So - if I understand this correctly - Judas's ministry was authentic (he was chosen by Jesus after all) - even though in the end he was 'a devil'? This one is going to really mess with my head - it's given me a lot to consider. Does that mean that those in Matthew 7 are also authentic in their ministry? I will admit - I am struggling with that concept - it goes against my grain as I would consider them deceivers - but I'm trying to be open minded as though I'm wrong and consider other options.
Is healing in Jesus' name evidence of authenticity?
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So - if I understand this correctly - Judas's ministry was authentic (he was chosen by Jesus after all) - even though in the end he was 'a devil'? This one is going to really mess with my head - it's given me a lot to consider. Does that mean that those in Matthew 7 are also authentic in their ministry? I will admit - I am struggling with that concept - it goes against my grain as I would consider them deceivers - but I'm trying to be open minded as though I'm wrong and consider other options.
Thank you so much for those illustrations. What you wrote about Nathan getting it wrong - but repenting resonates with me. I love repentance - getting things wrong and being able to go to Him and repent. There is such safety, such love, such mercy and such security in illustrations such as these.
But then there are those in Matt 7 - who do not repent. What puzzles me with those isn't that Jesus said "I knew you, but you walked away". He said that He never knew them. For my limited understanding - this means that they were never saved to start with - and what they did was not a gift from God - but either charlatans, or worse demonic. I'm searching though - I'm not convinced of this, just trying to figure it out one way or the other.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Everything you said is true and valid. It is a fact that you don't know what the good is unless you know what the bad is. Comparison is vital. I believe that the gift of discernment is so important today because it helps you sort out the good from the bad. Sad to say the church is full of charlatans wanting to get their 5 minutes of fame and healing is one area that is used for that purpose.
Even people that need healing are sometimes desperate to be healed and they don't want to not be healed as they think that it is a reflection on them and their lack of faith so they will do all they can to help the person praying to get the results they want.
I have prayed for healing in the church and people have got healed but I haven't made a ministry out of it which I can take on the road and use it to make a living.
I have problems with the same verse as you do being as I am a person who is adamant that the new birth is essential for salvation. But if the scripture says that then we have to believe that it is the truth and if it causes us palpitations we have to learn to let it go through to the keeper and get on with what we know is definite and true. God approved of that verse so I have to let him sort it out. In the meantime, I don't see it as an issue as I have got a full book coping with what I do understand.
I have a nagging feeling that my specific application of the meaning of scripture may be too rigid and that it is a bit more nuanced than what we see or understand.
In one sense the NTC was blessed not having the New Testament to draw on which meant they had to deal in what worked, not esoteric ideas or theological concepts. It is clear that they were big on supernatural healing and deliverance and caring for one another. When you understand the background to the NTC you soon see how that was so important to them because the Sanhedrin was big on theory but devoid of reality. They were all show and no know.
The scripture says to seek first the kingdom of God and ALL these things will be added to you. I am sure that if we do this, what we don't know will not be a problem and will be revealed to us in the time of his choosing.
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply, second, the devil is always an imitator of God. and one has to be careful for the evil world is very real. from Egypt even up to now.
Exodus 4:1 "And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee."
Exodus 4:2 "And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod."
Exodus 4:3 "And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it."
Exodus 4:4 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:"
Exodus 4:5 "That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee."
now this,
Exodus 7:8 "And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,"
Exodus 7:9 "When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent."
Exodus 7:10 "And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent."
Exodus 7:11 "Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments."
Exodus 7:12 "For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods."
the difference where was this, Exodus 4:20 "And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand."
God was with Moses. and you better have GOD with you, in the "NOW", and in the "DAY", some vagabond Jews found this out the hard way.
Acts 19:13 "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth."
Acts 19:14 "And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so."
Acts 19:15 "And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?"
Acts 19:16 "And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."
Acts 19:17 "And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified."Acts 19:18 "And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds."
The evil world is nothing to play with, one better have God, the Holy Spirit in them before approaching some of these devils. for GREATER is he that's in you than he that is in the world. Just make sure that you have the "GREATER" one in you first. for if not, one cannot test a spirit by the "SPIRIT", if you yourself don't have the "Spirit:..
PICJAG.
