Is Genesis 1:1 an act of creation?

[KBCid]

What makes you think God spoke any "first" words at all?

What makes you think that I am inferring that God spoke audible words that our ears would hear? The ear had not yet been made.

Gen 1:1 implies a creative act.

Gen 1:1 implies a completed creative act actually.

If you study the Hebrew words you will notice in Gen 1:3 the word "said" is not past tense but is in the IMPERFECT tense. That means the action of saying something is not finished but is a continual repetitive event which happened in the past, is happening in the ever present and continues to happen in future.

I do study Hebrew and you apparently haven't so, here is your first lesson;

Learn Hebrew Verbs - Biblical Application
Genesis 1:3
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי אוֹר וַיְהִי־אוֹר׃
And Elohiym said, light will exist and light existed.
וַיֹּאמֶר This is the verb root אמר meaning "to say." The prefix י identifies the subject of the verb as third person, masculine, singular (he) and the tense of the verb as imperfect (he will say). The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and he said). The subject of the verb is the word אֱלֹהִים (Elohiym) which follows this verb so, this would be translated as "and Elohiym said."
Learn Hebrew - 13

Your replies to my post are in error in many ways. I don't see any point in responding further to correct obvious errors that anyone can look up.

 

[KBCid]

And so are all the other worlds God created and placed man on and will create again. I tell you will see the new shortly.

Imagination is a gift how far you take it determines whose gift its from

 

[skyangel]

What makes you think that I am inferring that God spoke audible words that our ears would hear? The ear had not yet been made.

I am inferring that MOST READERS of the bible think of a person actually speaking verbally when they read "God said".

If you personally do not think of a person speaking audibly when you read those words, please explain how you perceive them.

 

[skyangel]

Gen 1:1 implies a completed creative act actually.

In what way do you perceive it to be completed when it is still happening and all living things are still yielding fruit after their own kind?
Creation has not stopped in case you have not noticed. NEW things are being born, made or created every day. Open your eyes and see.
God is the same and does the same yesterday today and forever.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
All things are made NEW every day.
Have you been made NEW yet or are you an "old man" who just gets more OLD every day?
Creation is an eternal process of the old passing away and being replaced with the NEW.
The Created ("bara" Gen 1:1 ) has no finite beginning or end in general any more than the Creator ( "bara" Ecc 12:1) has a finite beginning or end. It is its own beginning and end at all times.
"Bara" is both the Created and the Creator.

 

[skyangel]

I do study Hebrew and you apparently haven't so, here is your first lesson;

Learn Hebrew Verbs - Biblical Application
Genesis 1:3
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי אוֹר וַיְהִי־אוֹר׃
And Elohiym said, light will exist and light existed.
וַיֹּאמֶר This is the verb root אמר meaning "to say." The prefix י identifies the subject of the verb as third person, masculine, singular (he) and the tense of the verb as imperfect (he will say). The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and he said). The subject of the verb is the word אֱלֹהִים (Elohiym) which follows this verb so, this would be translated as "and Elohiym said."
Learn Hebrew - 13

Your replies to my post are in error in many ways. I don't see any point in responding further to correct obvious errors that anyone can look up.

I am not the one in error. Please take time to read your own link. I have quoted the section of which you need to take special notice. You might not be fully aware of what it teaches.
Learn Hebrew - 13

"In English a verb can have three tenses - past, present or future. Examples of these would be "You cut a tree" (past), "You are cutting a tree" (present) and "You will cut a tree" (future). Biblical Hebrew only has two tenses - perfect and imperfect. While the three verb tenses in English are related to time, Biblical Hebrew verb tenses are related to action. The perfect tense is a completed action while the imperfect tense is an incomplete action."

Gen 1:3 the verb tenses are IMPERFECT which in Hebrew means they are incomplete actions and not yet finished in spite of being translated as past tense which implies a completed action in English.

The Hebrew concept is that God did an action in the past, is still doing the same action today and will continue to do the same action in the future. Hence we get the concept of God never changing ( Mal 3:6) or Christ being the SAME yesterday Today and forever (Heb 13:8) as well as there being no new thing under the sun (Ecc 1:9)

 

[skyangel]

And so are all the other worlds God created and placed man on and will create again. I tell you will see the new shortly.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
To those in Christ, ALL things including the Earth is already NEW.
Those who are still waiting to see a NEW Earth are not yet IN CHRIST.

