River Jordan said:
Uhh. So where those things came from? Where did light come from? Where did ground and water? There was this NOTHING and then "bang" it became everything! "Supergod" is about to tell us.
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intelligent design vs creationism
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Uhh. So where those things came from? Where did light come from? Where did ground and water? There was this NOTHING and then "bang" it became everything! "Supergod" is about to tell us.
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This is worthy of further consideration. How far reaching can this principle be taken? His Name and its gradual unfolding; His plan with the earth and its unfolding and many more examples in the believers life.River Jordan said:
Really liked this point River.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
It is a no brainer that God sets things in motion. Don't be flabbergasted by this for too long. It takes knowledge of scripture to know that mankind's sin tainted this motion. Not God. Tainted = heaven / garden of Eden becoming earth as it is.Purity said:
Evolution suggests God tainted creation. Now that, we should all have a problem with as God is good not bad.
I agree. The Discovery Institute in the USA does a good job of debunking Evolution.
Interestingly; according to Lady Hope, Darwin expressed his faith in Christ before he died, and also expressed regret for taking his "adaption" too far!
Dr. Johnathan Wells speaks very well on evolution theory, as a very well qualified Scientist. (see Discovery Institute).
Regards.
Floyd.
Interestingly; according to Lady Hope, Darwin expressed his faith in Christ before he died, and also expressed regret for taking his "adaption" too far!
Dr. Johnathan Wells speaks very well on evolution theory, as a very well qualified Scientist. (see Discovery Institute).
Regards.
Floyd.
Don't you know the Discovery Institute?
Look it up!
You can then see for yourself!
Regarding Darwin; nobody "told me that".
You can read it for yourself at: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk under Subjectindex; "Did Darwin become a Christion on his deathbed"
Regards.
Floyd.
Look it up!
You can then see for yourself!
Regarding Darwin; nobody "told me that".
You can read it for yourself at: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk under Subjectindex; "Did Darwin become a Christion on his deathbed"
Regards.
Floyd.
I'm very familiar with the Discovery Institute and their material. So where exactly have the "debunked evolution"?
Also, Darwin's daughter wrote in The Christian in 1922, "I was present at his deathbed. Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A."
His son wrote in 1918, "Lady Hope's account of my father's views on religion is quite untrue. I have publicly accused her of falsehood, but have not seen any reply. My father's agnostic point of view is given in my Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Vol. I., pp. 304-317. You are at liberty to publish the above statement. Indeed, I shall be glad if you will do so."
Interesting story.
Also, Darwin's daughter wrote in The Christian in 1922, "I was present at his deathbed. Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A."
His son wrote in 1918, "Lady Hope's account of my father's views on religion is quite untrue. I have publicly accused her of falsehood, but have not seen any reply. My father's agnostic point of view is given in my Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Vol. I., pp. 304-317. You are at liberty to publish the above statement. Indeed, I shall be glad if you will do so."
Interesting story.
So have a lot of scientists. I'm curious about the DI and the claim that they have "debunked evolution".ChristianJuggarnaut said:
Debates are not how science is settled. A good debater can take one side of an argument, win a debate, and then take the opposite side and win again. It's a pretty common training technique for debate teams.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
meyer is a competent philosopher - i took a logic class from him as an undergrad. he is not a scientist and his ethics are questionable after he used a connection to get an ID paper published in a crediable scientific journal.
These rebuttals from the Darwin family are common knowledge; but are discounted in the main because it is construed that they wish to maintain their social and eminent status as Darwins line!
When/if you read the Paper I quoted; you will see a very cogent discussion on both sides of the argument.
My opinion is that because of other peoples input, Lady Hope is probably to be believed!
Floyd.
When/if you read the Paper I quoted; you will see a very cogent discussion on both sides of the argument.
My opinion is that because of other peoples input, Lady Hope is probably to be believed!
Floyd.
So I wonder, if true, what significance would this Lady Hope story carry?
And I'm still waiting for DI's "debunking of evolution".
And I'm still waiting for DI's "debunking of evolution".
The Age of the Earth Controversy.
Whenever this subject is debated, the participants quickly form into groups of varying opinion, which usually are the well-known, well worn ‘ideas’. There are many 'theories' as to the origin of the Earth and the Universe, but the two main ones are:
1) The Big Bang Theory.
2) Creation by God.
As regards the 'Big Bang', this has been discussed and taught very ably by its proponents, that any comment here would be disregarded as 'unlearned'; which is quite true; as the writers do not study in depth any subject considered superfluous to Truth! The evidence for and against it is well documented, and can be studied by any person at will. Drawing conclusions on these recorded writings is not possible as the factors are so insecure, and eventually the person is left with the choice (as with science) of accepting or rejecting; and from then on either being fixed minded or open minded to further information.
As regards Creation by God (the God of the Bible), in the context of the Bible, it is Truth! The major problem is the many wrong interpretations of what is written in the Bible, and what it is actually saying!
Most of the teaching of Creation is/was stereotyped on the understanding that the age of the Earth is the same as the age of humankind from Adam, which in the opinion of the writers, and many others is not so! The Bible states absolutely in Genesis the first book of the Bible, that God Created the world, and all life from Eden onwards. In Revelation 4:11, the creation fact is lauded by the heavenly council of 24, who are praising the fact, and what is about to be brought to conclusion on earth by Jehovah Zebaoth, in enactment of prophecy.
Well-meaning Christians have for generations taught and been taught that the earth is approx 6,000 years old; because working back through the data which the Bible provides of the life spans of its main characters from Adam up to Jesus the Christ, gives that time scale, together with the well-known dating since Jesus; with minor variation, due to Calendar changes.
