God told Abraham that his descendants would be as plentiful as the stars in the sky .....Abraham BELIEVED God and “ it was counted to him as Righteousness” .....Abraham did Nothing .....no actions ....no works.....he simply took God at His Word.....that is all you and I have to do.....
Is believing/faith a work ?
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Abraham did works to be justified.
Abraham's faith was a working faith, not a faith with no action.
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.
Abraham was made justified, righteous, saved by faithful obedience i.e. faith and works, James 2:22-24
No Abraham did works BECAUSE he was justified by grace through faith.
Absolutely Nothing was done in the example that I gave.....Abraham simply believed in this first example of what Faith was ......at other times , he did things......the first time , in the story about the stars and his descendants, he showed that he Trusted God and that was ALL that he did ....there was a reason why God had it play out like this....He was showing that nothing had to be done to be Justified other than to Believe a promise of God.....Nothing has changed.....Simply Believing a Promise Of God is what Faith is and if you will do that , it will get you Saved just like it got Abraham Saved.....” BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be Saved”...... That’s a Promise Of God......Anybody that Believes it will be Saved....Do you Believe it?
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete, like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22, he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) Simple!
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
No one was justified by disobeying God.
--Each man is doing either 1 of 2 things, each man is either obeying God or disobeying God
--Since disobedience does not, cannot justify
--Then it must be obedience that justifies....."obedience UNTO righteousness" (Romans 6:16). Paul never said 'DISobedience unto righteousness'. Paul never said 'obedience BECAUSE one is already righteous' but Paul did say obedience unto, in order to be righteous.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Got to love how people ignore romans 4. and continue to chose James, who in his writing was discussing mere belief vs true saving faith. as a means to justify their working for salvation
Yes it does make my point. If a person believes that God saves them from their sins based upon obedience to a command or an imperative, thats work merit salvation, no way around it.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Genesis 15:6 does not teach Abraham was justified by faith only, men read that idea into the verse. Such an idea also contradicts James 2 ('NOT justified by faith only') and the Bible does not contradict itself. Genesis 15:6 was not the initial time Abraham had faith, Abraham already had faith prior to Gen 15 in Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8. Therefore Abraham ALREADY had faith and in a saved, covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6 therefore not saved by faith alone in Gen 15:6.
Thus the justification of Abraham was NOT something that happened instantaneously at one moment in time by faith only but his justification was a process that began in Gen 12 with his faithful obedience in moving from his house, land and kindred. Had Abraham not obeyed in Gen 12 then Gen 15 would never occurred. The reason God even chose Abraham was because God foreknew Abraham would be obedient and by that obedience God foreknew he could bring about the promises He had spoken of Abraham (Genesis 18:19). Faith only apart from obedience could not accomplish this.
The justification process began in Genesis 12, Gen 15:6 was part of that process. From Romans 4:22 we see Abraham's faith was reckoned righteous on other occasions, Romans 4:19-22 Abraham's faith being reckoned righteous refers to Genesis 17 not Gen 15. Why would Abraham's faith need to be reckoned righteous a second time? Because justification was a process, not something that unconditionally happened once and for all time at one moment in time instantly by faith only in Gen 15:6. Abraham's final justification came in Gen 22:12 when he offered Isaac "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." God did not say "now I know" in Gen 12 when Abraham moved nor in Gen 15 or Gen 17 but not until Abraham's justification process was final in Gen 22 was his justification complete and God 'now knows'. This is why James refers to Gen 22 to Abraham's final justification, when his faith was perfected, made complete (James 2:21-22). Had Abraham disobeyed God at any time in the process he would have never been justified, his faith would have failed him and not been perfect if he disobeyed God.
Note in Romans 10:10 Paul said one "believeth unto righteousness" The NIV perverted this verse and tried to force the verse to say one is justified at the moment of faith only... "you believe and are justified". The verse does not teach belief only justifies but that belief is unto, moves one towards, in the direction of salvation. Paul says in Romans 4:3-5 that Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness, his faith was unto, moving toward justification. Had Abraham disobeyed and not had Isaac with Sara or disobeyed and not offer Isaac then he would never been justified. So his faith in Gen 15:6 was UNTO, towards being completely justified and Gen 15:6 was not fully realized, not fully complete until Gen 22 when he offered Isaac THEN his justification complete and THEN God "now knows".
It was a PROCESS UNTO JUSTIFICATION and the process was not fully completed, realized ("now I know") until Gen 22. Abraham therefore is not an example of instant justification by faith alone APART FROM obedience.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Nowhere ever does the Bible define obedience to God as a work or merit. This is a type of logical fallacy where obedience is purposefully given a false definition of being a work of merit so one can then turn right around and attack that false definition.
I wish I could agree but you are mistaken about Abraham doing nothing to be justified made righteous by God because of his faith.
Abraham was not accounted righteous by God because of faith alone.
James is speaking of what justified Abraham.
James teaches Abraham was justified because of works(obedience) to God.
