Is it biblical for Jesus' followers to approve of the military practice?

[Axehead]

According to the New Testament:

1 Peter 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

It was God who instituted these governments to do His will so that criminals would be punished. It is the government who established law enforcement. When an enemy invades a country, the government has ever right to use military force to punish the enemy. It is the government who established a military.

Hi Selene,

I thought Meshak was talking about the Church, not the worldly government. What was the posture of the Early Church toward occupiers of their homeland?

to kill for a good reason would be like stealing to give to the poor, we have a commandment to love one another.what ifs are fleshly fears.keep his love and he will keep us

Jesus' followers just dont love their loves one or their friends. Jesus commands us to love your enemy too.

There is no place for violence for Jesus' followers.

Jesus' followers are not of this world. You should come out of the world to be faithful to Jesus.

blessings.

According to the New Testament:

1 Peter 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

So it was ok for German Christian to kill Jews because their Hitler, government says so? I dont think so. but I know German Christians did though.

Not only that, German Christians killed French and American Christians and vice-versa. The Church is brainwashed into using the arm of the flesh to fight worldly battles.

 

[KCKID]

The war or invasion of this world because it is political. This thread is about Christians in the military.

No it isn't. This thread is about whether or not Christians are to approve (as per the Bible) of miltary practice. It's my understanding that an overwhelming number of Christians approve of the so-called "War on Terror" even though many thousands of those killed had NOTHING to do with that piece of BS propaganda.

 

[Axehead]

I said that God instituted the government. The government is supposed to follow God's will, but we know they don't always do that because the government is run by people who don't always follow God's will. Makes sense?? According to the Bible, the government is supposed to punish criminals and even those who invade their country (which in this case would be self-defense). Governments can also help other countries, and that is within God's will.

The will of God may be to raise up a horrible person. Actually, Governments do the will of God whether they know they are doing it or not. Nothing happens that catches God by surprise. The will of God may be something that you don't think is very nice. Wasn't the will of God to have Jesus crucified? What good could come out of that, His disciples thought. Why was it the will of God that Israel was under Roman occupation at the time?

Doesn't the Bible say that promotion does not come from the East or West but from the hand of the Lord and that it is God that raises up kings? Of course it does. Anyway, the will of God in this world is a bigger topic. We know He raised up Babylon to invade Israel and take them captive.

Back to the OP. Who is our example in this world.

Well, we have the Apostles and Jesus.

Php_3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

1Pe_2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Personally, I think a Christian can be in the military. There are many jobs in the military that a person could engage in without killing. We are all taxpayers and our taxes pay for the military and other things you probably don't even want to know about. So we are killing (by extension) by supporting financially our military with our taxes. I know, Jesus gave us an out on that one. He knew we would all be locked up if we did not pay Caesar so He gave us permission to do that and then led by example.

I have 3 Jewish friends who are Believers in Yeshua and they felt the Lord was leading them back to Israel. We were all in our 20s then and they knew they would have to join the Army so they all became cooks.

The Lord will allow North Korea to wage war if He wants to, He will allow Iran and other countries to wage war on Israel if that is His will. I think each of us need to really hear the Lord in this day concerning His will for us, personally. His predetermined purposes include a lot of pain. I know that is hard to believe, but if you have read the Bible lately, you will understand.

I have read stories that in the Early Church they would not let soldiers who waged war worship with them. I think we are all about to get some schooling from the Lord in the days ahead regarding all these theoretical subjects that we talk about so expertly.

Axehead

 

[meshak]

No it isn't. This thread is about whether or not Christians are to approve (as per the Bible) of miltary practice. It's my understanding that an overwhelming number of Christians approve of the so-called "War on Terror" even though many thousands of those killed had NOTHING to do with that piece of BS propaganda.

That's why I have this thread because Christians who are in the violent activity are misrepresenting Jesus big time. Jesus is not prince of violence. He is prince of peace.

BTW, what is not? please elaborate.

blessings.

