Is believing/faith a work ?

[mailmandan]

1) Noah built the ark IN ORDER to be saved from the flood not BECAUSE he was already saved from the flood
2) Naaman dipped in the river IN ORDER to recievf healing not BECAUSE he was already healed
3) The blind man went and washed his eyes IN ORDER to receive his sight not BECAUSE he already had his sight
4) The Jew repented & were baptized IN ORDER to receive remission of sins not BECAUSE they already had remission of sins.

The above examples are from the Bible and show that God's free gift came with a condition God Himself attached and commanded the condition be met BEFORE receiving the free gift. This means receiving the free gift had to be done on God's terms not man's terms (faith onlyism). And not in any case was a person(s) obedience in meeting the necessary condition ever called a work of merit whereby the free gift was earned. This is what you avoid and continue to avoid for it exposes the fallacies of faith onlyism and why your argument dies here.

Example of your avoiding the issue. You posted:
"Yes, Naaman dipped in the river Jordan 7 times in order to recieve healing from leprosy, but not in order to receive remission of sins."

NOTHING was said about Naaman receiving remission of sins, you simply avoided the point, that point being Naaman's free gift of healing came with a condition attached in dipping 7 times in the river. Here is what you are trying hard to avoid: His obedience in dipping was necessary to meet God's terms in order to receive the free gift of healing. His obedience in dipping was not a work of merit, it earned him nothing and that obedience must come BEFORE receiving the free gift. You pull this same avoidance routine with the blind man when you posted "Yes, the blind man washed his eyes in order to receive his sight and not in order to receive eternal life." Again NOTHING was said about washing his eyes would bring him eternal life but you posted this to avoid that his obedience in dipping was necessary to meet God's term to receive the free gift of sight and his obedience was not a work of merit, it earned him nothing and obedience must happen BEFORE reception of the free gift.
The same is true with salvation, God has put conditions upon the free gift of salvation (belief Jn 3:16 repentance Lk 13:3 confession Mt 10:32-33 and baptism Mk 16:16) and obedience in meeting these conditions does not earn salvation no more than Naaman's dipping or the blind man washing his eyes earned them their free gift. Simply because salvation requires conditions be met is NO DIFFERENT than the other examples that require conditions be met. Not in any of the 4 cases I cited was obedience in meeting the condition(s) said to be a work of merit whereby the free gift was earned, not in any case is obedience called a work of merit nor in any case a condition being attached by God meant the free gift was not free, not of grace.


You try and mix baptisms. Acts 2:38 is the baptism of the great commission that commanded those Jew meet 2 conditions repent & be baptized IN ORDER to receive remission of sins not BECAUSE they already had remission of sins. Matt 3:11 is John's baptism that was different from the baptism of Acts 2:38.

I posted Jn 6:27 where Jesus Himself required one WORK for the spiritual food that endure unto everlasting life which Christ GIVES. Christ GIVES eternal life hence eternal life is a free gift but CHRIST - NOT ME - put the condition that one work for the spiritual food in order to recevei the free gift of eternal life. How do you respond to this iirefutable proof eternal life requires one to WORK for spiritual food that endures unto everlasting life? You responded by posting "That's all you understand is work, work, work, meet conditions, meet conditions, meet conditions because you teach salvation by works and remain blinded from the truth. (1 Corinthians 2:14)" Again you 1) attacked me rather than dealing with the verse 2) I did not say the words of Jn 6:27, Christ did so evidently work work work is all Christ's understands.

Overall you did what I expected..... you either completely avoided dealing with the issues as with Jn 6:27 you tried to restate the argument in a wrong way like saying Naaman's dipping was not for remission of sins when that was never the point.

==============

God's grace hath appeared to all men therefore if salvation has no conditions attached to it at all then all men would be saved and that would be Universalism. You responded by posting "The grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men." (Yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's free gift of eternal life through faith)." You admit conditions are attached to salvation and that men must "accept" God's free gift.
The facts you will not admit to is that men accept that free gift by obediently meeting the conditions GOD Himself placed upon His free gift and meeting the conditions is a WORK as Christ called it and that WORK as Christ called it does not make obedience in meeting the condition a work of merit nor take away the free-ness of the gift nor did obediently meeting God's condition put God in a position where He owed man.

I already thoroughly explained all of this to you, but unfortunately, I can see that you just don't have ears to hear and there is a reason for that. See 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 and 2 Corinthians 4:3,4.

 

[brightfame52]

You avoid dealing with the facts presented....again.


