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Instructed to “Flee,” why stage in Judea?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by guysmith, May 28, 2008.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well as I saqid Jeff nothing personal I just do not believe in this way of interpting scripture you have absoultly no basis on which to assume vthe 1000 years is not literal I prefer to let the Bible interpt itself rather than make assumptions to make it fit a way of interptation by men God says its a 1000 years so I believe him. And Liz as far as the temple it is a future temple in the millieium You are assuming he is talking animal sacrafice when in fact Christ was the ultimate sacrafice, I believe this will be symbolic to remember forever that Christ died for our sins and became the final sacrafice for us.
     
  2. lizz7711

    lizz7711 New Member

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    And Liz as far as the temple it is a future temple in the millieium You are assuming he is talking animal sacrafice when in fact Christ was the ultimate sacrafice, I believe this will be symbolic to remember forever that Christ died for our sins and became the final sacrafice for us.
    Hi Kriss,Well, without taking the time to read the whole thing right now, here are two excerpts as examples of why I don't think it is in any way "symbolic" to represent Christ:Ezek.42:13"...where the priests who approach the Lord shall eat the most holy offerings. There they shall put the most holy offerings--the grain offering, the sin offering,a nd the guilt offering--for the place is holy."Ezek.43:18-27 Read it, but here are a couple lines:"On the day when it is erected for offering burnt offerings upon it and for throwing blood against it, you hsall give to the Levitical priests of the family of Zadok, who draw near to me to minister to me, declares the Lord God, a bull from teh herd for a sin offering.And you shall take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar...." It goes on and on about more animal sacrifices.You mentioned taking God literally...well, in this whole group of passages about the new temple, it must be taken literally as there are just too many references to the old system of animal sacrifice, with NO mention of them being spiritual sacrifices or mention of the ONE WHO ATONES FOR ALL SIN, JESUS. Plus, in the new Jerusalem there will not even be a temple as God says in REvelation.This cannot be explained away or disregarded, so i'm honestly left with no other conclusion but that that was meant to be the way the 2nd temple was constructed before Christ. The other alternative is that these chapters are misplaced in the book of ezekiel--they do not naturally flow in content from chapters 38 and 39.
     
  3. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    Well as I saqid Jeff nothing personal I just do not believe in this way of interpting scripture you have absoultly no basis on which to assume vthe 1000 years is not literal I prefer to let the Bible interpt itself rather than make assumptions to make it fit a way of interptation by men God says its a 1000 years so I believe him.
    HiI do have a basis, in fact more than 1, that suggests it is not literal.Thats why im entertaining the idea.You have 1 place that mentions 1000 years..and thats in rev, a book signified, full of symbols and pictures.Peter, in 2pet 3, had the perfect opportunity to suggest a millenial reign with Christ by our side, but fails to mention it.Instead he gets them looking for the day of God, in which the heavens and the earth are dissolved..and they enter in to the place where righteousness dwells. This clearly takes place after the GWT (and mill) in Rev.Shouldnt have Peter said something like....But we look to the day of God, in which we shall reign with Christ on this earth 1000years, and then the heavens will be dissolved and we shall enter the home of righteousness?
    10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
    If Peter is right, then there will be no earth for the millenium, at Christs coming.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Hi Kriss,Well, without taking the time to read the whole thing right now, here are two excerpts as examples of why I don't think it is in any way "symbolic" to represent Christ:Ezek.42:13"...where the priests who approach the Lord shall eat the most holy offerings. There they shall put the most holy offerings--the grain offering, the sin offering,a nd the guilt offering--for the place is holy."Ezek.43:18-27 Read it, but here are a couple lines:"On the day when it is erected for offering burnt offerings upon it and for throwing blood against it, you hsall give to the Levitical priests of the family of Zadok, who draw near to me to minister to me, declares the Lord God, a bull from teh herd for a sin offering.And you shall take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar...." It goes on and on about more animal sacrifices.You mentioned taking God literally...well, in this whole group of passages about the new temple, it must be taken literally as there are just too many references to the old system of animal sacrifice, with NO mention of them being spiritual sacrifices or mention of the ONE WHO ATONES FOR ALL SIN, JESUS. Plus, in the new Jerusalem there will not even be a temple as God says in REvelation.This cannot be explained away or disregarded, so i'm honestly left with no other conclusion but that that was meant to be the way the 2nd temple was constructed before Christ. The other alternative is that these chapters are misplaced in the book of ezekiel--they do not naturally flow in content from chapters 38 and 39.
    There are no accidents in Gods Word and of course there is no way we can no for sure about this but as i have learned over many years of study that there are so many types in scripture this Temple plan could be both a plan for the second temple and a type for a future Temple and thats why its placed here. If so the fact that part of it is about what was necessary in the second temple doesnt mean it would be required in the third As Christ has fulfilled these Laws.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    HiI do have a basis, in fact more than 1, that suggests it is not literal.Thats why im entertaining the idea.You have 1 place that mentions 1000 years..and thats in rev, a book signified, full of symbols and pictures.Peter, in 2pet 3, had the perfect opportunity to suggest a millenial reign with Christ by our side, but fails to mention it.Instead he gets them looking for the day of God, in which the heavens and the earth are dissolved..and they enter in to the place where righteousness dwells. This clearly takes place after the GWT (and mill) in Rev.Shouldnt have Peter said something like....But we look to the day of God, in which we shall reign with Christ on this earth 1000years, and then the heavens will be dissolved and we shall enter the home of righteousness?If Peter is right, then there will be no earth for the millenium, at Christs coming.
    I think reading into Peter what he didnt say as proof is a little ify to say the least God clearly says there is a 1000 years (mill) and then goes on to tell us that after this Satan will be loosed again for yet a little while. And then comes the white throne Judgement. And then the New heavens and New earthNow the fact he tells us these events will take place seems pretty obvious what he is telling us. Now for you to say different because 2 Peter didnt lay it out in detail the way you thought he should have. Sorry that just doesnt seem like proof to me.
     