I said that God instituted the government. The government is supposed to follow God's will, but we know they don't always do that because the government is run by people who don't always follow God's will. Makes sense?? According to the Bible, the government is supposed to punish criminals and even those who invade their country (which in this case would be self-defense). Governments can also help other countries, and that is within God's will.

God instituted the government for the world, not for His people..

 

[KCKID]

That's why I have this thread because Christians who are in the violent activity are misrepresenting Jesus big time. Jesus is not prince of violence. He is prince of peace.

BTW, what is not? please elaborate.

You said, "This thread is about Christians in the military. I said, "No it isn't" meaning that your thread title says nothing about Christians actually serving in the miltary but about their approving of miltary action and such being opposed to the teaching of Jesus. In any event, I believe that you and I are on the same side regarding this topic at least.

As for Christians serving in the military. That's a difficult one because to NOT serve having been ordered to do so by the government would make life very unpleasant for the 'conscientious objector'. You can read some of the horror stories about those conscientious objectors (both in the U.S. and here in Australia) who refused to serve in the Vietnam War in the 1960s. I don't even think that these people were necessarily Christians. They just didn't believe in killing fellow human beings. They were tarred with being unpatriotic, cowards, etc. etc. and were generally spurned by those who had far less guts than they did. These COs had principles and were willing to stand by them, whatever the cost.

 

[meshak]

You said, "This thread is about Christians in the military. I said, "No it isn't" meaning that your thread title says nothing about Christians actually serving in the miltary but about their approving of miltary action and such being opposed to the teaching of Jesus. In any event, I believe that you and I are on the same side regarding this topic at least.

Yes, it is about Christians in the military if it is biblical or not.

 

[KCKID]

Yes, it is about Christians in the military if it is biblical or not.

I don't think that we have to look to the Bible to find out whether or not something is morally reprehensible. If we do need the Bible to do so then we certainly have a problem with simply being a human being with morals, the ability to think, to reason, etc. all on our own In fact, let us shut up the Bible for a while. Killing another human being is reprehensible, ESPECIALLY in regard to the present supposed War on Terror, Bible or no Bible!

 

[meshak]

I don't think that we have to look to the Bible to find out whether or not something is morally reprehensible. If we do need the Bible to do so then we certainly have a problem with simply being a human being with morals, the ability to think, to reason, etc. all on our own In fact, let us shut up the Bible for a while. Killing another human being is reprehensible, ESPECIALLY in regard to the present supposed War on Terror, Bible or no Bible!

This is Christian forum and it is all about Jesus' standards which is Christian moral standards.

Jesus' followers have no business criticizing the world.

 

[KCKID]

This is Christian forum and it is all about Jesus' standards which is Christian moral standards.

Jesus' followers have no business criticizing the world.

But, one does not need to know anything about the Bible or Jesus to abhor the killing of another human being. One does not believe in killing because it's seared into their conscience, regardless of what Jesus might have said. I don't even like the idea of animals being killed to provide food for us. That makes me a hypocrite because I eat meat and therefore support those who DO kill animals. I find the very word 'kill' to be repulsive. This is why I question VERY strongly the God of the Old Testament, no matter how many Christians make up excuses for God's tyrannical outbursts that resulted in the destruction of many thousands of people. Give me Jesus any time. I can relate to Him.

 

[meshak]

But, one does not need to know anything about the Bible or Jesus to abhor the killing of another human being. One does not believe in killing because it's seared into their conscience, regardless of what Jesus might have said. I don't even like the idea of animals being killed to provide food for us. That makes me a hypocrite because I eat meat and therefore support those who DO kill animals. I find the very word 'kill' to be repulsive. This is why I question VERY strongly the God of the Old Testament, no matter how many Christians make up excuses for God's tyrannical outbursts that resulted in the destruction of many thousands of people. Give me Jesus any time. I can relate to Him.

Ok, but this thread is about Christians.

blessings.

 

[veteran]

Why not? According to your interpretation they should because their government is telling them to kill their enemy. They are just obeying Government. There are Christians all over the world, even in your enemy's countries. You seem to ignore that conveniently.

