Is Hell a place of torment?

[Nameaboveallnames]

(Continued from my previous post)

The third underlying Greek word that is translated into English as "hell" in the KJV of the Bible is "tartaroō:"

G5020 - tartaroō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G5020 - ταρταρόω tartaróō, tar-tar-o'-o; from Τάρταρος Tártaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:—cast down to hell.

www.blueletterbible.org

This word only appears once in the following verse of scripture:

2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, G5020 and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

If you follow the link to this word, and if you look where it says "Root Word (Etymology)," then you will see the following:

"From Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell)."

Do you know what the demons think about this abyss? They think that it is A PLACE OF TORMENT.

Luk 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
Luk 8:29
(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
Luk 8:30
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
Luk 8:31
And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep. G12

The underlying Greek word that is translated into English as "deep" in verse 31 is "abyssos," and it is from this Greek word that we derive our English word "abyss." Again, this "abyss" or this "hell" is A PLACE OF TORMENT.

If you truly are a Berean, then stop corrupting God's word.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
In the movie "Shawshank Redemption" a man is given two life sentences for
murders he didn't commit. At first he feels very strongly that the truth will
come out that he's innocent and doesn't belong in prison: he expects to
eventually be exonerated and set free.

Well, one of the old-timers cautioned him about that with the advice: "Hope
is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane. It's no use on the inside.
You'd better get used to that idea."

I'd imagine that most new arrivals in Hell need some time to get used to the
idea that it is what it is, i.e. they're never getting out.

People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ,
but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I
won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by
some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000
years ago. Whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no
clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been
down in the netherworld all this time.

It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years. I've been on the
Earth for just 81, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past that
it seems more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; 81 years
compared to 50,000 isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the
bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the
futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean.

But just think: time stands still in Hell: it's for the now; it's an existence.
People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin serving a sentence expectin
to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping
out to Afghanistan. No, people in Hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're
in a rut.

Were Hell a normal penal colony like San Quentin or Riker's Island; then I
think most folks would eventually settle down and accept it as a way of life.
But the element of fire makes adjustment very difficult. If only there was at
least some water to help folks beat the heat. And maybe recreation and/or
something to occupy their minds like reading, writing, art, and construction
projects. I really don't know how people keep from running mad with
insanity from mental atrophy down there. And where do they sit down; on
top of each other?
_

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

If you truly are a Berean, then stop corrupting God's word.

Exactly.

Hell is in fact a place of torment.

 

[Berean]

Here is what Jesus had to say about hades:

Luk 16:23-25

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.​

This text is part of a parable: the story of the rich man and Lazarus. We understand that the rich man symbolizes the Jewish nation. At the time this parable was told, and for a long period before, the Jews lived in luxury every day, being the favored recipients of God's blessings. Lazarus symbolizes those who were out of favor with God. While this group included tax collectors and sinners from Israel, primarily they were Gentiles: all nations except the Israelites. At the time this parable was spoken, these Gentiles were completely lacking the special Divine blessings that Israel had. They were positioned at the rich man's gate. When Israel, as a nation, rejected Christ, the 'Rich Man' quickly found himself in a state of rejection: facing tribulation and suffering. Since that time, Israel has continued to endure such hardships.

In the parable, the end of the Jewish state is clearly shown by the symbol of death, while their scattering among the nations is represented by the symbol of burial. Our Lord added a third symbol: In hell [hades, the grave], he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away. The dead cannot lift their eyes, see anything near or far, or have conversations; it is clearly stated: "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave;" and the dead are described as those who "go down into silence" (Eccl. 9:10; Psa. 115:17).

But the Lord wished to show that great sufferings or "torments" would be added to the Jews as a nation after their national dissolution and burial, and that they would plead in vain for release at the hand of the formerly despised Gentiles. And history has borne out this parabolic prophecy.

