Is belief in the existence of God irrational?

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't the bible say that Christianity is foolishness to the outside observer.

How then do I demonstrate that it's rational to the those who's rationale tells them it is foolishness.

You don't.
How do you demonstrate God's existence.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit is like the wind....
you don't see the wind...
but you see it's effects.

Christianity is based on reason.
If I get an alert for this tomorrow morning,
I'd like to go through this thread...

Good night.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

You don't.
How do you demonstrate God's existence.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit is like the wind....
you don't see the wind...
but you see it's effects.

Christianity is based on reason.
If I get an alert for this tomorrow morning,
I'd like to go through this thread...

Good night.

ahh u rewind it man!! the 1st part of dat was good!! it shouldn't be about alerts, it should be about spreading the word, plus its more dan using reasoning, atheist would say the same thing, its about them denying the undeniable, how can u claim 2 know anything without God?

 

[OzSpen]

is it irrational 2 think dat the universe came from nothing!!

What is your view?

 

[GodsGrace]

"Is belief in the existence of God irrational? These days, many famous scientists are also strong proponents of atheism. However, in the past, and even today, many scientists believe that God exists and is responsible for what we see in nature?" This quote is the following Web site: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html. How do you demonstrate that Christianity is rational?

The link doesn't work...not that I would have read the whole thing.

How one demonstrates that Christianity is rational..
TO SOMEONE THAT WANTS TO LISTEN....
is the same way one show that John Kennedy's death is rational.

2,000 years go by and this is asked of Kennedy's assassination.
So how do you know it was true and rational?
How could he have been shot with all that protection around him?
Doesn't seem possible.

This is how: What will be found is journalists writings of his death, and books written about his death and method of death.

Aside from the fact that film did not exist 2,000 years ago at the time of Jesus,,,everything else is the same.

We have writings about His death and we have books about His death.

So what it comes down to is this:
Can we trust the writings? For example of Josephus.
Can we trust the books? For example the gospels.

Were the Apostles a trustworthy bunch...
or did they make up their own religion and die horrible deaths to protect it?

Christianity is reasonable because we can trust the Apostles that wrote about Jesus and what His story was.

 

[GodsGrace]

ahh u rewind it man!! the 1st part of dat was good!! it shouldn't be about alerts, it should be about spreading the word, plus its more dan using reasoning, atheist would say the same thing, its about them denying the undeniable, how can u claim 2 know anything without God?

Amen!
The very sciences they study were made by God.
Some scientists are coming to realize that our human make up,,,our DNA,,,is too complicated to have come about by chance, as Darwin put forth.

 

[Giuliano]

Ha, what if there is no reality independent of the observer? What if logic isn't valid? What if locality fails?

Bell's Theorem

Go ahead, assume that the universe is real. Assume that logic is valid. Assume everything is local. Science says all three can't be true.

 

[OzSpen]

"Is belief in the existence of God irrational? These days, many famous scientists are also strong proponents of atheism. However, in the past, and even today, many scientists believe that God exists and is responsible for what we see in nature?" This quote is the following Web site: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html. How do you demonstrate that Christianity is rational?

Daniel,

Could this link take you to the topic? Evidence for God from Science

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Kepha and OzSpen,

I just read with great interest both your articles just now. I appreciate what Professor John Lennox says on the short 10 minute video OzSpen points to in the above post. For example, (1) the Christian World View provided the logical background for the rise of science; (2) science answers the why questions of the material world but cannot answer the questions related to intentions of what exists; (3) science now admits that there was a beginning to all things, this they do since the 1960s through what they call the big bang theory, which is a way of naming a mystery; (4) the discovery that the DNA in the structure of life, involving extremely long DNA words, which from a mathematical perspective is hard to explain apart from some intelligence behind it; (5) new atheism's purpose of destroying all religion consider that the best way to do it is through the science culture present in every part of the world; (6) there are rational alternatives to atheism, especially since atheism is not what it might seem to be at first sight.

God bless!

Comment regarding number 3....

Science had always stated that the universe always existed...somehow, in the mind of science, this removed the problem of how it got here.

Then it became accepted that the universe did, indeed, have a beginning. The Big Bang...kind of like Let There Be Light.

Now the question becomes HOW did this happen? What existed BEFORE the big bang? Seems science can only go back so far and is now unable to go back any farther.

Looks like maybe something was made from nothing...a scientific impossibility.
But is it? Perhaps something COULD come from nothing!

And so we now have prominent scientists trying to prove this idea.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

What is your view?

God created all things without him nothing can exist

 

[OzSpen]

Comment regarding number 3....

Science had always stated that the universe always existed...somehow, in the mind of science, this removed the problem of how it got here.

Then it became accepted that the universe did, indeed, have a beginning. The Big Bang...kind of like Let There Be Light.

Now the question becomes HOW did this happen? What existed BEFORE the big bang? Seems science can only go back so far and is now unable to go back any farther.

Looks like maybe something was made from nothing...a scientific impossibility.
But is it? Perhaps something COULD come from nothing!

