Selene
New Member
I told you to read the lives of the saints. Since you already declared the Bible to be a fairy tale....then read about the saints. I already gave the names of some of those saints.Lux Veritatis said:
Is God outside of time?
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If you are going to claim someone made a blind girl with no pupils see, you ought to be able to cite sources to back that up. Its not up to me to go search out every story. If you are going to throw that out there with no evidence or source, I can rightfully dismiss it and give it no further thought.Selene said:
I am genuinely curious, however, and would care to read more.
In all deference to Lux, Selene is making some fairly wild claims. Most of those are Catholic myths that sprung up from kernels of truth.
But I'll provide a link for your information.
http://www.marypages.com/IncorruptBodies.htm
and one less "catholic" in it's treatment.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/incorruptible.htm
But I'll provide a link for your information.
http://www.marypages.com/IncorruptBodies.htm
and one less "catholic" in it's treatment.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/incorruptible.htm
Selene
New Member
You want me to cite the sources??? For someone who claimed to be an ex-Catholic, you really don't know your saints. The name of the blind girl who was born without pupils was Gemma di Giorgi. Below is the story and I also provided the weblink.Lux Veritatis said:
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Healing a blind girl born without pupils is one of St. Padre Pio's miracles.
Philippine Daily Inquirer
| June 23, 2002 | COPYRIGHT 2001 Philippine Daily Inquirer Inc. (Hide copyright information
Byline: Josephine Darang
ONE miraculous healing interceded by newly canonized saint Padre Pio was the healing of a blind girl born without pupils. How Gemma di Giorgi could see without pupils puzzled doctors at that time in 1947 when the grandmother brought the little girl to San Dioganni Rotondo from Sicily and asked Padre Pio to heal her.
The story reveals that the holy priest made the Sign of the Cross on the eyelids of the girl after she went to confession and received her first communion. I found this story in the book "Padre Pio of Pietrelcina" in a chapter written by Fr. Armand Dasseville, OFM Capuchin.
This healing was one of the testimonies of miracles that propelled Blessed Padre Pio to sainthood. At least 300,000 people packed into St. Peter's Square and streets near the Vatican to hear Pope John Paul II declare in Latin, "We inscribe in the rule of saints and we declare in the entire Church that he be honored with devotion among the saints."
Celebration in Manila
While Padre Pio was being canonized in Rome, St. Francis Church on Shaw Blvd., Mandaluyong held a concelebrated High Mass presided by Bishop Soc Villegas at 3 p.m. The church has the St. Padre Pio Center under the care of Fr. Serge Arenga, who was in Rome for the canonization.
In the National Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes on Kanlaon St., Quezon City, Fr. Troy de los Santos, OFM Capuchin celebrated Mass at 5 p.m. and blessed the two-feet statue of St. Padre Pio standing on the right side of the altar. Those who wish to pray to Padre Pio can go to this church.
At the Manila Seedling Bank Worship Hall, the Spirit of Love Catholic Community will hold a healing Mass on July 1 at 7 p.m., in honor of Padre Pio. A big painting of the saint by Filipino artist Abe Lucas graces one wall. A glove of Padre Pio is venerated for healing after communion.
Chito Bertol, who manages Manila Seedling Bank, promised Padre Pio, who saved his leg from being amputated in 1997 due to diabetes neuropathy, that he would build him a chapel. Thus, the worship hall was built through the help of the saint himself.
Chito propagates the devotion by distributing estampitas. Those who wish to have one can write me. Kindly enclose a self-addressed stamped envelope for easier mailing.
Other devotees in Manila
The person who told Chito Bertol about Padre Pio was Ramon Rodriguez, who went to San Giovanni Rotondo in 1995 to seek cure for his failing eyesight. He was cured.
I was surprised to find Menchie Anckermann wearing a medal of Padre Pio. I found out that she has pictures of Padre Pio in her house. When I visited Fr. Oliver Genuino in Sto. Nino de Molino Parish in Bacoor, I found one wall with framed photos of the saint. Apparently, Fr. Ollie already visited San Giovanni Rotondo several years ago.
And, of course, Rosemarie "Baby" Arenas has been a devotee ever since and she even put up the Padre Pio Healing Foundation. She went to Rome two weeks before the canonization.
Filipino priests in Rome
Fr. Randy Marquez of the Oblates of St. Joseph and his fellow priests attended the Triduum Mass for Padre Pio on June 15 at the Basilica de Santa Maria Maggiore. He told me via text that it was a wonderful, solemn celebration. The whole church was packed with people.