Paul is not always clear. I think he meant no one could say it and mean it -- with a pure and undefiled tongue. I think they could say it using a forked tongue. We need somehow to square what Paul wrote to what Jesus said.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Paul confuses me. He also wrote:
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
I have no idea how to square that with 1 Corinthians 12:3.
Helen
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Excellent post.
Lev 10 1-2
“ And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.”
I liked how you mentioned “making sure that we have HIS Spirit within so we know the difference between what is of God and what is not! So true and right on.
“For me” so much that is going on “in the name of the Lord” , is so obviously not the Lord at all.
But has become stumbling blocks to many. For by seeing such mixture in the church today ..people who cannot discern their right hand from their left, end up “chucking the baby out with the bath water”
Which we know, is Satan’s plan , always , to undermine and throw doubt enough to so that the churches confidence in the true has been destroyed. We are left with lack of faith in operation , and skepticism in the church (and lots of sick Christians )
101G
Well-Known Member
People, believing people, as I see it, are usually mixtures of the things of the old man and the things of God as seen in the new man of us. Of course we all should be growing toward less of us [the old man] and more of Him:
"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30
If He, the Holy Spirit, is not being allowed to work in us to quicken [bring to Life] what we take in [such as what we read or study in the Bible] and clear out what remains of any old habits or erroneous beliefs or knowledge, then our double-mindedness will eventually finally kill us spiritually. Of course, some people will strongly disagree with me on this. but I believe that this double mindedness is the reason Christians have so much trouble spiritually.
Judas was called by Jesus, which means he was called by God. Read I Kings chapter 13 about an unnamed prophet sent out of Judah to the first northern king of Israel, Jeroboam. That man was a man of God, who prophesied about King Josiah who would become king of Judah over 300 later [II Kings 23]. That man of God took a wrong turn and died but his prophecy was still fulfilled in King Josiah ...
"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8
"If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:21-24
Only by the power of God can He increase within us while decreasing the that "old man" part of us, which had the dominion before we met Jesus and still tries to regain in us what he lost. The Holy Spirit can make the difference, but people do quench the Holy Spirit and most church groups effectively teach people to quench the Spirit. Apostle Paul admonished us:
"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I was having a discussion with someone close to me the other day. The claim that was put forward was this:
If someone in ministry prays for someone else to get healed in the name of Jesus - and that person is healed - that the person could only be healed in Jesus name if that's what was prayed - and therefore it is evidence of a persons ministry being authentic.
My perspective (which may be quite wrong which is why I raise it here) - is that this is a dangerous precedence to set to know if the ministry is authentic or not. The scripture that was in my mind was Matthew 7:22 - "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
My current understanding is that using signs and wonders to discern a persons ministry as being authentic is a poor standard, and that the scriptures should be our foundation reference point. Signs and wonders is what we will see in the end from the anti-christ and his minions.
I have heard others mention that the Holy Spirit will tell them if a ministry is authentic, but even in this I have concerns - because from the same group of people I hear many make claims they've heard from the Holy Spirit that contradict each other - all convinced that the voice they've heard is God's and everyone else is wrong.
Would you disagree with my concerns that making the statement above is dangerous and can set people up for deception, and if so can you please help me see this (from scripture).
Many people make this mistake, because of not reading in context. The text in Matthew 7:22 is not against signs and wonders in the name of Jesus as if they could be fake. It is the next verse which you left off. 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ You see, once you have the Spirit enabling you with power, the number one reason for that is to be dead to sin. If you quench the Spirit and turn again to being a slave to sin, you are not abiding in Christ, therefore Christ never knew you.
Therefore, the subject is not about gifts, but fruit. Sin is bad fruit. Look at the context of the whole chapter of Matthew 7 (not copied here).1 John 3:4 "sin is lawlessness."
Abiding is like becoming one in marriage. And Adam knew his wife and she conceived.
1 John 3:21-24:
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. (1 John 3:9) Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
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Thanks for your reply Marksman! I certainly am not against healing itself - and believe we are all commanded to pray for healing (such as James 5). So to clarify - my comment isn't against healing - but regarding discernment of whether one's ministry is true or false based on whether a healing in the name of Jesus is seen.
I have no problems with what scripture says either. I believe scripture to be the infallible word of God. What I do have a problem with is my understanding or interpretation of that scripture, or how others (particularly false ministers) use scripture and twist it.