 

[KBCid]

I am not the one in error. Please take time to read your own link. I have quoted the section of which you need to take special notice. You might not be fully aware of what it teaches.
Learn Hebrew - 13
"In English a verb can have three tenses - past, present or future. Examples of these would be "You cut a tree" (past), "You are cutting a tree" (present) and "You will cut a tree" (future). Biblical Hebrew only has two tenses - perfect and imperfect. While the three verb tenses in English are related to time, Biblical Hebrew verb tenses are related to action. The perfect tense is a completed action while the imperfect tense is an incomplete action.")
Gen 1:3 the verb tenses are IMPERFECT which in Hebrew means they are incomplete actions and not yet finished in spite of being translated as past tense which implies a completed action in English.

You specifically said ""If you study the Hebrew words you will notice in Gen 1:3 the word "said" is not past tense but is in the IMPERFECT tense. That means the action of saying something is not finished but is a continual repetitive event which happened in the past, is happening in the ever present and continues to happen in future.""

And I showed you that;
׃The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and he said). The subject of the verb is the word אֱלֹהִים (Elohiym) which follows this verb so, this would be translated as "and Elohiym said." It is an action that is now in the past just like;

This is the verb root היה meaning "to exist" or "to be." The prefix י identifies the subject of the verb as third person, masculine, singular (he) and the tense of the verb as imperfect (he will exist/be). The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and he existed/was). The subject of the verb is the word אוֹר (or) which follows this verb so, this would be translated as "and light existed/was."
It happened in the past and is not still happening.


Genesis 3:2
וַתֹּאמֶר הָאִשָּׁה אֶל־הַנָּחָשׁ
And the woman said to the serpent
וַתֹּאמֶר This is the verb root אמר meaning "to say." The prefix ת identifies the subject of the verb as third person, feminine, singular (she) and the tense of the verb as imperfect (she will say). The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and she said). The subject of the verb is the word meaning "the woman" so, this would be transated as "the woman said." This is not still being said, it was said in the past

Learn Hebrew - 13

Do you not understand English? The prefix ו, meaning "and," also REVERSES THE TENSE OF THE VERB So, because there is a prefix ו, meaning and then the verbs tense is reversed. It is no longer happening... it has happened.

If you don't understand the plain English then you have more problems than can be resolved in a post

 

[skyangel]

It is an action that is now in the past just like;

This is the verb root היה meaning "to exist" or "to be." The prefix י identifies the subject of the verb as third person, masculine, singular (he) and the tense of the verb as imperfect (he will exist/be). The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and he existed/was). The subject of the verb is the word אוֹר (or) which follows this verb so, this would be translated as "and light existed/was."
It happened in the past and is not still happening.


Genesis 3:2
וַתֹּאמֶר הָאִשָּׁה אֶל־הַנָּחָשׁ
And the woman said to the serpent
וַתֹּאמֶר This is the verb root אמר meaning "to say." The prefix ת identifies the subject of the verb as third person, feminine, singular (she) and the tense of the verb as imperfect (she will say). The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and she said). The subject of the verb is the word meaning "the woman" so, this would be transated as "the woman said." This is not still being said, it was said in the past

Learn Hebrew - 13

Do you not understand English? The prefix ו, meaning "and," also REVERSES THE TENSE OF THE VERB So, because there is a prefix ו, meaning and then the verbs tense is reversed. It is no longer happening... it has happened.

If you don't understand the plain English then you have more problems than can be resolved in a post

I understand plain English perfectly well but I also understand that creation is a continual process and has not finished. If it was finished nothing new would ever be produced, born or made. It is not about arguing over semantics but more about looking at the principle which manifests in nature every day. Creation is its own evidence and it shows us it has not ended by its constant reproduction cycles.
You could say the CYCLE is complete in the sense of it being a complete cycle but in the sense of it ending, it is eternal and the process does not have a beginning or end any more than eternal life has a beginning or end in spite of physical life having a finite beginning and end. If you understood eternal concepts you would know that is true.

As for the woman saying anything to the serpent, it happened in the past in a story but in a spiritual sense it is constantly happening. In a spiritual sense, the "woman" ( Church) is constantly saying the same thing to the serpent and also still partaking of the tree of knowledge when the church strives to gain the knowledge of God and be like God.

