Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming

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rwb

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You apparently don't get how some things work. What was hidden in the OT at the time is revealed in the NT. What is one thing that is revealed in the NT? That there are two comings of Christ. Therefore, it is unreasonable to think that nothing recorded in the OT is involving the 2nd coming and what all happens because of and after that. The problem arises when one conflates in the OT events pertaining to the the 2nd coming with that of events pertaining to the first coming, which Amils oftentimes do. And in some cases, the same can be said about Premils as well.

The Old Covenant prophets foretell only of the Day of the Lord that shall come! And when He would come all that was written concerning Him would be fulfilled, including the final day of the Lord that is known only to those who live after the first coming. It is only after the first advent of Christ that Christ coming the second time is recorded is Scripture. Why would the prophets of Old believe the Messiah coming would need to come twice to accomplish all that was written concerning Him? After all they believed that at His coming He would usher in eternal life for all who believe.

Your problem with understanding that every premillennialist has is trying to force a second advent of exactly one thousand years between His first coming when all that was written concerning Him would be fulfilled, and His coming again on the final or last day of this age.
 
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WPM

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The Old Covenant prophets knew a Messiah would come, but they would not have written of His coming AGAIN. The prophesy is of a Messiah who would come and fulfill all that was written concerning Him when He finally came. They never mention a second coming because His coming they foretell is of the whole New Covenant age, when all would be fulfilled through Him. Why would the prophets of old write of Him coming the second time when they believed His coming would usher in eternal life, not by Him coming again but when He came? The fact that He was coming again could only be known and foretold by those who lived after the first advent of Christ. Which is why it is written from the New Testament a day of the Lord coming again. That would be the final day of this Messianic age the prophets foretell would come.

That's why prophesy of Old concerning the Messiah to come cannot be physically interpreted regarding the spiritual Kingdom of God Christ ushered in. Because trying to force a literal or physical interpretation of Old Covenant prophesy as Premillennialists always do makes zero sense of the prophetic words recorded in Scripture of Old.

The Old Testament prophets often described events pertaining to the 1st and 2nd advents in the same vision because they were looking ahead in time through a narrow telescope. They saw 2 mountains in the distance relating to the 2 advents but didn’t necessarily see the space in-between and the great valley of time (2000 years+) in-between the mountains. This is not strange in anyway. After all, mountains look much different from a distance than they do up close.

As the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report puts it: “certain prophetic texts are best interpreted according to what has commonly been called the shortened perspective. Events in the near and the distant future are often telescoped into one picture, like mountain peaks when seen from a distance. Sometimes the prophets focus on the immediate future and at other times on the distant future; however, both are seen at the same time” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).
 
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Timtofly

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When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).
None of those verses outside of Revelation mention a little season. Nothing in Revelation 20 speaks of demons released for a little season. That is you adding to the text. John does not imply those locust are for a "little season".

"And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months."

"and their power was to hurt men five months."

Talk about giving a literal time frame a symbolic interpretation called "little season". Do you not accuse others of making something literal, symbolic; and making something symbolic, literal?

Demons have been active on the earth since the Flood. When has that activity ever stopped for a prolonged period of time? The demonic realm does not even have a physical presence to be killed. Demons are not even killed when tosses into the LOF. How can you kill a spirit that has never once been physical to begin with?

You have yet to produce a single verse where Satan is loosed for a little season prior to the Second Coming.

I agree that the "kingdom of darkness" is removed at the timing of the Second Coming. The kingdom of darkness is the punishment for Adam's disobedience. The bondage of death and sin on creation. I would not use the term kingdom of darkness myself.

That would be the sentiment of:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

The first manifestation was prior to the Flood when the sons of God and their adamic offspring reprobated themselves with overwhelming wickedness. It was the spirits of those wicked prior to the Flood that became the demonic forces after the Flood. Then Noah's offspring of sinners could not stay righteous by their own initiatives, so they also succumbed to wicked desires also reprobating their spirits into the demonic realm. The reasoning Paul gives in Romans 1 eventually happens over and over after times of revival, and then backsliding back into sin.

