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Featured Is holiness actually attainable in this life? Can a man cease from all sin?

Discussion in 'Christian Spirituality Forum' started by Gideons300, Nov 18, 2020.

  1. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

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    Relationships drive church attendance.
    It's become a "good guy club" for many people...

    But that doesn't mean that they actually have a personal relationship with God.

    And then these marginal Christians are asked to lead because of popularity.

    And that's how it goes.

    Good intentions without good substance behind it.

    Been going this way for centuries now.
    And where we would like to have the ideal church to be a part of...I'm not exactly an ideal member to have. YMMV.

    This is just what we have...and we can either accept it or not. But then we are going to have a problem with our Heavenly Father if we don't accept what we got.
     
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  2. 2nd Timothy Group

    2nd Timothy Group Well-Known Member

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    Is holiness actually attainable in this life? Can a man cease from all sin?

    The answer lies in this concept: Can the speed limit be broken if there is no speed limit to break?

    Romans 4:14-15 NKJV - "For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression."
     
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  3. Gideons300

    Gideons300 Well-Known Member

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    I actually think, concerning your last statement, that it is quite the opposite. If we are content to have status quo Christianity, with no longing in our hearts for the Spirit to lift us out of our acceptance of our belief that we cannot overcome the world, the flesh and the devil until physical death does what the indwelling Christ cannot, then how to we differ from those lukewarm believers long ago who said "We have need of nothing."?

    Every great move of God has been preceded by a brokenness and hunger of God's people who refused to accept going-through-the-motions Christianity as the best God can do. And as the enemy comes in like a flood, as we are witnessing in an unprecedented way right now, should we not be crying out to our God to save us, not just from the penalty for our sins we far too often continue to do, but from the power of sin that has no right to exert control over His own?

    blessings,

    Gids
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  4. Gideons300

    Gideons300 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed! So, of we are still sinning, what does that still tell us about our relationship to the law?

    We are told that we are dead and that sin has no power over us any longer. But this truth must be believed in order for its power to be released, which leads us to but one conclusion.

    When we finally refuse to be content with head knowledge that we died when Christ died, and actually reckon ourselves truly dead to sin and its power and authority over us, and appropriate, by faith, His death as ours as well, we will be amazed at what happens next.

    blessings,

    Gideon
     
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  5. 2nd Timothy Group

    2nd Timothy Group Well-Known Member

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    Beautifully said.
     
  6. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    (All replys applicable to a Heartfully Converted man IN Christ.)

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Yes.


    Yes.

    Yes.

    Disagree.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  7. Gideons300

    Gideons300 Well-Known Member

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    Being able to sin will always be physically possible as long as we are still housed in our bodies of flesh. However, being able to and actually committing sin are two very different things. If God is the one doing the keeping, even though we CAN, we DON'T.

    God tells us that if we abide in Him, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That is a promise we can hold onto, and if we do, we will be amazed at the results, not by our efforts but of His efforts in us.

    blessings,

    Gideon
     
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  8. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Disagree.


    Sure.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  9. Gideons300

    Gideons300 Well-Known Member

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    Just out of curiosity, how does one abide in Christ, not fulfill the lusts of the flesh and still continue sinning?

    Thanks in advance.

    Gids
     
  10. 2nd Timothy Group

    2nd Timothy Group Well-Known Member

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    It seems wise to consider the concept of Sanctification. This seems to be a path of learning to sin less and less. If the Sinful Nature has been lifted, we've still got to contend with our memories of what sin is . . . and how good that sin made us feel. We have to "buffet our bodies."

    1 John 2:1 NIV - "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

    Part of getting old is what it means to sin less and less. In our sufferings of becoming old, the ability to sin reduces incredibly. But if and wehn we do sin, even thought the Sin Nature has been lifted, Christ paid the debt for that sin, thus because of his One-Time Sacrifice, we are Eternally Purified, thus always viewed as Perfected before God. Because the Sin Nature has been lifted, and because the debt for our sins has been Eternally paid, we are considered Righteous and Holy before the Lord, exactly as were the men and women of times past, mentioned in Hebrews 11, the Great Hall of Faith.