 

[bbyrd009]

׃The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and he said)

how would an author have stated "and He said" if they did not want the tense "reversed?" ty

 

[KBCid]

how would an author have stated "and He said" if they did not want the tense "reversed?" ty

Indeed a wise question

Learn Hebrew Verbs - Verb Tenses
Each Hebrew verb also identifies the tense of the verb. In English a verb can have three tenses - past, present or future. Examples of these would be "You cut a tree" (past), "You are cutting a tree" (present) and "You will cut a tree" (future). Biblical Hebrew only has two tenses - perfect and imperfect. While the three verb tenses in English are related to time, Biblical Hebrew verb tenses are related to action. The perfect tense is a completed action while the imperfect tense is an incomplete action.

As we have learned, the verb קצרתי identifies the subject of the verb as first person - "I" but, it also identifies the verb as "perfect tense," a completed action - "I cut." When the verb is written as אקצר the subject of the verb is also first person - "I" but, the tense is now "imperfect tense," an incomplete action and can be translated as "I am cutting a tree" (an action that has begun but not yet completed) or "I will cut a tree" (an action that has not yet begun).


Learn Hebrew Verbs - Biblical Application

Genesis 1:3
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי אוֹר וַיְהִי־אוֹר׃
And Elohiym said, light will exist and light existed.
וַיֹּאמֶר This is the verb root אמר meaning "to say." The prefix י identifies the subject of the verb as third person, masculine, singular (he) and the tense of the verb as imperfect (he will say). The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and he said). The subject of the verb is the word אֱלֹהִים (Elohiym) which follows this verb so, this would be translated as "and Elohiym said."
Learn Hebrew - 13

1 Cor 1:27 God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise...

 

[bbyrd009]

Indeed a wise question

Learn Hebrew Verbs - Verb Tenses
Each Hebrew verb also identifies the tense of the verb. In English a verb can have three tenses - past, present or future. Examples of these would be "You cut a tree" (past), "You are cutting a tree" (present) and "You will cut a tree" (future). Biblical Hebrew only has two tenses - perfect and imperfect. While the three verb tenses in English are related to time, Biblical Hebrew verb tenses are related to action. The perfect tense is a completed action while the imperfect tense is an incomplete action.

As we have learned, the verb קצרתי identifies the subject of the verb as first person - "I" but, it also identifies the verb as "perfect tense," a completed action - "I cut." When the verb is written as אקצר the subject of the verb is also first person - "I" but, the tense is now "imperfect tense," an incomplete action and can be translated as "I am cutting a tree" (an action that has begun but not yet completed) or "I will cut a tree" (an action that has not yet begun).


Learn Hebrew Verbs - Biblical Application

Genesis 1:3
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי אוֹר וַיְהִי־אוֹר׃
And Elohiym said, light will exist and light existed.
וַיֹּאמֶר This is the verb root אמר meaning "to say." The prefix י identifies the subject of the verb as third person, masculine, singular (he) and the tense of the verb as imperfect (he will say). The prefix ו, meaning "and," also reverses the tense of the verb (and he said). The subject of the verb is the word אֱלֹהִים (Elohiym) which follows this verb so, this would be translated as "and Elohiym said."
Learn Hebrew - 13

1 Cor 1:27 God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise...

ah ty, can you give any reasoning for why adding "and" to a sentence in Hebrew would "reverse" the tense of the verb?

 

[KBCid]

I understand plain English perfectly well but I also understand that creation is a continual process and has not finished. If it was finished nothing new would ever be produced, born or made. It is not about arguing over semantics but more about looking at the principle which manifests in nature every day. Creation is its own evidence and it shows us it has not ended by its constant reproduction cycles.
You could say the CYCLE is complete in the sense of it being a complete cycle but in the sense of it ending, it is eternal and the process does not have a beginning or end any more than eternal life has a beginning or end in spite of physical life having a finite beginning and end. If you understood eternal concepts you would know that is true.

I understand what you are seeing in the observable world and I am grasping how you are seeing it within the creation story and it is admirable to try and give additional meaning to God.
Let me pass on to you the world that I see and see if this makes sense to you. In my world I study Engineering / Bioengineering (I am an engineer) since I was born with that gift, and since I have studied the mechanics of biology I find the cycles in everything Living or non-living. The difference between our views is I see that God has made the creation by designing self-cycling everything, God doesn't have to actively do anything for anything in the physical world to happen because, he created everything to follow his pre-programmed cycle.
When our maker created everything he had the power and the wisdom to make them self-propagating. He created procreation. He created us in the very image of how creation came to be. Two separate beings acting as one to come together and make a new being "and the twain shall be one flesh" Together the Father and Christ formed us in a physical manner to represent the spiritual "I and my Father are one" that we may see his truth.
So, the bottom line here is that God created the system that is self-cycling... self-replicating... Perfection. Adam and Eve would have lived for eternity (had they not allowed error into the mechanics of the creation) without God having to create another thing. Look at the creation closer for the clues about how our creator structured his creation.