Mar 9:43-48

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

As I said previously in another post, to take these verses literally, one would have to advocate the literal cutting off of one's hand and foot and the plucking out of one's eye. That said, It's worth noting that verses 44 and 46, along with part of 45, are absent in the oldest Greek manuscripts, while verse 48, which is identical, appears in all manuscripts. We present the text as it is found in these ancient and trustworthy manuscripts: "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off: it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and go into hell ("gehenna"), into the fire that will never be quenched. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off: it is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell ["gehenna"]. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell ["gehenna"] fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

The lesson here is similar to what Jesus explained in Matt. 5:29, 30. But what about the eternal worms and the unquenchable fire? We respond that in the literal "gehenna", which is the foundation of our Lord's example, the bodies of animals, etc., often fell onto ledges of rocks rather than into the fire that burned below. Exposed like this, they would breed worms and be destroyed by them, just as completely and certainly as those that were burned. No one was permitted to disturb the contents of this valley; therefore, the worm and the fire together fulfilled the task of destruction: "the fire was not quenched and the worms died not." This doesn't suggest an everlasting fire or eternal worms. The idea is that the worms did not die off and leave the carcasses behind, but continued and finished the process of destruction. The same goes for the fire: it wasn't quenched, it kept burning until everything was consumed. Similarly, if a house were on fire and the flames could not be put out, burning until the structure was ruined, we could rightly refer to it as an "unquenchable fire." Our Lord aimed to convey the idea of the completeness and finality of the Second Death, represented by "gehenna". Everyone who enters the Second Death will be thoroughly and completely destroyed forever; no ransom will ever be provided again for anyone (Rom. 6:9); for no one deserving of life will be cast into the Second Death, or lake of fire, but only those who embrace unrighteousness after learning the truth. Not only in the examples above is the Second Death clearly illustrated by "gehenna", but it's also clear that the same Teacher used the same imagery of the Valley of Hinnom to signify the same concept in the symbolic language of Revelation, although there it's referred to as a "lake of fire."

Elsewhere, Jesus said that this place of unquenchable or "everlasting fire" was prepared for the devil and his angels.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Mat. 25:41)

This place of "everlasting fire" is a place of FIERY TORMENT.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.' (Rev. 20:10)

Again a place of utter destruction.

 

[Truly]

Berean how do you mean a place of utter destruction from the words,

Rev 20:10..."tormented day and night for ever and ever"?

In regards to torment itself and time periods, the scriptures can differentiate between time periods, for example earlier in Rev 9:5

Rev 9:5 "that they should be tormented five months"

Whereas in Rev 20:10 "tormented day and night for ever and ever"

What is the difference (in your understanding) between those being tormented for five months (in Rev 9:5) and those to be tormented day and night for ever and ever (in Rev 20:10)?

Here we have the devil and his angels which deceiveth the whole world are cast into the earth here

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And the same being cast into the lake of fire as shown here

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The cursed are cast into the same everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels as shown here

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

These would be those not found in the book of life

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

This doesn't suggest an everlasting fire or eternal worms.

What a bunch of baloney.

In Revelation 20:10, the devil is cast into the same lake of fire that the beast and the false prophet were cast into 1000 years earlier (Rev. 19:20).

Learn to be like the Bereans, or change your username.

 

[Space_Karen]

The concept of hell merely suggests people receive what they deserve eventually.

Either in this world or the next.

And why should that be controversial.

 

[Jay Ross]

What a bunch of baloney.

In Revelation 20:10, the devil is cast into the same lake of fire that the beast and the false prophet were cast into 1000 years earlier (Rev. 19:20).

Learn to be like the Bereans, or change your username.

Yes, what you wrote was a bunch of baloney.

Satan, the best and the Little Horn/ False prophet and the kings of the earth were all judged at the same time and found wanting and so they were all gathered together and imprisoned in a pit, i.e. the Bottomless Pit, at the same time for many days, which we are told in the Book of Revelation was for 1000 solar years. This pit was unlocked after the 1,000 years of their imprisonment and they marched over the face of the earth to finally come up against Jerusalem during the little while period.

In Rev 19 we are told that the Beast and the False Prophet were captured first and dispatched immediately into the Lake of Fire. Shortly afterwards Satan was also captured and dispatched into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the False Prophet had also been dispatched into a short time earlier.

Rev 19 and Rev 20 are parallel story lines having the same starting point for each chapter with the same ending point for the judged heavenly hosts ending up in the Lake of Fire before the Final Judgement of mankind begins.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Yes, what you wrote was a bunch of baloney.

Satan, the best and the Little Horn/ False prophet and the kings of the earth were all judged at the same time and found wanting and so they were all gathered together and imprisoned in a pit, i.e. the Bottomless Pit, at the same time for many days, which we are told in the Book of Revelation was for 1000 solar years. This pit was unlocked after the 1,000 years of their imprisonment and they marched over the face of the earth to finally come up against Jerusalem during the little while period.