Noah moved with fear built an ark (necessary condition) unto the saving of his house (free gift of God).
Naaman dipped 7 times in the Jordan (necessary condition) in order to be healed of his disease (free gift of God)
The blind man was told to go wash his eyes in the pool (necessary condition) in order to reveive his sight (free gift of God)
The Jews were commanded to repent & be baptized (necessary condition) for the remission of sins (free gift of God)

The Bible is not 'spurious' when it shows God attaching a necessary condition that must be met before one can receive the free gift.

Again all your points are spurious in order to justify salvation by works !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Logically speaking, is God bound by man's logic? Wherefrom came the logic which man applies?
Does logic dictate faith in God alone?
Does logic dictate the necessity of works?

Should we then put God in a box which we [men] have defined by logical understanding of the scriptures we read and make that our AT [Absolute Truth]?

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face." Psalm 5:8

Help us dear Lord to follow You as You lead us!

Hi,

I don't know if this post was meant for me or not but I will give my thoughts on it.

Man obviously cannot put God in a box but God has, in a sense, put man in a box for if man has any desire to be saved then man must meet the parameters, meet the terms and conditions God has put upon His gift of salvation. Obtaining salvation is not a free-for-all where man creates his own terms and conditions in order to be saved, as you cited youself 'it is not in man that walketh to direct his own steps'.

Paul clearly points out that there is just "one faith" and "one body" (Eph 4:4-5) and a reason there are many religious groups is due to man trying to set his own terms and conditions rather than following God's terms and condition. The result of man setting his own terms and condtins is contradictions abound from group to group.......major, mutually exclusive, sinful contradictions abound and there is no logic, NO TRUTH in those contradictions, those illogical contradictions did not come from God but man.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I already thoroughly explained all of this to you, but unfortunately, I can see that you just don't have ears to hear and there is a reason for that. See 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 and 2 Corinthians 4:3,4.

You avoid dealing with the facts again.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Again all your points are spurious in order to justify salvation by works !

Repeating this same statement continues to prove nothing for it has no Biblical, logical facts supporting it.

 

[brightfame52]

Repeating this same statement continues to prove nothing for it has no Biblical, logical facts supporting it.

Salvation is by Grace apart from works friend !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation is by Grace apart from works friend !

Apart from works of merit (EPh 2:8-9) apart from works of the OT law (Rom 4:5) not apart from obedience to God (Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16-18) for no one was ever saved while continuing to live in difiance, rebellion, disobedience to God's will...no one.

 

[brightfame52]

Apart from works of merit (EPh 2:8-9) apart from works of the OT law (Rom 4:5) not apart from obedience to God (Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16-18) for no one was ever saved while continuing to live in difiance, rebellion, disobedience to God's will...no one.

Again Salvation is apart from works, its Grace. And dont get it twisted, if you make any work the condition you met to get God to save you, its merit, or a wage and you have denied Grace.

 

[mailmandan]

You avoid dealing with the facts again.

I have already dealt with your "alledged" facts multiple times. You dont teach facts, but Campbell soup theology.

 

[Gottservant]

This is works !

I said the salvation saves you, the works justify you.

Because you are saved, you want to be justified.

I didn't say "you have to do the works now", but at some point you will want to do the works.

 

[Gottservant]

This is works !

I should clarify: the downpayment on your works, is paid in addition to your salvation.

Ask the Holy Spirit "has anything been done to start my works for Christ off?"

That's why mature Christians emphasize the priority of works; we don't want to waste what we've been given.

 

[brightfame52]

I said the salvation saves you, the works justify you.

Because you are saved, you want to be justified.

I didn't say "you have to do the works now", but at some point you will want to do the works.

This is works !

 

[Gottservant]

This is works !

"His reward is with Him" (Revelation)

What is "His reward"? Is it not in part the first of His works, already done?

If you can copy Christ, is not your reward (in part the first of your works) also with you?

 

[Gottservant]

This is works !

What do you think happens at the Great White Throne Judgment? That we compare our faith?

In part yes, but also in part our works!

Stir up the gift that is in you! Part of it is already complete!

 

[amadeus]

Hi,

I don't know if this post was meant for me or not but I will give my thoughts on it.

No, it was to anyone reading the thread.

Man obviously cannot put God in a box but God has, in a sense, put man in a box for if man has any desire to be saved then man must meet the parameters, meet the terms and conditions God has put upon His gift of salvation. Obtaining salvation is not a free-for-all where man creates his own terms and conditions in order to be saved, as you cited youself 'it is not in man that walketh to direct his own steps'.

