Is God outside of time?

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biggandyy

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SWPA
Ultimately He is unknowable in the same sense we ourselves are ultimately unknowable to each other. I can never think your thoughts after you, even if we were identical twins. What He has revealed is not an exhaustive revelation of Himself. Theogically, the term unknowable is used in a inclusive sense when speaking about God rather than the exclusive sense as when we speak of a grocery store can without its label.
 

Selene

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Lux Veritatis said:
The problem with God being wholly other and as the Bible says, unfathomable, how is it that you can claim to know anything about him? You're basically saying you know something that can't be known which is a contradiction.
God revealed Himself to the Jewish people in their history. To the Christians, He revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ. In order to know God the Father, one must know Him through His Son. And as BiggAndyy pointed out, reading the Bible is knowing about Christ.
 

Lux Veritatis

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Selene said:
God revealed Himself to the Jewish people in their history. To the Christians, He revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ. In order to know God the Father, one must know Him through His Son. And as BiggAndyy pointed out, reading the Bible is knowing about Christ.
Knowing about and actually knowing someone are two different things.
 

Selene

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Lux Veritatis said:
Knowing about and actually knowing someone are two different things.
That is true. But one needs to start somewhere. Reading the Bible would be the first step in coming to know Him.
 

Lux Veritatis

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Selene said:
That is true. But one needs to start somewhere. Reading the Bible would be the first step in coming to know Him.
What qualifies as knowing Jesus? Do you know his favorite food?
 

biggandyy

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Oct 11, 2011
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In two ways; first through intellectual assent, secondly through spiritual revelation.

One can have the former without the latter, but one can not have the latter without the former (despite what the Oneness Pentecostals and denominational Charismatics may believe).
 

Lux Veritatis

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BiggAndyy said:
In two ways; first through intellectual assent, secondly through spiritual revelation.

One can have the former without the latter, but one can not have the latter without the former (despite what the Oneness Pentecostals and denominational Charismatics may believe).
What does it mean to know Jesus?
 

Lux Veritatis

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BiggAndyy said:
In which manner are you referring? I think I know, but I don't want to assume.
I mean in the sense that you have a relationship with him, like one would have with a parent or a friend.
 

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One can have the former without the latter, but one can not have the latter without the former (despite what the Oneness Pentecostals and denominational Charismatics may believe).
My personal testimony is the latter...these two things work together but not necessarily in any set order.... :huh:


What does it mean to know Jesus?
To know Jesus is to be known by him.


1 John 5
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
 

biggandyy

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Oct 11, 2011
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That kind of a relationship, a familial one, is the relationship we look forward to as Christians. When we, as believers, will see Him as one can see any other person walking down the street.

There are those who express they enjoy that kind of relationship with Christ now, even some who insist that type of relationship MUST be the norm elsewise one has not yet truly believed. I do not fall into that camp. But I will try to relate what I can from what I understand of Christ thus far.

Jesus said quite plainly, "Where I am going you can not follow, but if I go I will leave a comforter with you" (BPV- BiggAndyy's Paraphrased Version). The person we do get to experience in our lives now is the Holy Spirit, not Jesus (God come in the flesh).

Now I realize all I've really done is move the goalposts a little bit and not answered the question, merely rephrased it; "How does one experience the Holy Spirit?" I will give you five ways the Holy Spirit either is present in our lives, or is accessible to our lives (they are short and certainly not exhaustive in their quantity or quality).

First is through Scripture (the Bible). If one expects to have any kind of meaningful relationship with anyone it must be built on a foundation of both knowledge and trust. The Bible is, of course, our first and primary source of knowledge of all things spiritual. But it must also be a trustworthy and faithful account of both history and teaching. If we fail to grant these first two provisos then everything else just can't make sense.

Second is through prayer and meditation on the words we've just read. After all, if one must study in order to learn something like chemistry or sociology, merely a few cursory glances at several pages or chapters of the Bible will impart no information at all, much less understanding. The Bible is where we are introduced to Christ (and the Holy Spirit), prayer is where we can make our introduction to Him.

Third up is participation in corporate worship. I know that a new phenomena has popped up in the American Church, the Seeker Sensitive Church. But Sunday Worship should be a time where believers come together to bring worship to Christ. The worship service is not a place to try to "convert" someone to the faith. It's like taking an eighth grade biology student to an autopsy; it's just not the time or place for such a person to be. But corporate worship is valuable to the Christian for edification (building up the faith of some, restoring the faith in others) and is a place where we get to express, in public, our love and dependence on the Holy Spirit for our times of trouble and even for the mundane.

Fourth is small Bible study. Where those less well versed in scripture can go to learn, ask questions, and be reinforced in their walk with the Holy Spirit. Mush less formal than true worship, it's where we get to "practice" our Christianity with others.

Lastly, we experience the Holy Spirit (and Christ) through Christian relationships. Having friends who are fellow believers, to pray with and hold us accountable when we fail, and to be an additional resource for God to have into our lives. No Man is an island, and no Christian is a Christian unto themselves. Without others, like the coal taken from the fire, we grow cold, distant, and can feel like God has abandoned us.

Christianity is a faith we give away, because two things collide at the cross, our sin and God's mercy. No where else can those two be dealt with except at the foot of the Cross, where forgiveness ultimately flows.
 

