would dissolve itself, although I think we would all be better off if it did. Aside from some potholes on I-80 we would have to fix ourselves, who would even miss it??

 

[Lunar]

(tim_from_pa;36205)
Looks like I opened a can of worms here today. Well, actually, the 16th amendment was added to justify the income taxes, and any amendment can be added to support a lame-brained idea and then call it "constitutional". I am referring to the constitution as intended by our founding fathers. They never intended for the citizen to be taxed in the manner we are.
Are you going to criticize the woman's right to vote on the same grounds? The founding fathers, infallible as they clearly were, only thought all men were created equal, after all.If we are not going to generate tax revenue from an income tax, then what do you propose we get tax revenue from? What is the replacement? The only replacement I hear being offered is a flat nationwide sales tax, which is horribly regressive and will beat the working class into the ground.(tim_from_pa)
Any person out there today who thinks this is "normal" or such a tax is "needed" has more than a few screws loose and need a major brain mechanic.
Well, thanks for that insulting ad hominem attack. I've half a mind not to come back to this forum if this is how we're treating each other.

 

[tim_from_pa]

(Lunar;36230)
Are you going to criticize the woman's right to vote on the same grounds? The founding fathers, infallible as they clearly were, only thought all men were created equal, after all.If we are not going to generate tax revenue from an income tax, then what do you propose we get tax revenue from? What is the replacement? The only replacement I hear being offered is a flat nationwide sales tax, which is horribly regressive and will beat the working class into the ground.Well, thanks for that insulting ad hominem attack. I've half a mind not to come back to this forum if this is how we're treating each other.
Well, the founding fathers did not intend the federal government to be in most of the stuff it has its nose in today. It was to basically protect the nation, and a military. Therefore it does not need as much revenue except those who want to keep it because they are either employed by the government, or they want free hand-outs. Most of this stuff belongs in the private sector.I've heard all kinds of things regarding for example universal health care as the "Christian" thing to do. Well, anything that is of a worldly system is not Christian no matter how noble it sounds. This belongs in the private sector as well. For example, what about the church doing this? Jesus never expected Caesar to do that, but his people. The fact that most "Christians" give a measly 1-2% instead of tithing is it any wonder the nation is in this state of disarray (They think they are going to die and go where again?). And that goes for other major religions. I don't know of one that does not propose giving or helping their fellow man barring suicide bombers maybe. Frankly, the founding fathers would be disgusted that their children are the way they are today in the United States. I'm starting to believe many people are not their children----- they certainly do not think like them. That's why I am a Ron Paul supporter. He thinks like they did----- put him in a wig and colonial clothing and I think he would even look the part as well.

As for this forum, I guess it all depends on where you are coming from. I feel very comfortable here, and my beliefs align very well with the administrators. On other forums I actually got kicked off as a "troll". You'd probably would be comfortable over in a forum like the ones I got kicked off of. Truth is, forums have their bias and each one has its click. And such a slant is not necessarily bad. Sometimes these biased types are correct, but like any medicine, is sometimes hard to take.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Aside from some potholes on I-80 we would have to fix ourselves, who would even miss it?
I-80 runs just north of me. But I see this is a long road over several states. No potholes here in Pennsylvania!

 

[Lunar]

