intelligent design vs creationism

[aspen]

unfortunately River, you are simply discribing the debate style - it can be employed to any conversationwhenever you find yourself to be 100% convinced of your own position. Evolution is just the flavor of the moment.....

 

[River Jordan]

unfortunately River, you are simply discribing the debate style - it can be employed to any conversationwhenever you find yourself to be 100% convinced of your own position. Evolution is just the flavor of the moment.....

Not really. I have lots of conversations with people who hold to different views on all sorts of things. It's only with fundamentalists that I consistently see this pattern of behavior.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

(n the other hand - if creation is being stretched it would appear to be evolving......it could just be creation in motion - just our perspective. I think our view of God works this way - we see God as three, but He is one - i think it is due to our perspective and inability to classify Him. Could be the same idea with creation

You mentioned Creation being stretched ...

Sort of along that line of thinking ..... Years ago I read 7 books written on Albert Einstein ... the man and his physics ... (that's a lot of reading)

He speculated such things as the whole universe , including us , could possibly only be 1/5 the size it appears to us

He speculated that time and space are bent .... maybe even in a circle .... from our viewpoint the future is ahead of us .... but it may curve around to being right behind us .... and if we could step one millimeter backwards in time we would be stepping into the future.

My head hurts

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Arnie,

Nothing you say will sway river and those like her. They are slaves to humanism. They put scientists on a pedestal. The very people they idolize think believers are delusional however.

River will ask us how we can go against nearly all trained scientists without ever thinking these same people are atheists and believe that Christians are indeed delusional.

It's fascinating to watch. If it wasn't so sad.

 

[River Jordan]

Humanism? Atheism? Why are you bringing those things up in a discussion between two Christians?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Use your context clues.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Humanism? Atheism? Why are you bringing those things up in a discussion between two Christians?

With all respect River Jordan , it is Humanism that is the underlying motive

You yourself may not be a Humanist , but that is beside the point.

Humanism is all about man , humanism holds mankind on the highest pedestal , and (some) scientists , and (some) wealthy people hold themselves as being the very highest in the structure of mankind.

On one hand it may appear harmless , and indeed a select few people in the world have enabled humanity to leap forward in many accomplishments

Problem is they (Humanists) have kicked God off the pinnacle of the pedestal

Not a problem for the Humanist , because they do not believe there is a God , they believe in human ability

However if there is a God , they are in big trouble.

Definition:
Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking, and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over established doctrine or faith

By default Atheists are also Humanists.

By default (according to Jesus) , the majority are humanists , and Christianity will be the minority (ie: the narrow road with few on it)

The Christian who believes in evolution is not necessarily a Humanist , but they are traveling the intellectual highway of the humanist

When forks in the road appear , caution is advised.

Best wishes





.

 

[River Jordan]

Let's look at what you said...

Nothing you say will sway river and those like her. They are slaves to humanism. They put scientists on a pedestal. The very people they idolize think believers are delusional however.

First of all, if you're talking about evolution and creationism, then I can most certainly be swayed. In fact, I would love to be the person who conclusively overturns the unifying paradigm of the earth and life sciences.

I have no idea what you mean by "slaves to humanism". That only makes sense as an intentional personal insult. Is that what you were going for?

And I guess that in your world, recognizing that me and my fellow scientists generally know what we're doing is "idolizing" them and "putting them on a pedestal"? If you take your car to a mechanic, are you idolizing him? If you call tech support to help with a software problem are you idolizing the person who helps you?

River will ask us how we can go against nearly all trained scientists without ever thinking these same people are atheists and believe that Christians are indeed delusional.

Again, the vast majority of "evolutionists" are theists. Atheists only make up ~2% of the population.

It's fascinating to watch. If it wasn't so sad.

What's sad is to see the sort of ridiculous things you apparently have to tell yourself to maintain your narrow worldview.

With all respect River Jordan , it is Humanism that is the underlying motive

Behind what?

Humanism is all about man , humanism holds mankind on the highest pedestal , and (some) scientists , and (some) wealthy people hold themselves as being the very highest in the structure of mankind.

And there are scientists like myself, Francis Collins, and Ken Miller who are Christians. So what?

On one hand it may appear harmless , and indeed a select few people in the world have enabled humanity to leap forward in many accomplishments

Problem is they (Humanists) have kicked God off the pinnacle of the pedestal

Not a problem for the Humanist , because they do not believe there is a God , they believe in human ability

However if there is a God , they are in big trouble.

That's great, but since no one here is a humanist, it's not really clear why the subject was even brought up in the first place.

 

[aspen]

Jesuits are humanists and they believe in God. All higher education is steeped in humanism - it is the belief that humans can reach their highest potential by increasing their knowledge of the world around them. Humanism plus secularism is the problem you are speaking about, Arnie. Surprisingly however, is ability of secular humanists to accurately recognize the limits of being human. Not that I am a big Star Trek fan, but the show during the 80s was practically a polemic for humanism, AND it consistently showcased human failures. Thankfully, the more education a person receives, the more likely we are to be aware of what we do not know. It is only those academics who have stopped learning that became haughty and arrogant - and believe me, I have seen a whole lot of them in my day.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Let's look at what you said...


First of all, if you're talking about evolution and creationism, then I can most certainly be swayed. In fact, I would love to be the person who conclusively overturns the unifying paradigm of the earth and life sciences.