The mistaken assumption that the two; (the time span of mankind and the age of the earth) are identical, because of the apparent wording of Genesis; has led many sincere and intelligent people to discredit the Bible, by their dogged and dogmatic defence of that idea and teaching, against all attempts to show otherwise. To be fair to them, their task was made worse by the advent of the 'Evolution Theory', in the mid 1800s; which seemed to put 'Science' onto a higher footing than 'Religion'. The many fossil finds around the world since, and the very old dating's attributed, gave even more credence to science, and in the minds of many people enhanced the standing of the new discoveries, and the idea of Evolution.
What is generally not known, is that prior to Darwin's ideas, a few enlightened Bible teachers had for some time been postulating that the age of the earth was probably much older than taught at the time, one such being Professor Thomas Chalmers, a Protestant Theologian, and Mathematician. His teaching was many years prior to Darwin; and therefore he was not trying to accommodate Darwin's Ideas, but was moved by the wording of Genesis.
The whole issue took a back seat to some extent, due to the apparent new 'truth' of Darwin's Evolution publications; and the new ideas took root to the extent that by the end of the 20th century many teaching institutions in the Western world will not teach 'Creationism' alongside Evolution! A famous Court case in the USA (Dover), has reinforced that Official position!
The major disservice that some Christians are still perpetrating, albeit well meaning, that the earth is only 6,000 years old; (called Young Earth Creationists, or YECs) onto the population of the world, undermines their witness to the saving Grace of God in Christ Jesus; as the now well educated population see/perceive the fallacy of the statement, and assume that the Gospel of Salvation is therefore also just as false and foolish! They now look to Science for truth, and Satan, with masterful timing, has now wrapped together Evolution and old Earth hypothesis; to give credence to the amounts of time needed for the idea of Evolution to take place! Science, with justification, states that the earth is approx. 4.5 to 5.5 billion years old!
This timescale has been grasped by the Evolutionist Camp, to justify their 'Steady State' theory; completely disregarding the well known facts regarding 'Mass Extinctions', and worldwide geological upheaval and disruption, which have eliminated all life forms in the past, the remains of which are evident all over the world! The extent and scale of these catastrophic events, left whale bones near mountain tops, and literally Islands made up of animal remains! One well known researcher and writer on this subject is Immanuel Velikovsky and his book "World in Upheaval". See also Velikovski : ( Russian scientist).
Velikovski (a Russian Jew), was ahead of the general scientific thinking on creation. His ideas written in many books (see last link), caused him to be ostracised by main stream science (and some powerful individuals) because the ideas made impossible the 'Theory of Evolution', and in many scientists minds, even cast doubt on the 'big bang'. Velikvoski himself did not have a religious axe to grind; he worked purely to logic on observation and research in Geology. His ideas were liked and discussed with Einstein, but were not begun to be accepted until after his death. His basic thesis is that regular and repeated catastrophy on earth (every 30-50,000 years) do not allow the necessary 'steady state condition', that evolution insists is a pre-requisite for the idea of Evolution!
Further scientific comment and evidence is enumerated by Professor Paul Davies; See: "Big Bang" maths: (By Professor Paul Davies) and also The Survival of the Fakest: (Dr. Jonathan Wells Phd, Phd.) (Discovery Institute Publication), who describes the inaccurate (even fraudulent) publications by Evolutionary Scientists!
Another good author is Gaines Johnson, and his Website 'The Bible, Genesis and Geology'.
In the OBT, Sylvia Penny has done a good brief analysis of some of the main theories, in her booklet "Theories of Creation". As well as the brief analysis she gives reference to in depth study sources for those that wish to delve any of the theories. See: www.obt.org.uk.
At this stage, we are left with the interesting notion that mankind (from Adam), has only been on earth for approx 6,000 years, and that the earth is very old, 4 to 5 billion years (4-5000,000,000) at least! We know that fossilised remains of many creatures have been found, and there are certain to be many more undiscovered in the layers of earth’s history over such a period. When thinking of the 6,000 years since Adam, it is a very short time by comparison with the age of the earth, and one is reminded of that Biblical statement re. Jesus the Christ; that “He came at the end of the Ages”, to deal with sin, Hebrews 9:26. The word for "Ages" was mistranslated "world" in the KJV, which gives the wrong meaning.
This "Age" referred to was originally under the control of Adam, but, he failed at the beginning, but, Jesus the Christ succeeded at the Cross of Calvary; "as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1Cor.15:22.
So we see that this "6,000" years is rather different and special. We see that Adam failed at the beginning under test by Satan, but Jesus the Christ intervened 4,000 years later, and by His obedience to His Father throughout His life on earth, and His obedience "even to the death of the cross" Phil. 2:8; He achieved the Victory over sin and death!
Philippians 2:9-10, goes on to show the result of Christ's obedience; which shows a very wide result in Heaven, earth, and under the earth.
So, what had happened previously? A very good question.
What is the Biblical evidence that there was previous life on earth, prior to Adam?
What is self evident is that there was previous living creatures, as all the fossils now attest.
Starting at the beginning of the Bible, and reading Gen. 1:1 (KJV Companion Bible) we see:
"In the beginning God ( Heb. Elohim) created The Heaven/s (the Hebrew word is always plural ) and the earth".
It is notable that He created the "heavens" first; but that is another study.
Gen. 1:2 states:
"And the earth was (became) without form, (waste) and void; and darkness was (became) on the face of the deep".
So the corrected text (to the Hebrew) reads:
"And the earth became without form, and waste; and darkness came on the face of the deep".
Clearly something happened after Gen.1:1, and was between that and Gen.1:2!
The fact seems to be that God Himself ended whatever was in that time period between the two verses. The following extract is from www.revelationsmessage.co.uk (Revelation 13:8).