    Yes? No? :)

    This is very important discussion. And it is important that we all have this right. I hope that I am right, but you never know. I sure wish that we could all agree . . . for when we do, it means that God is teaching us all, instead of human teaching human.

    Thank you for this opportunity!
     
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  11. 2nd Timothy Group

    2nd Timothy Group Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 5:13, 16 NIV - "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. ... 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

    The footnotes of the NIV refer to this "flesh" as the "State of Sinful Man." When a person possesses the Indwelling Spirit, it is because the Sinful Nature has been cut away by Christ. Therefore, that person cannot fulfill the lusts of the Sinful Nature if it remains. However, that person must still contend with their habits and the their evil ways. We will begin to change, but we will not fulfill the desires that only come from the Sinful Mind of the Devil, for that Mind has been replaced with the Mind of Christ, which is what it means to share in the Divine Nature of Christ (2Peter 1:4).

    That Sin Nature being cut out is the focal point of the Entire Bible. Without this act of Christ, the Bible cannot and will not make any sense.

    Thanks again for the chance to clarify things . . . even in my own mind.
     
  12. Gideons300

    Gideons300 Well-Known Member

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  13. Gideons300

    Gideons300 Well-Known Member

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    I so appreciate your spirit concerning this discussion, for you are right, this is a critical piece of the puzzle and I fear that, for many, we have either neglected its importance or erred in our understanding of holiness and how it works in our walks.

    I make this statement, fully realizing the boldness of my words and simply ask that readers bear with me as I explain what God has shown me. What I am about to share here is a radical departure from our current take on holiness, yet want to share it because fourteen years ago, at my lowest, the Lord appeared to me and shared with me what I will try to share with you. In those fourteen years, His words of instruction have proven to be true, and if God can take the mess that I was and proven Himself fully capable of changing and freeing me from the grip of satan, then He can do it for the weakest here among us. Bottom line? It works.

    First, it is important to come to a firm understanding of what "not sinning" actually means regarding holiness. It does not mean that one has arrived, or that all the fruits of the Spirit, the personality of Christ, are exhibited in our lives. It isxsimply the absence of the negative....willful disobedience.

    Consider. Is it possible to be angry and not sin? Absolutely. The Word tells us such, very clearly. If I am driving on the interstate with my family, and an aggressive driver threatens us and purposely cuts us off, almost causing a wreck, I may be angry and even have a few choice words for him, lol. Have I sinned? Not yet. Now, the impulse might be to get even, but the Spirit of God checks me. I decidecto obey and let it go. No sin. None. However, if, after being convicted by the Holy Spirit to forgive and drive on, I then disobey, now I have sinned. Make sense?

    As well, in the same way, sin is not having bad thoughts. Satan can inject bad thoughts in our minds daily, and indeed does. The question is, what do we do with them? Do we claim ownership of them, believing them to come from within us, or do we recognize satan's fishing lure, reject the thought as not from us, and walk on? If, however, we embrace the thought as OUR thought, play with it, embellish it, or act on it. our shield of faith is down and we are in for a fall. Our reaction to the thought determines whether or not we are sinning.

    I do not want to overload you with things, so this first post will simply emphasize what sin is, and what sin isn't for a child of God. satan has so messed us up with misunderstanding in this area, that it is no wonder that most have completely given up on ever walking in victory over sin. But hopefully, you can see that with the correct mindset, victory looks a lot more possible than previously, amen?