That is the time declared over in Revelation 10, not physical time itself. The time of Adam's punishment is over. The time of creation under the bondage of the curse is over at the 7th Trumpet. The time of wicked sinners on the earth is over.

That means that at the end of Revelation 20 there are no wicked sinners, period. That time ended over 1,000 years prior before the Day of the Lord. So the only little season Satan gets is 1,000 years after the Second Coming. One more chance to deceive humans who are not wicked sinners, but those abiding under the Law of God without disobedience.

It is you who forces one's interpretation into the text to make it say what you want it to say, even making up your own chronological order to make your interpretation make any sense, even though it contradicts what John actually wrote.

Your argument is circular saying that Revelation 17-19 corroborates Revelation 20 because they are not in chronological order, and they are not in chronological order because Revelation 17-19 corroborates Revelation 20. Both points your man made interpretation of what was written.

We know that a third of the angels are released from chains of darkness on the day of Judgment. Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

This corroborates Revelation 12:4 and Revelation 9:2-3

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."

"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth."

Satan turned a third of the stars against God. They have been bound in the pit until the 5th Trumpet judgment. They were loosed as the 1st woe upon mankind. By the 7th Trumpet they have attacked heaven itself and have to be cast out of heaven one last time. Point out in that explanation anything I have personally added to Scripture or into the text.

In Revelation 12 we see a glimpse of many activities over time. Israel, Satan, and the birth of Jesus. Satan influencing a third of the stars. An attack by those stars against Michael:

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Is this: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth." in the same time frame as this: "Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." ?

Or did the 5th Trumpet sound between the two events given in Revelation 12? When was Jesus born in relationship to: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth." ?

Do we not have to take the whole of Scripture into consideration when interpreting Revelation 12? Revelation 12 is not a recap of the inter-advent period as you seem to insinuate. Revelation 12 includes ideas from the rebellion of Satan to the image of Daniel 2, and 5 earthly kingdoms or world empires starting with Babylon and ending at the Reformation. Obviously overlapping the OT and the NT. The Second Coming is not even implied to nor stated in Revelation 12. Revelation 13 is a follow up of that 7 headed dragon with a different angle of perception.

Satan is never said to have 7 dispensations of spiritual kingdoms. If you are against dispensational teaching, that would be ultra dispensational thought, beyond human government. We don't have to add to Revelation 12, we just continue to unravel this symbolism in Revelation 13 and in Revelation 17. We don't even have to force a Second Coming into chapters where the Second Coming would not belong in, to begin with. Yet you think John wants us to see 7 different views of the Second Coming in the book of Revelation.

Certainly one could attempt to place the Second Coming into Revelation 12, but obviously another may not agree on the placement as one is not purposely stated for clarity.

Revelation 12 is the only place something similar to a little season is given:

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

It is not even similar in thought nor context. The only thing similar is private interpretation of "short" and "little".

In Revelation 12 the context is the 3rd woe closely tied to the 7th Trumpet. Satan is not loosed from a pit, but cast out of heaven, so not the same context. The 1st woe is tied to the 5th Trumpet and releasing those rebel angels into the world. The 5th Trumpet and 7th Trumpet are not even the same event. The Trumpets and woes have to be your private interpretation added into the text of Revelation 20. Why would the earth need to have judgment after a thousand years of Jesus reigning over a regenerated earth?
 

rwb

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Only Christ reigns during the thousand years.

Who are those John writes "lived and reigned with Christ" for a thousand years before they were physically martyred for their faith? If they had not lived and reigned with Christ before they were killed, why does John indicate they had faith (lived & reigned) while physically alive, and that's why they were martyred? If they lived and reigned with Christ before they physically died, and no human has physically lived for ONE thousand years, it proves "a thousand years" is not one thousand literal years on this earth, but symbolizes TIME given this earth that mankind might hear the Gospel of the Kingdom preached and according to grace through faith the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven would be complete as man is born again through Christ's eternal life-giving Spirit within.