I have no idea what you mean by "slaves to humanism". That only makes sense as an intentional personal insult. Is that what you were going for?

And I guess that in your world, recognizing that me and my fellow scientists generally know what we're doing is "idolizing" them and "putting them on a pedestal"? If you take your car to a mechanic, are you idolizing him? If you call tech support to help with a software problem are you idolizing the person who helps you?


Again, the vast majority of "evolutionists" are theists. Atheists only make up ~2% of the population.


What's sad is to see the sort of ridiculous things you apparently have to tell yourself to maintain your narrow worldview.


Behind what?


And there are scientists like myself, Francis Collins, and Ken Miller who are Christians. So what?


That's great, but since no one here is a humanist, it's not really clear why the subject was even brought up in the first place.

the bible explains that you are a servant (slave) to whom you obey. i am a slave to God because I believe His word. you make science the ultimate authority therefore you serve it. no insult intended unless the truth insults which i guess is possible. if my mechanic says ford did not make my mustang and that it just assembled itself over 4 billion years then i get a new mechanic. in other words nice strawman.

are you suggesting that only 2% of scientists are atheists, because that was clearly my point. nice second strawman. changes over time within organisms once again is not the issue here. third strawman.

 

[aspen]

Sorry but science has uncovered a lot of truth, and the Bible contains a lot of horror stories - pointing out these facts without trying to justify them is being honest, not unfaithful. Denying reality for Jesus is not part of the Great Commission.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

What is reality? There are physicists who are right now trying to prove that we actually don't exist. I have spoken with them.

What horror stories are in the bible? Actually, define horror story first.

 

[aspen]

What is reality? There are physicists who are right now trying to prove that we actually don't exist. I have spoken with them.
What horror stories are in the bible? Actually, define horror story first.

Jug - not sure how you can ask that question - have you not read the Bible? Try 1st Kings for starters....cannibalism, a bald prophet with an insecurity problem that leads to murder....this should be striking a bell for you.

Yeah, I disagree with the idea that reality is an illusion, but I am certainly not threatened by people who like to explore the idea.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

So once again we come to the million dollar question. What part of the bible do you accept? Only those parts which make you comfortable? How do you know which to believe?

 

[River Jordan]

the bible explains that you are a servant (slave) to whom you obey.

Sure, but why do you think I "obey" scientists? Is it merely by recognizing them as experts in their respective fields of study?

you make science the ultimate authority therefore you serve it.

Do you believe God creates mountains as scripture says? If so, does that mean you deny that volcanoes form mountains?

if my mechanic says ford did not make my mustang and that it just assembled itself over 4 billion years then i get a new mechanic. in other words nice strawman.

You claimed that I "put scientists on a pedestal". What exactly does that mean?

are you suggesting that only 2% of scientists are atheists, because that was clearly my point.

You stated "River will ask us how we can go against nearly all trained scientists without ever thinking these same people are atheists". Were you saying that "nearly all trained scientists" are atheists?

changes over time within organisms once again is not the issue here.

I'm not sure how that relates to what I posted to you.

 

[aspen]

So once again we come to the million dollar question. What part of the bible do you accept? Only those parts which make you comfortable? How do you know which to believe?

So you are asking me a sovereignty question again. Why is this the only important part of Christianity for so many people? It blows me away - it really does. First, why would you ask me a question like this? Since when does labeling an atrocity what it actually is, tell you that I do not accept the Bible? There are many more examples of genocide, infanticide, nationalism, murder, adultery in the OT to choose from - I accept it all - do you? Or do you have to sanitize all of it to protect Gods sovereignty masquerading as His 'goodness'?

He doesn't need your help. He is also probably tired of being credited for mans sin by well meaning Christians who think their giving Him 'all the glory'

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

River,

If God made everything?

Did He make mountains?

If He used volcano's to accomplish said task, why would I care?

I don't.

If you do not believe God made everything, then how do you explain why anything exists as opposed to nothing at all?

Do you believe God is some multiverse cosmic surfer who noticed the quantum tunneling here and decided this might be a nice place to live?

Yes, I am saying most scientists are atheists and they believe you are genetically predisposed to belief in the man in the sky. Most of them anyway, the rest just think you are delusional?

Are you?

 

[River Jordan]

River,

If God made everything?

Did He make mountains?

If He used volcano's to accomplish said task, why would I care?

So you're comfortable believing that God used natural mechanisms (plate tectonics, volcanoes) to create mountains?

Do you believe God is some multiverse cosmic surfer who noticed the quantum tunneling here and decided this might be a nice place to live?

Um.......no. :blink:

Yes, I am saying most scientists are atheists and they believe you are genetically predisposed to belief in the man in the sky. Most of them anyway, the rest just think you are delusional?

Yet you use a computer and the internet to express your hatred of scientists. Hilarious. :lol:

Are you?

If I said "yes", then that would be a delusional statement, which means I'm actually not delusional. So..........yes.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Yes, plate tectonics, and to a lessor extent volcanos.

Scientists did not invent the internet. Al Gore did.

So, what exactly in your opinion, did God do in creation? Did He play any role?

 

[River Jordan]

Scripture teaches that God created by letting things happen. He "let there be light", He let the waters separate, let dry ground appear, let the land and seas produce life...etc.

The theme is clear. God created by letting things happen on their own, and IMO according to the universal laws that He created.