    More to come.

    blessings,

    Gids
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  14. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    I can't remember whether I have made comment to this thread before. Forgive me if I am repeating myself. :)

    The way I see it is that when Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, the whole debt of sin to God was paid by Him. He spent three hours on the cross bearing the penalty of the eternal wrath of God for the sin of the whole world. This is remarkable in that the never-ending, eternal wrath of God that would have come on every person in the world since Adam was borne by Jesus in just three hours on the cross. Then He cried out, "It is finished! The debt has been paid!" and gave up His spirit to the Father.

    What this means to us who have received Christ is that in that three hours He became sin for us so that we can become the righteousness of God in Him. Our debt document was nailed to the cross with Jesus, and did not come with Him when He rose from the dead. The paperwork stayed in the grave, left behind at the resurrection of Christ. This means that we don't have a sin-debt to God any more. There is no guilt or penalty for sin. It is as if we were found guilty in court and need to pay a fine of millions of dollars, and yet are set free because someone else came and paid the whole debt for us.

    But we still have sin with us in our fleshly bodies. The Scripture says that the soul that sins will die, and the wages of sin is death. This means that our fleshly bodies are condemned to death, but our new heart and spirit will rise with Christ when He comes again. In the meantime, we live in the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit within us works to develop our walk in the Spirit as we progressively forsake the works of the flesh (as listed in Galatians 5).

    We are always going to have a battle with our flesh. The Scripture says that the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit fights against the flesh. In Romans 7 this is Paul's constant battle, and in Romans 8 he declares that it is Christ within who always gives him the victory having set him free from the law of sin and death, and there is no condemnation for those in Christ. This means that if we fall off the sanctification wagon, we have 1 John 1:9 to ensure that we are kept clean from all unrighteousness.

    The outcome of all this is that we can happily and freely fellowship with and serve the Lord as if we have no sin to hinder our walk with Him. So there is a dichotomy in us. On on side we acknowledge that we have sin because the truth is in us, and on the other side we are born again of the Spirit of God and therefore cannot sin. What this means in practice is that we are conscious of the presence of sin in our flesh, but we hate it, desire not to have it, and do all we can to discipline our fleshly bodies to keep away from the works and lusts of the flesh.

    This is the characteristic of a genuine believer in Christ. He hates sin, wishes it wasn't there as an albatross around his neck, mourns that he falls off the sanctification wagon so often, treats his sinfulness as an unwelcome invader, and prays often that his 'thorn in the flesh' be removed from him, and is reminded that God's grace is sufficient for him. He then takes revenge against the devil who constantly tempts him, by winning as many souls to Christ as he can to do as much damage to the kingdom of darkness as he can, and takes joy and pleasure at frustrating the devil at every turn.
     
  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @Paul Christensen So much is indeed wrapped up in the words of the Lord Jesus "It is finished" (John 19.3). At the same time, the believing pilgrim must take up his or her cross daily (Luke 9.23), and follow the Master.
     
  16. 2nd Timothy Group

    2nd Timothy Group Well-Known Member

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    Nice! I'm actually one of those guys that would love to hear the entire story. To date, I've yet to ever speak with a person who has undergone a genuine Romans 12:2 experience.

    Question: how do you feel about Col 2:9-15? In this passage set, it says that Satan has been defeated in the life of a person who has received the Holy Operation of Christ. If Satan is defeated in the life of a True Believer, how could Satan still impose an effect?

    I would say that at this point, we're dealing with old habits that are in the process of being Sanctified from that believers mind . . . not the Heart, because the Heart has been replaced with a New, and Purified Heart, made perfect by the Hands of Christ. And also, because we know what sin is, our awareness of it (on its own accord) has an allure to it, especially if we have fallen victim to it in the past. The best example? Sex with many different women. That concept of enjoying the greatest of liberties is mighty tough to choose, "Yeah . . . I don't find women to be attractive anymore." Whew . . . that's like saying on Monday I love asparagus, but come Tuesday, now I hate it!

    We can't help the fact that we love chocolate, or ice-cream, and how much more difficult is it to say that a person now hates them?

