Is America Becoming A Force For Evil In The World?
- Thread starter This Vale Of Tears
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I don't expect it to, but nations can either be a force for good or a force for evil in the world by how it uses its power, whether it's protecting the innocent or being a bully. We used to do the former, now we're doing more of the latter. We fly drones into nations with which we're not at war and say, "What are you going to do about it?" You're right that the Church's mission and the mission of nations are different, but in the context of what a good nation is supposed to do, America is falling short.Dodo_David said:
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Choir Loft
America is a force for good? Your expression of patriotism is blinded by fact and you ignore the masses of those in the world who are not American or European and who shout loud and long about what is wrong.* Yet 'patriots' ignore these warnings by holding fast to a Disney-ish view of a nation that does not and never did exist.tom55 said:
"It has been since I have prayed for justice on our country; I pray only for mercy. With all the light we have had and the results of the biblical influence, and then to have trampled on what we have had - we deserve God's judgment."
- Francis Schaeffer
The most highly decorated Marine Corps General in US history, Smedley D. Butler understood all too well the real nature of the US Marine Corps and US foreign policy in general when he concluded after his retirement in 1931 that;
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service, and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism."
The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault. To those ends, we will do a fair amount of killings.
- Major Ralph Peters
"The United States has always been a nation of ongoing hustlers from the prisons and disaster areas of old Europe. I do not think that the American System in its present state of decadence is worth preserving. The initial success of the United States was largely accidental. A rich empty continent was exploited by rapacious Europeans who made slaves of Africans and corpses of Indians in the process."
- GORE VIDAL
"Of course, it is possible for any citizen with time to spare, and a canny eye, to work out what is actually going on, but for the many there is not time, and the network news is the only news even though it may not be news at all but only a series of flashing fictions..."
- Gore Vidal
At the apex of every argument in support of a fantasy America lies allegiance to the flag and American exceptionalism.
"In the United States many churches display the American flag. The Christian flag is usually put on one side and the American flag on the other. Does having two flags in your church mean that Christianity and the American establishment are equal? If it does, you are really in trouble.
...Caesar is second to God. This must be preached and taught in sermons, Sunday school classes, and young people's groups...It must be taught that patriotic loyalty MUST NOT be identified with Christianity."
- Francis Schaeffer
Oddly, the atheist knows and understands the significance of the display of the flag over the cross in church. Christians seem to be blind to what stands before their very eyes every week in the assembly. If this is not proof and evidence of Christian embrace of political expediency over divine law and conscience then nothing will save Church, Inc. In fact, it may already be under divine judgment.
IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA THEN HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....
(*)Do you believe everything the government tells you?
Point is well taken. My only disagreement is your argument that we never were a good nation (saying it never did exist). I think we were and that WWII is the height of it; we did a really good thing there. But even then, the political expediency you spoke of was a factor. We were so eager to end the war with Japan quickly that we dropped highly destructive bombs on the most dense population centers in Japan. That means civilians and thousands of them. I still get sick when I hear Americans defending this action. We didn't choose a military target, and contrary to popular belief we weren't targeting factories making war munitions. Our choice was based on the density of civilian population, how we could kill as many Japs as we could.[email protected] said:
I understand you are probably not patriotic, however, America is the greatest nation in the world and is mostly a force for good. You posted many quotes from people who may dislike America, however, for every one quote you post that is, for a lack of better words, negative I can post two quotes that are positive. America is great because we are a deeply religious country. That is why the American flag hangs next to the Christian flag. That is why our Capitol is filled with religious symbols and religious text are quoted so often in our public/government writings and buildings. YOU can't change history with all your quotes and lack of a Disney-ish view of America. What country in the world is greater than America?
I think you'll agree with me that if America ceased being a force for good in the world, it would be by shades and degrees; so subtle as to even escape detection altogether. I believe that patriotism is a virtue when in tandem with a nation that does good, protects the innocent, and is not belligerent toward other countries. With the latest "Arab Spring" it's clear that we are supporting violent, evil factions, not those that would protect human rights and work toward peace. I understand that this happened because we have a radical and very evil president in office who serves the same devil that the Islamists serve. (!) But the lack of outcry against what we are doing abroad reveals a population in this country besotted by apathy or even actively supporting our malevolent role in world affairs today.tom55 said:
I don't contend with your wish that America stands as a paragon of virtue and freedom in the world. I share that wish. I only contend with your apparent thinking (and forgive me if I'm wrong) that it could never change.