V.8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall (a)worship him every one whose name is not written in the (b)book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.
( B) "Book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world." The word "foundation" in Greek is "Katabole," which means "overthrow." This seems to have occurred at some stage between Gen. 1:1, and Gen. 1:2. No information is given as to the reason, but is implicit in Almighty God's Plan of Redemption in Christ, as the Lamb's book of life started after that event! Much clarity is given by Paul and Peter regarding this juncture point. It is clear from Eph. 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:20 that some are "known," before the "overthrow," some after. Only Christ and His Body as shown in Eph. 1:4 and Peter 1:20 are "known" before the overthrow (foundation.) Those after are the Jew, and other groups, i.e. perhaps Christendom (religious but not of the Body of Christ,) overcomers of Revelation, and all who must eventually stand before the Great White Throne for Judgement. Here those after are referred to. Those before are in the opinion of the writers no longer on earth as mentioned earlier, (see chp. 8:1(a,) last para.) Some opinions are that The Lamb's book of life started before the overthrow/foundation, which however is not the writers view, as that does not concur with Scripture's statements, (see ref. Rev.3:5(c).) What is clear is that The Lamb's Blood is retrospective from the overthrow/foundation, and that there are two groupings, those known before and those after.
There are a number of other very strong clues to this hypothesis. The basic idea is that of "ruin", brought about by "an enemy"! In 2 Peter 3:5-7, a description is given of a desolate world which almost every body thinks is the post Noah Flood situation. That is certainly not the case. Verse 7 states; "But the heavens and the earth which are now". This clearly does not refer to the world between Gen.1-2, as "now" the heavenly bodies are still intact for their purpose of "light" (which is Gen.1-3, after the gap between Gen.1-2!) The post Noah Flood, enabled a "replenishment" of the earth with non-Nephilim bloodstock, of which only Noah's family was able to do, see Gen. 7:1. The reason for the Flood of Noah, is described in Gen. 6, and is a strong clue as to the ending of the previous world of Gen.1:1.
A further clue as briefly shown above are the mistranslation of critical words, right at the beginning of the Bible, which serve the purpose of our great enemy Satan, (not forgetting that he had/has the audacity to even try to use Scripture against the Lord of Glory Himself)!
The first word is in Gen.1:2, "was", correctly translated is became. The word "was" implies a state that God had Created, instead of becoming that way for a reason! Became also shows past tense, which in the error of the translators is not shown!
The next error is "without form", corrected to waste, which when put together with the rest of the verse shows that "the earth became waste and dark" (at some stage in the duration of that existence); and clearly at the volition of Almighty God; and for good reason, as hinted above in Gen.6.
We know now, due to relatively recent discoveries, that many creatures, both manlike, and great and small creatures have existed in the ancient past. Some seem to be monsters of great size and weird construction. Others in the form of man, but not the same! All are old, some very old, but manlike creatures seem to range in age from 20-30,000 years to millions of years, if the accounts on record are correct.
Apparently DNA samples have been collected which show that there is no similarity in these creatures to so called "modern man". This term is used by science to describe humankind, when they want to differentiate between us and fossils of manlike creatures! The apparent fact of DNA dissimilarity does not stop the headlong rush to try to link ancient remains with modern man; and to "prove" Darwin's idea of Evolution, even though before he died, he professed his trust in Christ; (according to Lady Hope), and, many have said his thesis on Adaption is valid, but he had "projected too far"!
We are now at the stage of asking why Almighty God destroyed these previous creatures?
The answer is only deduced from His Word to us.
We know from His Word that God is love! We know therefore that He will not act in any way out of that context! The following is taken from earlier work, to avoid repetition:
ULTIMATE LOVE
Revelation Chapter 12
V.12 Therefore (a)rejoice ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. (b)Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the devil is come down to you having (c)great anger, knowing he has only a little time."
(a) The inhabitants of heaven, exhorted to rejoice. Clearly Satan had for many ages caused great trouble, strife, conflict and much turmoil, beyond our ability to understand, whilst allowed to retain a "place," in heaven. It is also clear that his success persuaded one third of all angels to follow him. His presence is a constant source of pernicious, ongoing divisive action in heaven. Even though heaven's creation know who their Creator is, Satan still has much success in converting angelic creation to his side. One of the many major differences between mankind and angels, is humans will deny the existence of God Almighty, and also Satan. It is implicit that one element is common to both earthly and heavenly creation, free will! It is therefore easy to understand that heavenly creation rejoices at the expulsion of such an adversary, after so long in their midst, and also in the knowledge that Satan's efforts will be short on earth. The question often asked by many over the years, is how could Almighty God allow Satan to exist after such rebellion, and even to be in His presence, to have place in heaven; and patrol earth (Job 1 and 2.) The answer undoubtedly lies in The Perfect Plan of Redemption, that only God could conceive, wherein the Perfect Love of God would allow Satan to perform to his vile worst in heaven as well as earth after the overthrow, all of which is observed by heavenly creation (Eph. 3:10.) Some argue that such a protracted process is wasteful, painful, and suffers great loss of life and environment. That is to miss the main point. It is of course easily possible for Almighty God to eliminate Satan. To do so however prematurely would not allow creation to see the depth of sin that Satan will eventually stoop to. Conversely, the Almighty will be seen by all creation to take the burden and result on Himself, in the form of Christ Jesus (Col. 1:20.) It is thereafter the response to Christ's death and suffering (in the place of all humankind,) which is the key to individuals eternal destiny, on earth and also in heaven, in this age, and eternity!
