Is God outside of time?

[Selene]

Then we are fundamentally at odds. You claim its up to me to disprove something that, by definition, is without evidence, and not within the natural realm that your god apparently created. I say you have to prove your claims of the supernatural because its exactly that — supernatural. The burden of proof always rests on the one making the assertion. You are asserting supernatural. My position is of the natural, the default position of the human reality.

You can go ahead and be satisfied with not knowing. But no one will take you seriously.

For the record, nothing supernatural appears in my world. I don't claim, by any means, to know the answers to everything. However, nothing happens that doesn't have some kind of explanation. The only ones claiming that this happens are those who are trying to protect their faith.

I did tell you that there are some things in life that science cannot explain...and you even agreed. Now that you have come up with the supernatural, YOU are the one who finds yourself at odds. What science cannot explain, science simply puts it aside and don't think about it......that is actually how science deals with the supernatural.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

I did tell you that there are some things in life that science cannot explain...and you even agreed. Now that you have come up with the supernatural, YOU are the one who finds yourself at odds. What science cannot explain, science simply puts it aside and don't think about it......that is actually how science deals with the supernatural.

No, it's not how science deals with the "supernatural." I agree that there are things we can't explain, yet. In your opinion, that means it must be a god. Any good scientist would say that it simply means we don't possess the knowledge or ability to test it. That's why I mentioned "god of the gaps"—you seem to believe that any gap in knowledge we have can be filled by God because it must be supernatural. The problem with that is that when we do learn more and discover more, that gap is filled and God no longer fits there.

I have no problem giving respect to the opinion that God created the natural world and all of its mechanisms and function, and that he built in everything it needs to work. Nature is indeed incredibly complex. But when you insist on being satisfied with not knowing stuff and just saying "must be God," you are shooting yourself in the foot. Without the scientific method, without critical thinking and reasoning, we wouldn't be as advanced as we are today. If you think God is the one and only answer, stick to your prayer and live like the Amish. You have no place using what science and technology have provided.

 

[Selene]

No, it's not how science deals with the "supernatural." I agree that there are things we can't explain, yet. In your opinion, that means it must be a god. Any good scientist would say that it simply means we don't possess the knowledge or ability to test it. That's why I mentioned "god of the gaps"—you seem to believe that any gap in knowledge we have can be filled by God because it must be supernatural. The problem with that is that when we do learn more and discover more, that gap is filled and God no longer fits there.

I have no problem giving respect to the opinion that God created the natural world and all of its mechanisms and function, and that he built in everything it needs to work. Nature is indeed incredibly complex. But when you insist on being satisfied with not knowing stuff and just saying "must be God," you are shooting yourself in the foot. Without the scientific method, without critical thinking and reasoning, we wouldn't be as advanced as we are today. If you think God is the one and only answer, stick to your prayer and live like the Amish. You have no place using what science and technology have provided.

For Christians, it would not matter who is right in this case because the Christians will have nothing to lose. Why? Because if you are right and there is no God, the Christians have nothing to lose. Our life simply ends. But if the Christians are right and there is a God, it is you who will have much to lose because you will be the one to stand before God, and there will be a judgement.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

For Christians, it would not matter who is right in this case because the Christians will have nothing to lose. Why? Because if you are right and there is no God, the Christians have nothing to lose. Our life simply ends. But if the Christians are right and there is a God, it is you who will have much to lose because you will be the one to stand before God, and there will be a judgement.

If that's the case, I find it very hard to believe he would judge me for using the reason he himself gave me. Besides, I'm wagering on the flying spaghetti monster. He promised me eternal italian food in the afterlife. If he doesn't exist, oh well. If he does, more food for me!

Side note — Why did God waste his time building this rational and functional world if he just dips in and messes around whenever he feels like it?

 

[Selene]

If that's the case, I find it very hard to believe he would judge me for using the reason he himself gave me.

Why did he waste his time building this rational and functional world if he just dips in and messes around whenever he feels like it?

Excuse me......but didn't you tell me that knowledge came from Satan??

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Excuse me......but didn't you tell me that knowledge came from Satan??

My bad. Then I guess I'll burn in hell. But of course, so will you. You use knowledge, you take advantage of knowledge… see you in hell!

 

[Selene]

My bad. Then I guess I'll burn in hell. But of course, so will you. You use knowledge, you take advantage of knowledge… see you in hell!

Peace be with you, Brother Lux Veritatis.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Peace be with you, Brother Lux Veritatis.

Pax vobiscum.