Selene

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Lux Veritatis said:
Clever. But seriously, how does one "know" Jesus?
Seriously. Read the lives of the saints......St. Francis of Assissi, St. John of the cross, St. Anthony, Padre Pio, Maria Goretti, Joseph of Cupertino, St. John Vianny, and even St. Bernadette.....and then try explaining the supernatural force that surrounds them such as the incorruptible bodies of St. Bernadette and John Vianny.

 

Lux Veritatis

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Jan 22, 2013
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BiggAndyy said:
That kind of a relationship, a familial one, is the relationship we look forward to as Christians. When we, as believers, will see Him as one can see any other person walking down the street.

There are those who express they enjoy that kind of relationship with Christ now, even some who insist that type of relationship MUST be the norm elsewise one has not yet truly believed. I do not fall into that camp. But I will try to relate what I can from what I understand of Christ thus far.

Jesus said quite plainly, "Where I am going you can not follow, but if I go I will leave a comforter with you" (BPV- BiggAndyy's Paraphrased Version). The person we do get to experience in our lives now is the Holy Spirit, not Jesus (God come in the flesh).

Now I realize all I've really done is move the goalposts a little bit and not answered the question, merely rephrased it; "How does one experience the Holy Spirit?" I will give you five ways the Holy Spirit either is present in our lives, or is accessible to our lives (they are short and certainly not exhaustive in their quantity or quality).

First is through Scripture (the Bible). If one expects to have any kind of meaningful relationship with anyone it must be built on a foundation of both knowledge and trust. The Bible is, of course, our first and primary source of knowledge of all things spiritual. But it must also be a trustworthy and faithful account of both history and teaching. If we fail to grant these first two provisos then everything else just can't make sense.

Second is through prayer and meditation on the words we've just read. After all, if one must study in order to learn something like chemistry or sociology, merely a few cursory glances at several pages or chapters of the Bible will impart no information at all, much less understanding. The Bible is where we are introduced to Christ (and the Holy Spirit), prayer is where we can make our introduction to Him.

Third up is participation in corporate worship. I know that a new phenomena has popped up in the American Church, the Seeker Sensitive Church. But Sunday Worship should be a time where believers come together to bring worship to Christ. The worship service is not a place to try to "convert" someone to the faith. It's like taking an eighth grade biology student to an autopsy; it's just not the time or place for such a person to be. But corporate worship is valuable to the Christian for edification (building up the faith of some, restoring the faith in others) and is a place where we get to express, in public, our love and dependence on the Holy Spirit for our times of trouble and even for the mundane.

Fourth is small Bible study. Where those less well versed in scripture can go to learn, ask questions, and be reinforced in their walk with the Holy Spirit. Mush less formal than true worship, it's where we get to "practice" our Christianity with others.

Lastly, we experience the Holy Spirit (and Christ) through Christian relationships. Having friends who are fellow believers, to pray with and hold us accountable when we fail, and to be an additional resource for God to have into our lives. No Man is an island, and no Christian is a Christian unto themselves. Without others, like the coal taken from the fire, we grow cold, distant, and can feel like God has abandoned us.

Christianity is a faith we give away, because two things collide at the cross, our sin and God's mercy. No where else can those two be dealt with except at the foot of the Cross, where forgiveness ultimately flows.
Seems reasonable. Thank you for that explanation.

Selene said:
Seriously. Read the lives of the saints......St. Francis of Assissi, St. John of the cross, St. Anthony, Padre Pio, Maria Goretti, Joseph of Cupertino, St. John Vianny, and even St. Bernadette.....and then try explaining the supernatural force that surrounds them such as the incorruptible bodies of St. Bernadette and John Vianny.

I think you will find that in most cases these "incorrupt" bodies are actually well preserved by mummification, and are usually covered in a wax mask to cover the undesirable features of the corpse.
 

Selene

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Lux Veritatis said:
Seems reasonable. Thank you for that explanation.



I think you will find that in most cases these "incorrupt" bodies are actually well preserved by mummification, and are usually covered in a wax mask to cover the undesirable features of the corpse.
Except for the FACT that Christians don't mummify their dead.
 

Lux Veritatis

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Selene said:
Except for the FACT that Christians don't mummify their dead.
Mummification can happen naturally through desiccation of tissues. There are many factors that affect the rate of decay of bodies. The FACT remains, however, that there are no truly incorrupt corpses, only ones that appear to have less decay than others.
 

Selene

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Apr 12, 2010
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Lux Veritatis said:
Mummification can happen naturally through desiccation of tissues. There are many factors that affect the rate of decay of bodies. The FACT remains, however, that there are no truly incorrupt corpses, only ones that appear to have less decay than others.
You can tell that to the 10 saints you were found to be incorruptible and some of them are already over hundreds of years old. And then there are the miracles of the other saints that Padre Pio and even St. Anthony did. Padre Pio made a blind girl who had no pupils be able to see, despite the fact that she still had no pupils. This was back in the 1960s and doctors could not explain how she was able to see without pupils.

Correction....God made a blind girl with no pupils see using Padre Pio. The Church always attributes the miracles to God rather than to the person because humans cannot perform miracles.
 

Lux Veritatis

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Jan 22, 2013
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Selene said:
You can tell that to the 10 saints you were found to be incorruptible and some of them are already over hundreds of years old. And then there are the miracles of the other saints that Padre Pio and even St. Anthony did. Padre Pio made a blind girl who had no pupils be able to see, despite the fact that she still had no pupils. This was back in the 1960s and doctors could not explain how she was able to see without pupils.
Sources? I'd love to learn more.