The main thrust for Satan's pernicious attention had been heaven's occupants and the tribes of Israel. Abraham was chosen by God! He was called "the friend of God," Ex. 33:11, 2Chr. 20:7, Isa. 41:8, Jms. 2:23, because his heart was against the idolatry of his father, and the nation Ur, which derived from Babylon! After Paul's declaration (Acts 28:25-28,) all the world's nations became the subject of Satan’s attention; which showed in the Wisdom of Jehovah Zebaoth, that the failure of Satan at The Cross and the failure of Israel to accept Christ (Acts 28:26,) increased the eventual harvest for Christ / Jehovah. Most people on earth are fixated with their flesh life, which is natural enough. However, God has ordained that they are not content, and can only find rest, peace and understanding in Him, albeit in simple sincere trust, which most people find hard to give unless they encounter Christ, personally. Because all the efforts of Satan are eventually self-defeating, and will be seen as such by heavenly and earthly creation, the Almighty in Christ will vanquish Satan, but not until heaven and earth have been reminded that Satan stands for deceit, destruction, suffering, and death, as opposed to the Love, Peace, Justice and Righteousness of Jehovah/Christ. After that reminder, Satan and his followers will be consigned to doom (Rev. 20:10.) All that remains for individuals at the present time (i.e. this age) is to trust in God's work, in Christ Jesus. The timing of the above is in the hands of the Father only (Matt. 24:36,) and His timing is perfect (Matt. 5:48.) The perfect timing of God the Father means that Satan is defeated by perfect Love (a concept totally alien to mankind
which means that Satan is defeated by Love, which is God (1 John 4:8-16!) Had Satan been destroyed at the time of his rebellion, none of the above could have come into play, and such action by the Almighty would have been seen by creation as dictatorial, and His plan of Love could not unfold to fruition. As the plan now unfolds, God will indeed be seen as Ultimate Love.
We know that Satan has rebelled against God, after being appointed the "Covering Cherub"; (Ezek.28:12-15) over God's creation. It is his wish to be "as God"; (Isaiah 14:12-14).
The translation in KJV again errs, as 28:14 should read "thou wast", not "thou art". The reference here, (according to Dr. Bullinger / Dr. Ginsburg) is to his appointment over the "world that then was".
We know that in this Age (of Grace); Satan is trying to do the following:
Satan's strategy is:-
1) To obtain the knowledge of creation (Jer. 31:35-37,) (this has been sought avidly by science since approx. AD 1850.)
2) To destroy the earth by degradation of all means. (This has accelerated since the start of the Industrial revolution.)
3) To destroy Israel. (This has increased in intensity during and since the 2nd world war.)
4) To destroy faith in God/ Christ. Satan is permitted to do his best/worst, to kill or prevent belief, faith, or love in Christ! Satan's massive success is in the "churches" and Sects around the world, where Truth is perverted from the Pulpit.
1) Satan has been trying to obtain the knowledge of creation from the beginning, and is behind the work of Darwin and others to this purpose. He will not admit defeat, and will persevere in this up to the “Day of the Lord”.
2) The attempts to degrade the earth’s environment has accelerated since the Industrial Revolution in the UK, and is a strong sign of the times we are living in, accelerating towards the “Day of The Lord”.
3) The effort of Satan to destroy Israel, has been underway since Abram. As the promises were made by Jehovah God to His people, Satan’s efforts have increased, as was evidenced by the 2nd world war. The fact that the religious life of Israel is dominated by Pharisees, the same group that denied and organized Christ’s crucifixion via the Romans, does not help their situation, nor their denial of Satan as a powerful entity against God, and themselves! Satan’s purpose is to eliminate Israel, so that he can negate God’s promises to the Patriarchs! God has stated categorically that Israel will always exist, (Jer. 31:36-37) and Satan is extremely active in trying to thwart that Promise! Israel, since becoming a Nation again in 1948, are probably close to the OT promised culminations, but unfortunately, have yet to suffer more. They have yet to experience a false leader and situation, which will thankfully be short lived!
4) Satan’s current major thrust is to try to destroy the message of God in Christ. Since the Reformation in the 16th century he has lost his grip on the Word of God through the Roman Church, (although it has crept back to quite a large degree). He has quite successfully transferred corruption and confusion to many Protestant groups, to the extent that many people are held under one form of bondage or another! How has he done this? Quite simply by the same methods he used in the Roman case. He has used the minds of men to distort the Words of God, especially in Christ Jesus. The reformation ethos of re-examining the basic Principles of Doctrine were/are fertile ground for him!
We see therefore in the above thesis, that Satan has been involved from the beginning of the earth’s Creation, in attempting to "be as God"!
We can only speculate as to all the ways he has been trying to unseat Almighty God; but we can be sure that is his purpose. The creatures of the previous creation may well show the many attempts to emulate the power of God, that God has graciously allowed to take place!
We know also from Revelation, that Satan has been successful in persuading one third of heaven's occupants to join him in his rebellion, and that God allowed this freedom of choice!
The lesson is clear; freedom of choice is paramount in Almighty God's Plan of Redemption; and currently that is available in the Person of Christ Jesus! All who will, may come to Him; by freewill!
The current population of the world is "in the image and likeness of God", in the original creation of Adam and Eve. The loss of “innocence” (in the Garden of Eden), produced the well-known loss of relationship with God. The remedy by God’s volition is also provided by Him. The fact that "God is Spirit" means that only those who choose in sincerity to bond with Him, can do so "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24); and that through Christ Jesus! This was missing in the previous creation (in the writers opinion), and it is probable that Satan, as he did prior to Noah, through his agents, brought about a grotesque creature similar to the Nephilim of the Old Testament.