I find it significant that even Satan himself used scripture to tempt Jesus, and Jesus used scripture to rebuke Satan. This encourages me in my search to make sure all scripture complements each other - and when it doesn't - then that's a flag to indicate that it's been understood incorrectly, or misapplied to a situation - such as what Satan attempted to do.
In the past - when I see something that doesn't seem to add up and have raised questions - I've had people encourage me to ignore it and put it aside, and not to get wrapped up in it.
I struggle with this -because my desire is to dig deeper into it to find out why - because I don't believe the true understanding of scripture will be at fault - so if something's not adding up - it must be my understanding or the way it is presented. I know plenty of times I have not been able to find a reason (at that time) - but instead of ignoring it and continuing on in bliss ignorance - I'm very careful not to base too much on my understanding of those scriptures until I do have a revelation of how they complement each other.
Thanks again!
Excellent post.
Lev 10 1-2
“ And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.”
I liked how you mentioned “making sure that we have HIS Spirit within so we know the difference between what is of God and what is not! So true and right on.
“For me” so much that is going on “in the name of the Lord” , is so obviously not the Lord at all.
But has become stumbling blocks to many. For by seeing such mixture in the church today ..people who cannot discern their right hand from their left, end up “chucking the baby out with the bath water”
Which we know, is Satan’s plan , always , to undermine and throw doubt enough to so that the churches confidence in the true has been destroyed. We are left with lack of faith in operation , and skepticism in the church (and lots of sick Christians )
Thanks for your post Helen.
This is where I see two ditches/gutters to the narrow road. One on the left (such as people dismissing the lot), and the other on the right (being accepting everything).
Those who have discovered themselves in the right gutter are so focused on never falling into it again and staying away from it that we risk falling into the gutter on the other side (or throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak).
As for so much going on in the name of the Lord - Amen sister! That is precisely what my concern that raised this topic is about. We need The Holy Spirit to guide us in truth - however with so many professing that they are all lead by The Holy Spirit - and all going in different directions - I'm convinced many who believe they have heard from The Holy Spirit have indeed not. Some of them may be straight out liars - but I suspect many are well meaning genuine people that are confused, and hearing from other spirits without knowing how to discern.
I think that's where it's so relevant that we need to test the spirits according to 1 John 4. However like @Guiliano - I'm struggling to see exactly how this works. It seems obvious that someone can utter the words "Jesus is Lord" such as an actor reading a script - so does this speak more about them speaking in the spirit? ie: The spirit that they're following is unable to confess that Jesus is Lord unless it is the Holy Spirit that they are hearing from? This gets way out of my area of understanding - but I think it's extremely relevant to the topic as well - and I would love to gain more understanding on it, as I believe in part it is key to discerning the truth amongs the lies.
Hi CharismaticLady,
Thanks for your reponse. You bring up an excellent point about the subject being about fruit, and I believe that is an important part of the correct understanding.
But when I expand the context even further - it appears as though this is linked to wolves in sheeps clothing, as the verses that precede it address both fruit, and false prophets. And just before that, the wide and narrow gate. There seems to be a common theme throughout the wider I go.
ie: If I read Matthew 7:13-27 - there seems to be a common theme, that starts off warning us about the wide and narrow gates, and then onto false prophets. It goes on to say (as you have mentioned) knowing them by their fruits. Immediately preceding that is the verse above where Jesus talks about what appears to be the same people doing things in His name - to where He says that He never knew them, and then following that goes on to tell people to build on the rock, not the sand.
As you have mentioned, and I would agree that the verse is not against signs and wonders themselves - but I do believe it is linked with wolves in sheep's clothing and a warning indeed that false prophets will come and perform these signs and wonders.
This is precisely the reason why I am concerned about the statement that discernment on whether a person's faith or ministry is authentic from God by healing (or other miracles) and can set people up for deception to be taken away by false ministers that Jesus warned about.
However this does bring about an interesting point that shows I may have missed something significant - because my thought as per the original post is to compare with scripture. (While I still believe that this is a correct method) - however what I have missed is what Jesus mentioned in these verses - which you pointed out - that we will know them by their fruit. Thank you for raising that.