(tim_from_pa;36254)
Well, the founding fathers did not intend the federal government to be in most of the stuff it has its nose in today. It was to basically protect the nation, and a military. Therefore it does not need as much revenue except those who want to keep it because they are either employed by the government, or they want free hand-outs. Most of this stuff belongs in the private sector.
I've already given two big examples of how and why this just doesn't work. Privately run education and health care will invariably beat the lower class into the ground. It's easy for those who are well-off already, those who have little to fear from big business, to say that private corporations can handle their needs, because private corporations can handle your needs - if you're rich. The poor, however, are just going to get the short end of the stick.And I don't think you can say that what worked in the 18th and 19th centuries will work now. America was a slave-owning society then; there was an obvious difference in social and class dynamics.(tim_from_pa)
I've heard all kinds of things regarding for example universal health care as the "Christian" thing to do. Well, anything that is of a worldly system is not Christian no matter how noble it sounds.
By this logic, we can't have government at all. That's a "worldly system."(tim_from_pa)
The fact that most "Christians" give a measly 1-2% instead of tithing is it any wonder the nation is in this state of disarray (They think they are going to die and go where again?)
Short of condemning a large population of people to hell, I agree with you. I wish that well-off Christians would focus more on charitable efforts. On the other hand, there are some who can't even pay for their own needs.(tim_from_pa)
And that goes for other major religions. I don't know of one that does not propose giving or helping their fellow man barring suicide bombers maybe. Frankly, the founding fathers would be disgusted that their children are the way they are today in the United States.
I'm confused by the connection you just made - you think that we ought to focus on helping others, but then say the founding fathers would be disgusted with us because the government helps others too much?Are you suggesting that health care could be financed entirely by private charity? That's an extremely implausible setup.(tim_from_pa)
As for this forum, I guess it all depends on where you are coming from. I feel very comfortable here, and my beliefs align very well with the administrators. On other forums I actually got kicked off as a "troll". You'd probably would be comfortable over in a forum like the ones I got kicked off of. Truth is, forums have their bias and each one has its click. And such a slant is not necessarily bad. Sometimes these biased types are correct, but like any medicine, is sometimes hard to take.
I don't understand...are you telling me that my options are to either suffer verbal abuse or find a forum where everyone agrees with me instead of you? Speaking respectfully to one another isn't something that should be unique to any particular forum, and I'd especially like to think that a Christian forum isn't the exception. Respect is not something that is given only to people who agree with you. Having respect for those with differing opinions is the only thing that allows us to have actual exchanges of ideas, instead of just nodding our heads with those who agree with us and shouting down those who don't. Calling people insane for their political views is just plain uncivil.

 

[tim_from_pa]

I don't understand...are you telling me that my options are to either suffer verbal abuse or find a forum where everyone agrees with me instead of you? Speaking respectfully to one another isn't something that should be unique to any particular forum, and I'd especially like to think that a Christian forum isn't the exception. Respect is not something that is given only to people who agree with you. Having respect for those with differing opinions is the only thing that allows us to have actual exchanges of ideas, instead of just nodding our heads with those who agree with us and shouting down those who don't. Calling people insane for their political views is just plain uncivil.
What I was saying in a round-about way was that you have to expect some flack as I experienced it as well other places.As for political views, its a free country. I believe you have every right to believe what you do even if I disagree and maybe think its nuts. That's the beauty of this nation as it was founded on. But trust me..... if things continue on the present course, this will not be the case and certain opinions will not be tolerated. But from your end, I would not worry. You seem to merge nicely with the upcoming order of things. I will be the one persecuted ultimately. Revelations is coming no matter how long one sounds the alarm. Geeez.... I hate to see a good thing going, but nothing lasts forever, and the bible says that.

 

[damoncrowe]

Lunar, Lunar, Lunar.....You are obviously a pragmatist. Do what works whether it's right in God's eyes or not. The federal government gets plenty of revenue from corporate taxes (which are Constitutional) to do all of their few functions. One must completely ignore Article 10 in the Bill of Rights to make such a socialistic stand. One must also ignore the Biblical function of government to make that stand. The 16th Amendment is un-contitutional on several levels. First, it is a direct tax that is unapportioned (Art. 1 Sec. 2). Secondly, the Amendment was never legally ratified. Thirdly, the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that the 16th Amendment gives Congress no new taxing power, and further has consistently ruled that an individual's wages are not considerred income. Now Christ made a statement about taxes to Peter, when he asked him, "from whom do the kings of the earth exact tribute from, their sons or from strangers?" Peter answered correctly, "strangers." Christ then said, "then the sons are free." The statement he made here was that kings don't tax their people, but the strangers. We have it backwards here in the US. We the People are taxed while we provide welfare to Pagan nations around the world and to the lazy sloths in this country, while also giving free healthcare to illegal immigrants! What is going on that a Christian would make the unBiblical arguments that you are making? It has been noted above that the revenue that is collected through the income tax is unneccessary and rightly so. 100 % of the revenue from the income tax goes to interest on "money" borrowed from the private bankers at the Federal Reserve. Before you make too big an argument for the income tax, you really should research it.