It is fact that many German Christians were in Hitler's military. I know Christians dont want to talk about it.

You're the one with the ignorant confusion against people's God-given right to self-defense, and ignorance of history. You're obviously another unlearned individual that's been subjected to today's dumbing down standards from today's liberal school systems.

The persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany didn't just begin after the creation of an army. It began politically when Hitler slowly came to power and created a 'specific' brown-shirt force of thugs that did his personal bidding, even BEFORE his brainwashing of many of the German people to turn against Jews. And to show that not all the German people agreed with him, some of them tried to assassinate Hitler, but failed. Hitler was not ONLY a tyrant against Jews and undesirables, but even against many of the German people!

What about Japanese-Americans that were moved to camps by the U.S. government during WWII? Did you know the U.S. government still allowed Japanese-American men to serve in the U.S. Army in the Italian campaigns? So here was the U.S. government fighting Hitler and Hirihito who were trying to take over the world, and they encamped Japanese-American families. It was because of 'fear'. A similar type of fear that many of the German people also experienced for not going along with Hitler's third reich.

This is Christian forum and it is all about Jesus' standards which is Christian moral standards.

Jesus' followers have no business criticizing the world.

No, YOU are trying to CHANGE the moral standards which Christ Jesus taught, because you refuse to recognize His command to His disciples in Luke 22 to go buy a sword for those who didn't have one that could afford one.

You've come here to push your PERSONAL anti-military, anti-self defense, anti-arms POLITICAL AGENDA. And may God REBUKE you for trying to use His Word to do that with.

 

[Selene]

.


God instituted the government for the world, not for His people..

The fact that it was instituted by God is good enough, and he instituted it also for His people. He is not going to leave them defenseless. God always uses people as His instrument even if it's to protect His people from mass slaughter.

The will of God may be to raise up a horrible person. Actually, Governments do the will of God whether they know they are doing it or not. Nothing happens that catches God by surprise. The will of God may be something that you don't think is very nice. Wasn't the will of God to have Jesus crucified? What good could come out of that, His disciples thought. Why was it the will of God that Israel was under Roman occupation at the time?

Doesn't the Bible say that promotion does not come from the East or West but from the hand of the Lord and that it is God that raises up kings? Of course it does. Anyway, the will of God in this world is a bigger topic. We know He raised up Babylon to invade Israel and take them captive.

Back to the OP. Who is our example in this world.

Well, we have the Apostles and Jesus.

Php_3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

1Pe_2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Personally, I think a Christian can be in the military. There are many jobs in the military that a person could engage in without killing. We are all taxpayers and our taxes pay for the military and other things you probably don't even want to know about. So we are killing (by extension) by supporting financially our military with our taxes. I know, Jesus gave us an out on that one. He knew we would all be locked up if we did not pay Caesar so He gave us permission to do that and then led by example.

I have 3 Jewish friends who are Believers in Yeshua and they felt the Lord was leading them back to Israel. We were all in our 20s then and they knew they would have to join the Army so they all became cooks.

The Lord will allow North Korea to wage war if He wants to, He will allow Iran and other countries to wage war on Israel if that is His will. I think each of us need to really hear the Lord in this day concerning His will for us, personally. His predetermined purposes include a lot of pain. I know that is hard to believe, but if you have read the Bible lately, you will understand.

I have read stories that in the Early Church they would not let soldiers who waged war worship with them. I think we are all about to get some schooling from the Lord in the days ahead regarding all these theoretical subjects that we talk about so expertly.

Axehead

It is not in God's will for us to sin. We sin because we have the choice to do good or bad. And if we choose to do bad things, God allows it not because it was His will. He allows it because He respects our freedom to choose despite the fact that He does not like our sins.

As for the death of Christ. Christ chose to die for us, and God allowed it to happen because He knows that from His death will come man's salvation. Only God can derive something good from something that is evil.....but for what it's worth....an evil is still an evil. In other words, killing an innocent man is still evil, but God allowed it to happen. And even Christ volunteered and gave Himself to us so that we would be redeemed.