  6. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (jeffweeder;51607)
    HiI do have a basis, in fact more than 1, that suggests it is not literal.Thats why im entertaining the idea.You have 1 place that mentions 1000 years..and thats in rev, a book signified, full of symbols and pictures.Peter, in 2pet 3, had the perfect opportunity to suggest a millenial reign with Christ by our side, but fails to mention it.Instead he gets them looking for the day of God, in which the heavens and the earth are dissolved..and they enter in to the place where righteousness dwells. This clearly takes place after the GWT (and mill) in Rev.Shouldnt have Peter said something like....But we look to the day of God, in which we shall reign with Christ on this earth 1000years, and then the heavens will be dissolved and we shall enter the home of righteousness?If Peter is right, then there will be no earth for the millenium, at Christs coming.
    I think reading into Peter what he didnt say as proof is a little ify to say the least God clearly says there is a 1000 years (mill) and then goes on to tell us that after this Satan will be loosed again for yet a little while. And then comes the white throne Judgement. And then the New heavens and New earthNow the fact he tells us these events will take place seems pretty obvious what he is telling us.Now for you to say different because 2 Peter didnt lay it out in detail the way you thought he should have.Sorry that just doesnt seem like proof to me.Jeff, Kriss is correct. If you look at II Peter 3:8, and look at the genealogy of Adam...Adam's seedline, (Genesis 5) the sixth days people (Genesis 1:26-28) and the rest of the mankind never lived on Earth for a single Day. In fact it obviously died less than a single Day.
     