The question then is - what fruit? Is this the perceived miracles? Or is it the end results of their ministry (far after they have left the stage and people have gone home)? Or is this the gospel message that they preach? Or is it something else? Or a combination thereof?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I think the signs and wonders just mean that you cannot count on someone with even signs and wonders to have good fruit. The signs and wonders is a height of ministry. A high caliber. Romans 11 tells us the gifts of God are irrevocable. So someone can start out in the Spirit and be gifted, but then get full of themselves and perhaps become a lover of money, and extort his congregation. They become wicked, and are lost. They never actually abided in Jesus and He in them.
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
I would guess that not all healing claims from these meetings are authentic, but I have heard testimonies of people who were actually healed at these meetings. Praise God that He still heals today! I've experienced His healing.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
You are to be commended. Too many people take one verse and say "There you are the bible proves it." That is known as proof-texting and one can use that to make the bible say anything they want it to.
One cannot speak with authority on anything until they have first investigated the scripture to see what it says about a particular topic which means looking at all the passages that deal with the subject matter. In addition, I always seek out the context and background to scripture to give me a greater understanding of what is being said.
I will give you an example. There are those out there who claim the bible gives authority to women in ministry and leadership and their authority for that is Debra, Junia/s, and Lydia. They completely ignore the instruction in 1 Timothy and Titus which is a comprehensive explanation of leadership and ministry in the church.
Digging is a wonderful quality of the serious bible student so keep digging.
(LITV) And these (Bereans) were nobler than those in Thessalonica, for they received the Word with all readiness, daily examining the Scriptures if these things are so. Acts 17:11
QUOTE=
"Scoot, post: 772549, member: 8745"]I was having a discussion with someone close to me the other day. The claim that was put forward was this:
If someone in ministry prays for someone else to get healed in the name of Jesus - and that person is healed - that the person could only be healed in Jesus name if that's what was prayed - and therefore it is evidence of a persons ministry being authentic.
My perspective (which may be quite wrong which is why I raise it here) - is that this is a dangerous precedence to set to know if the ministry is authentic or not. The scripture that was in my mind was Matthew 7:22 - "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
My current understanding is that using signs and wonders to discern a persons ministry as being authentic is a poor standard, and that the scriptures should be our foundation reference point. Signs and wonders is what we will see in the end from the anti-christ and his minions.
I have heard others mention that the Holy Spirit will tell them if a ministry is authentic, but even in this I have concerns - because from the same group of people I hear many make claims they've heard from the Holy Spirit that contradict each other - all convinced that the voice they've heard is God's and everyone else is wrong.
Would you disagree with my concerns that making the statement above is dangerous and can set people up for deception, and if so can you please help me see this (from scripture).
[/QUOTE
=======================================================
Are your concerns because of what God has shown you from Scripture , in Harmony with all of His Plan and Purpose,
or for some other reason(s) ?
So far as your understanding, simply from this one post, you have got it down right, if you are trusting our heavenly Father to direct your steps.
If you start following any ministry trusting them, or trusting signs or wonders, or trusting man's authority (like those who follow the shrowd or other false signs and visions or apparations) , then that is the wrong direction and is a cursed direction.
If you keep following Jesus, Listening to Him, as His Word Says,
then His Promise is for you, His Protection is for you, His Guidance is Promised and sure and certain and true,
just as His Word Says over and over .....
"Scoot, post: 772549, member: 8745"]I was having a discussion with someone close to me the other day. The claim that was put forward was this:
If someone in ministry prays for someone else to get healed in the name of Jesus - and that person is healed - that the person could only be healed in Jesus name if that's what was prayed - and therefore it is evidence of a persons ministry being authentic.
My perspective (which may be quite wrong which is why I raise it here) - is that this is a dangerous precedence to set to know if the ministry is authentic or not. The scripture that was in my mind was Matthew 7:22 - "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
My current understanding is that using signs and wonders to discern a persons ministry as being authentic is a poor standard, and that the scriptures should be our foundation reference point. Signs and wonders is what we will see in the end from the anti-christ and his minions.
I have heard others mention that the Holy Spirit will tell them if a ministry is authentic, but even in this I have concerns - because from the same group of people I hear many make claims they've heard from the Holy Spirit that contradict each other - all convinced that the voice they've heard is God's and everyone else is wrong.
Would you disagree with my concerns that making the statement above is dangerous and can set people up for deception, and if so can you please help me see this (from scripture).
[/QUOTE
=======================================================
Are your concerns because of what God has shown you from Scripture , in Harmony with all of His Plan and Purpose,
or for some other reason(s) ?