And so we now have prominent scientists trying to prove this idea.

GodsGrace,

My understanding is that science works with the WHAT of the universe. e.g. How to examine atoms and molecules; examine best ways to thin my blood and the easiest ways to stop the flow when I start bleeding badly (I take a daily dose of warfarin).

However, the Trinitarian God gives us the HOW and WHY of the universe - including God's purpose for creation - in Scripture.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace,

My understanding is that science works with the WHAT of the universe. e.g. How to examine atoms and molecules; examine best ways to thin my blood and the easiest ways to stop the flow when I start bleeding badly (I take a daily dose of warfarin).

However, the Trinitarian God gives us the HOW and WHY of the universe - including God's purpose for creation - in Scripture.

Oz

Absolutely.
Not only that, but I'd say that science is getting closer and closer to what the O.T. proclaims even though it was written thousands of years ago.

The O.T. always proclaimed that God CREATED the universe...it was science that used to say it always existed.

Some very prominent scientists are beginning to speak up about God being the intelligence behind the creation.

 

[Taken]

"Is belief in the existence of God irrational?

Yes.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[OzSpen]

Yes.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken,

Really?

Irrational means something is 'done or happening without clear or sensible reasons' (Macmillan Dictionary 2019. s.v. irrational). So, are you saying that God's actions in our world are unreasonable, wrong, extreme, absurd or perverse. All of these are synonyms of irrational.

Therefore, in your understanding, are you saying that when God states the following he is being irrational in his actions?

The heavens proclaim the glory of God.
The skies display his craftsmanship.
2 Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make him known.
3 They speak without a sound or word;
their voice is never heard.
4 Yet their message has gone throughout the earth,
and their words to all the world.
God has made a home in the heavens for the sun.
5 It bursts forth like a radiant bridegroom after his wedding.
It rejoices like a great athlete eager to run the race.
6 The sun rises at one end of the heavens
and follows its course to the other end.
Nothing can hide from its heat (Ps 19:1-6 NLT).

Oz

 

[Taken]

Taken,

Really?

The question was:

"Is belief in the existance of God irrational?"

My answer was: Yes.

The question was about a persons BELIEF.
The question WAS NOT, about HOW one "determines" or "arrives" at Belief.

Irrational means something is 'done or happening without clear or sensible reasons' (Macmillan Dictionary 2019. s.v. irrational). So, are you saying that God's actions in our world are unreasonable, wrong, extreme, absurd or perverse. All of these are synonyms of irrational.

I said nothing about "Gods ACTIONS".

Therefore, in your understanding, are you saying that when God states the following he is being irrational in his actions?

The question was ABOUT "A Persons" Belief IN GOD...
The question was NOT ABOUT Gods Actions, nor did I say it was.

The heavens proclaim the glory of God.
The skies display his craftsmanship.
2 Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make him known.
3 They speak without a sound or word;
their voice is never heard.
4 Yet their message has gone throughout the earth,
and their words to all the world.
God has made a home in the heavens for the sun.
5 It bursts forth like a radiant bridegroom after his wedding.
It rejoices like a great athlete eager to run the race.
6 The sun rises at one end of the heavens
and follows its course to the other end.
Nothing can hide from its heat (Ps 19:1-6 NLT).
Oz

Rational is based ON, "LOGIC".
Mans "LOGIC" is based On a mans MIND, thinking, and weighing options, and concluding.

Is it RATIONAL for a mans MIND to LOGICALLY Conclude, SOMETHING they "can not" SEE, HEAR, TOUCH, SMELL, TASTE..."EXISTS"?

The Answer is No.

The Result is; a Mans "MIND", IS NOT equipped to come to a "conclusion", that God Exists.

The Scriptural Conclusion IS:

Rom 8
[7]...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Point being, Even God Himself Knows it is IRRATIONAL / NOT LOGICAL for a mans MIND to conclude Gods existance.

The heavens proclaim Gods Glory...

The Question was about a mans BELIEF...in Gods Existance.
Not Gods Actions...
Not Gods Glory

The NEXT question IS: (which was NOT asked, nor DID I answer)
IS:
How DID God Solve the Dilemma of MANS CARNAL MIND, being AGAINST HIM?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[OzSpen]

The question was:

"Is belief in the existance of God irrational?"

My answer was: Yes.

The question was about a persons BELIEF.
The question WAS NOT, about HOW one "determines" or "arrives" at Belief.

I said nothing about "Gods ACTIONS".

The question was ABOUT "A Persons" Belief IN GOD...
The question was NOT ABOUT Gods Actions, nor did I say it was.

Rational is based ON, "LOGIC".
Mans "LOGIC" is based On a mans MIND, thinking, and weighing options, and concluding.

Is it RATIONAL for a mans MIND to LOGICALLY Conclude, SOMETHING they "can not" SEE, HEAR, TOUCH, SMELL, TASTE..."EXISTS"?

The Answer is No.

The Result is; a Mans "MIND", IS NOT equipped to come to a "conclusion", that God Exists.