  7. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    Hi Kriss /superjag.I dont think i am reading anything into it.Peter very clearly connects the destruction of the heavens and the earth with the second coming---(like Noah, but reserved for fire) ---the church was looking to these things,according to peter.Jesus said the same thing----Heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will not, but of that day no-one knows---but the coming of the son of man will be just like the days of noahWhen the son of man comes in his glory with the Angels he will seperate the sheep from the goats- sheep go to home of righteousness---goats go to the lake prepared for the devil and his Angels2thess 1 sees Christ coming, in which the gospel rejecters will suffer eternal damnation--while the Church marvel on that very same day.Job says that on the day of ressurection (christs coming)--the heavens will be no more.This is why Peter is looking to the new heaven and new earth-because when Christ comes again ,its all over for the day of grace.The lord is not slow in coming, but is patient, not wanting any to perish ,but all to come to repentance.But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." What is the purpose of the millenium, but to be priests of God and to reign on the earth.But if the earth is destroyed at his coming and the heavens are no more, how can it be a literal 1000 years on the earth after his coming?REV 5, shows the slain lamb, who purchased men for God from every nation by his blood, and has made then to be a kingdom of priests and they shall reign on the earth.When you were born again, the second death lost its power over you, and happy are those that are saved--him who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.He who partakes of this first ressurection has nothing to fear about the second death--Christ has rendered it powerless.God bless
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (jeffweeder;51671)
    Hi Kriss /superjag.I dont think i am reading anything into it.Peter very clearly connects the destruction of the heavens and the earth with the second coming---(like Noah, but reserved for fire) ---the church was looking to these things,according to peter.Jesus said the same thing----Heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will not, but of that day no-one knows---but the coming of the son of man will be just like the days of noahWhen the son of man comes in his glory with the Angels he will seperate the sheep from the goats- sheep go to home of righteousness---goats go to the lake prepared for the devil and his Angels2thess 1 sees Christ coming, in which the gospel rejecters will suffer eternal damnation--while the Church marvel on that very same day.Job says that on the day of ressurection (christs coming)--the heavens will be no more.This is why Peter is looking to the new heaven and new earth-because when Christ comes again ,its all over for the day of grace.The lord is not slow in coming, but is patient, not wanting any to perish ,but all to come to repentance.But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." What is the purpose of the millenium, but to be priests of God and to reign on the earth.But if the earth is destroyed at his coming and the heavens are no more, how can it be a literal 1000 years on the earth after his coming?REV 5, shows the slain lamb, who purchased men for God from every nation by his blood, and has made then to be a kingdom of priests and they shall reign on the earth.When you were born again, the second death lost its power over you, and happy are those that are saved--him who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.He who partakes of this first ressurection has nothing to fear about the second death--Christ has rendered it powerless.God bless
    The planet Earth is not going to be destroyed. Just like the first Earth Age (Jeremiah 4:22-27) this second Earth Age will also be destroyed.II Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.The Melinneum Reign is 1000 years (1 Day to God) It comes at the seventh trumpet (I Corinthians 15:52, I Thessalonians 4:16) as flesh and blood (our human body) can not enter Heaven. (I Corinthians 15:50) and the spiritual body (I Corinthians 15:44) will be in the Mellineum Reign.I will say that the Mellineum Reign is in between the second Earth Age (flesh age) and the third and FINAL Earth Age. (Revelation 20:1-10) The third and FINAL Earth Age is going to be perfect and no more evil. Of course it won't exist until Revelation 20:14 is finish as it is in the White Throne Judgement more known as Judgement Day (Revelation 20:11-12)The former Age shall not be remember anymore. (Isaiah 65:17, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33) The "new Earth and Heaven" (II Peter 3:13) is that final Earth Age as God will create it. (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1)
     
  9. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    The "new Earth and Heaven" (II Peter 3:13) is that final Earth Age as God will create it. (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1)
    Hi superjagI dont think that this rock has anything to do with our final resting place. I dont think God renews the old on this occasion, but all things are made new, and the old will not be remembered.And John saw a GWT, and the one who sits on it...from which heaven and earth fled from his presence--and no place was found for them anymore.We go from mortal to immortal on the day of God, and so does our dwelling place---in the fathers house. No place is found for our old fleshy dwelling----no eye has seen, nor any mind imagined, what God has in store for those that love him.Jesus said he went away to prepare a place for us, and when it is ready it shall descend from heaven.
     