Also, who are those who "shall live" with Christ within this same period of time, symbolized a thousand years? They too shall live with Christ before they physically die, and that is within "a thousand years" or within TIME given this earth for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.
 
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rwb

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It seems there are more than two resurrections.

Rev 20 speaks only of the "first resurrection" that man must have part in before they physically die to overcome the second death, and the physical/bodily resurrection of all who are in the graves that shall be after the thousand years have expired.

If you mean there will be two physical resurrections for the physically dead, that is nowhere to be found in Rev 20.
 

rwb

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Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Are these “souls” living, and in the flesh when Christ returns?

How can they be physically living when Christ returns since they have been physically martyred for their faith in Christ? Since the resurrection of Christ, who is the "first resurrection" of the dead to never die again, these martyred saints are living souls in heaven, a spiritual body of believers that shall return with Christ when He comes the second time. Christ will bring back this spiritual body of believers, that are now with Him in heaven to give immortal and incorruptible physical life to their resurrected bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The rest of the dead are the "dead" that shall be resurrected to stand before the GWTJ to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Then "the dead" shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death. Because in life, or during time, symbolized a thousand years they had no part in the first resurrection that is the resurrection life through Christ. They physically died without the Spirit of Christ within who gives eternal life only to those who believe. The DEAD are not resurrected to live for one thousand physical years, time will have run out for them. Only those who lived and reigned (past tense) and those who shall live (future tense) with Christ during this time, symbolized a thousand years, shall be resurrected to immortal and incorruptible life for the new earth.
 
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rwb

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I believe your chronological order of events is incorrect…

Satan is heaven, and will come to earth ruling as antichrist…
Then Christ will return binding Satan for a thousand years.
Then Satan will be released.

These things have not happened as of yet.

Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and bound to this earth by Michael and his angels when Christ was born. (See Rev 12) Satan and his demonic hosts and all who follow him, have been ruling over the world of unbelievers since he was cast out of heaven. When Christ defeated sin and death through His cross and resurrection, the power Satan had held to deceive the nations (Gentiles) was also bound. Since the first advent of Christ the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has been proclaimed to all the nations of the world, and all who hear and believe the Gospel according to grace through faith have become part of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Before defeating death through His resurrection, Satan had the power to deceive Gentiles in unbelief to believing there is no life after physical death. Whosoever throughout the nations (Gentiles) believe the Gospel are no longer deceived into believing that physical death is the end for them. The faithful from every nation of the earth through the resurrection life of Christ, know the life we receive through His Spirit within is eternal/everlasting life and death of our natural body is simply transitioning from our natural body of death to heaven a spiritual body of believers there.
 
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rwb

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The home of angels is heaven, and we Michael an arch angel disputing when with Satan.

Jude 1:9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (KJV)

Where did this take place?

We

Revelation 12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! For the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

Past tense! Michael has already contended with the devil, casting him and his demonic hosts out of heaven, binding them to this earth. Since the first advent of Christ, the devil can no longer argue before God against the body of Moses or any other of the saints of Christ, because we are eternally with our Saviour, and not even physical death shall separate us from the love of God through Christ.

We learn the short time Satan had from the time he and his demonic hosts were cast out of heaven to the cross of Christ came to an end as Christ and His disciples began to cast out devils. This proves not only that the spiritual Kingdom of God has come, but also the power to hold people in bondage to fear of death is broken forever for whosoever hears the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and by grace through faith believes in Christ.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
 
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marks

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The answer is that none alive on the earth when the fire of God's wrath is poured upon the whole earth shall survive! To believe that some unregenerate souls can survive the fire from God is complete and utter nonsense! Which is what Premillennialism is!
I guess this ends the discussion?