This Vale Of Tears said:
I do not agree with you. If America ceased being a force for good it would leave the world open to those same evil factions that you mention. Tell me what country would step in and take our role? I agree with you that we have a radical president but EVIL? I don't know what is in his heart. Do you?
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Choir Loft
Here's a good question and one that deserves a good answer.tom55 said:
The question is "what country would step in and take our role?"
There are several answers to this question depending upon which facet of American imperialism one wishes to address.
"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with justice and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, 'You are too arrogant. If you don't change your ways I will rise up and break the back bone of your power.'"
- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. (circa 1967)
Whether by design or by default, Americans have come to believe the propaganda we've been swallowing since the Korean War - that USA is the sole arbiter of peace and justice in the world. The problem with absolute power, someone once said, is that it corrupts absolutely. And that's exactly what's happened to America.
Long ago and far away Imperial Rome served as the world's policeman, and judge and jury. The problem with that sort of concentrated power and finance is that it rapidly becomes corrupt. Sooner or later the corruption reaches a level of instability. Corruption does not act for the common good and in its end phase cannot act at all. In the end, that's why Rome fell and that's why the US is in a state of change. We are far from collapse as some believe, but we have definitely entered into a transition away from the common good into a fascist police state - autocratic support of an alliance between corporate influence and governmental executive power.
"If an American is concerned only about his nation, he will not be concerned about the peoples of Asia, Africa, or South America. Is this not why nations engage in the madness of war without the slightest sense of penitence? Is this not why the murder of a citizen of your own nation is a crime, but the murder of citizens of another nation in war is an act of heroic virtue? "
- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
A few months ago, the FUKUS alliance (France, UK and United States)* was poised to begin bombing the snot out of Asaad's Syrian army.
What country would step in and take the role of peace maker, to lead the way to deescalation, to make an attempt to stop the killing? Oddly it wasn't America. It was Russia. Think I'm wrong? Think again. Where are the stories that once infuriated Americans who called for war upon Syria - a country that did no harm to us? Where is the war mongering in Washington that only a few weeks ago was red hot with murderous desire to wage war from the land, sea and air against Syria? It is gone and if the level of rhetoric in the media is any barometer, things have quieted down considerably. Where is the self-righteous concern Americans once voiced over coffee and in the forums? It's gone because the reasons for war have been removed not by American force of arms but by the peaceful maneuvers of Russia.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Putin fan by a long shot, but I am a realist and I do pay attention to the motivations and maneuvers of nations. As it turned out Britain and France are now heavily dependent upon Russian natural gas. A year ago Russia threatened to switch it off unless Europe agreed to pay a higher rate. Europe refused and Russia screwed down the valves. Europe hollered for a while and then caved. A few weeks ago Britain and France were ready to go to war against Syria, a Russian client state.
A few phone calls were made from the Kremlin and Britain and France took their military toys and went home leaving the US holding the bag as it were. Russia persuaded Asaad to give up all his chemical weapons (or at least make a show of it) and in a private conversation with Mr. Kerry suggested that America should take her toys and go home too - which we did. By the way have you noticed that there have been no further demands to inspect Syria for chemical weapons? In fact, there have been no demands of any kind whatsoever.
Like it or not Russia won a war with Britain, France and America this past summer. And they did it without firing a shot. That's historic boys and girls. Whether you like it or not something incredible happened this past summer - and it wasn't the American eagle that orchestrated it. It was the Russian Bear. Think I'm happy about that? Think again.
As the dust clears the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which is the true manipulative power behind all that has gone on, is now inflamed against America. They had hoped the US would furnish their puppet army and propaganda to enable their ultimate victory against Shiite Islam. Instead Riyadh, Doha and the GCC have been caught squatting in the sand with their pants down wondering how they will proceed. One thing is certain. They will not allow oil prices for America to remain low. Hold onto your wallets folks. Crude oil production will be scaled back and it's price will go up. Mark my words. That's what happens when you lose a war.