  10. guysmith

    guysmith New Member

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    Jeffweeder,You stated:peter, in 2pet 3, had the perfect opportunity to suggest a millenial reign with Christ by our side, but fails to mention it.Instead he gets them looking for the day of God, in which the heavens and the earth are dissolved..and they enter in to the place where righteousness dwells. This clearly takes place after the GWT (and mill) in Rev.My response: Are you saying the "THE DAY OF THE LORD," where Christ comes as a "THIEF IN THE NIGHT," will take place after the GWT judgement?2 Peter 3: 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    II Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."That means one week is 7,000 years, and we are coming to the Sabbath of that week very shortly, which the common name for the next thousand years is the "Millennium age". II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."This means that you can count on our Heavenly Father concerning His promises. God has much patience concerning His children. It isn't God's will that any soul should perish. God did not even intend for Satan to perish, as stated in Ezekiel 28, but that doesn't mean God will not bring about the perishing of souls; for it is up to the soul to choose. That is what our free will is all about. II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.""A thief in the night" is an figure of speech that means that Christ shall come at an unexpected time. If you have no knowledge of Jewish figure of speech you will not get this verse. And Jump to a wrong conclusion. One day with the Lord as 1000years to us(his beloved) another Jewish figure of speechIf one day with the Lord is 1000 years and his day starts at his second coming it Ends when there is a New heaven and a new Earth So the fact Peter is refering to the End of the Day rather than the beginning does not prove that its not literal. This is but another one of those verse's along with some time lines in Rev. that can not be fully understood without getting the Mystery that was unveiled by Peter here When scripture says be not ignorant of a fact it is an important thing we are understand here. Peter is teaching us these things. That were not well understood before. So taking this as it was written without making assumptions a Day with God is a 1000 years. Its clearly no different than me saying to you "Ill be destroying my house tomarrow night"can you conclude from that statement there will not be a tomarrow morning??
     
  12. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    II Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."That means one week is 7,000 years, and we are coming to the Sabbath of that week very shortly, which the common name for the next thousand years is the "Millennium age". II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."This means that you can count on our Heavenly Father concerning His promises. God has much patience concerning His children. It isn't God's will that any soul should perish. God did not even intend for Satan to perish, as stated in Ezekiel 28, but that doesn't mean God will not bring about the perishing of souls; for it is up to the soul to choose. That is what our free will is all about. II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.""A thief in the night" is an figure of speech that means that Christ shall come at an unexpected time. If you have no knowledge of Jewish figure of speech you will not get this verse. And Jump to a wrong conclusion. One day with the Lord as 1000years to us(his beloved) another Jewish figure of speechIf one day with the Lord is 1000 years and his day starts at his second coming it Ends when there is a New heaven and a new Earth So the fact Peter is refering to the End of the Day rather than the beginning does not prove that its not literal. This is but another one of those verse's along with some time lins in Rev. that can not be fully understood without getting the Mystery that was unveiled by Peter here When scripture says be not ignorant of a fact it is an important thing we are understand here. Pter is teaching us these things. That were not well understood before. So taking this as it was written without making assumptions a Day with God is a 1000 years. Its clearly no different than me saying to you "Ill be destroying my house tomarrow night"can you conclude from that statement there will not be a tomarrow morning??
    Lovely post Kriss. [​IMG] Has so much Truth in it.
     
  13. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    Hi Kriss---hope im not annoying you too much, dont mean to.I read your post before you edited it, and just want you all to know that i have no other motive than to rightly understand what the apostles were telling us--I guess we all feel that we are sincerely trying to that.I dont belong to any particular denomination , i pretty much have been a loner-So my understanding is my own.Im not set in concrete yet, there are things i dont fully understand, and have found that certain beliefs about certain doctrines can cloud our understanding of the whole picture.One thing i do know is that the apostles were unified and in agreement on these things---
    Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