In Rev 19 we are told that the Beast and the False Prophet were captured first and dispatched immediately into the Lake of Fire. Shortly afterwards Satan was also captured and dispatched into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the False Prophet had also been dispatched into a short time earlier.

Rev 19 and Rev 20 are parallel story lines having the same starting point for each chapter with the same ending point for the judged heavenly hosts ending up in the Lake of Fire before the Final Judgement of mankind begins.

Only in your delusional mind. There is a timeframe of 1000 years between the beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and Satan being cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Jay Ross]

Only in your delusional mind. There is a timeframe of 1000 years between the beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and Satan being cast into the lake of fire.

So be it. You can believe what you want to believe. I am not the one who is delusional in my understanding of the Book of Revelation.

Armageddon will occur in around 20 years' time when Isaiah 24:21-22 will be fulfilled and God removes the beasts of the field from the face of the earth to bring peace upon the earth for 1,000 years. Armageddon is found mentioned in Rev 16:12-16 and we have already seen the three foul frog like spirits performing signs and wonders that were seen all around the world live as their signs and wonders unfolded as the first part in drawing all the kings of the earth to assemble at the place called Armageddon to be judged by God and imprisoned for many days to await the time of their punishment.

I am patient and will allow God to prove whether or not I am right or wrong in my understanding off when the Armageddon judgement will take place and who are judged and imprisoned for their deeds against Israel.

Oh well, we will see this prove all if God's timing.

Shalom

 

[PinSeeker]

Funny how all these conversations end up in the same place, even if they were far from that at the beginning...

To the OP, yes, hell is a place of eternal torment, but people have different ideas about that torment... what it is, who administers or inflicts it and how...

Many even turn it from 'torment' to 'torture,' as if everyone is eternally waterboarded, or shocked, or physically beaten or burned in literal fire... by God or His angels, or... I mean, all that is quite ridiculous, really.

The torment endured in hell is an internal anguish, and a loss of all hope. This might sound relatively mild, but... no... <shudder>... this is their utter destruction But we should be able to see in Jesus's parable in Luke 16; this is "their worm that will not die" (Mark 9). This is the "flame" they are in and cannot escape, their "thirst" which can never be quenched, their eternal existence in this anguish/torment.

Grace and peace to you, Berean.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Funny how all these conversations end up in the same place, even if they were far from that at the beginning...

All topics have related side issues

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

But we should be able to see in Jesus's parable in Luke 16; this is "their worm that will not die" (Mark 9). This is the "flame" they are in and cannot escape, their "thirst" which can never be quenched, their eternal existence in this anguish/torment.

Not quite.

As I rightly noted before, when Jesus spoke of unquenchable fire and the worms that die not, he was quoting the following from the prophet Isaiah:

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (Isa. 66:22-24)

As an OT prophet, Isaiah had the Spirit of Christ in him (1 Pet. 1:11), and Jesus was clearly speaking through him in what we just read. Yes, Jesus is the one before whom everybody will worship in the latter days, and he will be situated in Jerusalem at that time as many portions of scripture foretell. The Greek word that was used to describe this "fire" in Mark's gospel is "geenna" or "gehenna,"

G1067 - geenna - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1067 - γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin ( and ); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.

www.blueletterbible.org

and that is the Greek transliteration of "the valley of Hinnom."

Search 'gehenna' on etymonline

Search results for 'gehenna' on etymonline

www.etymonline.com

gehenna(n.)

"hell," 1620s (earlier "a place of torture," 1590s), from Church Latin gehenna (Tertullian), from Greek geenna, from post-biblical Hebrew gehinnom "Hell, place of fiery torment for the dead," figurative use of the place name Ge Hinnom "the Valley of Hinnom," southwest of Jerusalem, where, according to Jeremiah xix.5, children were sacrificed to Moloch. Middle English had gehenne (late 15c.) from French gehenne.

Per Jeremiah 19:2, we know that this valley is located by the entry of the eastern gate of Jerusalem. Per the Spirit of Christ in Isaiah, we know that when people come to worship Jesus in Jerusalem in the future, they will look upon the carcases of those who have transgressed against him because their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, but they shall be an abhorring to all flesh. This is what we ought to be believing and proclaiming if we are truly Christians.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Hell: The Great Equalizer

● Isa 14:12-17 . . For you said to yourself: I will ascend to heaven and set
my throne above God's stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far
away in the north. I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most
High.