    I appreciate your desire to calm, rational conversation. Anything other this is a major turn-off . . . to see Christians biting at each other. Makes me run the other way.
     
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  17. Gideons300

    Gideons300 Well-Known Member

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    Next. Is sanctification, being progressive, and it is, like you said it.... sinning less and less? No, for sanctification is the dying to the power of sin ONCE, and then watching the development of our Spirit man slowly but surely changed from glory to glory into the likeness of Christ. Getting free from the power of sin is God freeing us from the negative so He can start growing inside us, the positive. We cannot kill self, no matter how much we try. BUT, we can accept our death as present fact.

    We are not as the old story tells us, with both a black dog and a white dog battling inside us. We are, as His children, pure white dogs, housed in fleshly bodies that still want, at times, to sin and seek pleasure. It is critical we understand this. God tells us we are dead, the old us is DEAD. Not dying a bit more every day.

    Sanctification is not (please note my error here, I left out the not, and it is important) changing after many year from 80% us and 20% God into 50% us and 50% God. We must have a starting point of being brand new, totally clean. As His children, we have made our tree good, not by our efforts but by a radal act of faith. We cannot grow from flesh to spirit. Yes, we have fleshly bodies, but this is so important we get this, we are NOT fleshly natured. This is why Paul tells us in Romans 8 that we are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit, and owe the flesh NOTHING. Glory!

    In my own walk, for 38 years I tried to wrestle my flesh under control, but the harder I tried, the more it resisted. At the point of giving up fourteen years ago, God came to me miraculously and showed me my error. Yes, I died when Christ died. Yes, I rose to newness of life when Christ rose from the dead.

    This then begs the question. If I truly am dead, why do I still fall to sin's temptations? Do I need to die more? Or is my death to be 'a little more dead every day', lol? No! I miised totally God's critical instruction Paul gave us.

    "Therefore, reckon yourself dead to sin and alive unto God"

    Romans 6:6

    This is the source of our error, and the point we are now being awakened to how to live a life of victory.
    You see, when we are told by the Lord, to put off and to put on, this is our grabbing hold of the truth that we are dead to sin and now...right now, this very minute, new creatures.

    Satan never stops tempting or accusing. It is his 'modus operandii', lol. But we are told that if we hold up our shield of faith, his arrows will not harm us.... ever. What is that shield of faith? Our testimony that we really are new creatures. Therefore, when a temptation comes.... let's say to look at porn (i have great experience here, lol), in the past I would be tempted, embrace that it came from MY heart and my goose is already cooked. My shield of faith is down, right?

    In Revelations, we are told thst in the last days, the saints will overcome the enemy by a) the blood of the lamb..... check.... and.... AND.... the word of OUR testimony! Do you see it? We ARE new creatures, right now, this very minute. BUT, this truth only profits us when we believe it. Whoa. When we arm ourselves with this truth, stand against the accusations and temptations in faith that we are not trying to be new by our efforts, we ARE new creatures right now by an already completed changes EVERYTHING.

    This is what God has shown me is about to happen. His church started off with the early rain... alive, on fire, for His children knew who they were and their shields were up. Sin did not taint their relationship. But the early rain ended, and for almost 19 years the church, although still breathing, was ever full of overflowing life.Dry bones that were once clothed with life. But, praise God, the DNA is atill in those bones and they are about to LIVE!

    Our division, confusion, fleshliness, lukewarmness, bickering, lack of love for one another, and yes, our propensity to yield to sin even when God provides a way of escape, they are all about to change as the final latter reign is soon to begin.

    What will trigger this cataclysmically wonderful event in each of our walks and in the church corporately? ? Our re-awakening to who we are, new creatures, and when that happens, and our shields of faith are raised high that just like Jesus, satan has NOTHING in us, no hold whatsoever. That, dear friends, is what being an overcomer looks like.