So far as your understanding, simply from this one post, you have got it down right, if you are trusting our heavenly Father to direct your steps.
If you start following any ministry trusting them, or trusting signs or wonders, or trusting man's authority (like those who follow the shrowd or other false signs and visions or apparations) , then that is the wrong direction and is a cursed direction.
If you keep following Jesus, Listening to Him, as His Word Says,
then His Promise is for you, His Protection is for you, His Guidance is Promised and sure and certain and true,
just as His Word Says over and over .....
QUOTE=
"Giuliano, post: 775194, member: 8320"]Paul is not always clear. I think he meant no one could say it and mean it -- with a pure and undefiled tongue. I think they could say it using a forked tongue. We need somehow to square what Paul wrote to what Jesus said.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Paul confuses me. He also wrote:
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
I have no idea how to square that with 1 Corinthians 12:3.[/QUOTE
=============================================
How to "square that" is really more simple than anything.
First of importance, of course, is that you believe all God's Word is True. This is absolute.
(Note that it is not necessarily Paul that confuse you - Paul spoke, did and wrote as Jesus taught Him, as the Heavenly Father directed him, as he was chosen for by the Father. Thus the confusion is most likely from the stories or even false statements from false teachers about Paul and about Scripture. )
"Giuliano, post: 775194, member: 8320"]Paul is not always clear. I think he meant no one could say it and mean it -- with a pure and undefiled tongue. I think they could say it using a forked tongue. We need somehow to square what Paul wrote to what Jesus said.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Paul confuses me. He also wrote:
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
I have no idea how to square that with 1 Corinthians 12:3.[/QUOTE
=============================================
How to "square that" is really more simple than anything.
First of importance, of course, is that you believe all God's Word is True. This is absolute.
(Note that it is not necessarily Paul that confuse you - Paul spoke, did and wrote as Jesus taught Him, as the Heavenly Father directed him, as he was chosen for by the Father. Thus the confusion is most likely from the stories or even false statements from false teachers about Paul and about Scripture. )
Hi Joseph,
My concerns are coming from seeing me separate further from some people I trust and respect, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm falling away, being blinded, or whether they're becoming more 'liberal' which is what it appears from from my perspective - either way trying to gain a better understanding:
They say that if a minister prays in the name of Jesus and a healing takes place - that is evidence that their ministry is authentic, and therefore I should be able to base my trust in what the ministry says - and I should definitely not challenge what is being taught as that is showing division or discord.
I on the other hand have the view that looking to healing and other miracles as a sign of evidence that the ministry is authentic and can be followed is a dangerous precedent to take - that doing so (and teaching others to do likewise) is setting up people for deception because the bible shows us that many don't know Jesus at all - yet are able to perform things "in His name", and that comparing what is taught with scripture is the only sure way to know whether a ministry is authentic or not. I am also concerned that there is a growing number of charlatans today that primarily use wonders to wow and impress their prospective followers, so not only do I have concerns that the statement is false - but it is also severely dangerous.
Of course - I also understand that it is possible to misunderstand or misinterpret scripture so that I could be disagreeing or doubting someone who is a true minister of God - which is why it's so important to be humble and desire to seek the truth of what scripture says instead of read into it my current beliefs - but regardless of this - I hold to scripture being the source today of what is authentic and what is not, not whether it appears they preform miracles.
But they on the other hand show that Jesus and the disciples used miracles to prove the authenticity of their ministry. I notice that even cesationists like John McArthur appear to hold that the purpose of miracles was to authenticate their ministry (although they deny those gifts today), so if those gifts are truly available still today (holding a continuist view), using that same logic - I can see why others have a concern with my stance - as it appears it could be indicative that they are authentic.
At the end of the day I'm not trying to prove I'm right - I'm just wanting to find the truth - whether I'm right or wrong.
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Jesus was clear that the person's 'faith' can only help them. I have followed Jesus around and know this.
Only people who really believed got cured, unless he got involved and forgave you himself like with the cripple at Peters house. Or the Blind peoples. Or being at some Mary Apparition site! But that must be faith based also!
Only people who really believed got cured, unless he got involved and forgave you himself like with the cripple at Peters house. Or the Blind peoples. Or being at some Mary Apparition site! But that must be faith based also!
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