    If one day with the Lord is 1000 years and his day starts at his second coming it Ends when there is a New heaven and a new Earth So the fact Peter is refering to the End of the Day rather than the beginning does not prove that its not literal
    Peters ref to the 1000 years was that he is not slow in coming....as some count slowness,...-it refers to that time it took for him to come a second time, not the period after he comes.When Christ comes again, who does he deal with first?Does he gather us for a 1000 year reign, then deal with the wicked after?or does he deal with the wicked first, leaving the righteous to inherit the kingdom he has gone to prepare?matt 1341 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. matt 1349 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (GWT)If this is what is going to happen, then who will be in the millenium?We are the only ones left it seems.ACTS 1730 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Your not bothering me Jeff I dont mind if someone listens with an open mind you do not have to decide to agree thats your choice. But what Im telling you is not from any denomination teaching its from years of study. I used to see it more your way but it left to many things out to much scripture you had to strech too far or assume I wanted the answers so I searched and studied till I found them I know most people do not agree that a thousand years is as a Day but the more you know the more you see it is the Hidden Key to the timing of Rev, as well as other time lines even if you do not agree now put it the shelf of your mind rather than just dismiss it. It will fit later. I changed my post because I was afraid it would take us off topic So condensed it down to the subject at hand.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Now for documentation Bible commentary --results from the Talmud Jewish figure of Speech concerning One day as a thoudand yearsA common saying among the Jews, founded on the same passage, (Mynv Pla hb "qh) (lv wmwy) , "the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years" this phrase should be thought to refer, as it is by some, to the day of judgment, and be expressive of the duration of that: it is certain that the Jews interpreted days of millenniums, and reckoned millenniums by days, and used this phrase in confirmation of it. Thus they say (F1), ``in the time to come, which is in the last days, on the sixth day, which is the sixth millennium, when the Messiah comes, for the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.'' And a little after, ``"the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man". This is in the time of the Messiah which is in the sixth day.'' And elsewhere (F2,) ``the sixth degree is called the sixth day, the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years. And in that day the King Messiah shall come, and it shall be called the feast of gathering, for the holy blessed God will gather in it the captivity of his people.'' So they call the sabbath, or seventh day, the seventh millennium, and interpret( F3) ``"the song for the sabbath day", (Psalms 92:1) title, for the seventh millennium, for one day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.'' To which agrees the tradition of Elias, which runs thus (F4) ``it is the tradition of the house of Elias, that the world shall be six thousand years, two thousand years void (of the law), two thousand years the law, and two thousand years the days of the Messiah;'' for they suppose that the six days of the creation were expressive of the six thousand years in which the world will stand; and that the seventh day prefigures the last millennium, in which will be the day of judgment, and the world to come; for ``the six days of the creation (they say ) is a sign or intimation of these things: on the sixth day man was created; and on the seventh his work was finished; so the kings of the nations of the world (continue) five millenniums, answering to the five days, in which were created the fowls, and the creeping things of the waters, and other things; and the enjoyment of their kingdom is a little in the sixth, answerable to the creation of the beasts, and living creatures created at this time in the beginning of it; and the kingdom of the house of David is in the sixth millennium,answerable to the creation of man, who knew his Creator, and ruled over them all; and in the end of that millennium will be the day of judgment, answerable to man, who was judged in the end of it; and the seventh is the sabbath, and it is the beginning of the world to come.''
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    And from Jewish EncyclopeadiaJewish Encyclopedia 1904 volume viii page 593. Shows how that even the enemies of Christ and His church know more than the average believer of today.Millennium: The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also "chiliasm," designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a peroid of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3("And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish"); and in ii Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, (etc. etc.) a distinction is made between avlm hba and ymvth hmshych, although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the peroid of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations. end part 1..............................part II...There are various views regarding the duration of this kingdom,, and there is considerable confusion in traditional literature on this point, one and the same opinion being often quoted as held by different authorities. According to the two baraitot in Sanh. 99a, the Messianic kingdom is to last for 40, or 70, or 365, or 400, or even for 7,000 years. In the oinion of others its period is to equal the time from the creation of the world, or else from Noah, to the "present" day. Similar statements, often merely ascribed to other authors, are found in Yalk. Sanh. quotes Abaye and and old baraita, which is found also in Ab Zarah, to the effect that the Messianic peroid comprises two of the six milleniums of the world, while R Ketina and a baraita make the interesting statement that the 6,000 years of the world will be concluded by the seventh thousand of the Messianic kingdom. In the passage in Yalkut already quoted, this same view is ascribed to two tannaim of the second century. Both ot these chronologies are based on the calculation found in PS xc 4 (" For a thousand years in thy sight "), a comparison of which with the account of Creation formed the basis for the 6,000 years of the duration of the world, while the Sabbath corresponded to the seventh thousand, that of the Messiah. The calculation of 6,000 or 7,000 years is found according to Lagarde , as early as the Greek translators of the Pentateuch, whom he places about 280 B.C. and is given also in Enoch xxxiii. The idea of the Messianic interregnum was later incorporated in this form in Rev (ch. xx). When Jesus has conquered the serpent, representing the hostile anit-Christian world, the martyrs of the faith will be raised from the dead and will rule with him for 1,000 years as a band of kingly priests. This peroid is to be followed by the Last Judgment and the creation of a new heaven and a new earth. The concept of the Messianic kingdom, which is here described merely as a reign of peace, is elaborated more fully in the eschatological descriptions of apocalyptic literature (as in Papias), in the Epistle of Barnabas, and in the writings of Justin, Barnabas follows the Jewish theory that the world is to exist unchanged for 6,000 years, and that at the beginning of the Sabbatical or seventh millennium the son of God will appear, although, unlike Papias, he regards this event as purely spiritual. The view of Justin concerning the Messianic kingdom is nationalistic in coloring, being influenced, according to Hamburger, by the insurrection of Bar Kokba. After the middle of the second century of the common era these ideas fell into abeyance, until the Montanists arose in Asia Minor (c. 160-220) and revived the ancient hopes, declaring, however, that thir city of Pepuza was to be the site of the future Jerusalem and the center of the millennial kingdom. In the Greek Church chiliasm was displaced entirely by Origen's Neoplatonic mysticism, and was kept alive only in the Oriental branches of that communion.
     