 

[meshak]

The fact that it was instituted by God is good enough, and he instituted it also for His people. He is not going to leave them defenseless. God always uses people as His instrument even if it's to protect His people from mass slaughter.



It is not in God's will for us to sin. We sin because we have the choice to do good or bad. And if we choose to do bad things, God allows it not because it was His will. He allows it because He respects our freedom to choose despite the fact that He does not like our sins.

As for the death of Christ. Christ chose to die for us, and God allowed it to happen because He knows that from His death will come man's salvation. Only God can derive something good from something that is evil.....but for what it's worth....an evil is still an evil. In other words, killing an innocent man is still evil, but God allowed it to happen. And even Christ volunteered and gave Himself to us so that we would be redeemed.

I guess you are of this world because the government is of this world. My Lord is Jesus, not any government. We need to come out of this world if we want to be with Jesus.

You're the one with the ignorant confusion against people's God-given right to self-defense, and ignorance of history. You're obviously another unlearned individual that's been subjected to today's dumbing down standards from today's liberal school systems.

The persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany didn't just begin after the creation of an army. It began politically when Hitler slowly came to power and created a 'specific' brown-shirt force of thugs that did his personal bidding, even BEFORE his brainwashing of many of the German people to turn against Jews. And to show that not all the German people agreed with him, some of them tried to assassinate Hitler, but failed. Hitler was not ONLY a tyrant against Jews and undesirables, but even against many of the German people!

What about Japanese-Americans that were moved to camps by the U.S. government during WWII? Did you know the U.S. government still allowed Japanese-American men to serve in the U.S. Army in the Italian campaigns? So here was the U.S. government fighting Hitler and Hirihito who were trying to take over the world, and they encamped Japanese-American families. It was because of 'fear'. A similar type of fear that many of the German people also experienced for not going along with Hitler's third reich.



No, YOU are trying to CHANGE the moral standards which Christ Jesus taught, because you refuse to recognize His command to His disciples in Luke 22 to go buy a sword for those who didn't have one that could afford one.

You've come here to push your PERSONAL anti-military, anti-self defense, anti-arms POLITICAL AGENDA. And may God REBUKE you for trying to use His Word to do that with.

Jesus is not war monger. He is peace of prince, not prince of violent.

You should not continue on with violent faith like your mother church RCC. You should come out of it like Jesus says. You are brain washed by your churches who need their members to keep their organization going.

The fact that it was instituted by God is good enough, and he instituted it also for His people. He is not going to leave them defenseless. God always uses people as His instrument even if it's to protect His people from mass slaughter.



It is not in God's will for us to sin. We sin because we have the choice to do good or bad. And if we choose to do bad things, God allows it not because it was His will. He allows it because He respects our freedom to choose despite the fact that He does not like our sins.

As for the death of Christ. Christ chose to die for us, and God allowed it to happen because He knows that from His death will come man's salvation. Only God can derive something good from something that is evil.....but for what it's worth....an evil is still an evil. In other words, killing an innocent man is still evil, but God allowed it to happen. And even Christ volunteered and gave Himself to us so that we would be redeemed.

Going against Jesus' word is sin, dear. Jesus says to love your enemy, not to kill them. Violence is opposite of what Jesus wants us to be.

 

[Axehead]

The fact that it was instituted by God is good enough, and he instituted it also for His people. He is not going to leave them defenseless. God always uses people as His instrument even if it's to protect His people from mass slaughter.

With all due respect, what planet are you living on? Jesus said, "Do not fear him who can kill the body, but not the soul." Christians have been left "defenseless" and been slaughtered through the centuries. Jesus is with us to the end does not mean that nothing evil will happen to our physical bodies.

It is not in God's will for us to sin. We sin because we have the choice to do good or bad. And if we choose to do bad things, God allows it not because it was His will. He allows it because He respects our freedom to choose despite the fact that He does not like our sins.

As for the death of Christ. Christ chose to die for us, and God allowed it to happen because He knows that from His death will come man's salvation. Only God can derive something good from something that is evil.....but for what it's worth....an evil is still an evil. In other words, killing an innocent man is still evil, but God allowed it to happen. And even Christ volunteered and gave Himself to us so that we would be redeemed.