So let me ask a question now. What role did America play on the world stage? Certainly not an altruistic one, that's for sure. American hegemony, imperial economic power, is waning and the Syrian debacle this past summer does not bode well for future American leadership. A new power is rising and it has flexed its economic muscle, proving that money trumps cruise missiles and stealth bombers. In the end it's all about power and money. America is losing hers and other nations are assuming the mantle of leadership.
"Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall...
and all the King's horses and all the King's men...
Couldn't put Humpty together again."
- nursery rhyme
The America I remember as a child, and which may never have really ever existed, has passed into history - both fantasy and reality alike. I fear we will never see anything like it again. It's coming apart at the seams and I do not like what I see. And I think I have a lot of company in that regard.
Those who have known freedom and lost it have never known it again.
- Ronald Reagan 01/05/67
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) The acronym originated in the European press and is commonly used to refer to American meddling in the Levant/Near East. If it is offensive for some to read I may add that it illustrates perfectly the now common view of America by people not hypnotized by the Stars and Stripes. It is how America is perceived and it is not pretty.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Speaking as an outsider who has visited the USA, I have nothing but admiration for the people of America. I was there for six weeks and had nothing but welcome brother, we are so glad you are here. The people were polite, friendly, helpful and accomodating.
If I wasn't married to an Australian, I would be over like a shot to live there.
I have studied the American history a bit and you don't get to to be the greatest nation on earth if you were not doing something right. You have achieved in a few centuries what other nations have never achieved.
Satan is obviously attacking you because if you fall, the forces of evil take over in the form of atheism, homosexuality and islam.
Like all those who are under attack, you have no choice but to put the armour of God on and go into battle because this battle is the mother of all battles and will make Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam seem insignificant.
It is difficult to do this if you are fighting one another, so unite and have a Christian Mardi Gras in every town in America for a start to let people see your unity because their is ALWAYS strength in unity. Celebrate your faith in public.
Those in big churches, give away some of your expertise to smaller churches to enable ALL the churches to grow in each town and so that the tide can rise for all of them.
And most importantly, all the churches in every town should come together once a month for a day of prayer. Start with your young people as they are not so rusted on to tradition.
And finally, why were you so stupid to vote Obama back into office?
If I wasn't married to an Australian, I would be over like a shot to live there.
I have studied the American history a bit and you don't get to to be the greatest nation on earth if you were not doing something right. You have achieved in a few centuries what other nations have never achieved.
Satan is obviously attacking you because if you fall, the forces of evil take over in the form of atheism, homosexuality and islam.
Like all those who are under attack, you have no choice but to put the armour of God on and go into battle because this battle is the mother of all battles and will make Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam seem insignificant.
It is difficult to do this if you are fighting one another, so unite and have a Christian Mardi Gras in every town in America for a start to let people see your unity because their is ALWAYS strength in unity. Celebrate your faith in public.
Those in big churches, give away some of your expertise to smaller churches to enable ALL the churches to grow in each town and so that the tide can rise for all of them.
And most importantly, all the churches in every town should come together once a month for a day of prayer. Start with your young people as they are not so rusted on to tradition.
And finally, why were you so stupid to vote Obama back into office?
marksman,
Thank you for your compliments of our great country. I believe that satan is attacking the religious and morale fiber of this country and his focus is on our politicians/government. I was shocked when President Obama was voted back into office. I understood how he got into office on the first election, however, once the people could see who he really was I honestly didn't think he would be re-elected. God willing we will have big changes in 2016. I don't necessarily mean a republican but a God fearing person who will work for ALL citizens.
Thank you for your compliments of our great country. I believe that satan is attacking the religious and morale fiber of this country and his focus is on our politicians/government. I was shocked when President Obama was voted back into office. I understood how he got into office on the first election, however, once the people could see who he really was I honestly didn't think he would be re-elected. God willing we will have big changes in 2016. I don't necessarily mean a republican but a God fearing person who will work for ALL citizens.
Yes I do. It isn't a mystery. There's a man who lives in squalor in Kenya, living in dire poverty in a shanty town that is prevalent for housing in most African nations. And his brother is the president of the United States, a millionaire several times over. This is just one of many examples of how cold hearted this man is; a very uncharitable man. I wasn't duped by Obama even from the beginning. I saw what he was with my thousand-yard-stare and everything he did while in office demonstrates the cold, empty void in his heart.tom55 said:
President Obama is an evil man and he serves his father, the devil.