God, in His Wisdom, restarted His attempts to bring about a faithful and trusting people with His call of Abram out of Urr. The outcome was as recorded in the Old Testament; and led to the final action of God in Christ Jesus, which due to Israel's rejection, is now on offer to all the world's peoples. This described in: The position of the Jews in Scripture, Old and New Testaments.
This thesis proposes that what seemed like failure in earlier creation, was in fact one of the steps taken by God towards the ultimate purpose of dealing with the "mystery of iniquity" (2 Thess. 2:7) e.g: The abject failure of Satan in the earlier Creation, to "be as God". The failure of Adam/Eve to resist Satan in Eden. The failure of all but Noah's family against the Nephilim, (see: Nephilim
The failure of "the children of Israel" to obey and honour Jehovah and Moses, also to acknowledge the first Advent of Jesus the Christ. His Crucifixion and death; fulfilled the curse of God on Satan in Eden, (Gen.3:15), and has become God's great salvation offer to all mankind, after Acts 28:28!
Future events: The "peace covenant for Israel". The appearance of Anti-christ. The Tribulation of Satan on Israel. The simultaneous Tribulation (Wrath of God) on the unbelieving nations of the world. The "Battle of Armageddon", when many nations will try to eliminate Israel. The Second Advent of Christ, in "Power and great Glory". The judgement of the nations by Christ, into "sheep and goats" Matt. 25:31-46. (See: The Sheep and Goat Judgement (Separate study). The establishment of The Millennial Reign of Christ/God from Jerusalem.
In all of the above, Satan will still attempt to "be as God". He will be present in the Anti-christ, the Tribulation of Israel, the nations attempting to eliminate Israel; and his defeat will not be evident, until "the remnant of Israel" are saved by Christ Himself! It is not until this stage that Satan will be bound, and cast into "the bottomless pit", to be bound for 1,000 years; when his final attempt "to be as God" will be enacted, prior to his destruction, See: Satan bound; 20:2 (a) (c) (d). and Satan's release from the pit; 20:7 (a). At that time Almighty God will be totally vindicated, and will be seen by all to be, "Ultimate Love".
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Whenever this subject is debated, the participants quickly form into groups of varying opinion, which usually are the well-known, well worn ‘ideas’. There are many 'theories' as to the origin of the Earth and the Universe, but the two main ones are:
1) The Big Bang Theory.
2) Creation by God.
As regards the 'Big Bang', this has been discussed and taught very ably by its proponents, that any comment here would be disregarded as 'unlearned'; which is quite true; as the writers do not study in depth any subject considered superfluous to Truth! The evidence for and against it is well documented, and can be studied by any person at will. Drawing conclusions on these recorded writings is not possible as the factors are so insecure, and eventually the person is left with the choice (as with science) of accepting or rejecting; and from then on either being fixed minded or open minded to further information.
As regards Creation by God (the God of the Bible), in the context of the Bible, it is Truth! The major problem is the many wrong interpretations of what is written in the Bible, and what it is actually saying!
Most of the teaching of Creation is/was stereotyped on the understanding that the age of the Earth is the same as the age of humankind from Adam, which in the opinion of the writers, and many others is not so! The Bible states absolutely in Genesis the first book of the Bible, that God Created the world, and all life from Eden onwards. In Revelation 4:11, the creation fact is lauded by the heavenly council of 24, who are praising the fact, and what is about to be brought to conclusion on earth by Jehovah Zebaoth, in enactment of prophecy.
Well-meaning Christians have for generations taught and been taught that the earth is approx 6,000 years old; because working back through the data which the Bible provides of the life spans of its main characters from Adam up to Jesus the Christ, gives that time scale, together with the well-known dating since Jesus; with minor variation, due to Calendar changes.
The mistaken assumption that the two; (the time span of mankind and the age of the earth) are identical, because of the apparent wording of Genesis; has led many sincere and intelligent people to discredit the Bible, by their dogged and dogmatic defence of that idea and teaching, against all attempts to show otherwise. To be fair to them, their task was made worse by the advent of the 'Evolution Theory', in the mid 1800s; which seemed to put 'Science' onto a higher footing than 'Religion'. The many fossil finds around the world since, and the very old dating's attributed, gave even more credence to science, and in the minds of many people enhanced the standing of the new discoveries, and the idea of Evolution.
What is generally not known, is that prior to Darwin's ideas, a few enlightened Bible teachers had for some time been postulating that the age of the earth was probably much older than taught at the time, one such being Professor Thomas Chalmers, a Protestant Theologian, and Mathematician. His teaching was many years prior to Darwin; and therefore he was not trying to accommodate Darwin's Ideas, but was moved by the wording of Genesis.
The whole issue took a back seat to some extent, due to the apparent new 'truth' of Darwin's Evolution publications; and the new ideas took root to the extent that by the end of the 20th century many teaching institutions in the Western world will not teach 'Creationism' alongside Evolution! A famous Court case in the USA (Dover), has reinforced that Official position!
The major disservice that some Christians are still perpetrating, albeit well meaning, that the earth is only 6,000 years old; (called Young Earth Creationists, or YECs) onto the population of the world, undermines their witness to the saving Grace of God in Christ Jesus; as the now well educated population see/perceive the fallacy of the statement, and assume that the Gospel of Salvation is therefore also just as false and foolish! They now look to Science for truth, and Satan, with masterful timing, has now wrapped together Evolution and old Earth hypothesis; to give credence to the amounts of time needed for the idea of Evolution to take place! Science, with justification, states that the earth is approx. 4.5 to 5.5 billion years old!