The Scriptural Conclusion IS:

Rom 8
[7]...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Point being, Even God Himself Knows it is IRRATIONAL / NOT LOGICAL for a mans MIND to conclude Gods existance.

The Question was about a mans BELIEF...in Gods Existance.
Not Gods Actions...
Not Gods Glory

The NEXT question IS: (which was NOT asked, nor DID I answer)
IS:
How DID God Solve the Dilemma of MANS CARNAL MIND, being AGAINST HIM?

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken,

Was it rational for God to state through the logic of sentences of Scripture that:

'But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God' (Rom 1:18-20 NLT).​

Is it rational or irrational for God to state that people can know 'the truth about God' by examining the created world (earth and sky). This creation demonstrates God's 'eternal power and divine nature'. Is this a rational statement?

God says this is enough evidence of the existence of God so people 'have no excuse for not knowing God'.

Who is the one being irrational?

Oz

P.S. Existence is not spelled existance. You might like to check a dictionary. See: The Merriam-Webster Dictionary 2019.

 

[Taken]

Taken,

Was it rational for God to state through the logic of sentences of Scripture that:

'But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God' (Rom 1:18-20 NLT).​

Is it rational or irrational for God to state that people can know 'the truth about God' by examining the created world (earth and sky). This creation demonstrates God's 'eternal power and divine nature'. Is this a rational statement?

Hi Oz ~

I do not compare what is "RATIONAL" or "IRRATIONAL" Between God and men.

Men THINK with their MIND;
Men THINK of "OPTIONS". (This or that).
Men "WEIGH" their "OPTIONS".
Men "LOGICALLY" conclude ONE OPTION over another OPTION seems the most "CORRECT" or "VIABLE" OPTION to choose.

God IS "TRUTH". HIS WAY, is ALWAYS the "CORRECT" and "VIABLE" WAY, and the WAY a man SHOULD CHOOSE, for the CORRECT outcome...(which by default, eliminates, a mans MINDFUL, guessing between "this" and "that").

God says this is enough evidence of the existence of God so people 'have no excuse for not knowing God'.

Correct.

God isn't telling mankind, to Logically Guess and see what works out for you.

God DOES SAY:
He DECLARED .... Spoke (HIS WORD) and His Power (SPIRIT), cause what He SPOKE to come to pass.

And mankind, CAN HEAR, READ, LISTEN, LEARN, what GOD "SAID" and mankind can "SEE" that what God SAID, CAME TO pass.

It is NOT about mankind "weighing between options", but rather LEARNING what God said, Looking about, and SEEING what God said EXISTS....and mankind being "REASONABLE" to Believe...ONE THING;
WHAT GOD SAID, has come to pass.
(And Trusting, ALL He said "SHALL come to pass")

P.S. Existence is not spelled existance. You might like to check a dictionary.

P.S. If you want to start a Spelling Thread, go ahead. That is of no interest to me. It is challenging enough for me to respond from my phone, unlike the convenience and ease of a computer and keyboard.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[shnarkle]

"Is belief in the existence of God irrational? These days, many famous scientists are also strong proponents of atheism. However, in the past, and even today, many scientists believe that God exists and is responsible for what we see in nature?" This quote is the following Web site: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html. How do you demonstrate that Christianity is rational?

Belief in the existence of a transcendent God is irrational because a transcendent God cannot objectively exist. Any lesser gods aren't worthy of the title. That is what makes Christianity rational, but when Christians insist on the existence of lesser gods, it doesn't make much sense.

 

[OzSpen]

Belief in the existence of a transcendent God is irrational because a transcendent God cannot objectively exist. Any lesser gods aren't worthy of the title. That is what makes Christianity rational, but when Christians insist on the existence of lesser gods, it doesn't make much sense.

So what do these verses mean in relation to the transcendent God? Are they irrational?

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God (Rom 1:18-20 NLT).​

 

[Scoop666]

Daniel,

How can it be irrational when there is a stack of evidence around us. Let's start with where Paul told us to begin in Romans 1:18-32 (ESV):

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonouring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonourable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who practise such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practise them.

On the basis of the evidence around us in creation, those who reject this knowledge are the irrational ones. One of the reasons we have people who live all kinds of unrighteous lives is because they reject this evidence.

Have you listened to any of the YouTube interviews, etc. with leading scientist and professor of mathematics at Oxford University, Prof John Lennox? Only last night I was viewing his debate with leading atheist/agnostic Prof Richard Dawkins, also of Oxford University. Let's see if we can pick up one of the discussions with Prof John Lennox.

See this Aussie, Greg Clark's, interview with Prof John Lennox on 'God's Undertaker: Has science buried God?'. This is based on Lennox's book.

That should get us started.

Blessings,
Oz

I don’t exactly understand how you came to the conclusion that the universe and everything in it is evidence of God. It seems to me that there are a multitude of possible explanations for the existence of the cosmos, and so far you’ve failed to provide evidence as to why the Christian God is the only explanation for existence. Could you please elaborate on how exactly you came to this conclusion?

thanks in advance!

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]