Much love!
 

rwb

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I guess this ends the discussion?

Much love!

No, I don't believe Premillennialists will give up on teaching the unbiblical doctrine of a literal ONE thousand more years of time after the second coming of Christ, where some unregenerate souls might still have opportunity to turn to Christ for salvation. Premillennialists certainly will NOT allow biblical truths to detract them from their unbiblical doctrine!
 
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marks

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No, I don't believe Premillennialists will give up on teaching the unbiblical doctrine of a literal ONE thousand more years of time after the second coming of Christ, where some unregenerate souls might still have opportunity to turn to Christ for salvation. Premillennialists certainly will NOT allow biblical truths to detract them from their unbiblical doctrine!
I mean between you and I, due to your poor manners.

Much love!
 

rwb

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I mean between you and I, due to your poor manners.

Much love!

So be it! I notice you like to throw out accusations against other Christians in the forums when you cannot Biblically refute what is said. I'm not in the least concerned that you won't be replying to me! It's not poor manners that upsets you! It's the fact that you cannot speak against Biblical truth, because that would be arguing against God!
 

WPM

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So be it! I notice you like to throw out accusations against other Christians in the forums when you cannot Biblically refute what is said. I'm not in the least concerned that you won't be replying to me! It's not poor manners that upsets you! It's the fact that you cannot speak against Biblical truth, because that would be arguing against God!

Exactly bro. If they cannot attack the message they attack the messenger. That is their pattern on these boards. There is no answer to the truth. They either embrace what Scripture says states or they reject it. There's no in-between.
 
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marks

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It's not poor manners that upsets you!
You are right about this. I'm not upset by your poor manners, you were likely raised that way. Who knows? But in point of fact, I've chosen to not accept that sort of behavior, that's all.

Much love!
 

rwb

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You are right about this. I'm not upset by your poor manners, you were likely raised that way. Who knows? But in point of fact, I've chosen to not accept that sort of behavior, that's all.

Much love!

I think this is referred to as 'deflection'! IOW you deflect on others that which is true of yourself. Has nothing to do with behavior! Rather you're frustrated because you have only Rev 20 to try to hoist your unbiblical doctrine upon the community, and when you're biblically proven to be in error you go into attack mode!
 

marks

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I think this is referred to as 'deflection'! IOW you deflect on others that which is true of yourself.
You are thinking of "projection", where you apply to others what is true of yourself.

Much love!
 

WPM

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You are right about this. I'm not upset by your poor manners, you were likely raised that way. Who knows? But in point of fact, I've chosen to not accept that sort of behavior, that's all.

Much love!

Ad hominem, false accusations and avoidance of the scriptural arguments are all Premils seem to have in their armory on these boards.
 
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WPM

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None of those verses outside of Revelation mention a little season. Nothing in Revelation 20 speaks of demons released for a little season. That is you adding to the text. John does not imply those locust are for a "little season".

"And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months."

"and their power was to hurt men five months."

Talk about giving a literal time frame a symbolic interpretation called "little season". Do you not accuse others of making something literal, symbolic; and making something symbolic, literal?

Demons have been active on the earth since the Flood. When has that activity ever stopped for a prolonged period of time? The demonic realm does not even have a physical presence to be killed. Demons are not even killed when tosses into the LOF. How can you kill a spirit that has never once been physical to begin with?

You have yet to produce a single verse where Satan is loosed for a little season prior to the Second Coming.

I agree that the "kingdom of darkness" is removed at the timing of the Second Coming. The kingdom of darkness is the punishment for Adam's disobedience. The bondage of death and sin on creation. I would not use the term kingdom of darkness myself.