This timescale has been grasped by the Evolutionist Camp, to justify their 'Steady State' theory; completely disregarding the well known facts regarding 'Mass Extinctions', and worldwide geological upheaval and disruption, which have eliminated all life forms in the past, the remains of which are evident all over the world! The extent and scale of these catastrophic events, left whale bones near mountain tops, and literally Islands made up of animal remains! One well known researcher and writer on this subject is Immanuel Velikovsky and his book "World in Upheaval". See also Velikovski : ( Russian scientist).
Velikovski (a Russian Jew), was ahead of the general scientific thinking on creation. His ideas written in many books (see last link), caused him to be ostracised by main stream science (and some powerful individuals) because the ideas made impossible the 'Theory of Evolution', and in many scientists minds, even cast doubt on the 'big bang'. Velikvoski himself did not have a religious axe to grind; he worked purely to logic on observation and research in Geology. His ideas were liked and discussed with Einstein, but were not begun to be accepted until after his death. His basic thesis is that regular and repeated catastrophy on earth (every 30-50,000 years) do not allow the necessary 'steady state condition', that evolution insists is a pre-requisite for the idea of Evolution!
Further scientific comment and evidence is enumerated by Professor Paul Davies; See: "Big Bang" maths: (By Professor Paul Davies) and also The Survival of the Fakest: (Dr. Jonathan Wells Phd, Phd.) (Discovery Institute Publication), who describes the inaccurate (even fraudulent) publications by Evolutionary Scientists!
Another good author is Gaines Johnson, and his Website 'The Bible, Genesis and Geology'.
In the OBT, Sylvia Penny has done a good brief analysis of some of the main theories, in her booklet "Theories of Creation". As well as the brief analysis she gives reference to in depth study sources for those that wish to delve any of the theories. See: www.obt.org.uk.
At this stage, we are left with the interesting notion that mankind (from Adam), has only been on earth for approx 6,000 years, and that the earth is very old, 4 to 5 billion years (4-5000,000,000) at least! We know that fossilised remains of many creatures have been found, and there are certain to be many more undiscovered in the layers of earth’s history over such a period. When thinking of the 6,000 years since Adam, it is a very short time by comparison with the age of the earth, and one is reminded of that Biblical statement re. Jesus the Christ; that “He came at the end of the Ages”, to deal with sin, Hebrews 9:26. The word for "Ages" was mistranslated "world" in the KJV, which gives the wrong meaning.
This "Age" referred to was originally under the control of Adam, but, he failed at the beginning, but, Jesus the Christ succeeded at the Cross of Calvary; "as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1Cor.15:22.
So we see that this "6,000" years is rather different and special. We see that Adam failed at the beginning under test by Satan, but Jesus the Christ intervened 4,000 years later, and by His obedience to His Father throughout His life on earth, and His obedience "even to the death of the cross" Phil. 2:8; He achieved the Victory over sin and death!
Philippians 2:9-10, goes on to show the result of Christ's obedience; which shows a very wide result in Heaven, earth, and under the earth.
So, what had happened previously? A very good question.
What is the Biblical evidence that there was previous life on earth, prior to Adam?
What is self evident is that there was previous living creatures, as all the fossils now attest.
Starting at the beginning of the Bible, and reading Gen. 1:1 (KJV Companion Bible) we see:
"In the beginning God ( Heb. Elohim) created The Heaven/s (the Hebrew word is always plural ) and the earth".
It is notable that He created the "heavens" first; but that is another study.
Gen. 1:2 states:
"And the earth was (became) without form, (waste) and void; and darkness was (became) on the face of the deep".
So the corrected text (to the Hebrew) reads:
"And the earth became without form, and waste; and darkness came on the face of the deep".
Clearly something happened after Gen.1:1, and was between that and Gen.1:2!
The fact seems to be that God Himself ended whatever was in that time period between the two verses. The following extract is from www.revelationsmessage.co.uk (Revelation 13:8).
V.8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall (a)worship him every one whose name is not written in the (b)book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.
( B) "Book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world." The word "foundation" in Greek is "Katabole," which means "overthrow." This seems to have occurred at some stage between Gen. 1:1, and Gen. 1:2. No information is given as to the reason, but is implicit in Almighty God's Plan of Redemption in Christ, as the Lamb's book of life started after that event! Much clarity is given by Paul and Peter regarding this juncture point. It is clear from Eph. 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:20 that some are "known," before the "overthrow," some after. Only Christ and His Body as shown in Eph. 1:4 and Peter 1:20 are "known" before the overthrow (foundation.) Those after are the Jew, and other groups, i.e. perhaps Christendom (religious but not of the Body of Christ,) overcomers of Revelation, and all who must eventually stand before the Great White Throne for Judgement. Here those after are referred to. Those before are in the opinion of the writers no longer on earth as mentioned earlier, (see chp. 8:1(a,) last para.) Some opinions are that The Lamb's book of life started before the overthrow/foundation, which however is not the writers view, as that does not concur with Scripture's statements, (see ref. Rev.3:5(c).) What is clear is that The Lamb's Blood is retrospective from the overthrow/foundation, and that there are two groupings, those known before and those after.
There are a number of other very strong clues to this hypothesis. The basic idea is that of "ruin", brought about by "an enemy"! In 2 Peter 3:5-7, a description is given of a desolate world which almost every body thinks is the post Noah Flood situation. That is certainly not the case. Verse 7 states; "But the heavens and the earth which are now". This clearly does not refer to the world between Gen.1-2, as "now" the heavenly bodies are still intact for their purpose of "light" (which is Gen.1-3, after the gap between Gen.1-2!) The post Noah Flood, enabled a "replenishment" of the earth with non-Nephilim bloodstock, of which only Noah's family was able to do, see Gen. 7:1. The reason for the Flood of Noah, is described in Gen. 6, and is a strong clue as to the ending of the previous world of Gen.1:1.