Act_9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

Rom_8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

 

[veteran]

Two wasy to look at Christ's admonition for us to NOT fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul.

One is the Pacifist weak useless view of not even trying to defend yourself from a murderer, and forget trying defend others who aren't able too. That view is NOT Biblical. Just because our Lord Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified does NOT mean He expects us to do the same. We are not Christs.

The proper Biblical view is to "Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow." (Isaiah 1:17). And how does that commandment to "relieve the oppressed" fit with what our Lord Jesus said abouit not fearing those who can kill our body?

It means to make a STAND for what is right in God's eyes, defend and fight for the oppressed, the fatherless, the widow, not fearing death!

What Paul quoted from Psalms 44 in Romans 8 about being sheep led to slaughter was a complaint in the Psalms to God, His peope being killed because of forgetting Him, and a petition for His help. Now what kind of help would that be for their slaughter to be turned around into strength? Their being able to DEFEAT their enemies by God's Hand!


Ps 44:1-11
1 We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, what work Thou didst in their days, in the times of old.
2 How Thou didst drive out the heathen with Thy hand, and plantedst them; how Thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.
3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but Thy right hand, and Thine arm, and the light of Thy countenance, because Thou hadst a favour unto them.
4 Thou art my King, O God: command deliverances for Jacob.
5 Through Thee will we push down our enemies: through Thy name will we tread them under that rise up against us.
6 For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.
7 But Thou hast saved us from our enemies, and hast put them to shame that hated us.
8 In God we boast all the day long, and praise Thy name for ever. Selah.
9 But Thou hast cast off, and put us to shame; and goest not forth with our armies.
10 Thou makest us to turn back from the enemy: and they which hate us spoil for themselves.
11 Thou hast given us like sheep appointed for meat; and hast scattered us among the heathen.
(KJV)

 

[Axehead]

Two wasy to look at Christ's admonition for us to NOT fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul.

One is the Pacifist weak useless view of not even trying to defend yourself from a murderer, and forget trying defend others who aren't able too. That view is NOT Biblical. Just because our Lord Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified does NOT mean He expects us to do the same. We are not Christs.

The proper Biblical view is to "Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow." (Isaiah 1:17). And how does that commandment to "relieve the oppressed" fit with what our Lord Jesus said abouit not fearing those who can kill our body?

It means to make a STAND for what is right in God's eyes, defend and fight for the oppressed, the fatherless, the widow, not fearing death!

What Paul quoted from Psalms 44 in Romans 8 about being sheep led to slaughter was a complaint in the Psalms to God, His peope being killed because of forgetting Him, and a petition for His help. Now what kind of help would that be for their slaughter to be turned around into strength? Their being able to DEFEAT their enemies by God's Hand!


Ps 44:1-11
1 We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, what work Thou didst in their days, in the times of old.
2 How Thou didst drive out the heathen with Thy hand, and plantedst them; how Thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.
3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but Thy right hand, and Thine arm, and the light of Thy countenance, because Thou hadst a favour unto them.
4 Thou art my King, O God: command deliverances for Jacob.
5 Through Thee will we push down our enemies: through Thy name will we tread them under that rise up against us.
6 For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.
7 But Thou hast saved us from our enemies, and hast put them to shame that hated us.
8 In God we boast all the day long, and praise Thy name for ever. Selah.
9 But Thou hast cast off, and put us to shame; and goest not forth with our armies.
10 Thou makest us to turn back from the enemy: and they which hate us spoil for themselves.
11 Thou hast given us like sheep appointed for meat; and hast scattered us among the heathen.
(KJV)

Does Christ dwell in you, veteran? You are right that we are not Christ, there is only one, but does He dwell in you and will He be contrary to His nature and to His words to us?