    God Himself does what He has always promised to do. He will be the one to keep us from sinning. He will CAUSE US to walk always choosing obedience. Some rail against this as blasphemy, so entrenched we are in self-effort. But listen to this verse in Ezekiel 36 where God lays out directly what His New Covenant will do for us.

    "
    Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

    Ezekiel 36:25-27

    Here, on the highway of holiness, weakness is a strength, because the weak one looks to Christ IN US to do the keeping.

    Amazing God.

    More to come.....

    blessings,

    Gideon
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  18. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    Yep! It is called walking in the Spirit, or walking in the light as Jesus is in the light.
     
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  19. Gideons300

    Gideons300 Well-Known Member

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    I guess now might be a good time to share exactly what happened to me now fourteen years ago.

    Every word of this testimony is truth and happened just as written. I pray it blesses you.

    Gids


    My Miraculous Visitation



    I was saved by a true miracle on Christmas Eve, 1970. Having been a porn addict since I was an early teen, and then finally saved 21, I had high hopes that my addiction would be a thing of the past. I was wrong. For the next 3 and a half decades, I was the poster boy for Romans 7. I hated my sin. I loved my sin. Sound familiar with your walk?

    Oh, I did not go down swinging. I tried everything I knew to finally walk as I knew deep inside a God wanted me to. I prayed, I fasted, I memorized large portions of the Word. I became a home pastor in my large Charismatic church. But in the end, my undefeated addiction just left me angry, judgmental, legalistic, disillusioned and tired of life. And dog tired of failing the God who loved me.

    One night, I reached my end. I literally had nothing else that I knew of to try, to hope for, that would perhaps lead me to the ‘free indeed’ I saw so clearly promised in His Word. In tears and desperation, I cried out to God, not knowing what else to do. I had no more answers, no more new things to try, no more resolutions to make, no more leaves to turn over. And then it happened. God appeared to me. Yes, visibly.

    LOL, I can see the eye-rolls now. And before any asks what He looked like, let me say this. I haven’t a clue. His golden light, brighter than the sun, put me on my face. I dared not look up. Fear, awe, joy and shame all overtook me at the same time. And then He spoke. Yes, audibly.

    He said:

    “My son, for this I am well pleased with you.”

    Confused? LOL. Yeah, me too. For 38 years, I had tried desperately to feel like God not only loved me but was pleased with me as well. But no matter what Paul told us in Romans 8 that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, it was almost all I ever felt. Guilt, failure and condemnation. If I gave, even out of my lack, I should have given more. If I read ten chapters in the Word, it should have been twenty. Even mowing my own lawn made me feel like I was taking care of my kingdom, not His. Can you say ‘miserable’? That was me.

    And now, at my lowest point of failure, admitting my powerlessness and hating my life, now He comes and tells me He was pleased with me? Now?? It made no sense, none, until the next words He spoke....

    “I knew all along that you could not walk the walk I had for you, but you did not yetknow it.”

    Did you catch that key word…. yet?☺️ You see, I finally knew it. I had finally, after almost four decades of trying to die to my sin-loving self, been brought to the point I had NO confidence in the flesh that was my prison. It was inescapable.

    But the Lord did not stop there. He continued, asking me a question....

    “In all your efforts to walk pleasing to me, did you ever do as I instructed you to do through my servant Paul?”

    My mind reeled, wondering what He was referring to. But then, in an instant, He simply took my blinders off and let me see what He was talking about. The key to my cell door swinging open was found in Romans 6. And as I opened my Bible, I sat dumbfounded at the secret, the key to my being able to walk as an overcomer that had been hiding from me all those years, all while it was in plain sight.

    Here in Romans 6, Paul tells us that there are two truths we must know.

    1) When Christ died, so DID we.

    2) When Christ rose from the dead, so DID we.

    I can hear them now. “That’s it?? That’s the secret?” LOL. Not yet. What did Paul tell us next? What was the instruction he asked of us concerning these two truths that were etched in the stone foundations of Heaven?