[email protected]
Choir Loft
More than a few righteous in America?laid renard said:Not just America, the whole world. End times remember ?
Much like medical science. Where once it's goal was to help humanity, has now succumbed to the almighty dollar.
I read that many physicians who come from well to do families, since they could afford to do so, and despite all the time and hard work, quit after only a short while in their dream career, do to the fact that it was not what they thought it would be. One doctor said that it was not about medicine, but about business, and that the pharmaceutical companies were in control.
End times. All we can do is pray and get closer to God.
Do you mean judge America to the extreme He did them ?
Cause God said He would spare them for just a few righteous.
And there is quite more than just a few righteous in America.
This is an example of a type of the ugly philosophy of American Exceptionalism that has crept into our collective attitude.
America can't be judged by God because:
- We're too big to fail. (so was the Roman Empire and the Soviet Union)
- We're exceptional and the best folks on earth (so were the Germans in 1930's & 40's)
- Our economy and military are the biggest and best in history (what happened to Alexander the Great?)
- We are the righteous of God (read Biblical chronicle of the division of Israel and the diaspora)
And then of course there is the testimony of history itself. America is not and never has been the shining lamp we like to tell ourselves it is. Ask any non-white person and they'll express an entirely different opinion. The fantasy of an exceptional America is mostly a white man's fantasy. Reality is somewhat different. We are long past due for a reality check.....
"the United States has always been a nation of ongoing hustlers from the prisons and disaster areas of old Europe. I do not think that the American System in its present state of decadence is worth preserving. The initial success of the United States was largely accidental. A rich empty continent was exploited by rapacious Europeans who made slaves of Africans and corpses of Indians in the process."
- GORE VIDAL
Mr. Vidal said the American system wasn't worth preserving. I submit it's already gone. Most folks today refuse to acknowledge the fact that we are now witness to the decay, rot and decomposition of the American Empire. All the things we see happening today from civic violence, military war crimes, economic uncertainty and political corruption leading to lack of decisive leadership is evidence of a dying empire. Our currency isn't based upon gold or manufacturing, it's based upon debt. The great struggle in the market places of today and in the near future are wars of currency (and the renminbi is winning over the dollar). The end of the struggle will not portend well for America.
If God did not spare His own chosen people Israel and if God did not spare every other empire of history, God WILL NOT spare America for its crimes and for turning its collective back upon the Almighty. The trend in America is to deny and even despise God and the cross of Christ. You cannot in truth deny the evidence of your own eyes and ears. The depravity of the human heart is the core of all sin, yet America believes otherwise.
You cannot save a nation or rebuild an empire when your presuppositions are based upon lies.
Did God spare German Christians the national disaster of losing a war? No. Did God spare Confederate Christians the national disaster of losing the Civil War? No, certainly not. Despite their personal salvation all had backed a wicked form of government and all paid the price along with their heathen fellow citizens.
So shall we.
It remains for those of us who follow Christ to reexamine ourselves and our walk with Him, to redouble our efforts of devotion, and to pray for deliverance from the judgment which is to come - which possibly is already working among us.
IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
"If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide"
Abraham Lincoln, Jan. 27, 1837
Abraham Lincoln, Jan. 27, 1837
This Vale Of Tears said:
That is a strong statement. I pray that you are wrong but if you are right then it must be in God's plan. Live each day as if it is the last day.
At the risk of offending those on this sight, let's compare Obama to Hitler.This Vale Of Tears said:
I've read a book called "Hitler's Beneficiaries" by German historian Gotz Aly. In the book Gotz points out that Hitler used Big government and the entitlement society as a means to wage war. Hitler noted that during World War 1, the populace had an uprising because of the wartime conditions of economic hardship. To thwart a repeating of history, he made sure that the average German lived well, so much so, that the average German lived better than those in Allied nations during the war. In fact, Germany had the first mandated health insurance requirement in the world. Sound familiar?
Gotz does not come out and say it, but the implication is there none the less. The war weary German people looked the other way when it came to world conquest and genocide, all because of the money. Hitler stole from Jews and conquered territories and heavily taxed the top 4% of the German wealthy. Sound familiar? In fact, taxing the top 4% was not so much to bring in revenue as it was to please the populace who enjoyed the notion that they had to pay more in taxes. It was done more to gain the support of the populace.