Prayer for conversion
In his lifetime, Padre Pio caused the conversion of many people who went to him for confession. If you wish someone to be converted and to go back to the Lord, pray to Padre Pio for help.
This 21st-century saint teaches us to be holy, to love God with our whole hearts. The time is short. We cannot take God for granted anymore. We cannot bring with us fame and fortune. There is still time to change if you heed the call.
11 Franciscan saints
Eleven Franciscan saints were borne in carrozas during the procession honoring St. Anthony de Padua during his feast day on June 13 at the St. Anthony Shrine in Bustillos, Sampaloc. The images were lent by Ms Evangeline Orozco, who owns the St. Francis of Assisi Institute.
Fr. Willy Benito, rector of the shrine, is asking devotees to help in the reconstruction of the church. Please write him at St. Anthony Shrine, Bustillos, Sampaloc.
Pinyasan fest in Daet
The town of Daet, Camarines Norte in Bicol region is holding the Grand Pinyasan Festival from June 15 to 24.
The festival's highlight is a street dancing parade on June 23, showcasing performers in pineapple-inspired costumes. The parade will also include contingents from other Bicol provinces, who will render traditional dances such as the "Pantomina" of Sorsogon, the "Tinagba" of Iriga City and the "Ibalong" of Legazpi City.
Various sports and cultural events and celebrity appearances are lined up to spice up the weeklong fest, which culminates on June 24 with the Feast of St. John the Baptist, the town's patron saint. A thanksgiving Mass officiated by Bishop Benjamin Almoneda of the Diocese of Daet will be held at 8 a.m. on the feast day at the newly-renovated Cathedral of St. John the Baptist.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-88763689/healing-blind-girl-born.html
If it is true that the bodies are starting to corrupt as it says in the second weblink, then where are the pictures? Why show a video of mummies in Columbia? If you believe the miralces in the Bible, then why is it so difficult to believe that miracles can happen today?BiggAndyy said:
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
You are putting words in my mouth I did not speak. I believe miracles happen, they have happened to me personally. However, I reject, based on sound scripture, that any one person has a gift to volitionally work miracles- not withstanding your out of context scripture quotes. Pay attention to the word "volitional", that is where most lack understanding and reason.Selene said:
Selene
New Member
My friend, you are the atheist who values reason. I already gave you something to work with. It's up to you as the scientist to seek out the information. You can start with Gemma di Giorgi, the girl who was born with no pupils. Her story is on the Internet, and she had traveled all over the country telling her story. You can start with this news report. Her photograph is also in the news article. This girl was born blind in 1939 because she has no pupils, and if atheists can find a lot of information about George Washington's life, then I don't see what the problem is. We have more information in the year 1939 than in the year 1731 (when Washington was born).Lux Veritatis said:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2698893/posts
Brother BiggAndyy, it is clear in the Holy Bible that God worked through the Apostles to perform healing and other miracles. The Apostle Peter was the first Apostle who healed a crippled man (See Acts 3:5-8). The Holy Bible also says that the bones of a holy saint can work a miracle. And so, now you know why we even exhumed bodies of the saints after they have died.BiggAndyy said:
2 Kings 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band [of men]; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
That is wrong.
The Apostles had the Spiritual Gift of healing. That means they could use it at their discretion. They had within themselves the power to heal.
What I argue is that innate ability, given by the Holy Spirit at conversion, is no longer extant. ANY and ALL healings are at the initiation, power, and good pleasure of God and Him alone.
He may choose to heal via a person, object, or location, but it is HIS CHOICE, not ours. We in no way move God to the left or to the right, He does as He sees fit.
I've done plenty of my own research. The reason I keep asking for evidence from you is because you need to learn to provide reasonable evidence to back up your wild claims and not just assume the other person is the one who has to not only find the proof for you but then provide their own argument against.Selene said:
Selene
New Member
I did backed up what I say. I even told you that there are some things in life that science cannot explain. Well, this is one of those things that science cannot explain. What you are looking for is a reasonable explanation simply because you don't believe in miracles. And that is why.....what science cannot explain, science just puts it aside and don't think about it. That is the truth about science.Lux Veritatis said:
For the record, the conclusion I have come to is that she likely has aniridia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniridia). In the video i saw of her (youtube.com/watch?v=Q6ju4HeobGM) she is wearing sunglasses and has trouble with her eyes when she takes them off, likely due to the sensitivity to the light. With aniridia, the eyes lack an iris meaning they cannot adjust to changes in light. If you look at the eyes, they appear to be like black holes. Unfortunately, there are no close up images of her eyes to make a more firm conclusion.