Luke 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28If then God so clothe the grass....

God clothed the lily from the beginning with a genetic structure that essentially ends with the lilies reproducing, there was no further need to produce the lily anew each time. God did what engineers dream of doing.... creating a system of self replication. Imagine cars that make cars etc.

As for the woman saying anything to the serpent, it happened in the past in a story but in a spiritual sense it is constantly happening. In a spiritual sense, the "woman" ( Church) is constantly saying the same thing to the serpent and also still partaking of the tree of knowledge when the church strives to gain the knowledge of God and be like God.

You are certainly free to think it is so.

 

[KBCid]

ah ty, can you give any reasoning for why adding "and" to a sentence in Hebrew would "reverse" the tense of the verb?

The verb and how and why it varies. Outline.
A verb usually describes an action. Variations on this central concept inform us who performs the action, when it is performed, or if we are considering the action in itself, whether it is a statement about it in a particular case, or a command to perform it, and so on.
In Classical Hebrew, as in Latin and Greek, these variations are usually expressed by taking the ‘root’ of the verb and modifying it by adding prefixes or suffixes, changing the vowels inside the word, doubling syllables or consonants, and so on. The final result in each case is still one word, and producing these variations is called ‘inflexion’ (or ‘inflection’) or ‘conjugation’.
http://www.lookstein.org/articles/hebverb.pdf

Wanting to understand how translations are derived you should start looking at mechanical translations which can be quite enlightening. a strictly mechanical translation of Hebrew from the bible is free from the following site;
MT of the Torah - Home Page

They also discuss such subjects as;

The Original Language of the Torah
Many theological discussions, teachings and debates use phrases like "The Bible says," or "God says." From a technical point of view, the problem with these statements is that it assumes the Bible was written in English, which of course we all know is not true.
The Bible does not say, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." A more accurate statement would be, "The Bible says, ' בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ (bereshiyt bara elohiym et hashamayim v'et ha'arets), ' which is often translated and interpreted as, 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.'" While this may sound trivial, it is in fact a very important issue as many theological differences, divisions and arguments are based on faulty interpretations of the text that could easily be resolved by examining the original language of the Bible. Once the Hebrew text is recognized, its meanings and interpretations can then be discussed properly.....
The Original Language of the Torah

 

[101G]

If God's first words were Gen 1:3 "And God said, let there be light..." and it is further written in John 1:3 that "All things were made by him (the word); and without him (the word)was not any thing made that was made." Then how is it that so many Christian sects believe that Genesis 1:1 was God's first act of creation?

it's incredible how people just misread words. Create is not made. everything was "created" in 1:1 and everthing was made by the "WISDOM" or the Word of God. creation is instance. made is a process. creation and making are all in the beginning. this is the definition of beginning. just as Man was "Formed" on day 3 and created male and female on day 6. it's not hard to understand.

 

[bbyrd009]

The verb and how and why it varies. Outline.
A verb usually describes an action. Variations on this central concept inform us who performs the action, when it is performed, or if we are considering the action in itself, whether it is a statement about it in a particular case, or a command to perform it, and so on.
In Classical Hebrew, as in Latin and Greek, these variations are usually expressed by taking the ‘root’ of the verb and modifying it by adding prefixes or suffixes, changing the vowels inside the word, doubling syllables or consonants, and so on. The final result in each case is still one word, and producing these variations is called ‘inflexion’ (or ‘inflection’) or ‘conjugation’.
http://www.lookstein.org/articles/hebverb.pdf

Wanting to understand how translations are derived you should start looking at mechanical translations which can be quite enlightening. a strictly mechanical translation of Hebrew from the bible is free from the following site;
MT of the Torah - Home Page

They also discuss such subjects as;

The Original Language of the Torah
Many theological discussions, teachings and debates use phrases like "The Bible says," or "God says." From a technical point of view, the problem with these statements is that it assumes the Bible was written in English, which of course we all know is not true.
The Bible does not say, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." A more accurate statement would be, "The Bible says, ' בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ (bereshiyt bara elohiym et hashamayim v'et ha'arets), ' which is often translated and interpreted as, 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.'" While this may sound trivial, it is in fact a very important issue as many theological differences, divisions and arguments are based on faulty interpretations of the text that could easily be resolved by examining the original language of the Bible. Once the Hebrew text is recognized, its meanings and interpretations can then be discussed properly.....
The Original Language of the Torah

While this may sound trivial

i din't see any difference in the two statements at all? Maybe tired tho still looking lol.