 

[Lunar]

(damoncrowe;36326)
Lunar, Lunar, Lunar.....You are obviously a pragmatist. Do what works whether it's right in God's eyes or not.
I'm a pragmatist insofar as God is a pragmatist. God doesn't ask us to do things that "don't work."(damoncrowe)
The federal government gets plenty of revenue from corporate taxes (which are Constitutional) to do all of their few functions. One must completely ignore Article 10 in the Bill of Rights to make such a socialistic stand.
It's odd how you've conflated what God wants and what the founding fathers wanted to be completely identical. The founding fathers were not some sort of divine messengers elected by God to establish the perfect society. They were men, mortal men who set up a system with its high points and its low points.(damoncrowe)
One must also ignore the Biblical function of government to make that stand.
The biblical function of government is what, exactly? The bible is not a political work.(damoncrowe)
The 16th Amendment is un-contitutional on several levels. First, it is a direct tax that is unapportioned (Art. 1 Sec. 2). Secondly, the Amendment was never legally ratified. Thirdly, the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that the 16th Amendment gives Congress no new taxing power, and further has consistently ruled that an individual's wages are not considerred income.
Um, of course amendments aren't dictated by the original constitution. That's why they had to amend them. The question is whether the original constitution is always right. Clearly, it's not - we can see that easily by looking and seeing that women weren't originally allowed to vote, among a number of other things. So no, I don't think the original constitution is immune to alteration and, since they provided the framework for amendments, neither did the founding fathers. They understood changes would have to be made, because it was a system made by men, not God, and as such was imperfect. They weren't so arrogant as to presume that their ideals were perfect and should remain forever.(damoncrowe)
The statement he made here was that kings don't tax their people, but the strangers. We have it backwards here in the US.
You missed the point of the passage. He is making a statement about religion, not government. The point is that God is the analogous "king" of the temple, and because Jesus is his son, he ought to be exempt from taxes, because kings are supposed to tax the general people but not their sons. He decides to pay the tax only to avoid confrontation, because he knows that they will not acknowledge him as the son of God. Jesus is in no way denying the right of government to tax its people; if anything, his support of it is implicit in the analogy between the government and the temple.(damoncrowe)
We the People are taxed while we provide welfare to Pagan nations around the world and to the lazy sloths in this country, while also giving free healthcare to illegal immigrants! What is going on that a Christian would make the unBiblical arguments that you are making?
To be honest, I was absolutely appalled reading this. First, for the implication that people who aren't Christian don't deserve sympathy or support, even as they are suffering through horrible conditions. Second, for implying that people who are out of a job in this country are automatically lazy - what a cynical and presumptuous view to take! It is not always someone's fault if they can't find a job - often it is the fault of capitalism itself, and we are nothing better than elitists if we look contentedly at how well we've done and pat ourselves on the backs because we have jobs and assume that they must be lazy if they can't do the same. Well, that's easy for someone who didn't come from a poor background to say. You haven't even attempted to see things from their point of view. All you've done is put the "right" where the money is.No, the elitism and utter contempt for the poor and unfortunate that your post demonstrates are absolutely the single most un-Christian sentiments I can think of. They run directly counter to everything Jesus taught.But tim_from_pa, maybe you did get one thing right. Maybe I do need to find another forum. Because nothing is more trying on my faith, and nothing makes me sadder, than to see a beautiful message like the one of Jesus Christ twisted to support socioeconomic elitism. The statements like the ones I've heard here can only come from those who are financially secure, from those who lack empathy or understanding for people who weren't born into a life as fortunate as theirs. You just assume that they ought to be make it in the free market like you did, never for a moment considering what it would have been like if you started from nothing. Well, I'll tell you one thing - Jesus isn't giving you any credit for being financially successful. Jesus doesn't care about that. Jesus cares about putting the last first, and this is exactly the opposite of what you have built your beliefs around. How you could arrive there, while claiming to be Christian, I may never know.