Yes, I do agree that God has set the terms and conditions.

Paul clearly points out that there is just "one faith" and "one body" (Eph 4:4-5) and a reason there are many religious groups is due to man trying to set his own terms and conditions rather than following God's terms and condition. The result of man setting his own terms and condtins is contradictions abound from group to group.......major, mutually exclusive, sinful contradictions abound and there is no logic, NO TRUTH in those contradictions, those illogical contradictions did not come from God but man.

Man was given the will to go against God, but, I believe, he also gets into trouble whenever he does!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have already dealt with your "alledged" facts multiple times. You dont teach facts, but Campbell soup theology.

Avoiding the issues now personal attacks.

 

[mailmandan]

Avoiding the issues now personal attacks.

Avoiding wasting my time beating a dead horse is not avoiding the issues. I have dealt with the issues. You just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. Let me know when you are ready to change your mind and believe the gospel.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hebrews 11:7 and the simplicity of it:

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Was the salvation of Noah's house from the flood a matter of grace or was it something God owed them?

It was by grace, a free gift of God, not something God owed them.

Since the salvation of Noah's house was by grace, a free gift, then there was nothing Noah could do to earn it. Yet God made His free gift conditional, that reception of this free gift would be upon God's terms, not Noah's terms, and God made Noah's reception of this free gift conditional upon Noah obediently building an ark.

Was this obedient work in carrying out God;s command to build an ark a work of merit where God then OWED Noah's house salvation from the flood? No, for again, salvation from the flood was a free gift not soemthing owed, therefore there was nothing Noah could do to earn this free gift. Meaning his obeidence was NOT a work of merit done to earn this free gift but obedience in meeting God's terms to receive the free gift.

Note also that Noah build the ark to (eis) the saving of his house, that is he did not build the ark BECAUSE he was already saved from a flood that had not yet occured but in order to be saved from that impending flood. Noah' obedience in building the ark came FIRST BEFORE reception of ther free gift of salvation from the flood and that obedience eanred him nothing for the gift was already offered to Noah up front for free.

Hence when Paul puts obdience BEFORE justifification in Rom 6:16-18 we know that obedience does not earn the free gift of justification but is simply meeting the terms God has put upon His free gift in order for the gift to be received. Disobediene to God is rejecting the offer of God's free gift and as long as one continues in disobedience one continues to reject God terms thereby rejecting God's free gift.

IN THE SAME EXACT MANNER as salvation from the flood required obedience to God's terms, NT salvation comes with God's terms attached, those terms being belief (Jn 8:24) repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Lk 13:3) baptism (Mk 16:16). NT salvation is a free gift of God's grace as was salvation from the flood so there is nothing one can do to earn NT salvation as there was nothing Noah could do to earn God's free gift of salvation from the flood. In like manner, both required obedience to God's terms BEORE reception of the free gfit and since it was a mater of grace and could not be earned then obedience is not a work of merit.

Noah obediently met God's terms by building the ark IN ORDER to be saved, NOT BECAUSE he was alrady saved.
Those Jews in Acts 2 met God's terms by repenting and being baptized IN ORDER to be saved NOT BECAUSE they were already saved.

And obedience on part of Noah or those Jews could not earn a free gift God already offered them up front, the most that could be done was obediently meet the terms God place upon His free gift which earn NOTHING for again the free gift was already offered up front for free.

 

[brightfame52]

If we say that we are Justified before God or saved by Him because of our act of Faith or believing, then we are saying God saved or justifies us because of our works. Its a work because its acting obedience to a command just as much as its a command to love, notice 1 Jn 3:23

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

To obey a command, injunction is a work ! 30

 

[brightfame52]

When we misconstrue Faith/Believing to be that which is a condition performed by man in order to get God to save us, then we invalidate it being opposed to woks/law, and unwittingly make it a law. The principle of law works is this, when we deem it necessary to do something to gain the approval of God, and it not be done, its to our eternal peril, that's the principle of law works at work in our mind, because the law work principle requires man to do something for eternal life, or Gods acceptance and approval, or favor. Moses wrote of the law principal Rom 10:5

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

So it matters not what we make the condition to be, if the nonperformance of it be to our eternal peril, or the performing of it be to the gaining of Gods blessing and approval, we put ourselves under and confirm ourselves under law, and hence become obligated to keep the whole law for our final salvation, having forsaken the way of grace. 32