Truly this is a difficult subject, I grant you that. I definitely would defend my family and others. Meshak is talking about military service and fighting this world's battles. Where does one draw the line? Because, when it comes to defending the defenseless, you could spend your whole lifetime fighting this world's wars in the name of Jesus Christ. In fact, the Church could become quite militaristic and fight Christians in other countries who are part of their country's army. Where does the madness end?

Do you feel the Church is not militaristic enough? Do you feel every Christian has an obligation to join the military? Do you give any leeway at all to those who out of conscience do not believe the Lord is leading them to kill others in the name of God?

Pacifism is what Ghandi and Martin Luther King were all about. They rebelled against the authorities with protests, sit-ins, work stoppage, etc. This is pacifism. Pacifism "peacefully' undermines the government. This is not what Christ taught. Christ lived and taught Non-Resistance.

Please show me where the Early Church took up arms to fight against the Roman occupation of their homeland.

The "church" started fighting and using the arm of the flesh, with the advent of the Catholic church around the 4th century.

Axehead

 

[Selene]

I guess you are of this world because the government is of this world. My Lord is Jesus, not any government. We need to come out of this world if we want to be with Jesus.


Jesus is not war monger. He is peace of prince, not prince of violent.

You should not continue on with violent faith like your mother church RCC. You should come out of it like Jesus says. You are brain washed by your churches who need their members to keep their organization going.


Going against Jesus' word is sin, dear. Jesus says to love your enemy, not to kill them. Violence is opposite of what Jesus wants us to be.

Christ told the Apostles to carry a sword. And why do you mention the RCC?? Why are you putting down my faith? Is that the Christian thing to do.....putting down another Christian?? Don't you know that Jesus told His Apostles to carry a sword? What did you think the sword was for? It was for self-defense.

Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

 

[Axehead]

Christ told the Apostles to carry a sword. And why do you mention the RCC?? Why are you putting down my faith? Is that the Christian thing to do.....putting down another Christian?? Don't you know that Jesus told His Apostles to carry a sword? What did you think the sword was for? It was for self-defense.

Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

I don't know what kind of faith you have, and for that matter I don't talk about your faith. If faith is synonymous with religious organization, then yes I am talking about your religious organization. The Early Church did not participate in armed resistance. That occurred after the beginning of your religious organization and one of your "fathers" (Augustine) postulated the theory of "Just War".


If you don't stop at Luke 22:36 and continue on with the conversation you will understand what Jesus' point was.

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me,

*****And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.***** (Isa 53:12)

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Two swords were not nearly enough for any kind of reasonable defense don't you think? However, two swords were more than enough for Jesus to be "reckoned among the transgressors", and fulfill prophecy. And Peter, became the "transgressor" when he used his sword to cut off the servant of the high priest's ear.

In another place we see that Isa 53:12 was referenced when Jesus was buried between 2 criminals. But, the Holy Spirit through Luke obviously wanted that also noted when Jesus said 2 swords are enough.

When you take the whole counsel of God you get a fuller picture of what is happening, the "whys" and the "wherefores" become clearer.

This is why Jesus said get some swords and then stopped them at two. Did He not say that He could call 12 legions of angels to rescue Him? Then what was up with the swords? To fulfill scripture about Him from Isa 53:12.

Why didn't Jesus ever teach about self defense? Jesus certainly wasn't a Pacifist. He lived and taught Non-resistance which is onerous to the flesh. Pacifism is more like what Ghandi and MLK participated in. Protests, marches, work stoppages, etc. Jesus never taught "peaceful" rebellion to get your way. That is exactly what Pacifism is.

Christians who offer up no resistance to their persecutors are called Pacifists, but this is an incorrect labeling, term. It has become a derogatory term when used against Christians, a term akin to cowardice. There is a huge difference between the teachings of Pacifism and the teaching of Non-Resistance that Jesus taught.

Israel was occupied by an aggressive enemy and yet the Early Church never leaned on the arm of the flesh (as far as I can tell) to fight. Jesus said, "Don't fear the one that can kill the body but not he soul." Are the weapons of our warfare, carnal?

Looks like Augustine's treatise of "Just War", has permeated Protestantism.