The funny thing is, if God was apparently responsible for this, why wouldn't he grant her perfect vision and not just slightly improved vision where she still has trouble with light? The healing that happened in the Bible always seemed to be complete.
Curiously enough, not even the Vatican mentions this supposed great miracle - http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020616_padre-pio_en.html
The funny thing is, if God was apparently responsible for this, why wouldn't he grant her perfect vision and not just slightly improved vision where she still has trouble with light? The healing that happened in the Bible always seemed to be complete.
Curiously enough, not even the Vatican mentions this supposed great miracle - http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020616_padre-pio_en.html
You provided hearsay accounts, hardly firm evidence. And just "telling" something isn't an argument. You can't just say "oh some things are just unexplainable, therefore God." That doesn't fly, you are putting your god in a box that says that stuff we don't know must be God. But as we learn more, he disappears. His box has gotten much smaller since the beginning of time as we've discovered more.Selene said:
Selene
New Member
The problem with your explaination of aniridia is that Gemma was missing pupils. She was never missing an iris. She has an iris in both eyes. Also, let's be honest here. I also saw the youtube, and it says that she wears glasses to hide the fact that she has no pupils. And the Youtube weblink is found below:Lux Veritatis said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S-mW36lMew
The problem with YOUR explanation is you lack knowledge of the anatomy of the eye. The pupil is the hole in the iris. If she lacks pupils this means she has no irises. If she did have irises, she would therefore have pupils.Selene said:
If you watch the videos of her, when she takes the glasses off, her eyes freak out. It's the light that they can't adapt to without the irises.
Selene
New Member
The iris is the circular diaphragm forming the colored portion of the eye. The pupils are in the center of the iris, which either widens during the dark or gets smaller during light. Gemma has an iris in both eyes, but no pupils and it's the doctors who have examined her. These doctors declared that she has no pupils. I am going by what all the doctors say who have examined her.Lux Veritatis said:
Care to share these medical reports you must necessarily have if you're going to assert so firmly you believe the doctors? Oh wait, you can't. The only sources for this story are religious in nature. If this "miracle" is so grand, there would be much more information available, and the Vatican would certainly have a word or two to say about it. However, the reality is that they rejected the miracle and did not consider it when canonizing Padre Pio.Selene said:
Selene
New Member
That's because you only need two miracles to be canonized as a holy saint.
You need medical reports? That's your job. You're the unbelieving atheist. I already told you that there are some things in life that science cannot explain. Apparently, you are already making your own assumption by declaring Gemma to have aniridia without examining her yourself.Lux Veritatis said:
So that's your excuse? Oh, we'll ignore the MEDICAL MIRACLE in favor of less interesting crap. I'm not buying it.Selene said:
Regardless, one is not required to believe in private revelations or private miracles, this is something the Church teaches.
No, it's not my job. You are making the positive claim of supernaturalism, the burden of proof rests on you. Without proper evidence, I can simply dismiss it as nonsense. I don't have to prove my believe in the natural.Selene said:
Selene
New Member
That is not an excuse. That is the truth. You only need two miracles for canonization. That's why Mother Theresa was not canonized despite that many people in India are trying to pressure the Vatican to canonize her. Furthermore, the Vatican does not brag about the saints because all miracles comes from God....not from the saints.Lux Veritatis said:
I am not surprised that you're not buying it because you were never here to learn about Christianity in the first place. You are correct, we are not required to believe in private revelations or private miracles.....but the Church also teaches that those things which the Church has already declared to be true are to be held as true by the faithful.
Did the Church declare this miracle to be true? Then why do you believe it?Selene said:
And yes, only 2 miracles are required. But that doesn't stop them from recognizing many others. Maybe you need to read about the saints more, the stories and legends are full of apparent miracles, many more than 2 apiece.
Selene
New Member
No, the burden of proof rests on you because you are the atheist who believe in reason. When something that is supernatural appears in your world, it is up to you to find an explanation for it. You are of this world. Christians don't need an explanation because in the first place, Christians are not of this world. And that's something even you can't begin to understand.Lux Veritatis said:
Then we are fundamentally at odds. You claim its up to me to disprove something that, by definition, is without evidence, and not within the natural realm that your god apparently created. I say you have to prove your claims of the supernatural because its exactly that — supernatural. The burden of proof always rests on the one making the assertion. You are asserting supernatural. My position is of the natural, the default position of the human reality.Selene said:
You can go ahead and be satisfied with not knowing. But no one will take you seriously.
For the record, nothing supernatural appears in my world. I don't claim, by any means, to know the answers to everything. However, nothing happens that doesn't have some kind of explanation. The only ones claiming that this happens are those who are trying to protect their faith.
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