  17. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Hi Kriss---hope im not annoying you too much, dont mean to.I read your post before you edited it, and just want you all to know that i have no other motive than to rightly understand what the apostles were telling us--I guess we all feel that we are sincerely trying to that.I dont belong to any particular denomination , i pretty much have been a loner-So my understanding is my own.Im not set in concrete yet, there are things i dont fully understand, and have found that certain beliefs about certain doctrines can cloud our understanding of the whole picture.One thing i do know is that the apostles were unified and in agreement on these things---Peters ref to the 1000 years was that he is not slow in coming....as some count slowness,...-it refers to that time it took for him to come a second time, not the period after he comes.When Christ comes again, who does he deal with first?Does he gather us for a 1000 year reign, then deal with the wicked after?or does he deal with the wicked first, leaving the righteous to inherit the kingdom he has gone to prepare?matt 1341 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. matt 1349 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (GWT)If this is what is going to happen, then who will be in the millenium?We are the only ones left it seems.ACTS 1730 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
    Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Matthew 24:40 - Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.I John 3:12 - Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.The wicked shall be taken by Satan. As the lineage of Cain will be with Satan before Christ comes back.
     
  18. guysmith

    guysmith New Member

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    Kriss,You stated: If one day with the Lord is 1000 years and his day starts at his second coming it Ends when there is a New heaven and a new Earth My response: If you mean the New Heaven and New Earth happens at the end of the millennium, I have to disagree.John states: Rev 21: 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." The timing of this verse can be determined by the catchphrases He will wipe every tear from their eyes and There will be no more death. Isaiah 25:8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.1 Corinthians 15:54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.So, when does God wipe away every tear and when does He swallow up death in victory, at the beginning or the end of the millennium? The answer determines when the “new heaven and new earth” begins and when the New Jerusalem will descend.This would be a good New Topic.In Yehoshua,Guy Smithhttp://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Matthew 24:40 - Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.I John 3:12 - Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.The wicked shall be taken by Satan. As the lineage of Cain will be with Satan before Christ comes back.
    Good post Jag
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Kriss,You stated: If one day with the Lord is 1000 years and his day starts at his second coming it Ends when there is a New heaven and a new Earth My response: If you mean the New Heaven and New Earth happens at the end of the millennium, I have to disagree.John states: Rev 21: 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." The timing of this verse can be determined by the catchphrases He will wipe every tear from their eyes and There will be no more death. Isaiah 25:8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.1 Corinthians 15:54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.So, when does God wipe away every tear and when does He swallow up death in victory, at the beginning or the end of the millennium? The answer determines when the “new heaven and new earth” begins and when the New Jerusalem will descend.This would be a good New Topic.In Yehoshua,Guy Smithhttp://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000
    Guy you are leaving out all the things that happen during the Millieum The New Heaven and Earth can not occur before the End of the millieum. In the New heaven and New earth There is no more sin.No more tears ect.This is after the Millieum because both Satan and Hell are destroyed.You combning verse about the beginning and Ending as a single event They are not, there is a begining of the Day and an End of the Day. (We can start a New thread on this if you like) We are told that during the Millieum Satan will be losed again for a short time. He is still here there is still sin the millieum is time of teaching for those who are deserving and not burning in Hell. Then they are tested again thats why Satan is losed for a little while Then comes the White Throne Judgement Where all are Judged Then comes the New Heaven and New earth. And all things you said above. The Lords Day is 1000 years Long. Starting on the Day of his coming and Ending with destroying (melting the Elements) of the Earth. Christ will rule on earth during the millieum, and the first resurrected will reighn and rule with him. However he does not End this Age (earth untill the End of the Millieum.
     
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