Axehead

 

[meshak]

Christ told the Apostles to carry a sword. And why do you mention the RCC?? Why are you putting down my faith? Is that the Christian thing to do.....putting down another Christian?? Don't you know that Jesus told His Apostles to carry a sword? What did you think the sword was for? It was for self-defense.

Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Did He meant to fight against their enemy physically? You cannot find any prove of your claim because Jesus and His disciples did not kill anyone even for self defense, they were killed instead..

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Why dont you examine what RCC, your mother church, did to their enemy. When are you going to learn? Jesus' followers are supposed be persecuted, not persecutors.

Jesus says if you follow Him you will be persecuted.

 

[Selene]

I don't know what kind of faith you have, and for that matter I don't talk about your faith. If faith is synonymous with religious organization, then yes I am talking about your religious organization. The Early Church did not participate in armed resistance. That occurred after the beginning of your religious organization and one of your "fathers" (Augustine) postulated the theory of "Just War".


If you don't stop at Luke 22:36 and continue on with the conversation you will understand what Jesus' point was.

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me,

*****And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.***** (Isa 53:12)

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Two swords were not nearly enough for any kind of reasonable defense don't you think? However, two swords were more than enough for Jesus to be "reckoned among the transgressors", and fulfill prophecy. And Peter, became the "transgressor" when he used his sword to cut off the servant of the high priest's ear.

In another place we see that Isa 53:12 was referenced when Jesus was buried between 2 criminals. But, the Holy Spirit through Luke obviously wanted that also noted when Jesus said 2 swords are enough.

When you take the whole counsel of God you get a fuller picture of what is happening, the "whys" and the "wherefores" become clearer.

This is why Jesus said get some swords and then stopped them at two. Did He not say that He could call 12 legions of angels to rescue Him? Then what was up with the swords? To fulfill scripture about Him from Isa 53:12.

Why didn't Jesus ever teach about self defense? Jesus certainly wasn't a Pacifist. He lived and taught Non-resistance which is onerous to the flesh. Pacifism is more like what Ghandi and MLK participated in. Protests, marches, work stoppages, etc. Jesus never taught "peaceful" rebellion to get your way. That is exactly what Pacifism is.

Christians who offer up no resistance to their persecutors are called Pacifists, but this is an incorrect labeling, term. It has become a derogatory term when used against Christians, a term akin to cowardice. There is a huge difference between the teachings of Pacifism and the teaching of Non-Resistance that Jesus taught.

Israel was occupied by an aggressive enemy and yet the Early Church never leaned on the arm of the flesh (as far as I can tell) to fight. Jesus said, "Don't fear the one that can kill the body but not he soul." Are the weapons of our warfare, carnal?

Looks like Augustine's treatise of "Just War", has permeated Protestantism.

Axehead

Well, I suggest that you quit bashing the Catholic Church.....because that is not a very Christian thing to do.....now is it? Bashing another Christian is very unChristian. Do you see me going around bashing your religion??

As for the biblical verse.....Jesus said to bring A sword. He did not tell His Apostles to bring more than one sword....so yes, that is why Jesus said "It is enough." A person does not need two weapons for self-defense. You only need one. Therefore, because Christ told His Apostles to bring a sword.....then Christ does approve of "self-defense." Otherwise, why instruct His Apostles to bring a sword?

Did He meant to fight against their enemy physically? You cannot find any prove of your claim because Jesus and His disceiples did not kill anyone.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Why dont you examine what RCC, your mother church, did to their enemy. When are you going to learn? Jesus' followers are supposed be persecuted, not persecutors.

Jesus says if you follow Him you will be persecuted.

It does not matter if the Apostles killed anyone or not in self-defense. The FACT is.....and it is stated in the Bible......that Christ TOLD His Apostles to bring a sword. The FACT that Christ told them this is evidence showing that Christ believes in self-defense. Do you have any other reason why Christ told His Apostles to bring a sword??

And also, why are you bringing up the Roman Catholic Church?? I never brought up the Catholic Church. Why is it that every time I cite scripture, you bring up something that happened HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO?? The year today is 2013.