That would be the sentiment of:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

The first manifestation was prior to the Flood when the sons of God and their adamic offspring reprobated themselves with overwhelming wickedness. It was the spirits of those wicked prior to the Flood that became the demonic forces after the Flood. Then Noah's offspring of sinners could not stay righteous by their own initiatives, so they also succumbed to wicked desires also reprobating their spirits into the demonic realm. The reasoning Paul gives in Romans 1 eventually happens over and over after times of revival, and then backsliding back into sin.

That is the time declared over in Revelation 10, not physical time itself. The time of Adam's punishment is over. The time of creation under the bondage of the curse is over at the 7th Trumpet. The time of wicked sinners on the earth is over.

That means that at the end of Revelation 20 there are no wicked sinners, period. That time ended over 1,000 years prior before the Day of the Lord. So the only little season Satan gets is 1,000 years after the Second Coming. One more chance to deceive humans who are not wicked sinners, but those abiding under the Law of God without disobedience.

It is you who forces one's interpretation into the text to make it say what you want it to say, even making up your own chronological order to make your interpretation make any sense, even though it contradicts what John actually wrote.

Your argument is circular saying that Revelation 17-19 corroborates Revelation 20 because they are not in chronological order, and they are not in chronological order because Revelation 17-19 corroborates Revelation 20. Both points your man made interpretation of what was written.

We know that a third of the angels are released from chains of darkness on the day of Judgment. Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

This corroborates Revelation 12:4 and Revelation 9:2-3

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."

"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth."

Satan turned a third of the stars against God. They have been bound in the pit until the 5th Trumpet judgment. They were loosed as the 1st woe upon mankind. By the 7th Trumpet they have attacked heaven itself and have to be cast out of heaven one last time. Point out in that explanation anything I have personally added to Scripture or into the text.

In Revelation 12 we see a glimpse of many activities over time. Israel, Satan, and the birth of Jesus. Satan influencing a third of the stars. An attack by those stars against Michael:

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Is this: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth." in the same time frame as this: "Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." ?

Or did the 5th Trumpet sound between the two events given in Revelation 12? When was Jesus born in relationship to: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth." ?

Do we not have to take the whole of Scripture into consideration when interpreting Revelation 12? Revelation 12 is not a recap of the inter-advent period as you seem to insinuate. Revelation 12 includes ideas from the rebellion of Satan to the image of Daniel 2, and 5 earthly kingdoms or world empires starting with Babylon and ending at the Reformation. Obviously overlapping the OT and the NT. The Second Coming is not even implied to nor stated in Revelation 12. Revelation 13 is a follow up of that 7 headed dragon with a different angle of perception.

Satan is never said to have 7 dispensations of spiritual kingdoms. If you are against dispensational teaching, that would be ultra dispensational thought, beyond human government. We don't have to add to Revelation 12, we just continue to unravel this symbolism in Revelation 13 and in Revelation 17. We don't even have to force a Second Coming into chapters where the Second Coming would not belong in, to begin with. Yet you think John wants us to see 7 different views of the Second Coming in the book of Revelation.

Certainly one could attempt to place the Second Coming into Revelation 12, but obviously another may not agree on the placement as one is not purposely stated for clarity.

Revelation 12 is the only place something similar to a little season is given:

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

It is not even similar in thought nor context. The only thing similar is private interpretation of "short" and "little".

In Revelation 12 the context is the 3rd woe closely tied to the 7th Trumpet. Satan is not loosed from a pit, but cast out of heaven, so not the same context. The 1st woe is tied to the 5th Trumpet and releasing those rebel angels into the world. The 5th Trumpet and 7th Trumpet are not even the same event. The Trumpets and woes have to be your private interpretation added into the text of Revelation 20. Why would the earth need to have judgment after a thousand years of Jesus reigning over a regenerated earth?

There are multiple New Testament Scriptures to support the Amil position and the current binding of Satan. You must sidestep all these to sustain your own argument. Premil on the other hand has zero corroboration for its theory. That is damning for the doctrine. Scripture proves Satan was spiritually bound in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22), and negates Premil. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Revelation 9 also describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season.
 
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