A further clue as briefly shown above are the mistranslation of critical words, right at the beginning of the Bible, which serve the purpose of our great enemy Satan, (not forgetting that he had/has the audacity to even try to use Scripture against the Lord of Glory Himself)!
The first word is in Gen.1:2, "was", correctly translated is became. The word "was" implies a state that God had Created, instead of becoming that way for a reason! Became also shows past tense, which in the error of the translators is not shown!
The next error is "without form", corrected to waste, which when put together with the rest of the verse shows that "the earth became waste and dark" (at some stage in the duration of that existence); and clearly at the volition of Almighty God; and for good reason, as hinted above in Gen.6.
We know now, due to relatively recent discoveries, that many creatures, both manlike, and great and small creatures have existed in the ancient past. Some seem to be monsters of great size and weird construction. Others in the form of man, but not the same! All are old, some very old, but manlike creatures seem to range in age from 20-30,000 years to millions of years, if the accounts on record are correct.
Apparently DNA samples have been collected which show that there is no similarity in these creatures to so called "modern man". This term is used by science to describe humankind, when they want to differentiate between us and fossils of manlike creatures! The apparent fact of DNA dissimilarity does not stop the headlong rush to try to link ancient remains with modern man; and to "prove" Darwin's idea of Evolution, even though before he died, he professed his trust in Christ; (according to Lady Hope), and, many have said his thesis on Adaption is valid, but he had "projected too far"!
We are now at the stage of asking why Almighty God destroyed these previous creatures?
The answer is only deduced from His Word to us.
We know from His Word that God is love! We know therefore that He will not act in any way out of that context! The following is taken from earlier work, to avoid repetition:
ULTIMATE LOVE
Revelation Chapter 12
V.12 Therefore (a)rejoice ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. (b)Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the devil is come down to you having (c)great anger, knowing he has only a little time."
(a) The inhabitants of heaven, exhorted to rejoice. Clearly Satan had for many ages caused great trouble, strife, conflict and much turmoil, beyond our ability to understand, whilst allowed to retain a "place," in heaven. It is also clear that his success persuaded one third of all angels to follow him. His presence is a constant source of pernicious, ongoing divisive action in heaven. Even though heaven's creation know who their Creator is, Satan still has much success in converting angelic creation to his side. One of the many major differences between mankind and angels, is humans will deny the existence of God Almighty, and also Satan. It is implicit that one element is common to both earthly and heavenly creation, free will! It is therefore easy to understand that heavenly creation rejoices at the expulsion of such an adversary, after so long in their midst, and also in the knowledge that Satan's efforts will be short on earth. The question often asked by many over the years, is how could Almighty God allow Satan to exist after such rebellion, and even to be in His presence, to have place in heaven; and patrol earth (Job 1 and 2.) The answer undoubtedly lies in The Perfect Plan of Redemption, that only God could conceive, wherein the Perfect Love of God would allow Satan to perform to his vile worst in heaven as well as earth after the overthrow, all of which is observed by heavenly creation (Eph. 3:10.) Some argue that such a protracted process is wasteful, painful, and suffers great loss of life and environment. That is to miss the main point. It is of course easily possible for Almighty God to eliminate Satan. To do so however prematurely would not allow creation to see the depth of sin that Satan will eventually stoop to. Conversely, the Almighty will be seen by all creation to take the burden and result on Himself, in the form of Christ Jesus (Col. 1:20.) It is thereafter the response to Christ's death and suffering (in the place of all humankind,) which is the key to individuals eternal destiny, on earth and also in heaven, in this age, and eternity!
The main thrust for Satan's pernicious attention had been heaven's occupants and the tribes of Israel. Abraham was chosen by God! He was called "the friend of God," Ex. 33:11, 2Chr. 20:7, Isa. 41:8, Jms. 2:23, because his heart was against the idolatry of his father, and the nation Ur, which derived from Babylon! After Paul's declaration (Acts 28:25-28,) all the world's nations became the subject of Satan’s attention; which showed in the Wisdom of Jehovah Zebaoth, that the failure of Satan at The Cross and the failure of Israel to accept Christ (Acts 28:26,) increased the eventual harvest for Christ / Jehovah. Most people on earth are fixated with their flesh life, which is natural enough. However, God has ordained that they are not content, and can only find rest, peace and understanding in Him, albeit in simple sincere trust, which most people find hard to give unless they encounter Christ, personally. Because all the efforts of Satan are eventually self-defeating, and will be seen as such by heavenly and earthly creation, the Almighty in Christ will vanquish Satan, but not until heaven and earth have been reminded that Satan stands for deceit, destruction, suffering, and death, as opposed to the Love, Peace, Justice and Righteousness of Jehovah/Christ. After that reminder, Satan and his followers will be consigned to doom (Rev. 20:10.) All that remains for individuals at the present time (i.e. this age) is to trust in God's work, in Christ Jesus. The timing of the above is in the hands of the Father only (Matt. 24:36,) and His timing is perfect (Matt. 5:48.) The perfect timing of God the Father means that Satan is defeated by perfect Love (a concept totally alien to mankind
which means that Satan is defeated by Love, which is God (1 John 4:8-16!) Had Satan been destroyed at the time of his rebellion, none of the above could have come into play, and such action by the Almighty would have been seen by creation as dictatorial, and His plan of Love could not unfold to fruition. As the plan now unfolds, God will indeed be seen as Ultimate Love.We know that Satan has rebelled against God, after being appointed the "Covering Cherub"; (Ezek.28:12-15) over God's creation. It is his wish to be "as God"; (Isaiah 14:12-14).