 

[aspen]

Limiting your belif system to the nature does not mean that we are required to convince you of the existence of reality outside your limited worldview. Bacteria existed before humans recognised their existence and I am so the fist people to suggest that their were tiny living organisms that made people sick and changed milk into cheese were laughed by the secular fundamentalist of their time.

wow typing on a mobile device sure is limited - no editing possible

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Limiting your belif system to the nature does not mean that we are required to convince you of the existence of reality outside your limited worldview. Bacteria existed before humans recognised their existence and I am so the fist people to suggest that their were tiny living organisms that made people sick and changed milk into cheese were laughed by the secular fundamentalist of their time.

wow typing on a mobile device sure is limited - no editing possible

The difference being that humans are limited to observation of the natural world—that is, all that we can know and is of this universe. If you are going to assert to know something that can't be known by reason, then you must prove it somehow.

 

[dragonfly]

Hey, Lux! I haven't read the beginning of this thread, so I don't know what gems I'm missing, but I know you are missing one gem, and that is that the people who know God exists and who have a living relationship with Him, are those who have done Him the honor of listening to Him.

The biggest hole in your reasoning (I use the word carefully.) is that you assume people who believe in God have no 'reason' to. But it is precisely because their reason tells them they have encountered Him, that they believe.

Until you are willing to take the risk of having an encounter with God, you will remain deaf and blind to the proofs of His existence, because unbelief darkens the understanding. That's one 'reason' the apostle John wrote that His life was the light of men - because in His presence darkness is removed.

To comment on your thread title, God is both inside and outside of time, but when He is inside time, He retains His eternal qualities as well.

 

[Selene]

The difference being that humans are limited to observation of the natural world—that is, all that we can know and is of this universe. If you are going to assert to know something that can't be known by reason, then you must prove it somehow.

And what exactly is your definition of "proof?"

 

[horsecamp]

Genesis 1 :5 IS a permanant record of the exact moment that God created time..


God is the creator of time and it is subject to him.


every thing lays bare before him and are subject to Him .. past present and future .



every thing is possable with God .. He humbled him self and became part of (History(TIME )TO SAVE US FROM OUR SINS.

HE PLANED THIS IN ETERNITY LONG BEFORE HE CREATED TIME..


wHAT DOES God who created time and every thing,, past present future being subject to him and before him mean for you?

could it mean that when you go home to be with Jesus you dont have to waite for loved ones here on earth to join you there in heaven ?,,
That only those OF US on earth have to do the waiting in time. YET YOU beleivers WHO rule with Jesus you are not subject to time any longer..

what comfort for a mother who lost her child knowing her child walks with the creator of time it self .. IS she There with that child and her JESUS ; AS SHE WAITS HERE ON EARTH for the days of her time of grace to end?

Does it mean when your with Jesus there is no waiting like a person on earth has to do ;for judment day and a new glorius body ?

you who are crippled lame or have some other bodly problems . when your with Jesus who makes all things new and Glorius in his LOVING company
.its the Jesus who knows you as his VERY own brother or sister.

walking with the creator of time itself for now is to Glorius to even BEGAIN TO grasp let alone comprehend..


come Lord Jesus be our guest .. is the prayer MANY christians still pray before meals or as revelations puts it ,, come quickly Lord Jesus


not one christian will miss the catching up the real rapture at the end of history THOSE LONG DEAD AND THOSE STILL ALIVE ..AND IT WILL BE MORE GLORIUS THAN WE CAN EVEN BEGAIN TO IMAGINE..

FOR US ON EARTH WE WAITE ------- those in heaven thats a different story --------- they walk with God

Gods blessings

 

[Thereisbutonetrueking]

The creator exists outside of time and our dimension. Not in one of the other dimensions that exist if string theory is true, but a completely different dimension that existed before time.

 

[aspen]

time is a measurement of change. God is perfect and therefore never changes. he is outside of time.

 

[Angelina]

Time has a beginning and an end...God does not. Time was made for mankind. God is outside of time and space.

 

[domenic]

I have heard the argument that God is necessarily outside of time. Is this true?

If we define "time" as a measurement of change (so that we can say something is in the past, is presently happening, or will happen), then God cannot be outside of time. If God was outside of time, he would not be capable of change (for if he did, then he would be in time.) If God cannot change, God cannot create for an action of will requires moving from a state of non-will to will, which requires time (because it is a change.) If God cannot create, he cannot be the creator of the universe.

However, if God is inside of time, then he also cannot be the creator of the universe for time has not always existed, meaning there must be a being greater than God making God not God.

What? Run that past me again?

 

[Tofayel]

We should not think about God, we should think just about his creation. Also philosophy told us that we should not think about zero, we will not get any result and we would be mad.

 

[biggandyy]

The creator exists outside of time and our dimension. Not in one of the other dimensions that exist if string theory is true, but a completely different dimension that existed before time.

Incorrect. God is omnipresent, therefore anyplace you can think of Him existing He is there. Nothing is outside His potence. There is no need to invent a dimension for Him to inhabit, rather, He invented a dimension for US to inhabit.

 

[rstrats]

Angelina,

re: "Time was made for mankind. God is outside of time and space."


So if you had a clock that ran backwards, it would automatically stop at the moment that time was made for mankind?