    Likewise (in the same way) reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

    but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    Romans 6:10-13

    I pray your ears are open. He gave us instructions…. Something to DO. Our God tells us…Hear this truth, embrace it as YOUR truth, do not let go of it, and I promise you, your walk will never be the same, for this is the path to FREE INDEED.

    You see, I had memorized these verses. I knew Romans 6-8 were profound chapters and had to hold the secret to victory that I had long sought. But..... never, not once..... had I actually done what those words from the Lord had been telling me to DO. I had never reckoned that those two truths were MY truths. I had never appropriated the victory He had bought for us as MY victory. I always hoped for those results, but hope is not faith. Faith calls those things that are not as though they are. Faith, real genuine faith, must always be NOW faith.

    So what did I do? Through my tears, my awe, my joy, my shaking knees, I spoke. Out loud. LOUDLY out loud. I reckoned that the old me was dead. Not needing to die. DEAD. I reckoned that I was a brand new creature with a brand new heart, a heart that sin had no authority over. I died to sin once...ONCE.... just as God had instructed us.

    And having done so, praise God, I yielded myself to God, but this time I did it differently. Previously, I would try to give myself to God, but as the mess, the failure, the worm that I knew I was.

    But that is not what God asked for, was it? He said that we are to, now, because of what Christ had accomplished for us, yield ourselves to God in faith, faith that what He said was true was true for US, right now, this very day. We are to yield ourselves as those who are alive from the dead. Whoa. No more worm. Butterfly!

    And when I did, something deep inside began bubbling up inside me. Joy. Freedom. God caused my faith that had laid there as an small but all-sufficient seed of God’s nature in me, to begin sprouting. Why? I had finally held up my shield of faith and, praise God, what I found was that satan’s arrows truly were extinguished. I tasted freedom that night for the first time, and it was.... and is.... glorious.

    This is not sinless perfectionism of which I constantly share. It is truly the beginning of the sanctification process, not the end. I have far, far to go in my walk with the Lord. I pray the lack and weaknesses others still see in me do not hinder their belief that God can set them free as well. But I would be remiss if I did not also tell you that the changes that He has brought about in me stagger even my imagination as to what God has done by dwelling IN me by faith.

    I have much more to share concerning the last thirteen years. I pray God continues to give me opportunity to share with you what He continues to show me and to teach me. Thank you all for bearing with this long testimony.

    Know this. Your weakness, your addiction to sin.... they are actually a gift from God. I can hear you laughing, lol. But I am quite serious. Who is it that can believe such amazing things? The desperate man. The man who has no strength, and KNOWS IT. The man who has come to the point that he has NO confidence in the flesh. The one who has come to the blessed point that he HATES his life.

    What God has shown me He is now showing you. This walk of victory over the world and its endless pull, the flesh and its lusts and unbounded self-love, and the devil and his endless temptations and accusations, it is your birthright, already purchased, already given. Your weakness is not the hinderance you have thought it was. It is your key to crossing over from the wilderness to the land of promise. You see, your awareness of your fallen nature and your absolute inability to ever overcome it are what make you perfectly fit to receive it. Glory!

    Can our God be THAT good? Oh, yes dear brothers and sisters! Can He truly set us free indeed, despite our weakness, our past sins, our addictions? There is no doubt about it. Our God’s goodness is stronger than our badness and it is high time we get our eyes off of our insufficiency and onto His ability to turn those with no strength into overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil himself.

    God is about to do a work in our day that if our eyes did not see it, we would never believe it. He is going to separate the wheat from the tares, and prepare His own for our soon-coming wedding. Are you tired of going through the motions, feeling deep down you are missing something? Then buckle up, for God is about to blow your mind and fill your heart to overflowing with the joy of your FULL salvation.

    Blessings to all.

    Gideon
     
    2nd Timothy Group likes this.
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