Abraham was not righteous because of no obedience only belief.
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Paul says Abraham was not justified by his works.
A failure to know that there are different kinds of works in the Bible causes all this confusion about Faith and works.
James says Abraham was justified by His works,
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our Father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Who's right? Paul or James?
They are not disagreeing but speaking about different kinds of works.
Paul in Romans is teaching the Jews that converted to Christ about the works of the law of Moses.
Paul teaches you cannot be saved by the old law. No amount of works from the old law can justify mankind.
James is teaching about the works in the new covenant, the covenant we are saved under today.
The law of Christ,
James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it and is not a forgetful hearer but a DOER of the WORK, this one will be blessed in what he does.
The works James is teaching in chapter two of his book, is obedient works of the new covenant of Christ.
These obedient works of faith do justify us by Gods authority.
The works of the old law cannot justify anyone.
The old law had no power to save.
Paul teaches about the old law of Moses brings death.
Contrasting it with the law of Christ which brings life,
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, has made me free from
the law of sin and death(law of Moses).
So, the good works that are done in Jesus' gospel like repentance for example, saves
Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.
The works done in the Mosical law, cannot take away sins. Therefore those works cannot justify.
Abraham was justified the same way we are justified today.
Not by works of the law of Moses but by works of obedience to God that comes from Abraham's faith!
This is why the old testament writer said Abraham's faith accounted him as righteous. Not faith allone.
Abraham had an obedient faith, just as James taught.
Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the Lord and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
This is not faith alone.
This is an obedient faith.
Abraham did do works of obedience to be accounted righteous for his faith.
Before this passage was written about Abraham look at what his faith made him do.
Genesis 12:1
Now the Lord had said to Abram:
Get out of your country, from your family and from your fathers house, to a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.
God told Abraham to obey Him. Abraham did not just believe.
Abraham obeyed God with his faith in God. And that is why God blessed Abraham and said Abraham's faith is accounted to him for righteousness.
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out not knowing where he was going.
If Abraham had not obeyed Gods commandments God would had never said Abraham had faith.
Faith alone is not proof of faith.
God saw Abraham's faith was a trusting, genuine true faith because he obeyed not knowing where he was going.
Abraham was accounted as righteous and justified by an obedient faith.
Abraham sacrificed Isaac by faith. That is a working ,living, trusting faith.
Would Abraham have been justified by Wis faith alone if he did not obey God and sacrifice his son on the altar? No. Faith alone is dead.
Genesis 22:2
Then He said, take now your son(Isaac)....and go to the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.
Verse 12 And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, from Me.
Verse 16 and said: By Myself I have sworn says the Lord, BECAUSE YOU HAVE DONE THIS THING and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Blessing I will bless you and multiplying i will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavenmand as the sand of the sea; and your descendants shall posses the gate of their enemies.
Abraham's faith made him justified and righteous before God because it was a working obedient faith.
Abraham in Genesis 15:6 had works with his faith before God said He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Abraham was saved by faith and obedience to God like everyone is. Faith alone is dead, James 2:24
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Danthemailman does this to me everytime I teach faith must accompany obedience to be an acceptable faith to God.
If we go along with this misrepresentation of what we both know as saving faith,
then these faith alone folks are guilty of meritorious works based salvation.
They define works of any kind as merit.
James taught works of obedience.
They teach James' works are meritorious if they are are required for salvation.
Therefore the obedient works they do after salvation must also be mislabeled as meritorious to be consistent with their wrong definition of obedience.
Any good works they do are not works of obedience but meritorious works.
They better stop all good obedient works, Ephesians 2:10
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Yes and in James 2:14 we read of one who merely says/claims they have faith, but they have no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
Works-salvationists just can’t seem to figure out that James is discussing the evidence evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
Agree, and without faith and being saved, there will be no good works done.
Good works Paul does teach on. Good works are a result of being an elect saved person, according to the will of God, they are prepared beforehand for us to walk in, some good works.
- Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Titus 2:7
in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Titus 2:14
who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Titus 3:14
And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Yes and in Ephesians 2:8-10, we read - by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
SAVED FOR GOOD WORKS AND NOT BY GOOD WORKS. People who teach salvation by faith “and works” put the cart before the horse.
We are being conformed to the image of Christ by the Father.
We are saved by grace through the means of faith gifted to us, it is a God thing.
We are saved by the work of God and Christ done for us.
John 5:16-18 New King James Version
Honor the Father and the Son
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
(For the antitrinity people)
So since we are being conformed into His image, God also gives us good works to do. It is part of godliness and goodness.
His good works and our good works.
Goodness is a fruit of the Spirit, as is faithfulness. Fruits of the Spirit are produced by us by the work of the Holy Spirit working in us, we bear the good fruit.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
People are justified by obedience to the Gospel It is called "the obedience of faith" and it means repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). But the Bible is crystal clear -- Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness.
SINNERS ARE JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH PLUS NOTHING.
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