. . But instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to
its lowest depths. Everyone there will stare at you and ask: Can this be the
one who shook the earth and the kingdoms of the world? Is this the one who
destroyed the land and made it into a wilderness? Is this the king who
demolished the world's greatest cities and had no mercy on his captives?

In context; that passage targets an ancient Babylonian king, but serves to
illustrate an important point: Hell is a level field. Look around you at the
celebrities, the socialites, the news anchors, the politicians, the stock
brokers, the empire builders, the financial giants, the television moguls, the
movie-makers, the civic leaders, the entrepreneurs, the fashion leaders, the
intellectuals, the best-sellers, the Rock and Roll Hall of Famers, the Olympic
stars and professional athletes, the winners of Oscar, Tony and Grammy
awards. In Hell, those kinds of people are just one more skull in an ever
growing stockpile of losers.

● Luke 16:19-23 . .There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine
linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named
Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's
table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

. .The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to
Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hades, where he
was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance, with Lazarus
by his side.

Can you just imagine that rich man's chagrin to see that homeless bum, who
at one time dumpster-dived the garbage, now in comfort while he himself is
in misery? Isn't it interesting that the bum's name is given, but the rich
man's isn't. Likely because he's now a forgotten man who no longer matters.
_

 

[PinSeeker]

Not quite.

<chuckles>

As I rightly noted before, when Jesus spoke of unquenchable fire and the worms that die not, he was quoting the following from the prophet Isaiah:

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (Isa. 66:22-24)

As an OT prophet, Isaiah had the Spirit of Christ in him (1 Pet. 1:11), and Jesus was clearly speaking through him in what we just read. Yes, Jesus is the one before whom everybody will worship in the latter days, and he will be situated in Jerusalem at that time as many portions of scripture foretell. The Greek word that was used to describe this "fire" in Mark's gospel is "geenna" or "gehenna,"

G1067 - geenna - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1067 - γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin ( and ); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.

www.blueletterbible.org

and that is the Greek transliteration of "the valley of Hinnom."

Search 'gehenna' on etymonline

Search results for 'gehenna' on etymonline

www.etymonline.com

gehenna(n.)
"hell," 1620s (earlier "a place of torture," 1590s), from Church Latin gehenna (Tertullian), from Greek geenna, from post-biblical Hebrew gehinnom "Hell, place of fiery torment for the dead," figurative use of the place name Ge Hinnom "the Valley of Hinnom," southwest of Jerusalem, where, according to Jeremiah xix.5, children were sacrificed to Moloch. Middle English had gehenne (late 15c.) from French gehenne.

Per Jeremiah 19:2, we know that this valley is located by the entry of the eastern gate of Jerusalem. Per the Spirit of Christ in Isaiah, we know that when people come to worship Jesus in Jerusalem in the future, they will look upon the carcases of those who have transgressed against him because their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, but they shall be an abhorring to all flesh. This is what we ought to be believing and proclaiming if we are truly Christians.

We disagree, respectfully. I know very well from where Jesus was quoting and to what He was referring in the Old Testament. I would submit that He was using these as pictures... images... visual aids... of far greater, real realities, if you will, much like His "but I tell you" statements regarding certain aspects of the Law in the Sermon on the Mount. So, I would just point out something you are probably very well aware of, that our God is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 9:3; Hebrews 12:29).

Ohhh, these conversations can be so... fiery, torturous, and tormenting... See what I did there? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

But we should be able to see in Jesus's parable in Luke 16; this is "their worm that will not die" (Mark 9). This is the "flame" they are in and cannot escape, their "thirst" which can never be quenched, their eternal existence in this anguish/torment.

The "hell" (hades) of Luke 16 is not the same "hell" (gehenna) of Mark chapter 9. The former is below the earth, and the latter is on this earth. Also, the former will eventually be cast into the latter (Rev. 20:13-14).

 

[PinSeeker]

The "hell" (hades) of Luke 16 is not the same "hell" (gehenna) of Mark chapter 9. The former is below the earth, and the latter is on this earth. Also, the former will eventually be cast into the latter (Rev. 20:13-14).

I understand your position. Ah yes, the lake of fire... Like I said, all these conversations come around to the same things. Again, our God is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 9:3; Hebrews 12:29).

Grace and peace to you.