It turns out that Jews were noting more than a revenue source for Hitler. What Hitler would do when he conquered territories such as France, was to create banks and start printing money the German soldiers were given so they could go buy merchandise from the conquered people. Naturally this led to inflation and near collapse. Hitler would then tell the puppet governments to round up the Jews and take their gold and valuable to help ward off economic collapse, and then would then transport the Jews to concentration camps. It worked.
Hitler also drove up the national debt, so much so, that in 1935 he forbade the German government from passing budgets so as not to arouse the concern of the populace. Sound familiar? It has even been suggested that Germany was on such dangerous footing economically, that they had to attack in 1939 or face economic implosion.
But the comparisons don't even end there. The Nazi regime was concerned about the environment and animal rights. They created the first national parks in Europe and put both animals and plants on endangered lists. They even passed the most stringent laws on using animals for experimentation and sent those who did to concentration camps. The thought of creating a dam for hydroelectric power was too repulsive to consider for Hitler who viewed such as an attack on nature.
Did I mention that they were the first nation to implement gun control? That's right, they rounded up the guns and took them from the populace.
Of course, the piece of the pie that is missing is genocide, right? Well not if you count abortions ranging to around 50 million and counting in the US. Again, it is all in the name of the almighty dollar. Evidence shows that most women have abortions due to financial concerns, just in the same way the Jews were targeted for their financial assets.
You may then say that Hitler was determined to take over the world militarily and Obama is not. Well the US has troops in over 70 countries around the world, not even Hitler could boast that. And we know that Obama invaded Libya and wanted to go into Syria before the war weary populace rose up to stop him. I just wonder when they will take Syria out. My guess is that the project is on hold.
We're bound to find parallels between Adolf Hitler and Barack Obama for the simple reason that they both serve the same dark lord. Jesus spoke about the unity and cooperation by which the demonic realm operates when he asked, "How can Satan cast out Satan?" And then he laid out the absurdity that there's dissent in the ranks of fallen angels. People who cringe at Obama being compared to Hitler or Obama being animated by Satan simply haven't been reading the Bible. Satan boasted to Jesus that he owns the kingdoms of the earth, and today is no different than that day 2000 years ago. That doesn't mean that every U.S. president was been an unwitting servant of the devil, but it does mean that presidents can be and this one certainly is as well. Where I'm careful about the comparisons is how they're used and in what context. For instance, the Left points out that Hitler outlawed abortion, trying to pin him to conservatives. But the truth is, Hitler only outlawed abortions among white non-Jewish Germans so that Germany would have the population base by which to maintain global presence. Obama is evil, but not the worst president in U.S. history by far and in fact I can think of 3 that were far worse. That's where my discomfort begins is when Obama is compared to a man far more evil than he is. A more apropos comparison for Hitler might be Abraham Lincoln who had connections with the radical German Nationalists that fled Germany and came to America in 1848. It's why I refer to him as Herr Lincoln Uber Alles. Both men caused deliberate wars that killed hundreds of thousands of men.
Dear [email protected],
Sorry, the quote feature is not working for me at the moment for some reason.
You replied to me :
"God WILL NOT spare America for its crimes and for turning its collective back upon the Almighty."
The point I was making in my original post can be found in the key word you yourself used in this statement. "Collectively."
Yes, I believe that there are more than a few righteous in America.
When I first believed, I took on the righteousness of Christ. For mine are as filthy rags. But, praise God, I now have His.
But I also believe that God has removed some (but not all) of His protective hand from us. I just don't think that we will face total and utter annihilation as Sodom and Gomorrah did.
God Bless ~
Sorry, the quote feature is not working for me at the moment for some reason.
You replied to me :
"God WILL NOT spare America for its crimes and for turning its collective back upon the Almighty."
The point I was making in my original post can be found in the key word you yourself used in this statement. "Collectively."
Yes, I believe that there are more than a few righteous in America.
When I first believed, I took on the righteousness of Christ. For mine are as filthy rags. But, praise God, I now have His.
But I also believe that God has removed some (but not all) of His protective hand from us. I just don't think that we will face total and utter annihilation as Sodom and Gomorrah did.
God Bless ~
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