The translation in KJV again errs, as 28:14 should read "thou wast", not "thou art". The reference here, (according to Dr. Bullinger / Dr. Ginsburg) is to his appointment over the "world that then was".
We know that in this Age (of Grace); Satan is trying to do the following:
Satan's strategy is:-
1) To obtain the knowledge of creation (Jer. 31:35-37,) (this has been sought avidly by science since approx. AD 1850.)
2) To destroy the earth by degradation of all means. (This has accelerated since the start of the Industrial revolution.)
3) To destroy Israel. (This has increased in intensity during and since the 2nd world war.)
4) To destroy faith in God/ Christ. Satan is permitted to do his best/worst, to kill or prevent belief, faith, or love in Christ! Satan's massive success is in the "churches" and Sects around the world, where Truth is perverted from the Pulpit.
1) Satan has been trying to obtain the knowledge of creation from the beginning, and is behind the work of Darwin and others to this purpose. He will not admit defeat, and will persevere in this up to the “Day of the Lord”.
2) The attempts to degrade the earth’s environment has accelerated since the Industrial Revolution in the UK, and is a strong sign of the times we are living in, accelerating towards the “Day of The Lord”.
3) The effort of Satan to destroy Israel, has been underway since Abram. As the promises were made by Jehovah God to His people, Satan’s efforts have increased, as was evidenced by the 2nd world war. The fact that the religious life of Israel is dominated by Pharisees, the same group that denied and organized Christ’s crucifixion via the Romans, does not help their situation, nor their denial of Satan as a powerful entity against God, and themselves! Satan’s purpose is to eliminate Israel, so that he can negate God’s promises to the Patriarchs! God has stated categorically that Israel will always exist, (Jer. 31:36-37) and Satan is extremely active in trying to thwart that Promise! Israel, since becoming a Nation again in 1948, are probably close to the OT promised culminations, but unfortunately, have yet to suffer more. They have yet to experience a false leader and situation, which will thankfully be short lived!
4) Satan’s current major thrust is to try to destroy the message of God in Christ. Since the Reformation in the 16th century he has lost his grip on the Word of God through the Roman Church, (although it has crept back to quite a large degree). He has quite successfully transferred corruption and confusion to many Protestant groups, to the extent that many people are held under one form of bondage or another! How has he done this? Quite simply by the same methods he used in the Roman case. He has used the minds of men to distort the Words of God, especially in Christ Jesus. The reformation ethos of re-examining the basic Principles of Doctrine were/are fertile ground for him!
We see therefore in the above thesis, that Satan has been involved from the beginning of the earth’s Creation, in attempting to "be as God"!
We can only speculate as to all the ways he has been trying to unseat Almighty God; but we can be sure that is his purpose. The creatures of the previous creation may well show the many attempts to emulate the power of God, that God has graciously allowed to take place!
We know also from Revelation, that Satan has been successful in persuading one third of heaven's occupants to join him in his rebellion, and that God allowed this freedom of choice!
The lesson is clear; freedom of choice is paramount in Almighty God's Plan of Redemption; and currently that is available in the Person of Christ Jesus! All who will, may come to Him; by freewill!
The current population of the world is "in the image and likeness of God", in the original creation of Adam and Eve. The loss of “innocence” (in the Garden of Eden), produced the well-known loss of relationship with God. The remedy by God’s volition is also provided by Him. The fact that "God is Spirit" means that only those who choose in sincerity to bond with Him, can do so "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24); and that through Christ Jesus! This was missing in the previous creation (in the writers opinion), and it is probable that Satan, as he did prior to Noah, through his agents, brought about a grotesque creature similar to the Nephilim of the Old Testament.
God, in His Wisdom, restarted His attempts to bring about a faithful and trusting people with His call of Abram out of Urr. The outcome was as recorded in the Old Testament; and led to the final action of God in Christ Jesus, which due to Israel's rejection, is now on offer to all the world's peoples. This described in: The position of the Jews in Scripture, Old and New Testaments.
This thesis proposes that what seemed like failure in earlier creation, was in fact one of the steps taken by God towards the ultimate purpose of dealing with the "mystery of iniquity" (2 Thess. 2:7) e.g: The abject failure of Satan in the earlier Creation, to "be as God". The failure of Adam/Eve to resist Satan in Eden. The failure of all but Noah's family against the Nephilim, (see: Nephilim
The failure of "the children of Israel" to obey and honour Jehovah and Moses, also to acknowledge the first Advent of Jesus the Christ. His Crucifixion and death; fulfilled the curse of God on Satan in Eden, (Gen.3:15), and has become God's great salvation offer to all mankind, after Acts 28:28!
Future events: The "peace covenant for Israel". The appearance of Anti-christ. The Tribulation of Satan on Israel. The simultaneous Tribulation (Wrath of God) on the unbelieving nations of the world. The "Battle of Armageddon", when many nations will try to eliminate Israel. The Second Advent of Christ, in "Power and great Glory". The judgement of the nations by Christ, into "sheep and goats" Matt. 25:31-46. (See: The Sheep and Goat Judgement (Separate study). The establishment of The Millennial Reign of Christ/God from Jerusalem.
In all of the above, Satan will still attempt to "be as God". He will be present in the Anti-christ, the Tribulation of Israel, the nations attempting to eliminate Israel; and his defeat will not be evident, until "the remnant of Israel" are saved by Christ Himself! It is not until this stage that Satan will be bound, and cast into "the bottomless pit", to be bound for 1,000 years; when his final attempt "to be as God" will be enacted, prior to his destruction, See: Satan bound; 20:2 (a) (c) (d). and Satan's release from the pit; 20:7 (a). At that time Almighty God will be totally vindicated, and will be seen by all to be, "Ultimate Love".
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