Once the Hebrew text is recognized, its meanings and interpretations can then be discussed properly.....

isn't this why weighty panels of PhDs are assembled to undertake translations? I mean yikes already.

 

[KBCid]

i din't see any difference in the two statements at all? Maybe tired tho still looking lol.
isn't this why weighty panels of PhDs are assembled to undertake translations? I mean yikes already.

The 2 statements are these;

The Bible does not say, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

A more accurate statement would be, "The Bible says, ' בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ (bereshiyt bara elohiym et hashamayim v'et ha'arets),

He is simply comparing English to Hebrew... The translation can be seen in the free pdf. Here is the mechanical translation of Gen 1:1, first in Hebrew then the mechanical trans to English words then the translation to more readable English;


The Mechanical Translation of Genesis
Chapter 1

בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָּא אֱלֹהִׁים אֵת הַשָּמַיִׁם וְּאֵת הָּאָרֶץ 1:1

in~ Summit he~ did~ Fatten “Elohiym [Powers]” At the~ Sky~ s2 and~ At
the~ Land

in the summit “Elohiym [Powers]" fattened the sky and the land,......

So, "In summit" is where it is typically translated "In the beginning" now this verse could be rendered into English as "in beginning God filled sky and land".

It has a whole new meaning depending on the individual words in the direct translation and the English words that are added to the text to make it seem like it was written in modern English.

Here is another interesting story that has made the rounds on the internet;

God is not the Creator, claims academic
The notion of God as the Creator is wrong, claims a top academic, who believes the Bible has been wrongly translated for thousands of years.

Professor Ellen van Wolde, a respected Old Testament scholar and author, claims the first sentence of Genesis "in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth" is not a true translation of the Hebrew....
....She said she eventually concluded the Hebrew verb "bara", which is used in the first sentence of the book of Genesis, does not mean "to create" but to "spatially separate"
The first sentence should now read "in the beginning God separated the Heaven and the Earth"....
God is not the Creator, claims academic

 

[bbyrd009]

It has a whole new meaning depending on the individual words in the direct translation and the English words that are added to the text to make it seem like it was written in modern English.

why doesn't the lexicon read that way? hmm. Who can hope to have an accurate rendering into English then?

 

[bbyrd009]

Here is another interesting story that has made the rounds on the internet;

arg pls. She can believe what she likes lol, no doubt she "knows" all this somehow

 

[KBCid]

why doesn't the lexicon read that way? hmm. Who can hope to have an accurate rendering into English then?

Therein lies the rub.
God has said that his inspired word is true and dependable but, he didn't say anything about translations of his word into any other language. The hebrew scribes who were commissioned in each generation to faithfully copy the scrolls had very meticulous methods to retain it in exactness from the original however, as soon as the interpretation and replication left their hands then it became a crapshoot. Your faith in God's word is now directed as men have delivered it but, God knows what his sheep need and he has promised to give what is needed whether it be understanding or otherwise to help them reach the desire of their hearts. By spending the time to gain the skill to understand the language that God chose to send his word in we can put ourselves into a situation where he can help to open our understanding as we study it.
satan doesn't want people to comprehend the pure message of God's word. At every turn he has influenced it to be corrupted so that peoples imaginations can become set onto the wide path. It has been said that there are over 20,000 varieties of Christianity alone and the only way this can happen is if there is a corruption of the original word being received and a failure in understanding.

 

[KBCid]

arg pls. She can believe what she likes lol, no doubt she "knows" all this somehow

I only referenced this to show that phd's or expert opinions don't necessarily create a path to truth. Consider this, the original translators didn't have all the evidence we now possess when they were trying to make the translation and yet the same old text based on the understanding of those men at that time is believed to be a proper translation. Even now we can reference a multitude of bible versions tailored to the specific beliefs of those who want them.